Guests Joanna Barstad and Cory Donald talk REALTOR® Wellness and how to refocus attention on the things that truly matter.
Welcome to In Your Area, a podcast designed by AREA to update, educate, and refresh your knowledge on topics that matter to you as Realtors®, brokers, and industry stakeholders. Listen on the go, in your car, at a coffee shop wherever your day takes you. This is a podcast designed with today's busy Realtor®in mind. Now here's today's host, Joanna Barstad.
Joanna:Welcome to In Your Area, a podcast for Alberta Realtors®on the move,. Podcasting from the board room of the Alberta Real Estate Association, I am your host, Joanna Barstad. Welcome to this episode, Realtor Wellness. I am a realtor of 21 years currently at Royal Lepage benchmark in Calgary. I'm involved with several committees and currently sit on the Calgary Real Estate Board, as a Director. I am passionate about fitness, including biking, skiing, hiking, and getting out and enjoying the culture that Calgary has to offer. Joining me today is Cory Donald, of Forward Psychology and Wellness, known as Edmonton's run and walk psychologist. Cory is a registered psychologist and the founder of Forward Psychology and Wellness based in Edmonton. Cory provides psychotherapy for clients in office and outdoors on the move. Working from a foundation of positive psychology. He believes in the pursuit of human flourishing. Cory is a much sought after presenter and is renowned for is honest and direct communication style. He champions individuality, creativity and diversity. Doo, doo, doo! That's like your super power. Thanks for being here today. Cory. Tell us a little bit about why we are here and why you are here.
Cory:Okay, awesome. Thank you very much for having me! I'm really excited to be here. You know, when I looked at the opportunity, I was excited to come in and to share some thoughts on, realtor wellness and, I think the podcast idea just in and of itself is a really cool thing. I think it's great that, agents, and folks in the profession are able to connect to some of these podcasts and maybe find some direction and some information that will help them. So I think that's great and I'm really excited to be here. One of the things for me that I think is really important in terms of just the direction that we're taking today is that in no way are my words meant to be prescriptive in any way. And so what I know is that we all deal with things in our own way but hopefully through the discussion that we're going to have today, realtors are able to reflect on and even evaluate some of their own approaches and strategies for striving for and maintaining balance and overall wellness in their lives. I think it goes without saying that as somebody who is not a real estate agent, you know, I'm super mindful of the fact that I've never walked a day in the shoes. And so you know, certainly I would want to make sure that I respect the profession 100% through our conversation, which I intend to do. Some of the threads that I think we should be able to weave through our conversation today as it relates to realtor wellness; things like self care, self determination. I think we'll probably find ourselves talking about balance as well as control. And I would think that those things will probably come up for us. And I guess my hope today is that you know, we can have some positive impact through our discussion. So, you know, I think in my mind it would be a success if we were able to support one agent out there, somebody in the profession that hear's this conversation, listens to this podcast and takes something positive from it. I think for me that would be a success.
Joanna:Okay, great. I'm just going to go back a bit aside from what you are doing now, your father, you currently lived in a household with a parent who is a realtor as well. So you are coming from a place not only as a psychologist, but also from a person who lived in a real estate household.
Cory:Yeah, you got it. That's exactly right. So when I say that I'm not attached to real estate professionally, what I am attached to is the lifestyle to a certain degree, that's for sure. Yeah. My Dad's been in real estate as an agent and a broker and connected to the profession in a number of different ways since as long as I can remember. So, certainly I've got a sense of what the lifestyle looked like from a family based perspective. That's for sure. Yeah.
Joanna:So one of the questions that I get from new realtors is about time management and quite a few realtors that I know will book plans with family or friends and then will be very reactive when a client calls and will have to call and cancel those plans. Is there any situations or anything you can say to help realtors devise a plan or a way to talk to their family and friends about how they're gonna maybe have to cancel plans or change plans or anything like that?
Cory:Yeah, probably the nature of the business right, would really lend itself to that. Which can absolutely be a challenge. I think the most important thing, or at least probably the first thing that we would look at is awareness. You know I often talk to clients about awareness being kind of the prerequisite for change. So I would suggest that awareness would come first. So are you aware of what these impacts are? And I think further to that, you know, being mindful of the impact both on the agent him or herself as well as the family and friend impact. So, you know, when we look at that it kind of creates a bit of a paradox in that you know, the agent is torn, you need to work, you need to make money and you know, and you need to put time in to be successful. But then on the flip side of that, you may feel guilty for missing things. And, that paradox can be a real challenge. You know if you're working hard, what ends up happening from a psychological perspective at least is you get a dopamine rush every time you start to succeed. And so what you find is you know if you make a deal or make a new contact, you get a dopamine rush. If you, you know, have a new listing, you get a dopamine rush, connect a buyer and seller dopamine rush, you know, all of those things, they feel really good. But then on the other side of that you know, although that, that starts to feel almost addictive, that success, on the other side of it is what's the impact that's, that's happening with family. So I think, I think if, you know, we could kind of break that down into, into how do we approach that. I think first and foremost, it's probably knowing that your choices are going to affect the people that you care about. I think that's probably the first thing. And knowing that there are always repercussions for it, right? It's going to affect yourself as well and your wellbeing. So talking to your partner is probably the first step. You know, as long as the adults in the relationship are kind of comfortable with what the direction looks like, you know, and what the expectations are, that's probably a good place to start kind of a mutual agreement or at least a mutual understanding. I think the other part of that too though is talking to children can be really tough. So as a family you certainly want to have the conversation, but overall I think it starts with the adults. So if you could first look at maybe having the conversation and including in that conversation a determination about what the non negotiable things are. So while it would feel as though the schedule is sort of all over the map, are there non-negotiable's as part of your family and friends? So you know our kids' school events, our kids' sporting games, you know, maybe one a week type thing. Is that a non negotiable? What about anniversaries and birthdays? Right? Are those things non-negotiable? So I guess looking at some blackout dates as a start, so sometimes where, you know, we're not going to adjust our schedule around these particular things would probably be a good place to begin. Then I think the other part of that too is, you know, longer term it's how does your family become a part of your team? Right? So I think it's a, it starts with awareness, uh, being really intentional with that, knowing what is going to happen in terms of the impact on both the agent and the family and then trying to figure out how do we as a collective, kind of make this work for all of us.
Joanna:Great. So just kind of going over that is, is really just sitting down with your family and figuring out, you know, maybe some five or ten non- negotiables that is very specific to, to what's important to you.
Cory:Yeah, exactly and I think we'll find ourselves talking about that what is important to you piece? For sure. That's absolutely imperative. And I think that you know, when I kind of use that term blackout dates and why it's exactly what I mean is, you know, what is it that we don't want to cross over into? What is it that as you put it"a non negotiable?" So yeah, I think that's probably a great place to start for sure.
Joanna:If you had to pick some non-negotiables that are important to you that can also be important for realtors, what would you say would be kind of some five or seven non-negotiables that you think all realtors should adopt?
Cory:Yeah. You know what, I struggle with that one and I'll tell you why. I think, I mean, I can give you my own for sure. I struggle with it because what I find professionally is that everybody that comes in has unique individual sort of non-negotiable's, right? I think the biggest thing there would foundationally be looking at is what does my family, what do I need and what does my family need in order to make this all work? Right? So some non-negotiables should probably include things like birthdays and anniversaries. Why don't we go there as, as low hanging fruit, but it's very much individualized. Right? And I think you know, the other part of it from a realtor's perspective, I think, you know, any profession its tough to generalize what those non-negotiables should be. But number one you know, what does the family need in order to feel as though it's, things are working right? But I think what we would be talking, like I, I wouldn't, I wouldn't be giving you five non-negotiables for me because I'm not an agent. But what I would talk about is what's the non-negotiable being developed through determining what's most important to you, if that makes sense. So it's like, you know, being reflective of your goals, right? Are my behaviors reflective of what my goals are? Are my behaviors, how I'm choosing to conduct myself, am I moving closer to where I want to be? Right? Am I presenting myself in an authentic way, right? Or is the way that I'm presenting myself in alignment with what my values are, those kinds of things. Right.
Joanna:How do you coach realtors on taking a day off as we are always on call and are there any steps or any advice that you can give us on how to let go of the phantom phone call that we always hear when we have the day off?
Cory:That's a good question. Yeah, I mean a day off, right? How do you define a day off? I guess for individuals we would have to look at, for me it kind of sounds something like this when people come into my office; there's really no problem unless you tell me that there's a problem. So if not taking a day off isn't a problem for a realtor and this falls into that category of awareness, you know, if not taking a day off is not a problem than we really don't have anything to work with otherwise. Again, I think we're talking boundaries here and I think the other thing we're talking about is self care. So, you know, when you're looking at, you know, how do I, how do I make sure that I look after myself? You know, it's important in order to be successful to know that you've got to kind of put your energy into different areas of your life. And, you know, we will talk about that I think a little bit more. Where do I put the energy and if I need some time off to sort of recuperate, right. You talked about at the beginning how, you know, you'd like to get out into nature and those kinds of things. I mean we're talking there about balance. Honestly it's going to come down to some scheduling and some choice and I think it actually fits into the blackout dates idea too, where, you know, maybe I need to schedule days off regardless of what's coming up?
Joanna:I read that you do some of your coaching outdoors as well. So you're in Edmonton and it looks like you kind of run and walk along the river path. If we had 10, 15, 20 minutes that we weren't seeing clients, where would you want a realtor to spend time? Like would you say go out, walk around? Would you say like what would be something that would be beneficial to just recharge a realtor?
Cory:Yeah. That's awesome. Good question. Great question. Actually, I think what you find is just being outdoors is probably key, right? I know in Calgary you get a lot of Chinooks, so the weather in Calgary is somewhat more conducive I think to getting outside sometimes in the winter and spring, summer, fall, obviously it's beautiful, but definitely getting outside and what we find is that you know, when we're outdoors and we're active, whether that's just a walk around the block or it's a run through a river valley or those types of things, you know you open up your mind to different ways of thinking. So, so we find that when you're outdoors, you're more creative, right? And it doesn't take very long. You, you know, you mentioned 10 minutes, 15 minutes. If you can go 30 minutes, that would be even better. Even over the lunch break and if you could leave your phone on your desk or in your vehicle, that would be another beneficial piece. Just to get outside, get moving, open up those different ways of thinking. It really does create an element of wellbeing that I think can help you sort of refresh and refocus when you come back, for sure.
Joanna:Okay. Cory, what would you suggest to a new realtor on how to set boundaries with clients? Friends, family for personal time,
Cory:You know, when I look at it, it's a, you know, having not experienced it myself in terms of the profession. I would say that in any profession when you're just starting out, especially, it may seem as though the balance is a little bit out of whack because your time in is a little bit more than your time out is, you're trying to get established and I can certainly respect this. You know, being mindful of that and how and the impacts of it is really important as well. And I'd still be looking at the balance even though, you know, if it is swayed towards the profession in the first few years, I think we do still have to look at what is the impact of the imbalance I suppose at that point. And it might mean that newer agents are just trying to put different pieces of the team together, which might include people like you a mentor in the business. I would say a psychologist, maybe their physician, those kinds of things, maybe even a personal trainer, right, and a spouse and a partner just you know, trying to make sure that they've got a team around them. And then again, it comes down to awareness, right? Am I aware first and foremost that I even need to set boundaries? I think that with the explosion of social media as you've mentioned, and that sort of 24 hour access, boundaries are incredibly important to establish. And I would imagine that that's the case for newer realtors especially. For me, I think the following steps would be really important and the first would be am I aware that I need boundaries? And as simple as that sounds oftentimes that's kind of the first sort of key that unlocks the door. So first and foremost, am I even aware that I need boundaries? And after I've become aware that I need some boundaries, I'm going to choose what those boundaries need to look like and I'm going to choose them based on my priorities. And that's going to include both work and family and friends. Right. So first of all I'm aware. Second of all, I'm going to choose and then third I'm going to implement the boundaries. And finally the last one is I know that I'm going to adjust if I need to, and again, that's that flexibility piece that really important. One thing for sure about boundaries in general is that as soon as we set them or establish them, there will be some feedback on them for sure. And the feedback isn't always positive. Sometimes the feedback feels a little bit like push back. So, um, that's kind of a boundary piece there for sure. I can only imagine how difficult it is with 24 hour access to product right now and cell phone numbers and texts and social media. I can only imagine the challenge. Certainly some boundaries would be important.
Joanna:Because I think realtors, they understand that they're not balanced. Like I'm not balanced. We all Understand that I think we almost need a roadmap sometimes to understand like, we know we're not balanced. What are some of the things that we can work on and how do we identify, you know, where we're at or where we're going and then how I need help or, because a lot of realtors won't go for help unless they have like this,"Aha" or there's a trigger point or the tipping point of them going, somebody saying we're going to break up.
Cory:I 100% agree with you. And I think that's the ultimate fear. And I think what that actually comes down to more of a conversation of proactive healthy habits. Right? And so how am I looking after the now so that I don't hit that drop off the cliff situation? Right. I ended up with an impaired, or I break my, you know, my partner leaves me or you know we go bankrupt or whatever. Right? Like how, how do I manage this so that shit doesn't go sideways at a certain point in my career? I agree with that. And oftentimes, unfortunately, I think what you're saying Joanna and I respect it so much is that, and I'll say this too, there's two things here. Um, the first one is, holy crap, what a seductive field. What a seductive profession and we talked a little bit about the dopamine kick that we get when we are successful and when we're moving towards our goals. You make a sale and you know, or connect a buyer and a seller in some way or, or whatever the case may be, you get a dopamine kick that's addictive. You can see how work would become a very addictive thing. And the problem with that is that if it becomes so addictive that you allow, or inevitably everything else seems to start to fall away, eventually the cycle turns. And you may be not flying as high as you were and all of those other pieces of the grounds already dropped out. Right? And so we come all the way back around to awareness and goals and self awareness, self understanding, those kinds of things and balance.
Joanna:It's interesting that you see that. You say that it's addictive because of the dopamine. It is that Wolf on Wall Street kind of mentality and real estate attracts a certain type of a person who wants that lifestyle. Like I'm going to be a"baller", I'm going to go out and drink. Like we get really big highs and then when we get the big lows where it's the market that we're not in control, that is this tailspin of us going, you know what the"hell is going on?" And, and then we're like back-peddling on trying to create habits that we never, ever were able to create because we were just"go, go, go." It's like fast paced.
Cory:And there's so much there, right? I mean, one of the things that you're talking about is that you still use the analogy of the marathon. Again. You put the training in for when you're not, you know, you're not necessarily going to need it. You know that you've done it already. You're there, you've run the miles, you've got there, you're ready to go. Or it's the same as you learn how to change a tire in your garage so that when you need it, it's available to you. Right? When you're on Deerfoot and it's minus 25 you know how to change your tire. So you put the groundwork in advance. I'm always talking to clients about using the strategies that we come up with in our interactions, in therapy, when they don't need them, because then they're accessible when they do need them. So there's a part of that there that I think fits here too, where how am I laying a foundation of balance? How am I laying a foundation of balance that will enable me to ride out the lows and the highs? Right? And so the other thing that we talk about often in my office is, you know, and your point is so important, yes, there are huge highs and potentially huge lows in your industry. I would be looking at, and I talk to clients about this all the time, regardless of the industry that they're in, how do we keep you in sort of the middle ground, right? So your highs aren't turning you into a god and your lows aren't kicking you into the gutter. Right. Okay. How do you write that out? And again, I think it comes down to the work that you put in, whether things are good or bad, where you develop that foundation, if that makes sense.
Joanna:Right. Well because real estate is, I don't know many other businesses where you have a culture of, you know, you compare yourself with others, so you put in all this time, all the time and you see other success and then you're not getting the same success. And to continue to put that time in without seeing success is so challenging on your psyche, you kind of go"I'm a loser". Like nobody wants to work with me. And the more desperate you get, the more desperate the public sees of that and that's where I'm going to get the bad like used car salesman kind of analogy.
Cory:So you, you've opened a conversation, you know about a lot of things there I think that are really important. I think when we're looking at what our behaviors are like, one of the most important things that we should be looking at is, are my behaviors reflective of my goals? So does this, how I'm behaving, does this reflect what my goals are? That's first and foremost. The second one would be asking yourself, the way that I'm choosing to behave, is it moving me closer to where I want to be? I think that's a good question as well. And then the third question that I think is really important and it's going to bring us all the way back around to your comparing comment. Am I presenting myself authentically? So am I presenting myself in a way that reflects and is in alignment with my values? And I think that's important as well. And those things get really tricky when we find ourselves under stress and under pressure to perform and needing to make sales and those kinds of things. When we find ourselves backed into a corner, it changes the way our behavior comes across sometimes. So being mindful of that, it's really important when you mentioned this idea of comparing ourselves to others that doesn't happen obviously just in real estate, that happens all over the place and in every industry. And reflecting on the fact that you're first and foremost becoming aware that you're doing it, reflecting on the fact that this is what you're doing is important. The other thing that becomes really important as you alluded to as well is what am I saying about myself to myself? Because oftentimes what will happen is we start to realize when we really look at our thoughts, my thoughts have become pretty self defeating. And I'm starting to live up to the expectations I'm setting for myself in terms of the way that I'm speaking to myself, which it sounds almost counterintuitive that your negative thoughts would start to, to drive you lower but it does.
Joanna:Do you ever ask clients to get off social media for the idea of they see the pretty picture, everybody's doing all this business, they're looking amazing; they're healthy, they're in the gym and in actual fact. Yeah. What ends up happening is you know, you're getting somebodys highlight reel. Right? Right. And so it's completely inauthentic. Now that being said, social media is wonderful for, you know, doing business and those kinds of things and presenting ourselves in a way that's you can take time to really develop your social media presence.
Cory:It can do great things. But if you're comparing yourself personally to, or even professionally, perhaps in your industry to somebody's social media feed, yeah. You're comparing yourself to something that's probably fictional in a lot of ways. So the highlight reel. Yeah. That's what it is, right? Everybody's on vacation. I often tell my clients, you know, nobody actually has all their shit together. Nobody does. We've all got piles of it in different places. We're all trying to manage it in our own ways. Nobody's got it all together even though their social media feed would tell you otherwise. But saying that, how do you become self aware? Like there's a lot of people out there that are not self aware. Like what do you tell people, you know, when you talk about finding their true self, some of it comes a little bit maybe more naturally than others. It kind of goes back to that comment I made earlier about, you know, there's no problem if there is no problem. For some people it does take a life event maybe or a situation to kind of bring things into focus. Sometimes it takes people, it takes something to happen around them for them to sort of reevaluate them self. You know, their behaviors and their intentions and also, you know, one of the keywords that we have already talked about is values, right? If you can determine what you value, there's like all kinds of different ways to do that. You could go online and find a value list and print it off and circle what matters to you. You know, you could start to look at those things to determine, okay, what matters to me and find out the way that I am behaving professionally and personally. Does that align with my values?
Joanna:Is there anything else that you want to touch on that you think would benefit realtors either now, in the future or helping them cope with life/work balance?
Cory:Yeah. You know what? I think a takeaway this isn't specific to real estate agents, but this is all of us. There's a you know, psychologists and psychiatrists, a lot of us are a part of this too. And I'd see a lot of other health care professionals as well. A holistic approach to wellness is becoming more and more important and probably more prevalent. So what I would say is that yeah, reflecting on what you need and what you value, reflecting on your behavior and whether or not those things are in alignment and also looking at how do you build a team around you. And for some that will include family, for some that may include a psychologist or a coach of some kind, for some that you know, will likely include a, a physician. I can't say enough how important it is to go and see your doc and get a checkup. Right. For some people that might include some yoga and meditation and those kinds of things; that self care approach, but how do I build a team around me that is going to help me kind of live, I guess essentially the way that I want to live in alignment with and what I value and be what my goal.
Joanna:That is great to know, because I do agree building a team and whether it's a team of family members or whether it's a tribe and a team in your office, one that allows you to when you're down pick you up and vice versa. Because I do believe that the team aspect is going to help all of us better ourselves.
Cory:Well, what we know for sure is that there's going to be ups and there's going to be downs. And so, you absolutely nailed it when you talk about a team in different contexts and, and I think that's bang on. I think in an ideal world, you've got some team members that are a part of your work life and your professional life. And then you've got some team members that are part of your health and wellness life. And again, you know, we could name a bunch of different professions and individuals and those kinds of things, but ultimately it's who do you feel as though you need to, to help you be who you want to be.
Joanna:Thank you Cory, for your words of wisdom! AREA members, we want to hear from you! Your feedback and suggestions for future podcast episodes will be critical to making sure we make this the strongest resource for you. We invite you to send that feedback through communications@albertarealtor.ca. Thanks to all who took the time to listen. We hope to see you the next time we are"I Your Area."