Ketamine Insights

Disclosure is the Antidote to Shame: Ketamine, Community, and Asking for Help

• Molly Dunn & Lynn Schneider • Season 2 • Episode 11

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Lynn and Molly explore the challenges and importance of asking for help with ketamine treatments. They discuss the role of shame in mental illness, the benefits of community support, and practical steps for seeking assistance. With personal stories and specific tips, this episode sheds light on the emotional and logistical aspects of getting the help we need.

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Chapters

00:00 Theme Song and Introduction

01:52 Seeking Community Support to Fund Ketamine Care

04:02 A Cousin's Lasting Impact

05:58 Disclosure as an Antidote to Shame

09:28 Self Reliance as a Trauma Response

10:13 A Community Chips In

13:25 Specific, Amorphous, and Long Term Help

15:21 Ways to Help with Ketamine Care

15:57 Rollerskating in Airports

17:40 The Cost of Ketamine Care in US and Australia

19:50 Sharing What You're Going Through, But Like REALLY

22:39 The Value of a Story

28:40 Setting Expectations When Seeking Support

33:37 We All Know Someone Who Won't Ask for What They Need

35:45 Final Thoughts and Farewell

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[00:00:00] Theme Song: She's sometimes sad, she's sometimes happy. She's doing things to make her life less crappy. Trying a treatment that's new on the scene. Let's sit back and talk about Ketamine. 

Molly: Welcome to ketamine insights, a podcast about mental health and psychedelic medicine from a patient's perspective. I'm excited that Lynn is back again for this episode on asking for help with ketamine treatments.

[00:00:31] We don't publish episodes on a strict schedule. So if you enjoy ketamine insights, please go into your podcast app and subscribe.

[00:00:41] That way you'll be notified every time a new episode comes out. Ketamine insights is meant to be a cumulative podcast. So if you're new here, please listen to season one. First in those first episodes, we explore foundational questions. Like what are the different ways to take therapeutic ketamine? What can I expect when I go in for a ketamine infusion? How do I make the most out of every ketamine experience? And we talk in depth in season one about the two main philosophical approaches to ketamine care. Please take a moment to rate and review the show on whatever platform you're using, whether it's Spotify, apple, podcasts, YouTube, whatever. That's how the algorithm knows to suggest us to new people. Now here's our episode on shame and community and asking for help.

[00:01:30] Enjoy.

[00:01:33] Molly: okay.

[00:01:34] How's it going, Lynn?

[00:01:35] Lynn: Pretty good. How you doing, Molly?

[00:01:37] Molly: I'm good. Thank you. It's gloomy and rainy in Chicago,

[00:01:40] Lynn: Okay. Yeah. It's, it's, sticky and, just kind of nasty and sunny here outside DC.

[00:01:48] Molly: summertime in the swamp

[00:01:50] Lynn: Yes. Totally.

[00:01:52] Okay, so today we're going to talk about shame and community and asking for help. so I was going to start with a story, when I was first thinking about doing ketamine treatments. I knew I didn't have really the funds to do it by myself. so I, I think you, you might remember this. I think I reached out to you. Yeah, I reached out to like everybody. Yeah. almost like nine, ten years ago or something.

[00:02:22] Molly: no, it wasn't that long ago. It was like 2019, I think. Yeah,

[00:02:27] Lynn: Okay.

[00:02:27] Molly: yeah, because I was looking, I was, I did ECT in 2018 and then Ketamine started in 2019.

[00:02:34] Lynn: did I feel like it was so long ago? Yes. Yeah.

[00:02:37] Molly: I don't know, but it was, it was a big deal for me because I always felt like, like part of me always felt and still sometimes feels like the depression.

[00:02:47] was my fault. Like I should have like just been wiser or more, you know, just smarter, should have been able to figure it out somehow and like treat myself better or whatever. Like there had to have been a way that I could have avoided this. And so I, you know, so you're embarrassed. and there's a lot of stigma and everything.

[00:03:08] So when I like made that announcement and reached out on social media and like, you know, my family reached out on social media it was also kind of like a coming out for me. Like it wasn't just asking for money, it was also like, Hey, this is something I suffer with. There was a lot of people in my life who didn't know at the

[00:03:23] Lynn: Yeah.

[00:03:23] Molly: and, it felt good to tell people just because when you, don't tell people you feel like a liar, you know, like you're hiding kind of all the time and pretending that you're healthier than you are. So anyway, this one time, during that campaign, I think the campaign lasted like a month or something when people were sending in money online, which was really cool.

[00:03:43] Like it really changed my, my perspective going into the ketamine treatments, by the way, like it was like, I felt like I had all this support. It was really, really helpful in that way to not just the money, but like the just support from all over. It was really cool.

[00:04:01] Lynn: I think it's cool.

[00:04:02] Molly: but during that like month, as it was going on, I was at the Irish Heritage Center here in Chicago, with a cousin of mine and like one of his daughters was playing.

[00:04:12] It was this big kind of festival and she was playing a musical instrument. We were watching the concert and stuff. And, as we were leaving, he, he's a little bit older than me. And he, took like, I think like 300 and shoved it in my pocket as we were leaving. And he kind of like grabbed me by the shoulders and he, you know, And he, like, told me in my ear, like, if you ever need anything, and he just, like, really, he kind of shook me

[00:04:35] Lynn: Mmhmm.

[00:04:36] Molly: And I was like, Well, shit, John, like, there was like a moment is like something clicked for me.Because I knew that he was really telling the truth, like I knew he would be mad if I needed something and I didn't tell him and that he cared, you know, and, ever since then, I've really had this sensation, like I've really had this feeling that like, I might go down, like this illness might take me down, but it's not gonna, it's not gonna be because I didn't ask for help.

[00:05:04] Like, it's not gonna be because I was meek about it. there's something that just like struck me in that moment. Like it's too arbitrary, it's too arbitrary that some people have money and some people don't have money It's too arbitrary that some people get sick and some people don't get sick.

[00:05:19] Like I'm not gonna pretend it's my fault I'm not gonna go down like this If I do, like, I don't mean to get dark, but like, if it does bring me down, there's not going to be anybody at my funeral who's like, Oh, I wish I had known, you know, like, I'm going down like a drowning woman screaming and yelling, like, everybody's gonna know.

[00:05:38] And honestly, that felt like it felt like such a relief to know that. And to have that kind of in my back pocket that like, it's just not, it's just not going to be. quiet.and I've never talked to my cousin about that. I don't know. I'm sure he has no idea that he had that effect on me.

[00:05:58] But, I think it's also like a, you know, a story about how you never know what effect you have on other people that like he thinks he gave me 300 and I feel like he changed my, my perspective on my illness really. Like I feel better after that moment, you know what I mean than I did before and I don't know I've my therapist once told me that Disclosure is the antidote to shame.

[00:06:23] Lynn: Oh, interesting. So like, instead of holding it in and just feeling that shame alone, once you share it with the world, you're not, you don't feel the shame anymore.

[00:06:36] Molly: Right? Right that like it chips away at the feeling of shame Like the more open and honest you are about

[00:06:43] Lynn: Hmm. That's

[00:06:44] Molly: Yeah, which I really like that. It's so Succinct. Disclosure is the antidote to shame. Yeah.

[00:06:51] Lynn: do like that. That's cool. Interesting.

[00:06:55] Molly: yeah, I think it like, it definitely happens and I still feel ashamed of my illness occasionally, but like, it definitely helps that everybody knows, you know what I mean?

[00:07:03] I think that for me it definitely was true that disclosure was a big antidote.

[00:07:08] Lynn: And not only does it like make you feel better and take away some of that shame it sounds like, but it also is like, Has actually helped you in like some tangible ways in that you were able to access ketamine treatment for example, right? I mean, that's huge, you know asking for help Led you to be able to access this treatment that

[00:07:28] Molly: Yeah. Literally.

[00:07:30] Lynn: helpful Yeah, because like you said, it's totally arbitrary that some people have money and they're like, oh, yeah I can just access these really expensive treatments and some people don't You So, good for you for

[00:07:41] Molly: We don't live.

[00:07:42] Lynn: helping.

[00:07:44] Molly: Yeah, I've had people for helping. Yeah, exactly. Right. Yeah, it came down to like, I was like, you know, we don't live in a meritocracy. Like we just don't. So

[00:07:54] Lynn: Yeah.

[00:07:55] Molly: I'm not going to act, I'm not going to punish myself as if I deserve the bad things that have happened to me in life.

[00:08:00] Lynn: Mmhmm.

[00:08:01] Molly: Life does enough of that by itself.

[00:08:03] Lynn: Mmhmm. Yeah. That's really powerful. That's huge. Good for you. For just like, for doing that. That must have been hard. I remember that very clearly when you did that on social media and it was like that. That was huge. And I remember thinking that must have been hard to just be so open and so vulnerable about what was happening and that I also remember that you had a huge response of people being really supportive and giving money and people just have like putting out heartfelt responses of, you know.

[00:08:36] Wanting to support you and,

[00:08:39] Molly: I felt really lucky. I think it also can be like a good example, right? Like everybody needs help at some different point in their lives.

[00:08:47] And so the more we ask for help, the more other people are encouraged to do the same thing, I think.

[00:08:53] Lynn: So true. No, you're right. I feel, and I feel like, yeah, seeing you, I was just thinking like, yeah, if I were in your shoes, yeah. Oh my God. Like, what would I do? And how would my network's response be? Yeah. Seeing someone else do that. Demonstrates to others, you know, that like, Oh, I, maybe I could do that if I were in the same boat, you know,

[00:09:14] Molly: Yeah, which I think is like,

[00:09:16] Lynn: do it.

[00:09:18] Molly: it's important for like, even when you're not asking for help,

[00:09:22] Lynn: Mm hmm.

[00:09:24] Molly: it's important to feel like you could get it if you needed

[00:09:27] Lynn: Yeah.

[00:09:28] Molly: you know? I feel like, I think I read this online somewhere at some point that like, we think we're Like it's a character strength to be able to pull yourself up by your bootstraps and be like a self made person or whatever.

[00:09:44] And then I read online at some somewhere that like, feeling like you have to rely on yourself is actually a trauma response. And I was like, Oh shit, that actually does make sense.

[00:09:56] Lynn: I know. Totally.

[00:09:58] Molly: Like, We're interdependent people, animals, whatever. Like, we're naturally interdependent and feeling like you can't be interdependent is actually dangerous. Yeah.

[00:10:13] Lynn: Yeah. You know, I actually, I had a friend recently who's lives in Portland and she had a, this kind of like a freak injury. She was like playing futsal and. Had ruptured her Achilles heel or Achilles tendon, you know, like which I'd never even heard of something like this being ruptured It wasn't even like in the middle of like doing something cool like she just was like turning the ball and just like completely ruptured the tendon and

[00:10:36] Molly: Oh

[00:10:38] Lynn: Then, you know, had to have multiple surgeries and was like in different multiple casts and, you know, in like a little scooter, you know, just was like really out.

[00:10:48] She just now is like starting to walk and bike and stuff again. several months later, which is a really bad injury. And I found out about it cause she sent out an email, to a group of friends saying, I need help basically. And saying,like I say, just like updating people and she set up a meal train for herself and she lives alone, like part time when her partner comes in part time.

[00:11:10] And she said, you know, my, something like my new year's resolution this year was just be better at asking for help. And I was like, Oh, That's kind of cool. Like at first,

[00:11:21] Molly: timing in a way.

[00:11:22] Lynn: totally. And at first I was, I was a little bit like set up a meal train for yourself. I was like, this is my first reaction, honestly.

[00:11:29] And I felt like awkward about this was like, this is a little awkward. Set up a meal train for yourself. You almost want to like nudge someone and be like, can you set up a meal train for me? Like I need, I'm desperately going to need this. I'm not going to be able to cook for myself. It's going to be ridiculously expensive to like get a bunch of, meals delivered, you know?

[00:11:46] But she was just like, you know what? This is what I need. I need, can people, can people bring me food? Can please you bring me food? And these are things I don't like. And, or can you have meals delivered? And I need help. I'm going to need help for months. Yeah, I know. And at first, like my honest reaction was a little bit like, That's a little awkward.

[00:12:05] Then I was like, actually, that's good for her. Like, that makes sense. Why do we have to wait for others? Like, what if you don't have friends or family that automatically like, Oh, we're going to set up a meal train for you. You know, like not everyone is just going to jump to it and do that. Like, if you need the help, ask for the help, you know, and a bunch of people responded.

[00:12:23] She had a whole bunch of people that for months were bringing meals and like, I sent, because I'm on the other side of the country, I like sent gift certificates for meal delivery and, you know, it was just like, People were sending messages and care, care packages and stuff like that. And, and she had this whole like email thing set up where she was sending notes about what was happening, updates and everything.

[00:12:42] Molly: And it was really nice to just hear from her on what was happening.and it like it builds community too, right? Like you all probably everyone who participated felt closer together and like we can do this together

[00:12:53] Lynn: Yeah, no, I know. I appreciated it. I appreciated it. And I felt like what a cool idea of like how she was better able to take care of herself. Like, I could imagine if I were in that situation, I would just be like sitting at home, like in my bed being grouchy and be like, I wish people would take better care of me.

[00:13:11] Why isn't anyone helping me, you know, and like not maybe not brave enough to be like, you know what? I'm just going to put myself out there and ask for the help I need because it's hard. And maybe you

[00:13:21] Molly: It's really hard.

[00:13:23] Lynn: you know?

[00:13:25] Molly: And often, like, in a lot of cases, especially I feel like with mental illness, like, you don't necessarily know what you need.

[00:13:32] Lynn: Yeah, totally.

[00:13:34] Molly: can be like a very different problem altogether. Like, if you don't know what to ask for, it's like, I've been in that situation before, too, where you're just like, I just need help.

[00:13:45] Like somebody just help me. And that is, you know, that's a different kind of, that's more for like your, your closest circle, to try to figure out like how they can possibly lift you up and get you in a better place. But I feel like whenever you do have like a specific ask, that's when it's like, really, that's when like a big group of people can pull together.

[00:14:08] And, and, you know, not everybody, a specific ask is not, it's like when, you know, people say that after like someone passed away, like, let me know if I can do anything. And it's like, that's not

[00:14:19] Lynn: helpful. Yeah, in general, that's not really that helpful, but when it's like, you're like, I need food, like every day I need food, or I need someone to just like send me a text message to say hello or something like that. Like if there's something specific that that's helpful, right, or I need someone to find me a specialist in this, like help me do this research on a specialist, like some specific things.

[00:14:44] Molly: Right. Yeah. I think that's a great example, because like, navigating your way through the, through the Medical system can be such a challenge and the research, you know, you can get buried in that kind of research and not I just it's very, it's very like, overwhelming is very easy to get overwhelmed and to be able to, like, make discreet requests like that of people I think can be really, really helpful.

[00:15:10] Lynn: Yeah.

[00:15:12] Molly: Because, you know, from the outside, they're looking at you like, God, I hope she's okay. Well,

[00:15:16] Lynn: Yeah,

[00:15:17] Molly: you know, without a clue of what to do.

[00:15:19] Lynn: Yeah.

[00:15:21] Molly: Yeah. So I think like with ketamine treatments in particular, there tend to be, I don't know, there's like maybe three things that you, will usually need help with. we've talked about some of them in past episodes before.

[00:15:33] someone to keep you company and be super nice to you during and after your ketamine treatments. So if you're doing a lozenge at home, you might need someone just to kind of like be your sitter and

[00:15:44] Lynn: Mm

[00:15:45] Molly: company. And then we've also talked about, you and me, Lynn, I think came up with a bunch of ideas of things to do like after an infusion, and like just fun things to do while you're, more neuroplastic.

[00:15:57] Lynn: Yeah, like go get ice cream.

[00:15:59] Molly: Right, right. Yeah. I think we thought of rollerskating too, which now that I think of it is like maybe the day or two after, not the day

[00:16:07] Lynn: Yeah. Cause it could be a little dangerous.

[00:16:09] Molly: it'd be a little dangerous. Yeah.

[00:16:11] Lynn: someone roller skating through the airport the day, by the way, which was like, isn't that wild? Like she was just flying. and I was like, what a way to get to your gate, I guess, but seems a little dangerous. And is that legal?

[00:16:22] Molly: I feel exactly two ways about that. Right. Like part of me is like, you can't do that. And part

[00:16:27] Lynn: know. And then you're also like, I guess that's kind of smart, actually, you know, yeah, I

[00:16:32] Molly: Right.

[00:16:33] Lynn: been thinking about that lady. I'm like, wow. Yeah. Interesting. She's brave.

[00:16:38] Molly: like you brought those roller skates in. That's

[00:16:41] Lynn: Yeah. I know.

[00:16:44] Molly: I wonder how many other people who saw her

[00:16:47] Lynn: Okay.

[00:16:48] Molly: still thinking

[00:16:48] Lynn: I was. I know. Totally. I was sitting next to some people that were laughing about her for a long time. Yeah. Like I thought about engaging them in conversation and I let it be. It was fun. I've thought about her regularly. I'm sure other people are too. She was flat. She was like styling too, you know?

[00:17:04] Molly: Oh, I love it. Watching someone who really knows how to roller skate is so cool.

[00:17:09] is. Yeah. I would love to be there someday. That's like, maybe like, you know, when I'm in my fifties going to get into skating. Hopefully I've not hurt myself. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's like, yeah. Skate dancing is like such a cool thing to be able to do.

[00:17:23] Lynn: we digress.

[00:17:29] Molly: is rides home from the clinic. someone to pick you up and take you home after you've had an infusion or an intramuscular injection, when you're a little shaky on your feet.

[00:17:39] I was talking about before, a lot of us will need help with money to pay for the ketamine treatments. I think we might talk about fundraising on a different episode, like talk about like all the different ways to possibly raise money for ketamine treatments because even where, like in Australia and stuff where psilocybin and MDMA are legal for, for mental illness.

[00:18:01] They're still like, yeah, I think psilocybin treatment. I can't remember which one it was. The estimation is like 15 or 20, 000 right now.

[00:18:10] Lynn: That's insane.

[00:18:13] Molly: It's really,

[00:18:14] Lynn: Wow.

[00:18:15] Molly: so much time is the expensive part. Like people need to sit with you. Those, those medications, The trip lasts for like four hours, eight hours, and someone needs to sit with you the whole time.

[00:18:26] So, and that person needs to be trained, obviously, and there aren't a lot of them available. And yeah,

[00:18:33] Lynn: like, the expertise of that person and their time. Interesting. Okay. Huh. I wonder what it costs in like Portland, you know, in Oregon, where psilocybin is now legal, but then I think they're not, it's like they're therapists, but they're not doctors. I have to be with you.

[00:18:49] I'd be curious to know what that is.

[00:18:52] Molly: yeah, I wonder too, like,just in the psychedelic ecosystem nowadays, there's a lot of conversation about like accessibility versus training and like people who aren't that well trained do the sitting, because if we wait for everybody to be well trained, we're going to lose a lot of people in the meantime.

[00:19:14] Lynn: Yeah.

[00:19:15] Molly: and there's just going to be a lot of suffering waiting for all these therapists and physicians to get trained up and at the same time, like, there's a huge potential for abuse if people, if there's not any kind of certification, no kind of like way to tell who's a quack and who knows what they're doing.

[00:19:32] Lynn: yep

[00:19:33] Molly: So, I think like, I, it's, it's, It's also one of those things that like shouldn't be a market,

[00:19:42] Lynn: mm hmm

[00:19:43] Molly: like just because it's rare doesn't mean it should be expensive. But again, I digress. I think like the first thing you want to do when you're when you're thinking about asking for help is like, I find this really difficult all the time is I don't assume I tend to assume that people know what I'm going through,

[00:20:02] Lynn: hmm

[00:20:03] Molly: and that they have some kind of sense of how I'm struggling.

[00:20:08] And it's just not the case. Thanks. People have no idea. And they don't know how bad it really is. And I found like looking back, I feel like people like in my experience, people don't want to believe that you're doing as badly as you are, when you're doing really badly. And especially with mental illness, it's often an invisible disease.

[00:20:29] You, you just, it's very, you know, we tend to isolate when we're not doing well, and you definitely tend to isolate. when you're actually crying and suffering, you know what I mean? You don't do that out at a coffee shop with a friend. So I think it's very easy for people to tell themselves the happy story and tell themselves that you're probably doing better and you're on your way up or whatever.

[00:20:53] Lynn: yeah

[00:20:53] Molly: I think like, Some ways like people don't want to believe that it can happen to them. So they don't want to believe that it can happen at all.and I once heard this quote, there's this woman who wrote this quote called, or this book called The Body in Pain. She's a Harvard professor, her name's Elaine Scary, Scary? And, She wrote this quote, it says to have great pain is to have certainty, to hear that another person has pain is to have doubt.

[00:21:23] Lynn: hmm

[00:21:24] Molly: Isn't that, it's kind of, it's like pretty dark and crazy, but I feel like it's happened to me that like, I even do that to myself sometimes.

[00:21:32] Like I'll be in a lot of pain and two weeks later I'll be like, it wasn't that bad. And then I'll have that same pain over again. I'm like, this is

[00:21:40] Lynn: Like, this is the worst pain ever. And then you look back on it like, eh, what was that really, what was that really

[00:21:45] Molly: exactly. I feel like women going through birth, this happens to them all the time. Like your husband can't believe it's that

[00:21:52] Lynn: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Or you look back on it and you're like, it wasn't that bad. And then during it, this is the worst thing ever. Why would anyone ever have a baby?

[00:22:01] Molly: Right? Exactly.

[00:22:03] Lynn: Yeah.

[00:22:03] Molly: there's nothing, you're like certain of nothing more than you're certain of like, this is unbearable pain. This is not

[00:22:09] Yeah. Yeah. So I think like, there is something about that. Like when you tell someone you're hurting, like it's weird, but their first inclination is to be like, nah, you're, you're okay.

[00:22:19] Lynn: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:22:22] Molly: true. Yeah. We want to, we want to think everyone's okay. We want to thank that. Yeah.

[00:22:27] it's helpful, like, you know, that's our sort of ingrained optimism or whatever, but it also leads to like you writing off people who are trying to reach out.

[00:22:36] Lynn: hmm. Hm.

[00:22:39] Molly: one way I've found to counteract that impulse in people is just to, like, tell them a very specific story, like back to specifics, right?

[00:22:48] Like, if you can tell them a story about how much you're struggling, it really helps them, like, it gives them something to, like, latch onto. like, I feel like physicians always say, like, you know, rate your pain on one to ten and it just feels so amorphous and impossible.

[00:23:02] Lynn: Yeah. And 1 to 10 is like different for everybody. Yeah. And like, ugh. God. Yeah.

[00:23:08] Molly: had a experience the other day at a doctor's office.

[00:23:11] I went to a specialist and it was like, on my way to the exam room, you know, they stop you and like take your blood pressure, your weight, whatever it was like kind of in this hallway and this woman is typing in my blood pressure and my weight and then she like doesn't even really look up from the computer and she goes, do you have any concerns of a family, psychosocial, emotional or spiritual nature? And I was

[00:23:38] Lynn: Like, all of those things?concern like, that's so weird. Yeah.

[00:23:46] Molly: exam room. And I'm sitting there in this hallway and I just turned to her and I was like, I was like, of course,

[00:23:54] Lynn: Like, do you want to talk for a couple hours? I mean, yeah, how long do you have?

[00:23:59] Molly: where I'm a person. I don't.

[00:24:01] Lynn: I mean.

[00:24:04] Molly: And so and then she's just so she maintained the like complete matter of fact, like detached nature

[00:24:09] Lynn: Oh,

[00:24:09] Molly: it.

[00:24:09] And she was like, what are your concerns? And I was like, and it was a hematologist office. So I was like, what does this have to do with like, I don't even know what to tell you. So I was like, I have treatment resistant depression. She's like, rate your concern from one to 10. I was like, am I in like

[00:24:27] Lynn: what the hell? That's so weird.

[00:24:32] Molly: I was also worried like I'm not trying to get hospitalized today.

[00:24:35] Lynn: no,

[00:24:35] Molly: I say I'm a nine or a 10,

[00:24:37] Lynn: She's gonna be like,

[00:24:38] Molly: get hauled

[00:24:38] Lynn: okay, like, they're gonna put you in a straight jacket. Yeah.

[00:24:41] Molly: Yeah.

[00:24:42] Lynn: Oh my god.

[00:24:44] Molly: I don't know, like eight and she was like, Okay, you know, and then they sent me to the exam room, and then I'm waiting in the exam room for half an hour for the doctor to come in, thinking about all of my family and socioeconomic and spiritual concerns, like how I would answer that question.

[00:24:58] It was horrible.

[00:25:00] Lynn: so weird. That is so weird. That's actually messed up.

[00:25:06] Molly: it's messed up because it's, it's just a perfect like microcosm of how the medical system is designed to check boxes and not to care for people.

[00:25:14] Lynn: Yeah.

[00:25:16] Molly: Someone's thought, you know, if we put that question in, we'll be doing that like wraparound care that matters.

[00:25:24] Lynn: Yeah. And just, just get a quick answer from someone. Just ask them scale of one to ten, you know. Most people don't have any concerns

[00:25:33] Molly: No, what are you going to, like,

[00:25:35] Lynn: Most people just normal, you know. No concerns.

[00:25:38] Molly: Most people are normal, right? Most people are normal and wouldn't have these concerns. This, this laundry list of every type of concern that anyone could possibly have.

[00:25:49] Lynn: Yeah. If you don't have any concerns in those areas, like I don't think you're actually human, but okay, whatever. Mm hmm.

[00:25:57] Molly: it made me think about like, I remember one time I, was telling someone, an old friend about, my, so when I wake up, I started waking up really early in the morning, like 3am and not going back to sleep. And my doctors started looking into like treatments for insomnia.

[00:26:14] And finally to one of them, I was like, I don't think it's insomnia because I don't try to go back to sleep.

[00:26:19] Lynn: Oh.

[00:26:20] Molly: And they were like, Oh, well, what? Why not? And I was like, Oh, because like, you know, when you wake, I wake up in the morning, I have terrible, like violent, intrusive thoughts all the time. So I have to get out of bed and do something else.

[00:26:32] And they were, and my psychiatrist in particular was like, excuse me.

[00:26:36] Lynn: Yeah.

[00:26:36] Molly: it had never, it had never occurred to me to tell that particular symptom to my psychiatrist or anyone else because it, first of all, it just wasn't my major concern. I had a way to cope with it immediately. You just get up and do stuff.

[00:26:52] and second of all, it just happened so early in the morning. I don't know. It just never. it never made the list of symptoms. and so once I told my psychiatrist about it, he started, you know, it kind of really changed the way he was thinking about treating the quote unquote insomnia.

[00:27:09] Lynn: hmm. Mm

[00:27:10] Molly: a friend of mine this, and she was like, Oh, that's like, what kind of Thoughts do you have in the morning?

[00:27:17] And I was telling her and she was like, that's horrible. That's horrible. And I was like, well, yeah, like, what do you how do you think this goes? Like, what? And that goes back to me, like, assuming that people know what you're going

[00:27:31] Lynn: Yeah.

[00:27:31] Molly: They have no idea what you're going through. And they wouldn't guess that you're having weird, violent thoughts every morning.

[00:27:37] That's not a normal thing. and after

[00:27:39] Lynn: scary.

[00:27:42] Molly: yeah, super scary and horrible. And it was just a, it was like, I've, it made me realize like how people don't, they just have no idea what you're going through until you tell them. It's that

[00:27:53] Lynn: right. Absolutely. Yeah, that's a very good point. That's a way to be very concrete about it. Because yeah, that's like, yeah, that's, that's scary. Yeah, people don't know.

[00:28:06] Molly: Right, and if you tell them like it's a 8 out of 10, like it doesn't that doesn't get

[00:28:10] Lynn: okay. It sounds like you're sad. You're, you know,

[00:28:14] Molly: That sounds bad, right? But it's not it's very it's much easier to discount the 8 out of 10 Than it is to discount like waking up in the morning and having terrible thoughts immediately. Yeah. So anyway, I thinkIt's basically just a way to get buy in when you're looking for help, like, and then I think the other thing that is helpful is like to really talk about expectations.

[00:28:35] So like, like we were saying before, about like, very, like, get as specific as you can. Um,I think with ketamine, like especially with infusions or with lozenges, if someone is sitting for you or driving you home, it's really helpful to let them know what to expect. they can expect from you. if you've been through an infusion before, you kind of know, and you can say like, I'm going to be loopy.

[00:28:56] I'm going to be like this. And if you haven't been through an infusion or intramuscular injection before, you can check out season number one, episode number five. We talked about this back then. we kind of went through this step by step and you can share that episode of course. and I think like another thing you can do talking about specific instructions is like, For someone who's picking you up, if you can give them things to do, like bring sunglasses, like please turn the radio off before I get in the car, like little things like that can, it doesn't just help you when you get out of the infusion, it also helps them feel prepared, you know, for what they're walking into.

[00:29:35] Because a lot of people like, they don't know if you're going to be crying, they don't know if you're going to, they don't know if they can handle it.

[00:29:40] Lynn: hmm.

[00:29:42] Molly: and then I think like the bigger picture of expectations as well, likethe fact that your brain is more elastic, means that you're, the better your experiences in those 72 hours after an infusion, the more you're rewiring your brain to be.

[00:30:03] Lynn: Yeah.

[00:30:05] Molly: have happier habits and to have happier thought patterns. And so I think that really helps people understand that like this is a crucial turning point. It can be. And that, you know, it's worth putting other things aside to try to address it. To try to like, take advantage of that opportunity in those 72

[00:30:25] Lynn: Yeah. Yeah. So don't turn on the news. Don't, let's not talk about the news. Don't ask like questions about like touchy, difficult subjects or like, don't, don't, don't like, if they're going to like answer the phone and have like a, like argument with their partner or their mom or something like, let's like, don't, don't do any of that.

[00:30:47] Molly: Yeah. It's like literally for those 72 hours you need like actual good vibes only, like truly

[00:30:54] Lynn: That's so important.

[00:30:56] Molly: Yeah. Yeah. And like it's, it can also be a great time to just like talk about cool shit. Like, you know, let let the person who has gone through the infusion lead the way and just, see what. things occur to them.

[00:31:10] See what crazy, you know, foods they want. I remember having a mango lassi after the first time I ever had an infusion and I was just like, this is the best flavor I've ever tasted in my entire, you know, like,

[00:31:24] Lynn: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:31:27] Molly: so it can be really fun. And then, finally, I think like the last thing to do to like lead up to, having someone help you with ketamine infusions is just like, share what you're worried about.

[00:31:38] Ask them what they're worried about, have like an intentional conversation leading up to it because, it creates the reality, like not just the perception, but the reality that you're in it together. And that's the, that's really the trick, right? Is to like bring people from the outside. To the inside of, of, you know, like you're fighting shoulder to shoulder now.

[00:31:59] It's not you against the world or you against the illness. It's you people together. It's the community trying to solve this problem

[00:32:07] Lynn: hmm.

[00:32:08] Molly: in the end, like, sucks for, it just sucks so bad. It deserves, it deserves the attention. and that's like, I feel like the main, the most important point is, you know, not like how to ask for help, but to ask for help.

[00:32:24] because when you do it, you're asserting that you're worth saving.

[00:32:29] And I feel like it's important. For people to hear over and over again that they're worth helping, because it's just true and we tend to, especially when we're super depressed or suffering with all kinds of different things that people suffer with in their lives, like it's very easy to not want to bother people.

[00:32:47] Disclosure.

[00:32:50] Lynn: You're carrying all that shame. You just sit with it. Don't wanna do anything. Don't wanna, yeah. Don't want to take it to anybody else. What was it? Um,what's the antidote to shame? Again? Disclosure. Disclosure is the antidote to shame. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. I'm

[00:33:08] Molly: Yeah. And I put myself like, I think about like putting myself in my cousin John's shoes, you know, and if this situation was reversed, and him or somebody else that I love was like, thinking, Oh, no, I can't tell Molly because it'd be such a burden. It just like breaks your heart a little bit to think of someone feeling that way.

[00:33:26] Lynn: We all assume that people aren't, aren't holding things back from us, but. They are. Yeah. So, yeah. That's huge.

[00:33:37] Molly: It is. And also, like, I have you do you know of anybody? Is there anybody in your life who won't? Like, won't ask for help when they need it, that comes to mind.

[00:33:48] Lynn: Yes. Yes. Oh my God.

[00:33:50] Molly: And it's honestly such a pain in the ass.

[00:33:54] Lynn: Totally.

[00:33:55] Molly: Like, it's not helpful, actually, when people won't ask for what they need.

[00:33:59] Lynn: Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know.

[00:34:02] Molly: The closer you are to them, the more of a pain in the ass it is.

[00:34:05] Lynn: Yeah. No. He's like, yeah. Can't. Can I? Yes. Yeah. Yes. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I've got like, in my, within my family, there are a lot of issues with this. Yeah.

[00:34:16] Molly: And it's like, you're supposed to read their mind and whatever. There's a million downstream negative consequences of people

[00:34:23] Lynn: Yeah. And he's like, if you just, if you had just, yeah, let me know or let all of us know all of the suffering, all of these issues, like we just could have helped you maybe years ago or days ago, you know, there's so much, yeah. You don't have to go it alone.

[00:34:40] Molly: Right. You don't have to go it alone. And the truth is you're not going it alone.

[00:34:44] Lynn: Yeah.

[00:34:45] Molly: So don't make it harder on everybody else in a way.

[00:34:49] Lynn: Yeah. But yeah, it's, it's sad. And it really, I think so much of it is about shame,

[00:34:54] Molly: Yeah.

[00:34:54] know, like we get stuck in shame and that sucks. So we try to keep things a secret, yeah, whether it's mental health, addiction, other things that we think are somehow bad,Right. like it can depend on the illness or whatever. It depends on the level of stigma, like how open people are to admitting that they need help or whatever.

[00:35:18] Lynn: Yeah.

[00:35:20] Molly: yeah, so it's very clear that like shame and stigma have a lot to do with it. Yeah.

[00:35:24] Lynn: Ugh.

[00:35:25] Molly: So, yeah, so I don't know, I think like the, the, the upside is that like there's so many positive downstream consequences to actually asking for help, whether it's building community, setting a good example, like actually getting the help that you need, et cetera, et

[00:35:41] Lynn: Mhm. Yeah.

[00:35:42] Molly: that's the flip side of it,

[00:35:43] Lynn: Yeah. I love it.

[00:35:45] Molly: anyway, thanks so much Lynn,

[00:35:48] Thanks, Molly. bye.

[00:35:50] Lynn: Bye.

[00:35:52] Molly: Thanks for spending time with us today. I hope you enjoyed the show. If you did, please take a moment. Think about someone who has helped you, someone you might need help from or someone that you'd like to help. Then go ahead and share this episode with them. Maybe thank them. Make a specific request. Maybe offer them a helping hand.

[00:36:15] Start a conversation. Thanks for sharing our show. If you've got five extra bucks a month laying around and you ought to help keep the podcast going, please go to our Patreon or our substack and sign up as a supporter. That helps keep us going without ads or sponsors. Ketamine insights is co-hosted by Molly Dunn and Lynn Schneider. Our music is by Solid State Symphony. Until next time. Remember to advocate for yourself. And never ration your joy.