"Like a Revolution in My Entire Psyche": Rob's Path to Mental Health

Dive into an inspiring conversation with Rob as he describes his transformative experience with ketamine therapy, the cognitive improvements it can offer, and how it restores brain health.

We discuss Rob's comprehensive online resource, KetamineTherapyForMentalHealth.com, which provides guidance and support for those seeking ketamine treatment. 

This episode is packed with personal anecdotes, expert advice, and practical tips for anyone curious about psychedelic medicine and mental health.

If you enjoy Ketamine Insights, please share it with a friend and rate and review it on your favorite podcast platform. That really helps!

Support us and join our community at https://www.patreon.com/ketamineinsights
or at https://mollydunn.substack.com/ 

Email us at ketamineinsights@gmail.com (we love to hear from you!)

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You can also find all of our episodes on YouTube and our website https://ketamineinsights.com/ 

In this episode we reference:
https://ketaminetherapyformentalhealth.com/ 

If you or someone you know is experiencing a mental health crisis, please get help. In the US, you can dial 988. You are never all alone.

Remember to advocate for yourself, and never ration your joy.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Ketamine Insights
• 0:40 Meet Rob, Ketamine Patient, Advocate, and Educator
• 1:37 Rob's Experience with Bipolar
• 5:37 Cognitive Improvements
• 9:08 Building a Ketamine Resource Website
• 18:04 Challenges in Ketamine Therapy
• 28:13 Accessing Affordable Ketamine Care
• 33:42 Exploring Ketamine Lozenges, Trochees, and RDTs
• 36:42 Choosing the Right Provider
• 39:14 Mira the Anchor Puppy
• 45:18 Spiritual Experiences with Ketamine
• 53:46 Advice for Patients, Family, and the Public

Transcript

[00:00:00] Theme Song: She's sometimes sad, she's sometimes happy. She's doing things to make her life less crappy. Trying a treatment that's new on the scene. Let's sit back and talk about Ketamine.

[00:00:18] Molly: Welcome to ketamine insights, a podcast about psychedelic medicine and mental health from a patient's perspective. Today, we're hearing from someone who is extremely knowledgeable about the ketamine landscape and wonderfully thoughtful about ketamine's use. Rob has been using therapeutic ketamine for several years and he has built a wonderful online resource for fellow patients. Please check it out at ketaminetherapyformentalhealth.com. That's ketamine therapy for mental health.com. You can find that link in the show notes notes and on our Patreon and Substack pages.

While you're visiting our patreon or substack pages, please sign up to support the podcast. We have no advertisers or other revenue, so it's your contributions that keep us on the air.

Ok. Here's the episode!

Today, we're welcoming Rob, who's built an extremely useful website called KetamineTherapyForMentalHealth. com. It's so extensive and I highly recommend that listeners go check it out. So Rob, thank you for joining us today on Ketamine Insights.

[00:01:27] We appreciate you making the time.

[00:01:29] Rob: Sure, absolutely. Thank you for having me.

[00:01:32] Molly: just to get started, could you tell us a little bit about yourself and maybe how ketamine has helped you?

[00:01:38] Rob: Sure. So I am bipolar type one, and struggled with chronic depression, and also manic episodes. So I've had a lot of difficult situations in my life. I wasn't diagnosed until I was 43 years old. And by that time I was so depressed that Well, as an example, I went to a trade show and I'm innately curious and love to learn and my field is technology.

[00:02:04] So I have to keep up with all the latest advancements. And so I went to a seminar, a trade show, a conference, and I was so depressed that I didn't leave the hotel room the entire week that I was there. I just stayed in the hotel room sleeping, because I couldn't get, find the motivation to even get up and go and attend.

[00:02:23] And, you know, these days, six years after starting ketamine therapy, I go to conferences and I'm all in, you know, I go to every session and I learn like a sponge as much as I can. So that chronic depression really affected me in a lot of different ways and it affected my work and it affected my personal life and bipolar.

[00:02:43] It came with a lot of paranoia. So my moods were unstable, like with bipolar emotion comes first and the rationale behind the emotion becomes second. And so I'd be feeling depressed or I'd be feeling upset and I wouldn't have, there's no rhyme or reason to it. But what I would do, because everybody says emotions have reasons and I didn't know that I was abnormal, I would try to rationalize why I had those different emotions.

[00:03:10] And it would lead to me, like, inferring hidden agendas or being paranoid about people saying that my gut hunch is telling me that this person is acting behind my back or whatever. When that wasn't the case, it was just that my emotions were a rollercoaster, and in the end, realizing what I know now, you know, it was just, like, random.

[00:03:31] But that paranoia was kind of pervasive and it affected my relationship, so like other people would sense that I was paranoid about them and I wouldn't act as neurotypical, you know, I would be defensive and I'd get, you know, I kind of had a wall that I put up and always thinking the worst of other people, you know, it's difficult to build trusting, loving relationships that way.

[00:03:54] And so, I would be the first one laid off from a company and I was always out on the outside of the group because people sense that and they don't necessarily understand why the person's that way, why they're paranoid or negative or all the different things. And so I was always on the outside. And with the ketamine therapy and having gotten rid of the depression completely, I have zero depression at all and haven't in the last six years.

[00:04:22] My entire life has turned around and I'm able to build trusting relationships. My work is going very well. I've been there several years and, you know, my boss and I get along great and I'm no longer that outcast that is the first one excluded. So to summarize that ketamine really is like a revolution in my entire psyche and ketamine heals the brain so like bipolar and chronic depression and psychosis that comes along with bipolar one actually do brain damage.

[00:04:56] it's shown in cognitive tests that bipolar patients who have undergone a psychosis. come out of it, a little less bright than they went into it. And each time you have a psychotic episode, it degrades more and more. But with ketamine, of course, it's a neurogenesis agent. So it rebuilds all those damaged brain networks.

[00:05:15] And, it has made like the depression go completely away. And, it has brought back the cognitive facilities that I had prior to undergoing a lot of the bipolar. Symptoms.

[00:05:32] Molly: Wow. So you've noticed a cognitive improvement as well.

[00:05:35] Rob: Yeah, and that's also proven by studies. So, this is an important thing to know if you're pursuing ketamine therapy. So, there are 14 studies that have been correlated, and those 14 studies show that there is a cognitive deficit that occurs shortly after the administration of ketamine. So, and this is also backed up by my own personal experience, where a couple days after you take ketamine, you're just not quite at your best.

[00:06:05] But these studies show that after seven days that you're at your new baseline. So if you're a ketamine patient that's taking ketamine every three days, like an at home administration, you know, not doing IVs or whatever.in order to really assess the improvement that ketamine is provided, you need to stop ketamine for seven days and then re evaluate your baseline, because that cognitive deficit is temporary.

[00:06:31] And then when they measured, you know, the cognitive improvement after seven days, there were marked improvements across the board for all patients.

[00:06:39] Molly: wow. I didn't know that. That's really interesting. I think it's especially valuable for people who are taking ketamine every other day, every third day,

[00:06:49] like you said, at home, that is the first time that I've heard someone say firsthand that they've noticed a cognitive improvement in the long term.

[00:06:56] That's really, that's interesting. I've gone through, ECT, In 2019 and noticed a huge cognitive deficit afterwards. And there's so many things going on with different illnesses that it can be hard to say what's because of what, but after four or five years of ketamine use, I do feel like my brain feels better.

[00:07:15] It's definitely more intact

[00:07:17] than it was in 2018.

[00:07:19] Rob: Yeah. And it kind of manifested for me as a, as like elimination of the mental fog. So some of the medications I take for bipolar just as a baseline introduce a little bit of mental fog. And I've just found a great deal of clarity that's come out of it. And I take ketamine, pretty frequently, a low dose.

[00:07:40] I take a very low dose on a, on a every three day basis at this point. And, in my industry, again, I'm being a technologist and always having to stay on the leading edge. I, really appreciate the neuroplasticity because it makes it really easy to pick up on new things. and, you know, some of the things that I work on, you know, I'm very high up in my organization and lead, organizations technically.

[00:08:06] And so, having that neuroplasticity all the time just gives me a competitive edge.

[00:08:13] Molly: That makes sense to me. I've, I've found for, in my experience, it can, it. It doesn't necessarily make me more creative. Like I want to write a story or paint a picture, but it makes me able to think creatively or problem solve more creatively.

[00:08:27] Rob: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I truly feel like, you know, when I was young, I was fairly bright, you know, gifted and talented classes in high school and whatnot. Thanks. and, you know, after the bipolar kind of took its toll, I knew that there were some deficits, and I feel like now after the ketamine therapy, especially over the last 4 years, you know, it took maybe a year, year and a half for ketamine to do its thing.

[00:08:51] But, you know, if I look over the last 4 or 5 years. I feel like I was at the same level. My, my potential was at the same level as when I was young.

[00:08:59] Molly: Yeah. that's that's fantastic. that's amazing. So, my next question was about building the, well, first of all, actually personally, I want to thank you for building that website just for my personal. it really helped me, find providers, find context. And like, I really. just appreciate all the labor that was clearly put into it and the thoughtful labor.

[00:09:20] So, I'm very excited for my listeners. Cause I, when I first found it, I thought for a second, like, this is the website I would have built if I had had the energy to build a website. And instead I started this podcast. So, anyway, I was wondering if you could describe the website a little bit for people who haven't been there yet.

[00:09:39] Rob: Sure. So originally the website was posted as a guide on Reddit. So I, well, originally, originally it was a success report on Reddit, because in the therapeutic ketamine sub, which I recommend to everyone, as a good resource for finding patients experiences, to relate to. I, there were people that were taking ketamine and it didn't work, and so they were posting challenge reports, and then those where it did work, and myself included, would post success reports, and then, because six years ago, ketamine was an experimental therapy, and there wasn't a lot of information about it.

[00:10:19] and in therapeutic ketamine, I found a lot of misinformation and I'm, I was driven well, one, because I have bipolar and I didn't want to destabilize myself, but two, I'm again, innately curious. So I was driven to figure out, like, how ketamine work, what its method of action was, and, you know, basically whether or not it would cause me any issues, because I was pretty stable with my baseline meds.

[00:10:45] But, You know, psychosis is something that is extraordinarily difficult and can cause all kinds of problems in one's personal life. And so I didn't want to go back and experience that. and so in reading through therapeutic ketamine and in looking at all the research that was available at the time and speaking with my provider, I found that, there was a lot of misunderstanding and misinformation.

[00:11:09] And so that success report eventually grew into a long question and answer. Session in the comments, which I would take the answers that were found to be more accurate than not and put that into the post like kept edited in the post and eventually it became a guide that was basically for new patients or any patients wanted to get more out of their therapy with the more authoritative answers.

[00:11:39] you know, because back then six years ago, it's all experimental studies are all over the place. Nobody really knows what's going on. And so there was a real need for a guide like that. And it turned out to be incredibly popular.

[00:11:51] Molly: Mm,

[00:11:52] Rob: There's hundreds of comments on that post. It was evolutionary, so as information was learned, different people would post the new information of the study or whatever.

[00:12:02] And so I'd constantly evolve that guide, and that was a labor of love for probably the first two years of my therapy. And at that point, I had somebody reach out to me and say, you know, this guide is wonderful, but the problem with Reddit is that it's kind of point in time and that, people, Like, there's no ability to go out and find that information necessarily.

[00:12:24] And so even though that guide existed, there were still all kinds of new posts and the same questions being asked over and over again in Reddit. And, you know, I participated a lot on the forums, hundreds of posts, maybe even thousands answering questions, but it was really repetitive. And so the collaborator that prompted me to make the website.

[00:12:47] Basically said, you know, he'd help and, you know, that we should take it and do that. And so that's what started the whole thing. And, together he and I built a large part of the site. And so it all started with the guide. And that's the, like, primary anchor of the site. About half the traffic the site receives, which is thousands of hits a week, goes to the guide.

[00:13:11] because that's like a primary. It teaches you everything you need to know about ketamine and how to get the most out of your therapy and it's very extensive. And because it's been 6 years in the making, it's highly accurate. You know, there's nothing that's, you know, like, controversial about it. you know, the providers have commented on it and, you know, it's just been made more and more accurate to the point where it's highly accurate and covers the current state of affairs with ketamine entirely.

[00:13:41] And then the other half of the site's traffic is driven by our providers directories. So, one of the problems that a lot of people face is that their PCP or that their primary site that isn't familiar with ketamine won't prescribe it. risks associated with ketamine, and so they don't want to jeopardize their license.

[00:13:59] And so, we knew that in order to be able to provide people with the ketamine therapy, that they'd have to find ketamine specific providers. And so we've taken a great deal of time in building a provider directory and providers now know about the site and are constantly registering, nonstop. So we probably have 500 different providers in the site at this point.

[00:14:20] And it's broken down by state. So that people can find a provider that's local to them if they want to, like a clinic where they can go in and do IVs. And then we also list the telemedicine providers, which are licensed across a fair number of states, and can do things in more of a cost effective way in a lot of cases.

[00:14:41] Molly: mm. And I noticed too there's a place for patients who've been to those providers to review them.

[00:14:49] Rob: Absolutely. And we,

[00:14:50] Molly: that's so great. Mm, mm,

[00:14:52] Rob: well, that's been a double edged sword because there have been negative feedback provided on some providers. And of course, we, in order to, we allow providers to tell us to not post reviews, and then we will say that this provider prevents reviews and some of the providers have gotten negative reviews have opted to do that just to, you know, give them like a fair shot, if you will.

[00:15:22] So keep. Pay attention to a provider with their provider listing to see whether or not they've suppressed reviews, but for the most part, generally, the reviews are quite positive and, you know, one of the more wide, widely known telemedicine providers gets consistent tens across the board.

[00:15:44] Molly: Wow.

[00:15:45] Rob: And so you can really tell which providers you might want to go to.

[00:15:50] without having to do a lot of research again, it centralizes everything. Right? So we wanted a one stop shop for everything you needed to know about ketamine and then everything you needed to know about getting lined up with a provider and getting treatment.

[00:16:03] Molly: I was so relieved. I found the website originally because of the guide somehow. And then, when I saw that second branch to the website where there were actual provider lists, I was so relieved, I thought. And I already had, been to a ketamine clinic here in Chicago and had, a prescriber for lozenges, but it, but that prescriber, you know, things don't work out or whatever.

[00:16:26] And everything, and it's like, you're scared, you're not gonna be able to get your medicine anymore. And you don't know where you're going to go. and I've had very, I've had very mixed experiences with different, infusion providers here in Chicago. And one or two that one in particular, that was just a really irresponsible, like obviously a money grab from a physician who didn't. know what he was doing and didn't. He had all like travel nurses staffing it. so I really appreciated that when I saw it because not every ketamine clinic is built equal,

[00:16:57] Rob: That's true. That's true. And another thing that drove the provider's directory is Dr. Smith, who is one of the largest telemedicine providers and had a huge patient base. About 3000 different patients was closed down by the DEA. And so there were a lot of people that were left without treatment and no real consolidated way to find other providers.

[00:17:19] So that was,

[00:17:19] Molly: what happened to me. That was my

[00:17:20] story. It was Dr. Smith got shut down and I had to find somebody new.

[00:17:24] Rob: yeah, yeah. So we really focused on the provider directory right about that time in order to be able to give people the resource.

[00:17:33] Molly: Yeah, so, so valuable because it's just hard, it's hard to Google this stuff, as you said, like you need a centralized resource. you also have room on the site for testimonials. And I was wondering when you hear from, from patients, what is the biggest challenge? Is it just that the ketamine doesn't work?

[00:17:52] Is it finding a provider? Is it, preparation, integration? What do you find most people, struggle with the most?

[00:17:59] Rob: Well, I get a couple people reaching out to me a week, generally speaking on Reddit, of course, the site lists my Reddit username and kind of gives the history of the guide and, you know, lets everybody know that I'm available to be asked questions of, and so, I think probably what I see most often is people getting discouraged.

[00:18:21] Ketamine therapy is not easy in the beginning for a lot of people. I would say probably for the majority of people, because, you know, ketamine acts both short term and long term. It acts short term through the experience of the ketamine, dose itself, where you go through somewhat of a trip and that'll surface trauma and, it'll bring forward emotions that have been suppressed for you to look at and to process.

[00:18:48] Now, the good news is, is if you do that, if you stick with it and you process those emotions, eventually all that heals and you're not faced with it day to day. But the other side of ketamine is that it's rebuilding neural networks. It's rebuilding the neurology within your brain. It's creating new synapses, new neurons, and it's remapping dendrite connections to make them more efficient.

[00:19:12] And that takes time. And it takes repeated doses in order to reinforce that it doesn't happen overnight. So, in the very beginning, let's say you're in your 1st, 6 doses or so, you've got all these emotions surfacing. You're going through these profound experiences with ketamine itself. And, it can get discouraging because you, a lot of people feel worse, with all that emotion coming up and all that trauma surfacing and having to work through that, and they haven't got the neurology online to be able to cope with that in a healthy way quite yet.

[00:19:44] Right? It takes a while to build out the healthy networks and to adapt over to using them as your primary way of interacting with life. And so there's a little lull in there where, you know, people get discouraged and a lot of people, I think most of the people that think that ketamine doesn't work are kind of in that period where they've got a lot that they're confronting and they haven't yet gotten the brain healing aspect of it to the point where they're able to handle a lot of that in a really healthy way.

[00:20:17] Molly: Mm

[00:20:18] Rob: And so my advice would be, you know, and what I provide a lot of the people that are in that period in, in, in therapy is just encouragement. and there's a, another thing I've noticed is that some people have negative self talk. I think it's easy when you're struggling with trauma and, you know, you're looking at your self worth and you're looking at who you are as an individual, to get down on yourself.

[00:20:40] And, you know, trauma makes people behave unpredictably. You can't trust yourself because you get triggered and then you go off and there's no rhyme or reason to behaviors when you're triggered because the reptilian brain takes over and it doesn't logic. At all. It's just, you know, subconscious, you know,

[00:21:02] Molly: Mm

[00:21:05] Rob: that, you know, can cause a lot of destruction within one's life.

[00:21:08] And so a lot of people that are pursuing ketamine therapy have that lack of trust for themselves. and a lot of negative self talk because they feel like they let themselves down a lot. and so another part of what I'd counsel people to do, beyond just sticking with it and tell the point that they've healed enough to where things get better, is to, check, keep in check that negative self talk and to start encouraging themselves and looking for the progress and then reinforcing the positive, behavior that they see, right?

[00:21:40] Because eventually you do get past all that trauma. You're not like, you know, subconsciously reacting to different situations. And it's important to keep in mind that that's progress and to see that progress for what it is, right?

[00:21:55] Molly: Mm

[00:21:56] Rob: if you continue with the same habits and the same, you know, negative self talk, then it's difficult sometimes to see the fact that you're getting better.

[00:22:06] And so I will call that out to people when they're like talking with me, when they say, well, you know, I saw this or I did that, and then I did this differently today. You know, I'm like, kudos, way to go, that's exactly what we want to see, right? And positive reinforcement is really what brings about a lot of the change in healing.

[00:22:24] Molly: Mm hmm. That makes a lot of sense. I think, the idea that you, it's difficult to trust yourself. health. Because, for good reason, right, because you see yourself acting irrationally, I think that can be a huge challenge. So when they tell you to kind of like acquiesce and let the ketamine lead the way, or to give, you know, give some of the control to the medicine, and when you don't, Trust your mind or you don't trust your inner voice to be healthy to be pleasant to listen to ever

[00:22:57] It's much easier said than done for a lot of us, especially at the very beginning like you said

[00:23:03] Rob: Well, and something to note, is that ketamine, one of its, methods of action is to kind of quiet that inner narrator. So, for some people, it gets so bad, that negative self attack, that they're almost constantly berating themselves. And that's so destructive to self esteem.and with bipolar, of course, I struggled with all of that to an extreme degree.

[00:23:26] and so to get that inner narrator quieted down. So it just isn't such. Constant negative reinforcement is 1 of the bigger benefits that I think is worth observing. Because it becomes almost tranquil in 1's mind when that inner narrator shuts up. and. You know, there's a term that I kind of evolved through my own experiences, just metacognition.

[00:23:53] And one of the things I think that ketamine provides, especially as you've taken it for a few months, is the ability to observe yourself. outside of your everyday thought processes. So you almost get like another aspect to your mind where you can say, well, that's an interesting interaction. I probably didn't behave exactly the way I wanted to in that.

[00:24:15] And you know, when we're all mired in the trauma and the negative self talk, we don't necessarily have that self awareness. It gives us that extra layer that says, You know, you need to take that into a session and work on it, or, you know, that might have been a trigger, you know, that self awareness to be able to self identify when the thought processes aren't necessarily healthy is something that I think ketamine kind of builds out over time, but it's worth, Like keeping in mind and being conscious about because it is progress when you see a trigger in real time and are able to, you know, maybe you still react irrationally to your point, but, the fact that you observe that and then say to yourself, well, you know, that's, that's something that I need to think about.

[00:25:07] And, you know, ketamine session can certainly be a great vehicle to do that.you know, that's another part of the progress that that's worth recognizing.

[00:25:15] Molly: Yeah, I think that's really really important that when you notice a trigger triggering you often You My response, I'll speak for myself, is to get mad that it triggered me. When ideally I would be happy that I noticed the trigger at all. That kind of

[00:25:32] thing that I had that metacognition, as you said. Yeah.

[00:25:35] That's a big, big difference. And then, and it builds momentum. It builds encouragement. It builds momentum.

[00:25:41] Rob: Well, and then the next time.

[00:25:43] Molly: Wow.

[00:25:51] Rob: pattern was that your stimulus response system, like, responded to with, you know, whatever irrational behavior came up, the next time you see that situation and you consciously say, Nope, I'm not going to trigger this time, you know, I'm going to deal with this in a healthy way using those new neural networks.

[00:26:08] I've got and the more you do that, and the more you recognize that you've done that. Okay. the positive feedback loop, you know, really starts to change that psychology around all the negative self talk in the, in the lack of trust, right? Because part of it is building that self trust over time. And as you heal, it turns out, like, those healthy networks do become dominant in day to day life, and you do deal with things in a healthy way.

[00:26:33] You get those triggers resolved, and then they don't come back up again. and and so. You know, part of the process is in recognizing that and then turning that into self trust, you know, now at six years in, I trust myself completely. I'm never going to react in a negative way. I've gotten rid of all my triggers.

[00:26:51] I haven't been triggered in three or four years. And and so, like, all my responses are healthy and rational and well thought out in what my therapist calls the wise mind, right? There's an emotional side and there's a rational side. And when you're triggered, it's all emotion that you don't have the rational side.

[00:27:08] So, you know, where we want to strive for is that wise mind, which is the balance of the two. And the more you recognize yourself in that wise mind, and you reinforce being in that wise mind, the more dominant it becomes. And eventually those trigger networks have to feed out. But ultimately, there is the, you know, the, the place in time where you do come to trust yourself entirely.

[00:27:31] And that negative self talk is completely gone, you know, because you are living the way you want to live and you are responding in a healthy adult way.

[00:27:40] Molly: hmm. Mm hmm. I think, I'm imagining how I would have felt listening to that eight years ago, when that negative self talk for me was, like you said, sort of like a constant berating. and it, I just hope there's listeners out there who are like, who hear that, because I think it's really, really true that virtuous cycle, is possible.

[00:28:04] Not just possible, but likely for a lot of people. Yeah.so we just did an episode about, ways to access like actual ways to access ketamine care, how to buy it in the US, what the transactions are like, and where you go and that kind of thing. Because I know that's like kind of an overwhelming, confusing morass for a lot of people. Do you have advice, especially for people with low incomes or without health insurance or whatever, like, because you know the ecosystem so well, are there ways that you recommend kind of cobbling together good care?

[00:28:39] Rob: yeah. So there are a couple options, right? And I'll just touch on the bigger ones. And the guide goes into this in a lot more detail. So, you know, I'd refer you there if you need more information. But, you know, there's typically the in clinic options, and a lot of times they go with IVs. And that's probably the more expensive alternative, right?

[00:28:59] Because the IVs require nurses to administer them at a minimum, and maybe it's a doctor. and, and you've got the infrastructure of the health clinic, and, you know, the, the medical aspects of it, the IV itself. And so, you know, they'll charge 600, 700 per IV. And the recommended, you know, therapy is six of them over a two week period, roughly.

[00:29:21] I mean, that's what most people do. And I would argue that's not enough, right? That you need more ketamine than just successions. Successions do a good job of rebuilding some of your neurology, but you really need like months worth of like regular reinforcement in order to build out the healthy brain that works properly.

[00:29:39] and so that gets to be a very expensive path and probably not the one for people that have lower income. But I think an equally, effective path to be using the telemedicine providers, and they're easy to see in the providers by state grid on the site because they are licensed in a lot of states, right?

[00:30:00] So you'll

[00:30:01] Molly: saw that. I love how it's visual. You can see XXX, like, oh, they're in Maryland and Illinois and

[00:30:07] Rob: right, right. And so those guys, you know, they're, the, the sessions tend to be less expensive, and, the prescription tends to be less expensive. So, you know, if you're looking at 600 per IV in a series of six IVs, that ends up being, you know, a couple thousand dollars or more. but with telemedicine, you know, you basically have an initial appointment, which is the consultation to make sure that you're a qualified candidate to get ketamine therapy and that you don't have any contraindicated drugs that you're taking or anything like that.

[00:30:39] And that can be, you know, 350 to 450. And then on a monthly basis to check up appointments, because you have to speak with the doctor once a month, generally speaking, is around 250 dollars, but the ketamine itself, rather than being, you know, this really high hundreds of dollars amount for a month's worth of ketamine at, say, 400 milligrams, which is reasonable dose.

[00:31:03] It's definitely strong enough dose to continue the reinforcement. runs around 50 or 60 dollars through a mail in or a pharmacy that's national that will mail you the ketamine in some sort of a, you know, portable format like a trophy or an RDT.

[00:31:19] Molly: Right. Mm

[00:31:20] hmm. Mm

[00:31:21] Rob: I know you mentioned people without insurance, and of course, those are out of pocket costs for somebody without insurance.

[00:31:26] But the nice thing is, is that the consultation appointment and the monthly follow up appointments that these providers provide super bills. So if you do have insurance, you can submit that to your insurance and get reimbursed everything but your copay. So, for the people that do have insurance that subsidizes it, you know, for me personally, that brings it down to 20 per appointment.

[00:31:48] so, you know, you take the 20 per appointment, plus the 50 or 60 for the ketamine and you're all in under 100 bucks a month when you can do that.

[00:31:59] Molly: Yeah, it's a huge difference. The, and I think a lot of what a lot of people don't understand is that the infusion, the amount, the experience that you have on the infusion can be had at home with a, like you said, a trochee that's like 400 milligrams.

[00:32:13] Rob: be, you know, there are. So, if you're uncomfortable with a psychedelic, let's say you're 1 of those individuals that's never done a psychedelic before. I tend to recommend that they do at least a couple sessions in clinic so that they've got a support network because ketamine is one of the stronger psychedelics and it can really take you out of yourself, in some pretty profound ways, which ultimately turns out to be a good thing because it distances you from those traumas and you're able to see yourself in the abstract and, you know, those trips are, I believe, are very beneficial.

[00:32:45] but if you're uncomfortable having the support network of a nurse there to hold your hand, or, you know, a doctor that can kind of walk you through whatever it is that you're experiencing and help ease a lot of that anxiety and it's about set and setting. Right? You don't want to go into academy and session anxious necessarily, because it compound that anxiety.

[00:33:05] And so you want to at least dip your toe in the water in a way that is safer. To the point where you can get comfortable with it and then take it on your own without having, you know, the concern about, what it's like to undergo sort of a psychedelic experience.

[00:33:22] Molly: Yeah, yeah, I completely agree that the, it makes sense for a lot of, in a lot of instances to start with the infusions in a clinic with the medical supervision and, you know, hopefully a therapist available and,that, that wraparound support. And then once you kind of know the ropes, maybe you can try the lozenges or the trochies or whatever at home. and it can be really important for the, A lot of people I know use the lozenges as, as maintenance between infusions as well, depending on what the dosages are,

[00:33:52] but

[00:33:52] Rob: Well, and I'd recommend that you prequalify your clinic with, whether or not they only do IVs or whether they do a combination of IVs and trochees or RDTs. Personally, I prefer RDTs over trochees. Trochees are a waxy based lozenge that you put under your tongue and it melts over, say, 30 minutes, right?

[00:34:11] And they don't taste very good for most people. And they'll add flavors to them, which makes them taste even worse.

[00:34:17] Molly: weirder somehow. Yeah.

[00:34:19] Rob: yeah, exactly. So, I, and the other problem with Prokes is because they're a wax that melts at potty temperature, they have to be kept cold. and, you know, with mail order, you know, it could sit in your mailbox in a, a July day and melt, and all the ketamine goes to a corner.

[00:34:36] So if you try to split the troche to, you know, reduce the dose, you, you, it doesn't work very well. and so RDTs are a more stable format. They don't melt in the heat. that's a rapid dissolve tablet is what I'm referring to. And basically that's something you put under your tongue. And if you've ever taken like a Claritin that's rapid dissolve, it takes maybe 30 seconds to a minute to dissolve completely.

[00:34:58] And then instead of having the wax tablet under your tongue that's melting over a 30 minute time, you just hold the spit from the RDT in your mouth for like a half hour. And the reason that. That method of administration is used just because ketamine absorbs most effectively through mucous membranes.

[00:35:15] And the more ketamine that absorbs to the mucous membranes, the less intense the hangover from ketamine is going to be. So you've got first pass metabolism and second pass metabolism, and first pass metabolism is the mucous membrane. And the second pass metabolism is when you swallow it, and it goes down into your stomach and then gets processed through your liver.

[00:35:36] And so it's ideal to process as much of the ketamine through a mucous membrane when you're using an at home method as is possible. So, you know, you want to hold it in your mouth 30 minutes, 45 minutes, whether it's trochee, whether it's RDT, so that most of the ketamine can be absorbed through mucous membrane.

[00:35:55] And then some providers recommend that instead of swallowing, the ketamine that you've held in your mouth, that you spit it out. And that, it has been shown to reduce the hangover effect of ketamine. Although when you swallow it, you're going to get a more intense effect, right? Because if you spit it out, there's some part of the ketamine that you're just not metabolizing.

[00:36:15] And when you swallow it, then you get a little more. And one of the advantages to swallowing it is that you know exactly how much ketamine you've taken. If you started with 400 milligrams and you put it under your tongue for a while and then you swallow it, you've taken exactly 400 milligrams. If you leave it in your mouth for a while and then spit it out, it could be any amount of, Academy really, because, you know, there's different variables to affect how well it stores.

[00:36:41] so, when you're looking at a provider, just bring it back around, providers only do IVs and that can be a very expensive path to me. Right? Sometimes it's often not a problem to do the 6 IDs and people can. You know, work out financing or, or, you know, have the amount to be able to do that. But that isn't enough.

[00:37:00] Like I said previously, you need to do periodic maintenance and in some fashion for some people. That's once every 3 days for several months for other people. That's like, once a week for several months, or, or, you know, once a month for several months. But regardless of what format or frequency, you take it that regular reinforcement is important in order to continue to build out that neurology.

[00:37:23] From a physical perspective, like I'm talking about, you know, that takes a long time to, and it needs a regular reinforcement in order to be able to build out completely. So when you look at a provider, you know, if you're looking at doing IVs, see if that provider is going to provide you with an at home option to follow up with.

[00:37:42] because some do, and some don't, and if you're stuck in an only IV world, then one, that frequency of reinforcement dosing isn't going to be as often, so you're not going to build out as quickly, and two, it's going to be much more expensive, because, you know, you're looking at another 600 IV once a month, right, so you're getting less frequency, and you're paying way more, so if you can get one that provides an at home option, then, you can dose more frequently, and I would recommend every three days for the first, Two or three months, then drop it down to once a week for two or three months, and then drop it down to once a month.

[00:38:18] And there have been times, like, after I was on the therapy for three years or four years that I went to, once every three months reinforcement, and I didn't have any reoccurrence of the symptoms anytime within those three months. So I know that, you know, once you've gotten to the point where you're healed, your reinforcements don't need to be as frequent, which is why I kind of recommend that titration schedule.

[00:38:39] Molly: Yeah. That's really helpful. I think that's, that's really helpful. There's no, I've found that very few prescribers even will tell all, give all of that information at once. You kind of have to figure it out and read between the lines. And, so I really appreciate you breaking that down. Cause I think that's really valuable.

[00:38:59] People don't understand kind of, I start with this regimen and then I slowly You know, taper it to that regimen or whatever. so thanks for describing that. I think on the website, you also give your own testimonial, which I found really, really powerful. and you mentioned your anchor puppy, Mira, which I just, I

[00:39:23] was wondering if you could tell that story.

[00:39:26] Rob: So, one of the things that is kind of key to ketamine therapy and in resolving triggers in particular is differentiating today's circumstances and whatever events might look similar to previous events that would trigger you, from those events, right? Because it's our gut feeling. It's our reptilian brain that, when we're traumatized, stores that stimulus as a pattern to invoke when we're triggered.

[00:39:58] And the whole biology behind it is that, as beings, right, when we're traumatized, we store that as a stimulus response pattern. And it's an evolutionary advantage because when our reptilian brain kicks in, which is a more primal brain, it's located closer to the brainstem,it, quickens our reflexes.

[00:40:17] So when we're triggered, that reptilian brain overrides our executive cognitive centers and quickens everything, but it doesn't have any rhyme or reason to it. It stored the result that we, when we, when we stored that stimulus pattern, we did something in response to that stimulus pattern. So your body has stored that stimulus and that automated and, and made that response automated, which is why there's no ri rhyme or reason or ration to it or, or rationalism to it.

[00:40:47] you, you, you found an effective way to deal with it in the past, and so your body says, okay, well, we'll just optimize that whole pathway so that the next time it happens, we can get to it. Really quickly. and obviously that's stemming from the survival instinct, which really has no place or time in today's modern society.

[00:41:06] You know, everybody expects you to deal with things in a rational way. so, I think when it comes to differentiating from those circumstances and the stimulus patterns that the reptilian brain stored and seeing ourselves subconsciously react with those triggers and that what reptilian brain. working through that on ketamine, it's important to be able to define for your mind, for that reptilian brain, that whatever's happening now, in today's circumstances, is not whatever that stimulus response was that it stored previously.

[00:41:45] and when you're on ketamine, in, in the ketamine experience itself, it's almost like you can engage in a dialogue between your conscious and subconscious, and you can tell your subconscious, listen, that, that. That stored stimulus pattern really isn't appropriate anymore. But it can help when you do that to be able to differentiate today from those events in the past, because that brain is really dumb, and it'll pick up patterns that don't exist.

[00:42:12] But, you know, because it's pretty primal, it doesn't have all the nuances of, you know, while I am with a different person or in a different house or whatever. Right. And so one of the things that I did in my therapy is that I had gotten a puppy that, was, you know, recent in, in terms of my therapy. And so as I worked through triggers, I would bond with my puppy, and like love her and, you know, hold her and give myself that visceral, like real, like, you know, tangible differentiator because she didn't exist when those stimulus patterns were, formed.

[00:42:52] And so now is a time and place where I've got a puppy that is, so I use that, you know, as odd as it sounds to differentiate now from then. So now my subconscious says, okay, well, there's a puppy here. So those stimulus response patterns that I formed in the past, don't really. They're not relevant because the puppy exists, and it sounds kind of like new age a little bit, but I found that to actually be incredibly effective, right?

[00:43:22] And even now, like, when I start to feel like there might be a trigger there, or, you know, I look at, like, the difference in my behavior from someplace where I might have been triggered to where I'm not triggered, she kind of factors in a little bit. It's like, yeah, well, she's around. And so, yeah, that is progress.

[00:43:39] Molly: Yeah, I find that so, that's such a great technique that it's like, it kind of, and to call it an anchor puppy, it seems like it anchors, she anchors you in the present,

[00:43:49] Rob: Yep, exactly.

[00:43:51] Molly: things are a lot better than they were when you were responding to whatever it is that triggered you back in the day,

[00:43:57] Rob: Right, and it doesn't have to be a puppy necessarily. I mean, I find her particularly helpful because she's such a loving being and my relationship with her is so healthy, but I mean, it could just be a different possession, something that you own now, you know, you could have like a pillow that you're a stuffed animal or whatever.

[00:44:13] It just says, you know, to that reptilian brain, this is part of the stimulus response pattern. And now that it exists, then that stimulus response is no longer part of my whole cycle.

[00:44:26] Molly: Yeah. I really love that giving it a tangible, you know, concrete,expression or, you know, put it, attaching it to a, something that's tangible and concrete. I have a little puppy myself asleep in the corner of the room, not a puppy, but a dog asleep in the corner of the room. And,it, it, I love the idea of it being a dog because our feelings toward dogs are so not complex, right?

[00:44:46] They're so simple. They're so loving. It's so positive.

[00:44:49] They love you back, you know?

[00:44:50] Rob: Yep. Yeah. And so there's times where I'll be on ketamine and we'll just, you know, she'll come and lay next to me and, you know, it's part of my bonding experience. Like, you know, it just really brings me to the now.

[00:45:03] Molly: I've had the same experience. Yeah. Bebop will kind of lay at my feet or something or, and while, while doing a lozenge and it really is comforting. Yeah.

[00:45:11] Rob: Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

[00:45:14] Molly: I was wondering whether you have any experience with or thoughts about the spiritual, experiences that a lot of people, describe on ketamine or the spiritual aspect of psychedelics. Mm hmm.

[00:45:27] Rob: some thoughts there. so

[00:45:30] Molly: hmm.

[00:45:31] Rob: I think. It's been shown in studies that the human brain has a region that's related to religious beliefs or spiritual beliefs. and that sometimes traumatizing experiences can activate that part of our brain. and so, you know, you'll hear of people having like a religious experience or a spiritual experience, and a lot of times it has to do with the activation of that part of the brain and reinforcement.

[00:45:56] And so, ketamine, When you're taking ketamine, there's a diagram on the guide, which shows, what happens to sheep when they take ketamine at a reasonable dose. And what it shows is that the brainwaves collapse for a period of time. And anecdotally, when the brainwaves collapse, that's attributed to what a lot of people experience as a near death experience with ketamine, because, you know, the flatlining of the brainwaves are the human body kind of perceives potentially as death.

[00:46:28] and so, that, that, that dynamic is, is, is part of the ketamine experience, but our minds are made up of neural networks, which are, you know, different, thought processes and different strategies that we have to invoke in daily life to be able to cope with different things. And so when the brain waves collapse, those neural networks collapse as a result.

[00:46:48] And that spiritual part of the brain collapses at the same time. and so as those neural networks come back online, they come back online in no predictable order and varying degrees. And I believe that some part of the spiritual experience is with the spiritual neural network coming back online and feeling really profound.

[00:47:06] And, you know, sometimes it's more profound and sometimes it's less profound. And maybe that's related to the particular point in time when that part of the brain comes back online. Now, all that said, You know, it is interesting that the brainwaves are collapsed and that people are perceiving that as a near death experience.

[00:47:21] Because, you know, if you think about when you could, when you actually die, you, your brainwaves go away. And so it might actually be, what we go through when we die proper. and personally, I've found that there's another side to things. When I, flatline brainwave wise. I feel like I'm back to a place that I would consider home.

[00:47:48] Like, and you know, in my own personal experience, there's a voice in the void that kind of started all this, that consciousness came before material reality. The material reality was created as a play thing to entertain that single voice in the void over time. and it broke into selves in order to be able to experience itself and stuff like that.

[00:48:10] But the thing is, is that I have also come to realize that while a lot of people get a spiritual experience out of ketamine, that my personal experience isn't really directly translatable to somebody else's because when we're interacting with that higher mind, it talks to us in the context of our own lives.

[00:48:29] It talks to us with the books we've read with the media we've watched with the particular context of that self. And so the messages that I get are meaningful to me and are related to my own personal experiences in my own lifetime and my own timeline. And so everybody else is going to get an experience that's similar that the teachings are usually very common, you know, but it's going to be in the context of their own lives.

[00:48:56] So whatever I describe isn't going to directly translate. that everybody's going to have the kind of their own experience of it. But what I can say is that, you know, I've been on the therapy six years and I probably ego died 40 or 50 times. And with each one of those ego tests, I feel like I was taken a little higher and taught a little more about like what the bigger picture might be to existence in general.

[00:49:22] and whether this is all a construct of that religious center in my mind, making things up or whether it's actually reality, the end result is, is that it makes me into a better person in my everyday life because I kind of have an understanding. of who I am as a being. And as I've gone through all those ego tests, I've aligned more and more as like a mini me of the higher mind.

[00:49:46] Molly: Hm.

[00:49:46] Rob: know, in my everyday life, I kind of reflect all that love and that unconditional acceptance. And, you know, I accept myself unconditionally, which is, you know, a lot of progress there in and of itself. But, that I become more and in line with that higher mind that I perceive when I'm on ketamine.

[00:50:07] And I think that that's something that a whole lot of people kind of experience, and they each in their own way kind of experience it. But, you know, I think that's part of what's happening.

[00:50:18] Molly: Yeah, I think that is such an interesting way to put it. I haven't heard it put that way, but it does sound familiar when you describe it as like being in line with that voice. or that sort of that one thing, whatever you want to call it. feeling more in tune or being an expression of it. I feel like that is a common, whether that voice is a Christian God or whatever, you know, for different people, it'll be different things, but.

[00:50:42] You feel more in touch with it. Yeah, I think that's a great way to put it. I know what you, when you said, it depends on your personal experiences, too. I think, it's probably true for a lot of people. It's definitely true for me that it, can reflect even the media that I've, ingested recently. So I remember I was listening to a lot of, Bill Withers and all of a sudden in my ketamine infusions, Bill Withers is there like cheering me on, you know, and,

[00:51:07] happy to see me improve. And I'm like, yeah, thanks Bill Withers.

[00:51:11] Rob: well, and you know, something that I've observed and, you know, I don't know, so I, I kind of see like coincidence as something that if it happens enough that there might be something more to it, right? Like, I'll be driving along and listening to a song and it'll say something about Texas and right in front of me will be a guy with the Texas plate.

[00:51:32] I live in Colorado, right? So that's not usual, right? You know, that kind of like synchronicity. Yeah.just gets my attention. Yeah, I don't know that there's anything to it. It could just be coincidence. There's no way to really tell because it's, you know, it's all it could be happenstance. And who knows, really?

[00:51:49] But I, you know, when I see enough of those coincidences, you know, I, I, I just take note. And so I was in Europe. about a month ago for three weeks, and we were traveling through a lot of different towns in Ireland and every town in Ireland has a cathedral. I guess that, you know, in order to be a town, you have to have a church.

[00:52:09] So anyway.

[00:52:10] Molly: spend a lot of time in Ireland. I have a lot of family there, so I know exactly what you mean.

[00:52:14] Rob: So, these churches are built, you know, in 1100, 1200, and they're amazing works of art. And, there are some churches that have, like, towers on the outside, and on those towers they have arches that reach up to the top of the, top of the church. And so, I'm communicating with a colleague of mine that's in,you're up and I'm talking about that.

[00:52:37] I'm like, it's like out of a video game, right? If I were climbing up the church, I'd have to climb across that like bridge that holds the tower and he's like, that's called a flying buttress. And then my wife and I are watching Jeopardy that night and, you know, the intro to Jeopardy and it says, what is a flying buttress?

[00:52:53] Right. So what are the odds of something like that? Right. And again, it could just be happenstance, but those kind of coincidences seem to be far more common when, you know, as I've gone through the therapy than when, you know, previously, maybe I just noticed some more. I don't know. But what I will say is that I've come to learn that that kind of thing isn't to be feared, that it's just you reflecting back on yourself through reality in whatever way, you know, that happens to happen.

[00:53:22] And so I just take it as a message that I'm on the right path.

[00:53:27] Molly: I love that, that the, it can be creepy or it can be a good sign.

[00:53:34] Rob: Right. Yeah, exactly.

[00:53:37] Molly: so, I kind of have three final questions that are related. There are three groups of people and I'm wondering if you can tell me what you wish each of them knew about ketamine. So, I would say like, is there something you wish the whole public, like general public knew about ketamine that they don't know or a misconception or something like that?

[00:53:57] Rob: Well, I think It's still working its way into the mainstream, and what I would say is I wish the general public knew just how effective ketamine was across a wide variety of mental illnesses. One of the things that we do in the site is we have a questionnaire for people that have taken ketamine, and it tracks how long they've been on ketamine, what methods of administration they've used, and for a wide variety of mental illnesses, how effective it was.

[00:54:23] And what's surprising about that survey is that across a wide variety of mental illnesses, too many to list here, ketamine is a great tool and helps resolve, you know, pretty much, I can't say everything, but a lot of the different psychological or mental illnesses that people have. So I would love to see it used as a more widespread tool, right?

[00:54:45] you know, it's used as the last line of defense for people that are, you know, treatment resistant, further. You know, anti depression medications and stuff. And I think personally it should be used as the first line of defense because of how effective it is. So I just wish that it were more mainstream and I wish more people understood that it's a really effective tool for being able to resolve a lot of different things.

[00:55:07] Molly: I completely agree. It makes no sense that we use the thing that doesn't work as well first.

[00:55:13] And once those fail, you can use the thing that works more often.

[00:55:17] Rob: Yeah,

[00:55:18] Molly: Yeah. What about people struggling with mental illness? Is there something, I mean, it could be the same thing really, but is there something that you wish they knew about ketamine that we haven't already talked about?

[00:55:29] Rob: well, I think more aim towards them is that, you know, ketamine is a very effective tool, but in it, in and of itself doesn't do all the work. And so, you know, we, as individuals have our own individual struggles. And even if we've got identical mental illnesses that manifest slightly different for each person.

[00:55:51] And so there's a lot of introspection and there's a lot of self work that needs to be done in conjunction with ketamine. So, you know, I would say it's good to have a ketamine trained therapist. It's good to have, you know, maybe a psychologist that understands the dynamics of ketamine. to help support you through your own individual journey.

[00:56:15] So like me personally, when I first started going through a lot of the processing of ketamine, I didn't have the vocabulary that I wanted to be able to understand and express the dynamics that I saw within my own mind. So like I'm a technologist and my wife is a doctor and we each have really deep vocabularies in our industry.

[00:56:34] Like she can name every single muscle I've got in my body and I can name any, you know, particular technology and its constituent parts. So I knew that vocabulary made a big difference because like, you know, when I speak to other technologists, I can be very specific about very meaningful terms with the wide vocabulary that helps really narrow in and identify exactly what it is that I'm saying.

[00:56:57] But not everybody understands their vocabulary. Well, I realized that about me. I was kind of a neophyte when it came to the mental, like, picture that I had in my mind and the vocabulary that I had about working with things. So the therapist really helped me build out a mental vocabulary. You know, she's the one that productized mine and, like, you know, taught me how to balance and rationalize and still use emotion, those kind of things.

[00:57:20] And so that therapy can be really to help you work through whatever the particulars are of way the mental illness manifests in your life.

[00:57:30] Molly: And that that work, right, that the medicine doesn't do everything. I think that's so important.

[00:57:35] And that the therapist is there to help you do the things that the medicine doesn't do by itself.

[00:57:40] Rob: right. And, and to be fair, ketamine is a drug therapy and, it does a lot, it does do some of the heavy lifting, maybe a lot of a heavy lifting, but that doesn't mean that, you know, you have all the tools at your disposal to be able to infernalize things in a healthy way without some help.

[00:57:57] Molly: Yeah. I think that's well said. and what about friends and family? I personally have experienced. People being kind of freaked out when I brought up ketamine, you know, getting little emojis back that are like wide eyed, like, what are you doing?is there anything that you would, hope that, friends and family of people with mental illness or people who are thinking about trying ketamine would know about the, the medicine?

[00:58:22] Rob: Well, you know, I think that's where the guide comes in handy. and, you know, I recommend to some patients that they have their families read the guide so that they can get a better idea of what the ketamine experience is firsthand.because I think education is a big part of it and family can be a double edged sword because when you're suffering from a mental illness or even just trauma, let's say you don't even have a mental illness.

[00:58:46] You just have like, you know, those different stimulus response patterns and, Irrational behaviors. family can play on that. They can use those to manipulate you. And a lot of family dynamics sort of revolve. Around triggers and, you know, manipulating each other. And so there, I would classify family in 2 different categories.

[00:59:07] 1 is the supportive family is open minded and looking at you and wants what's in your best interest. And then there's going to be the other part of the family that selfish and is using those triggers to manipulate you and doesn't want to see you change.and so, for me, what that translated into is, you know, excommunicating some of my family that wouldn't adapt and adopt more healthy behaviors alongside with me, because I'm not going to continue to live a life where I'm manipulated through triggers.

[00:59:37] So, in that case, it was best just, like, not communicating with those family members anymore. But the family members that are open minded and supportive and, you know, looking for things in your best interest, I think part of it is in their education and that's why I point to the guide. But I also think, it's worth working through some of the things that you might be experiencing, especially if you're on at home therapy, with those supportive people by your side.

[01:00:05] So it's okay to be open About what it is that you're going through, and maybe they don't understand exactly what the experience of ketamine is like, because they haven't taken it, but you can talk about, like, the different observations that you're making of your own psyche. You can talk about the different transformations that you're undergoing and, you know, it's okay to ask them for positive reinforcement to give their perspective on your behaviors.

[01:00:31] And when they see improvement, because, you know, again, those are the things that you want to be encouraging. And so I, I, I guess the bottom line there is, is that I would spend a little bit of time identifying which family members are going to be the ones that you lean on for support, which family members aren't going to be supportive and, you know, adapt accordingly.

[01:00:51] Molly: Yeah.

[01:00:52] Rob: and then the more the family member knows, the more the supportive family member knows, like going to the guide and reading through it and understanding a little bit more, you know, what, because the guide goes into a great deal of depth about what ketamine is like over, you know, lots of years of experience.

[01:01:07] that will help them be able to empathize.

[01:01:09] Molly: Yeah. And I think that, right, the more you talk about it, the more, the more it's not scary. And also the more, constructive it seems, you know, they're,

[01:01:19] they're excited about it for you. Yeah. And

[01:01:24] Rob: you want to send her, you know, surround yourself with in life, right? And now, like anymore, after six years on the therapy, you know, like I was like, because I've come to trust myself and, I, the people around me are loving, supportive, you know, all my relationships are very constructive.

[01:01:41] Yeah. You know, I've made sure to, you know, build out a network of people around me that see the best in me and, you know, want to see me succeed.

[01:01:54] Molly: reinforce that in you. That's such a, a great place to be. You know, you look around your life and

[01:02:02] you see only supportive things. It's so fantastic.

[01:02:05] Rob: Yeah, it is.

[01:02:08] Molly: is there anything else that you want to add before we say goodbye?

[01:02:14] Rob: Well, I guess one of the things I want to mention about the site. So the guide is a firsthand experience and throughout the guide, I pretty much cover everything else you'll find in the site. but the guide was evolved over 6 years. and so, like I said, there's not much that's controversial in it, but a lot of people want to know more about different topics.

[01:02:34] And so the guide is peppered with hyperlinks to more in depth pages behind the scenes that go into. each topic in depth, and then they also link to relevant studies and relevant articles that, back up whatever assertions are made in those, in those background pages. So I would encourage people to not only spend the time to read the guide, which is a pretty quick read overall, like if you consider what all it covers, but also anything that they're interested in, go ahead and drill into those links and follow that through to find out, you know, whatever they're curious about.

[01:03:11] Molly: cool. That's really helpful. yeah, I think the, the ability to drill in is so valuable, right? Because, there's kind of no end to this information.

[01:03:21] Rob: Right.

[01:03:22] Molly: yeah, and to have a trusted source is so incredibly valuable. So I want to thank you again for building it because it provides such a needed resource to people who really, you know, need a hand.

[01:03:34] It's such a, it's such a valuable, valuable resource to people who deserve a hand

[01:03:38] Rob: Well, thank you for thanking me. And just to give you a little more context, my wife is a doctor, and so, she influences individual lives and heals people one on one. And in my career, I don't really get to work with any individuals. I work with broad groups of users, because of the technology that I'm, you know, I'm designing technology.

[01:04:00] And so, you know, the people that I affect are very far removed from the things that I do. And so I was really grateful for the people that helped me along the way and helped me heal into the individual that I am today. And so looking at my wife and her, you know, kind of cause and purpose in life, she was encouraging me to find my purpose.

[01:04:20] And so the site is kind of a, driven, and the reason that I've got passion for it is because having seen what she does, I decided that I wanted to help heal just the way that people had helped heal me because they found that very rewarding and I knew that I would find it rewarding as well. So that's really what the site is, is a labor of love and it's driven by a motivation to help other people.

[01:04:42] And so by saying that, I, I just want to make sure everybody understands that I'm always available to talk to anyone and that I'm happy to answer any questions. And the, you know, ketamine journey can be, difficult and complicated, and if anybody wants support or, you know, wants an outside perspective, I'm available.

[01:05:01] You can find my contact info at the very top of the guide, and, you know, I'm happy to help in any way.

[01:05:06] Molly: That's so valuable. I love that you, that's very generous of you. it's sorely needed. So thank you so much, Rob. I really appreciate you taking the time and, I encourage everybody to go check out the site and there'll be links to it in the show notes and in the transcript and everywhere.

[01:05:21] So, thank you so much, Rob, and, hope our paths meet again.

[01:05:26] Rob: Likewise.

[01:05:28] Molly: I hope you enjoyed that episode. Rob and I create this stuff in the hopes that it'll help people. So share this episode with a friend with your therapist with that old classmate, who's a doctor now. Sherise with the most open-minded older lady in your life and all her Facebook friends. Ketamine insights is for everyone. The more online engagement we have, the more the algorithms promote us to new listeners. So please take a moment to review us on Spotify, apple podcasts, or wherever you listen. We don't come out on a super regular schedule because of my illnesses. But you can make sure you don't miss future episodes by clicking follow or subscribe on your favorite podcast app. Ketamine insights is created, edited and produced by me, Molly Dunn. Our fantastic theme song is by solid state symphony. See you soon.

[01:06:25] And until then, Remember to advocate for yourself and never ration your joy.