Cuyahoga Metropolitan Housing Authority CEO and CLPHA President Jeffery K. Patterson sits down with CLPHA Executive Director Sunia Zaterman to discuss the history of the Choice Neighborhoods Initative (CNI). Sacramento Housing and Redevelopment Agency Executive Director La Shelle Dozier also joins Jeffery to highlight Sacramento's $320 million redevelopment of Mirasol Village, which began with a $30 million CNI grant. You'll also learn if Hope I through Hope V preceded Hope VI and the Choice Neighborhoods Initiative.
Thanks for listening to To The Point, a podcast of the Council of Large Public Housing Authorities.
Cuyahoga Metropolitan Housing Authority CEO and CLPHA President Jeffery K. Patterson sits down with CLPHA Executive Director Sunia Zaterman to discuss the history of the Choice Neighborhoods Initative (CNI). Sacramento Housing and Redevelopment Agency Executive Director La Shelle Dozier also joins Jeffery to highlight Sacramento's $320 million redevelopment of Mirasol Village, which began with a $30 million CNI grant. You'll also learn if Hope I through Hope V preceded Hope VI and the Choice Neighborhoods Initiative.
Thanks for listening to To The Point, a podcast of the Council of Large Public Housing Authorities.
[00:00] Jeffery K. Patterson: Welcome, welcome and welcome. My name is Jeffrey K. Patterson. I'm the chief executive officer of the Kylega Metropolitan Housing Authority and the president of the Council of Large Public Housing Authority. I'd like to welcome you to the point. Today we're going to talk about the Choice Neighborhoods program. So our first guest is going to be Sanya Zaderman. She's the executive director of Clapper. How are things going today for you?
[00:32] Sunia Zaterman: They're going well, Jeff. And thank you so much for welcoming me back to your second official podcast.
[00:39] Jeffery K. Patterson: Return engagements are good things. We'll see how this one goes, and then you'll just keep rocking and rolling with them.
[00:44] Sunia Zaterman: Thanks, Jeff.
[00:45] Jeffery K. Patterson: Today we want to talk about choice Neighborhoods, and I couldn't think of a better person provide a little bit of insight in terms of the history, how it came about, why is it so important? So those are the first questions I'm going to pose to you.
[00:58] Sunia Zaterman: Well, thanks for this opportunity to talk about this important initiative. And it really is the culmination of many years of funding and implementation to really get to a place where we've got a fund that effectively catalyzes neighborhood transformation. And that is what the Choice Neighborhoods Initiative is about. And it's really in the name that we want to develop neighborhoods of choice, where people want to live, where there are amenities and supports for their life outcomes. And I think the story that Lachelle will tell is really that story of transforming and catalyzing a neighborhood that was isolated, physically, socially, economically, environmentally bringing, really creating a whole new neighborhood with the investment, the seed investment of choice neighborhoods, but really catalyzing another $300 million in terms of investing in that neighborhood. If you don't mind, I'll give you a little bit of history on how we got here. As I mentioned in our lost podcast, when we talked about the New York City Housing Authority, there was a commission on severely distressed public housing that was formed in the early 90s with a clear recognition that we had disinvested in this portfolio. They concluded that about 6% of the stock was what they called severely distressed, meaning it hit all of those categories socially, physically, economically isolated, deteriorating physical conditions. And what was really needed was a holistic approach to revitalize these neighborhoods. And what came of that recommendation was the Hope Six program, which many of you know that was funded for a number of years, a total of $6 billion, about $500 million a year, which was very robust funding that was really focused on the footprint of that public housing development and really revitalizing and redeveloping that housing stock in that neighborhood and oversight.
[03:10] Jeffery K. Patterson: One question. So we have always heard about Hope Six. Was there a Hope One through five, or did we just jump straight to six?
[03:19] Sunia Zaterman: Well, that is an excellent question that there are very few people who can talk to the history of that. There were earlier hope programs. Yes, some of the iterations came about under the first George Bush administration, and there was an attempt when Jack Kemp was the HUD secretary, to sell public housing to public housing residents. Of course, they were concerned because they were looking at developments that were deteriorated and needed a lot of investment. When Barbara Mccollsky became senator, barbara Mccollsky from Maryland became one of the sponsors, urban Revitalization demonstration is what it was originally called. She said, we're going to do a Hope program, but we're going to do what she considered a real Hope program, which was not selling off distressed stock, but investing in revitalizing it. And that's why she called it Hope Six. But there were earlier versions that focused on elderly housing. There was a version that focused on selling off public housing, but none of them really took hold the way Hope Six did.
[04:31] Jeffery K. Patterson: So to our listeners out here, we can confirm without fear of contradiction that there were other hopes other than Hope Six. So we got that straightened out. So now we could go back to what you were discussing in terms of Hope Six and how it evolved into what is now choice Neighborhood.
[04:51] Sunia Zaterman: Thanks for that question, because it just shows that this policy and legislative history is very complicated and convoluted. So the transition to choice neighborhoods happened in the Obama administration, the early years of the Obama administration, and it really was a result of the thinking and learning that happened over the Hope Six program. One, what Hope Six brought in was a mixed finance approach that allowed housing authorities to partner with tax credit investors and other investors to revitalize. That was a huge leap forward. Also, there were requirements for social services and tenant supports that now became understood to be much more central in redeveloping a community tenant engagement, tenant input, and also the focus on people. What we were learning over Hope Six that improving deteriorated buildings and making them beautiful was hugely important, but that people needed investment as well, and building that social capital. So the changes that the Obama administration proposed were to really move from counting units revitalized to looking at a whole holistic neighborhood redevelopment approach, instead of looking inward in the development to the footprint looking outward and building. As we understood these really important partnerships and understanding more clearly, what now has become a small part of overall investment can be a critical catalyst to bring in other investors and improve the neighborhood. Also, at the time, there was a major controversy about one for one replacement under the Hope Six program, and the choice neighborhoods transition then required that we not lose units in the redevelopment process. But I think it really is a critical, important program overall in thinking about revitalizing neighborhoods and cities and by catalyzing the housing authority and their investment in those neighborhoods. So it's been critical, and I think it's been a huge boon for mayors across the country because we can list many neighborhoods that have been totally transformed as a result of this investment.
[07:02] Jeffery K. Patterson: It sounds like, when I'm listening to you talk here, an evolution from just replacing buildings and just working on the housing stock per se to really not only enhancing the housing stock, but building those things that surround the housing stock and making it more of a community. And at the end of the day, that even makes the housing stock stronger because it's not just being put on an island with no other enhancements around it. Do you believe that that community and that focus on community is what's necessary, really, for us to be able to take housing to where we wanted to go in the future?
[07:45] Sunia Zaterman: You are absolutely right, Jeff. That aspect of renitting, the fabric of the community is just not about the built environment. It is renitting and rebuilding social institutions, service delivery modes. The health aspect, as you know, in our housing is initiative, where we're focused on cross sector partnerships. It is about this holistic approach that solving one problem doesn't solve all the problems. And I think Choice Neighborhoods embodies that and reflects that. My one deepest concern is our funding levels here. We have had about $8 billion appropriated in hope, six funds, and only about $2 billion appropriated in Choice Neighborhoods funding since, I guess, 2010 or 2011. And we now project we still have a $70 to $80 billion capital backlog. So these programs, if scaled up, could have unbelievable potential and order of magnitude change. So that's something we're working very hard on to scale up. But as you say, this, I think, reflects the state of the art thinking about how we invest and revitalize communities.
[09:02] Jeffery K. Patterson: So I think that you can see that this is probably the thought behind wanting to talk about Choice Neighborhoods today on this program, because I think that Choice Neighborhoods is a program that works, benefits a lot of people, a lot of communities. And it's just, I think, cool to see and hear so many good things about it. But I think you raise a good point, is that it's a good thing that we just need to figure out a way to do more of. Would that be accurate?
[09:32] Sunia Zaterman: You've got it, Jeff. That's right. We've got a great model here. With more investment, we can really go to extraordinary lengths.
[09:41] Jeffery K. Patterson: That sounds good. Appreciate it. Look forward to talking with you again. Thanks, Sonya. Now we're going to transition to someone who's actually implemented a Choice Neighborhood grant, Lucille Dozier, who is the executive director of the Sacramento Housing and Redevelopment Agency and also the vice president of the Council of Large Public Housing Authorities. Before we get to the point, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself? Who is Lachlan Dozier and what makes her tick?
[10:17] La Shelle Dozier: Okay, well, let me just tell you a little bit about how I came to be in this industry 20 years ago, I was looking for a career change. I had worked in various different agencies, all public service, but I felt as if I really couldn't see the impact of the change that we were making. And literally, I answered an ad in the newspaper, which, when I tell my kids that, they're like, what in the heck is a classified ad? But I did. I answered an ad in the newspaper for management analyst. So I took a demotion in terms of my career progression because I was just highly interested in learning something new. So I started out working here at the agency as a management analyst. Then I guess they figured she could do more. They put me into resident services, which I absolutely adored. I really love the work. But then someone quit running the Section Eight department. And so then they moved me to Section Eight. Then they put me in charge of public housing. And then one day my boss came in and said she was retiring and wanted me to step in as the interim executive director. So that was 15 years ago, and it's just been a joy to do the work that we do.
[11:27] Jeffery K. Patterson: So you didn't know that someone actually had implemented their own succession planning for you and walked you through 15 years of progression to put you into the leadership position you are in today, right?
[11:41] La Shelle Dozier: Absolutely. I tell my new employees that every time that someone asks you to do something new, take that on as a challenge because those are building blocks in your career. So I was here for five years before I was stepped into the role of executive director. And I've been to Ed now for 15 years.
[11:59] Jeffery K. Patterson: Well, great. Well, I know that you probably have done a number of very important housing initiatives in Sacramento since that time, but the one we're going to talk a little bit about today is called Marisol Village. So talk a little bit about that project, how it came to be. Why did you choose that for your choice neighborhood initiative.
[12:19] La Shelle Dozier: Before I talk about Marisol Village, let me just back up a little bit and talk about Klafa and how important that was in terms of me really understanding the impact of these CNI grants. And so by attending Clappa meetings and having opportunity to talk with my peers and to actually tour, I saw how they were able to just transform neighborhoods and really turn them into something that was really a vital part of the community. And so I really brought the knowledge that I learned from that organization back to Sacramento because we did have a housing development, 218 public housing units that were built in the 40s, so well past their crime, that was for sure. But they were located in an industrial neighborhood. And in fact, I had driven by many times and didn't know that there were 218 families living in the midst of all of these industrial businesses, and they were very isolated. They were cut off from services, from transportation. The light rail literally ran right past and kept going and didn't stop. I always wanted to do better, and I wanted to make sure that we could make a serious change. And that's why Marisol Village at the time, it's called Twin Rivers, was an opportunity for us to really make a difference here in Sacramento.
[13:39] Jeffery K. Patterson: How many units was Marisol Village before when it was previous property?
[13:43] La Shelle Dozier: So when it's a previous property, it was 218 units. By the time we're finished with the basic footprint, it will be 427 units. So when you see it today, it looks obviously nothing like what we had before. And so we were able to increase the density and also to change the mix. So the 218 units public housing will return. Then we will have some tax credit, affordable at about 50 and 60% AMI. And then we'll also have a few market rate units as well.
[14:15] Jeffery K. Patterson: That's outstanding. So was this process a process that Sacramento Housing and Redevelopment Agency said, hey, you know what? We're going to do this project, or was it resident driven where the residents kind of said, hey, this is something that needs to be done. How did you all come together to be able to do this? And what was the atmosphere in the community? Was it something that people embraced, or was it something that people kind of felt that's not something needs to be done? That's a waste of money? What was the atmosphere at that time?
[14:46] La Shelle Dozier: Well, the atmosphere at that particular time, they were pretty complacent with what had been there for a very long time, and they didn't know that there was the opportunity to do a transformation. So it was really driven by the agency as the Housing Authority. But we took a lot of time, and we started out with the planning grant. I can't emphasize how important that was to our success. So in 2012, we actually applied for and we received a $300,000 choice neighborhoods planning grant from HUD. And that really gave us the opportunity to bring in our partners. This particular project is McCormick Beer and Salazar and also Urban strategies. Through our efforts of working particularly with Urban Strategies, that's how we were able to engage the residents and really lay out what could actually happen, how it could change. And they were skeptical at the beginning, I won't make any bones about it. They kind of like, okay, here we go again. Sure you're going to be able to do all this? Their most important issue was, will I be able to retain my housing?
[15:56] Jeffery K. Patterson: Wow. So you went through that process. So you came up with a plan, you got partners together, you met with folks, you got this plan together. Was your next step trying to get an implementation grant?
[16:07] La Shelle Dozier: Yes, it really was. The reason that we went with the planning grant was to get the implementation grant. And I knew that if I could get that $30 million implementation grant, then we would be on our way. This particular project has really passed the baton from many elected officials because they, you know, have turned over. But each one has really done an excellent job of championing this particular project. And then let me explain a little bit. That's kind of interesting about this is that the Sacramento Housing Redevelopment Agency reports to both the city of Sacramento as well as the county of Sacramento. This particular project, while it sat within the city limits, was really the county of Sacramento entity. And it was because it had just been there so long. It had started out, it was in the county, but eventually the city had kind of incorporated around it. But it was really a county. So I had to get these two jurisdictions onto the same page about it. So that was interesting as well. We got started. We did so much work in the community, but not only the community, but also working with the industrial businesses that were surrounding us. A small neighborhood, actually a little bit tucked away, a few single family homes, engaged them and really just got everybody to help us envision what this new neighborhood could be.
[17:35] Jeffery K. Patterson: I'm sorry, I want to take a step back because you kind of glossed over this one part and I want you to really focus in on that because it's a significant, I think, accomplishment and a testament to you and your team. When you talk about a lot of the change that occurred from different local officials, local elected officials, different partners, and the leadership in those organizations, you were still able to keep it together, make sure that everybody understood the importance of this and still keep this path going. To be able to do to be able to get it concluded. What was your secret sauce in being able to do that for all of us out here who are going through those processes now? How do you keep it together? Because development projects don't just happen overnight. They happen over a period of time. So your path is one that if any of us are going to be successful, we have to be able to follow. So how did you do that?
[18:31] La Shelle Dozier: I'd say that the secret sauce was really having a whole lot of patience. You just really had to have patience. The faith that you were going to make it there, and continually telling the story, continually selling this to each and every stakeholder and really also making them see how this particular project would be a catalyst for the neighborhood. This whole area was really going to transform and change as a result of the work that we were doing. That's what I had to sell. That's what I had to get people to believe in, and that's what I had to get HUD to understand when they came out and did their site visit for the implementation grant is that if they invested in this one little small neighborhood, that the effects would ripple throughout the entire area. And that is what has happened.
[19:26] Jeffery K. Patterson: So where do you guys stand now with this project? Is it completed? Is it on a cusp of being completed? Where do you guys stand now?
[19:34] La Shelle Dozier: So, in terms of where we are now, there were five phases, and like I said, we got $30 million for that implementation grant. We finally at the beginning of this year. So my New Year's resolution last year was to get this last phase financed. And, I mean, I was literally praying, and we came up short about $15 million. The city was able to put in ten, but then I was still short $5 million. And that's when I went to the county and said, you got to help me out here. And luckily, they did. They committed the funds. So that's where we stand. The final phase has actually been financed, and the first two phases, we've completed construction and the residents have moved back in. So it's just exciting.
[20:26] Jeffery K. Patterson: That is great to hear. So what's the feeling from the community now that they've seen this, now that they've gone through this process? How is your choice neighborhood viewed by the residents and the community?
[20:39] La Shelle Dozier: The residents are absolutely thrilled. A lot of times, I think within our industry, we make a lot of promises that sometimes we're not able to deliver on. But I was determined that we were going to deliver on this particular project. So the residents are absolutely thrilled that they come back to a new neighborhood that is totally transformed. So they have brand new units, and all of this is state of the art. There's nothing about it that looks like public housing, because that is never our intent. And they are excited about all of the amenities. But more importantly, the community has embraced Mirasol Village, and the community has used this as a shining jewel of what transformation looks like. And more importantly, we're seeing just a ton of investment. So we're seeing market rate housing is going in. We're seeing a whole quarter now that will be developed, which is a mix of retail and farmers market and more housing. So everything that we could have hoped for, it started to come to fruition.
[21:50] Jeffery K. Patterson: That is truly exciting. So I got two final questions for you. My first final question would be, what would you tell all of those housing authorities and other entities that are looking to apply for a choice neighborhood grant, whether it be planning or implementation grant? What advice would you give them?
[22:10] La Shelle Dozier: I would really recommend that people go for the planning grant because those grants have increased in terms of the dollar amount. I thought it was so wonderful to have the people portion because the choice neighborhoods focus on housing. You focus on people and you focus on the neighborhood. The people portion was just outstanding with urban strategies. They had a case worker assigned to every single family as they relocated. They actually interfaced with the new school. They helped the family in the new neighborhood. I mean, it was just unbelievable the amount of wraparound services that were provided. So I am a huge believer in the planning grant and what it gives for families. And then the other thing is, what I would also recommend is when you're going for the implementation grant, think big. And that's what we did here in Sacramento. So even though we have the CNI grant, which is 30 million, the project is $320,000,000. So at first we got the 30 million and we were like, yay, we're literally jumping for joy because we thought all of our we hit the jackpot. We got $30 million now is less than 10% of the tire project. So don't be daunted by those numbers, because really, that's what it takes is the $30 million was always the thing that I could use with our locals to say we have a lot of money here on the line. From HUD, and they've invested in us. And so we have to step up as locals, which is what we told them when we went for the implementation grant. And I had to keep reminding them of that. So I would say those are the two things, is think big. Think beyond just the borders of your particular project in this particular one. So we got the $30 million. Then we went for some state funding to build the light rail station. Remember I told you the light rail just went straight past? And so we received an $18 million grant to build the light rail station.
[24:14] Jeffery K. Patterson: Wow.
[24:15] La Shelle Dozier: So we just kept building and building and building upon the work that we did with Mirrorsaw Village. And that really was the success in this project.
[24:26] Jeffery K. Patterson: That just says something about investment and what choice neighborhoods can really do for an entire community just for the folks that were there before. But how to actually transform a community and really allow that community to reach its full potential? And it's cool to hear you talk about a development project where the focus initially was supposed to be on bricks and mortar. But when you talk about the most important aspect of it to you with the people and making sure that the people portion of it was strong enough so that the development could actually be successful as well, So kudos to you and your team for all the work that you did on that. My last question is, if you had to do it all over again, what, if anything, would you do differently?
[25:22] La Shelle Dozier: Okay, before I answer that question, I do want to tell you about all the amenities. As I mentioned, there's 427 units, anywhere from one to five bedrooms. We have townhouses, we have garden, we have elevator flats. It's all surrounded by huge park, another $2 million grant. We got to build this huge park that really is a water detention basin underneath two fold. So all of the units face the park. We have a swimming pool. This is California. Gets really hot.
[25:58] Jeffery K. Patterson: I was going to say that's a necessity out there, right?
[26:02] La Shelle Dozier: Yes, it is. It is not an optional, at least as far as we're concerned, because the kids need to have a place for recreation. So we have a swimming pool, huge resident community center, like I said, the new light rail station also, too, because we're looking at clean energy. We have clean energy buses. We have new bus stops, provide residents with transit passes. We actually applied for some transportation funding. So there's huge bike lanes up to fail, literally, that you can walk along because before you could not allow the children to walk from the development because it was so hard in terms of all the cars. So we have new bike lanes. We planted 800 new trees to support our urban forestry. We have community art murals that are absolutely gorgeous that we have on some of the buildings. And we have sculptures. We have new public parks. A community garden. It's the biggest community garden that I've ever seen. And the wonderful thing is that we had residents lined up to do pickling of the vegetables that they had already harvested. So community garden, six children playgrounds and dog park, because our pets are our friends. And an early childhood education center, which our congresswoman, Doris Matsui, was so gracious in terms of helping us get $2 million so we could build that. So I just had to make sure you knew how fabulous Miraculous Village is.
[27:35] Jeffery K. Patterson: No, I think that that is very important. I appreciate you sharing that. I also think that if you could, maybe you could send some of that information to Platha. We love to put that up on our website. So, folks, to see some of the pictures of some of the things that you just have kind of described. So that will be something I think will be really good for our listeners to be able to take a look at. So now I will circle back again and say, if you had to do it all over again, what would you do differently?
[28:09] La Shelle Dozier: I think I would really focus on the capacity within the Housing Authority. And while we as a Housing Authority are also the development finance arm for both the city and the county, I think I probably underestimated that while we have an outside developer, it was so important, and we were able to finally build this in very quickly. And Pivot is to have individual project managers here who really were representing the interest of the Housing Authority. I think that was really key. And once we started to put that building block, those were the drivers that really continued to propel and move this project forward and in a way that we, the Housing Authority, wanted to see. So all of those things that we talked about, all of those amenities and going for all of these additional funding. So funding for the light rail, me and the RT director are best friends because I got an $18 million to build a light rail station, getting the dog parks, changing the transportation, all of those things were drivers by the Housing Authority. And that, I think, is what is critical, is to no matter if you have a private developer, you got to have that in house talent that's going to champion your project.
[29:29] Jeffery K. Patterson: Lachelle, thank you for taking the time today and come in and share so much information about your Choice neighborhood initiative. You should be very proud of the work that you're doing. And I just want to share with our listeners. Michelle has been one of the most outstanding executive directors that we have. She's been a beacon of leadership for a number of years. We're very fortunate to have her as Vice President of Klafla, but she also serves on a number of boards in the state of California that help facilitate the types of relationships that are needed to be able to pull off projects like this. So, Lachele, we thank you for coming in today, and we look forward to hearing some more exciting things about what's going on in Sacramento. So thank you.
[30:23] La Shelle Dozier: Absolutely. And thank you for really having me on the show today to chat with you, Jeffrey. And I think every executive director out there really needs to have that one legacy project that they can point to and say, that was something that I led. And for me, Miraculous Village is that project.
[30:43] Jeffery K. Patterson: Congratulations. So that's going to do it for us today. Stay tuned for our next episode, up to the Point. Take care.
[30:53] Carla Heron: Clappa is a nonprofit membership organization that works to preserve and improve public and affordable housing through advocacy, research, policy analysis, and public education. Our membership includes over 70 of the largest and most innovative public housing authorities across the country. Our members collectively own and manage nearly 40% of the nation's public housing stock, administer more than a quarter of the Housing Choice Voucher program, and provide a wide array of other rental assistance. They also make vital services available to the more than 1 million low income households they serve. Learn more about us in our membership@clpha.org or on Twitter at CLPHA. Through our Housing Is initiative, Klafa is helping to build a future where housing, education, and health systems work together to improve life outcomes for low income people. Learn more about our work to broaden and deepen cross sector collaboration@housingis.org or on Twitter at housing. I'm