Healthcare advocacy and the unpredictability of health with Laura Packard

In this episode of Living Chronic, Brandy Schantz speaks with Laura Packard, founder of Health Care Voices and a cancer survivor, about the importance of healthcare advocacy. They discuss the challenges faced by patients navigating the healthcare system, the impact of the Affordable Care Act, and the need for education and resources for individuals dealing with chronic illnesses. The conversation highlights personal stories, recent controversies in healthcare, and the desperate situations many patients find themselves in when seeking care.

takeaways

• Healthcare advocacy is crucial for those with chronic illnesses.
• The Affordable Care Act has saved many lives, including Laura's.
• Navigating health insurance can be complicated and overwhelming.
• Patients often face unexpected health challenges that require quick decisions.
• Education about healthcare options is essential for informed choices.
• Personal experiences can shed light on the healthcare system's flaws.
• Recent healthcare controversies highlight ongoing issues in patient care.
• Desperation can lead to drastic actions when patients feel denied care.
• Resources like navigators can help individuals understand their options.
• It's important to advocate for better healthcare policies and practices.

Transcript

Brandy (00:01.88)
This is Brandy Schantz and you're listening to Living Chronic. Today my guest is Laura Packard and she is the founder of Health Care Voices, a nonprofit helping severely ill individuals to advocate for better health care and a cancer survivor herself. So welcome Laura.

Laura Packard (00:20.071)
Thanks for having me.

Brandy (00:21.538)
So excited to have you here. I found you and didn't know until a little bit later that you're a neighbor, so welcome neighbor.

Laura Packard (00:28.839)
Yes!

Brandy (00:32.28)
You know, Old Town Alexandria is kind of, it's got a really cute small town feel. It's, you know, walkable. We feel like we know everybody. But you know, we're still really in a big city and it's just always amazing how many people I don't know and often we're doing things that are very similar. you know, it's always fun when I meet somebody new and you know, you're out doing the great work. And I love that you're advocating for better healthcare.

Laura Packard (00:50.503)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy (01:01.642)
anybody who's ever been sick knows that we have a lot of work to do and it's not simple. So tell me a little bit about your nonprofit, healthcare voices and what you do.

Laura Packard (01:15.857)
Well, my nonprofit, we offer free media trainings for health care advocates at our website, healthcarevoices.org slash learn. We have all of our past trainings up that people can watch anytime. So things like how to write a letter to the editor or how to testify to your legislature about a bill, how to talk to a reporter, those kinds of things to help get your health care story out.

So that's one of the things that my nonprofit does. And we also have a weekly show and podcast where we're answering people's health insurance questions and also talking about healthcare issues. Like this past episode was on reproductive healthcare, what's been happening since the Supreme Court ruling, what could happen next year. And we've had episodes on what could happen with lower drug prices.

what could happen with health insurance, future episodes on all kinds of topics that experts not only answer your questions, but also help educate.

Brandy (02:24.302)
I think that's so important because, well first of all, know, many of us who've become chronically ill, you know, become sick out of cancer or something of that nature, we realize how much we didn't know after the fact.

And we just never know when we're going into it. But second, when we're trying to make these decisions, and there's so many different decisions to be made regarding your healthcare, your insurance, and how you should proceed. And there's just not a whole lot out there to help you to know what should I do? What's better? I always talk about the mistake, the worst mistake I made. Just because I didn't know any better, I switched off of my TRICARE, which is very much a government.

health insurance and went with the Johns Hopkins family plan because I thought well that sounds better Johns Hopkins not realizing that I was going to a private insurance that's very different from government insurance and I had to get somebody to get me back on so you know just those little things that we just don't know as a group of people what are some of the most common questions you get in regards to health care and health insurance

Laura Packard (03:34.993)
Well, open enrollment for the Affordable Care Act is going on through January 15th. So now is the time that people are going to healthcare.gov and they're enrolling. when you go through the process, you have a lot of questions. I myself, as a healthcare person, I work with people to figure out what is the best policy for me because it's complicated.

Brandy (04:00.035)
Mm-hmm.

Laura Packard (04:01.273)
you know, depending where you live, you may see a few choices or you may see a lot of choices and then you have to decide, do you want a higher deductible but lower monthly payment? Do you want a lower monthly payment and a higher monthly payment and lower deductible? And it all kind of depends on your personal situation and whether you need to see specialists or whether you're not planning on having any medical issues, but

We never know what's going to happen.

Brandy (04:31.63)
That's just it. I always say it's not you until it's you. It always seems like something that happens to other people until you get that news. And there's no way to predict it at all. I was a healthy person running Ironmans when this happened to me.

Laura Packard (04:35.377)
Mm-hmm.

Laura Packard (04:40.964)
Exactly.

Laura Packard (04:44.902)
Right.

Laura Packard (04:48.557)
Exactly. Like I was a healthy person or so I thought and I had stage four cancer. So you really don't know any of us could have a heart attack or a stroke or be hit by a car at any moment.

Brandy (05:04.556)
Well, we live in the DC metro area. We could definitely be hit by a car at any moment. my goodness. I have a lot to say about that. I mean, we could have our own little local podcast on that and people would, we'd never run out of stories. but, yeah, it's, it's, there's just no predicting it. And I know that, you know, it's, it feels so good and comforting to feel like you have control over a situation.

Laura Packard (05:08.583)
Well, I mean, in Alexandria, you've seen those cars.

Laura Packard (05:20.709)
Hahaha

Brandy (05:33.432)
And I do it all the time. I can control this. got it. I do it all the, you know, I have this WeatherEx app. I'm like, see, decreasing pressure, I've got it. And then when I see increasing pressure, I'm convinced I'm going to feel good. And then when I don't, I'm like, well, what didn't I control? Well, you know, I love how you like to believe that, but here we are. And often people think, well, what if I just eat healthy and clean? Then I won't get cancer, right? And it's just not always the case.

Laura Packard (06:01.947)
Right. And I think, you know, getting sick really taught me that you can do all of the quote unquote right things in the world and still get cancer. And you can do all the quote unquote wrong things and live to 110. You know, you can increase the probabilities in your favor by, you know, eating, you know,

fruits and vegetables and getting eight hours of sleep and managing your stress and so on. But that is in no way a guarantee of good health. And you know, you should take care of yourself. But if you for whatever reason don't or can't, that also doesn't guarantee that you will get sick. It's just you do the best you can with the information you have. And we're all just trying to do the best we can.

Brandy (06:55.374)
Honestly, we really are. I have to say, I've noticed over the last probably 15 years, 10, 15 years especially with the rise of social media, there is often a blame game out there. Well, you probably ate McDonald's every day, so now everybody has to pay for your cancer. And it's just so important, I think, in every aspect and every scenario to remind people that this can be you. It's not something that just happens to the people who don't do the right thing.

and all sorts of different things, whether it be getting cancer, getting a chronic illness, not having the right insurance because you just weren't prepared for this to happen. just, such a young, I mean, when I was first diagnosed with Crohn's, I think I was all of 37 years old. Nobody expects to suddenly have your entire life and career upended at 37. So.

Yeah, getting these messages out there I think are so important, especially now when we have all this change coming and we just don't know what to expect. What next? What will happen with the Affordable Care Act? And when we were talking last week, you mentioned that you found out that a lot of people did not know that the Affordable Care Act and Obamacare are the same thing.

Laura Packard (07:55.047)
Mm-hmm.

Laura Packard (08:01.639)
Mm-hmm.

Laura Packard (08:10.855)
Right. And this was a law that was passed in 2010. So it's been 14 years. But on the other hand, if you're a young person, you've never experienced insurance before the Affordable Care Act because it's been around your entire life. And also you may remember

Brandy (08:29.772)
Mm-hmm.

Laura Packard (08:32.775)
10 years ago, what it was like before. But if you were young then, maybe you were on your parents' insurance or you didn't have insurance yet. it may seem surprising that some people need some basic things explained. But when you think about it, I think we all made some assumptions that everybody lived through this, that everybody remembers what it was like before 2010.

Brandy (08:56.93)
Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes.

Laura Packard (09:00.167)
That's just not the case. And so, you know, on the one hand, it can be frustrating to hear from people that, you know, didn't have some basic understanding of how all this works. But on the other hand, that just means that we all should do more education and make sure people are aware.

Brandy (09:23.514)
Absolutely, I mean talk about the things that used to happen before we had the ACA I remember when I was coming out of the army and I Was living here by myself. I was still waiting for my husband to come in from Germany and I fell down the stairs and I went to the doctor and They made me show proof that I did not have any kind of shoulder injury prior

to that fall down the stairs and that it was during, know, if it happened that I had insurance during that time. So if it was during the Army, I need to show that I had insurance when that first happened because if it happened, you know, in between me having insurance in the Army and taking my first new job then not covered and I thought, what did I just walk into? What just happened to me? And of course they can't do that anymore.

But we don't talk about those old stories about falling down the stairs and trying to figure out how to prove that you had insurance when it happened. Because if you did it one single day that you didn't have insurance, it's not covered. It's not covered pre-existing.

Laura Packard (10:18.023)
Bright.

Laura Packard (10:30.009)
And also, yeah, that could make you uninsurable in the future. Insurance companies could just refuse to write you a policy or they could write you a policy and refuse to cover anything having to do with your shoulders ever again for the rest of your life.

Brandy (10:36.878)
Yes.

Brandy (10:46.906)
Yep. And it, you know, it's just hard to really, you know, note the gravity in that situation when you have one thing happen to you. And because it happened during a single period of time in your life, insurance never covers you again. My goodness. mean, I couldn't imagine it have been, you know, a Crohn's patient during that time. And maybe I didn't find it until

you know, a rare moment, you know, when I end up at the ER but don't have insurance. I mean, what a nightmare. What a nightmare.

Laura Packard (11:21.435)
Yes. And there's a whole generation of people that are here today because they were able to get treatments through the Affordable Care Act that you're hearing from voices of people that literally would not be here today that you would not hear from otherwise. A generation of people whose lives were saved by this. And I'm one of them.

Brandy (11:29.806)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy (11:37.721)
Yes.

Brandy (11:44.442)
Yes, because you're a living example. You are a cancer survivor, and it was the ACA that saved your life. Tell me a little bit about what that was like, and how did that change your life, having the ACA versus if you'd been diagnosed before 2000 and, was that 14?

Laura Packard (12:06.799)
Yeah. So the law was passed in 2010 and then they actually started selling insurance starting 2014. So I've been self-employed for many years now and I used to have a junk insurance policy. And while I was going through these treatments, I Googled a little bit and that insurance provider was being sued by the families of cancer patients that they hadn't covered after their family member had died.

So that very well could have been me with my junk insurance policy, but thankfully I was diagnosed and treated in 2017 while I had Affordable Care Act insurance because it was over half a million dollars worth of radiation and chemo treatments that got me in remission. So what used to happen is that people would get treatments as long as they could pay for it.

or until they hit some sort of cap through their insurance company. And then the insurance company said, sorry, you're on your own kid. And if you couldn't raise any more money from your friends and family and neighborhoods, then you went home and died.

Brandy (13:21.272)
Yes, that's exactly what happened. Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know, there's been a lot of controversy surrounding a lot of healthcare. It's been an interesting week since we last spoke. First, there was the Blue Cross Blue Shield who wanted to, they wanted to limit the number of hours that you could be covered for anesthesia. You know, I heard it explained that, you know, well, we're just trying to keep doctors in check, but.

I I'm not an expert. I did not go to medical school, but I've been sick long enough to know stuff happens, folks. There's no, I mean, you can't plan everything. You know, one of my doctors said, hey, look, there's no zeros or 100s in medicine, so you just have to be ready. My goodness. So what did you think about that? Of course, they reversed course on that. I should note, but.

Laura Packard (13:58.919)
Mm-hmm.

Laura Packard (14:09.031)
Mm-hmm.

Laura Packard (14:14.503)
Well, there was a ton of outcry because again, what is going to happen? You're part the way through a colonoscopy or major abdominal surgery and then they give you a piece of wood, a bite board to bite on when the anesthesia wears off.

Brandy (14:28.25)
I

Brandy (14:32.59)
And you know, what are the legal, you know, if that had gone through, my goodness, what was legal gonna have to do with the hospital? Did you have to check a block before going into surgery? Yes, if things go over, just go ahead and charge me the 15 grand or, no, give me the woodblock, nope, nope, I'm not paying 15 grand. I mean, what was legal about to have to do? my gosh, I mean, I had a surgery last year that was supposed to be an hour and it took five.

Laura Packard (15:00.025)
Well, how it would have worked out in practice is that insurance would have paid a certain amount and said no more and then patients would have been hit with the bill. So this would have fallen on patients. This is a way for Anthem to make more money and shaft their patients.

Brandy (15:19.074)
Yeah, you know, and that's, but the fact that they reversed course so quickly, I mean, that really speaks to people like you who do this for a living, who are advocates who step out and say, no, we need to do something to protect patients.

because that clearly was going to be a nightmare. couldn't imagine the stress. I already have enough stress with all the health issues. Now I have to add the stress of hoping that the doctor doesn't find any extra, you know, tumors or something difficult in there and has to go an extra five hours. And now I have a $15,000 bill at the end of the day. You know, it's just insane. And then of course, the second really insane story of this week was the murder of

Laura Packard (15:45.543)
Mm-hmm.

Laura Packard (15:58.503)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy (16:01.466)
health insurance CEO. You know, we don't know why yet. I mean, everything's conjecture at this point. But

Laura Packard (16:03.61)
Mm-hmm.

Laura Packard (16:09.031)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy (16:12.13)
And obviously I never condone violence. I'm doing this podcast. I get up every morning and do the various things I do because I believe that if we work hard and we work together that we can make incremental change. And incremental change is important. ACA came from incremental change. We're women. How much did we get over the last 50 years thanks to incremental change? It works. So I do believe in that and I don't believe in violence.

Laura Packard (16:29.511)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Brandy (16:40.152)
But I do think the way everybody jumped to this, you everybody thinks this must have been a patient who was denied care. The bullets did say deny. I can't remember, deny, delay, and depose. Yeah. I do think it's important to highlight at this point in time how desperate people are when they're sick.

Laura Packard (16:46.311)
Mm-hmm.

Laura Packard (16:50.343)
Mm-hmm. Yes, something like that.

Laura Packard (17:02.631)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy (17:04.068)
This is not an easy life. I didn't ask for it. I did everything right in life. I'm everything. Went to school, studied, graduated, did all the useful majors, folks. you know, whatever you want. Useless major, I did it. I was an Army officer. And here I am. It's a very desperate situation. And I don't think we talk about that enough.

Laura Packard (17:24.135)
Mm-hmm.

Laura Packard (17:27.919)
Right. Yeah. And I think it's interesting that tens of thousands of stories have been shared. Some from people that had directly been denied by United healthcare and some that just have been, you know, yanked around by their insurance companies. But the fact that everybody has a story means this is a widespread problem. And it's very interesting that all of these problems existed yesterday. It's just they weren't

talked about until this shocking crime happened, then all of a sudden the media is interested in talking about it.

Brandy (17:58.915)
Right.

Brandy (18:04.588)
Exactly. You know, and that's a problem. You know, we can't keep living in a world where we either swing from one side to the other in such severe ways, or we just don't talk about things until something catastrophic happens. We can't live like this, and we can't condone it and support it. We need to foster...

Laura Packard (18:18.535)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy (18:23.116)
good conversation without violence, without the catastrophic event, without swinging from one side to the other. And, you know, unfortunately, think often in especially today's world, where, you know, where you're at on social media probably reflects your political leanings and where we all love to speak in meetings, you know, you can't really make progress and have a true conversation if you're speaking in memes. And I would hope that we can find a way to do better when it comes to

Laura Packard (18:52.967)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy (18:52.972)
those things. you know the number of people who have been denied. We're pushing right now with the Crohn's colitis foundation to get the step back passed. I don't know if you're very familiar with it. Very pertinent when it comes to insurance because for those of us with a disease like Crohn's and others, you you work so hard there's no one treatment that works.

And then your insurance comes back and says, you know what? Yeah, I hear you. I know what the doctor wants, but we want you to start over again and start back with prednisone and see if that works. Which by the way, know it now with this, you know, now my late forties and all of my chronically ill friends, especially once they hit the fifties, I'm scared to death of prednisone after 50 because they all keep breaking stuff, breaking a back, get a hip replacement. is, know, prednisone is not good for you as a patient.

Laura Packard (19:42.758)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy (19:45.604)
So yeah, I mean, obviously we're expensive. So they tried to deny and I think that's, you know, it's just something we don't talk about again. You just don't know until you get sick, right?

Laura Packard (19:48.508)
Mm-hmm.

Laura Packard (19:55.527)
Exactly. Like that was, I had worked for the AFL CIO in 2009, 2010. I was in Arkansas helping to get the Affordable Care Act passed. You know, I was on the ground, you know, setting up press conferences and things with people who were directly affected and needed health insurance. Never realizing that a decade later, my work would actually save my own life. But it wasn't personal.

Brandy (20:20.568)
Mm-hmm.

Laura Packard (20:24.401)
to me until I was in it. And if something serious medically happens to you, you will learn so much the hard way about how insurance and healthcare is so broken in America.

Brandy (20:35.78)
So, really.

Brandy (20:40.824)
Yes, yes, 10,000 times yes. And I always say, you know, what has struck me is I have two forms of insurance right now. I have both TRICARE for retirees and I have Veterans Affairs, Champ VA for disabled veterans. And I still want to beat my head against the wall because it is so difficult to do such simple things. And...

you know, it's quality of life.

it's quality of life, know, it's not just fighting your illness, it's fighting the insurance company, it's fighting the hospital, it's getting a doctor to give you the right answer, it's going to a doctor and, you know, not getting their opinion, which I, something I never thought about in a million years until I became sick. And then I noticed that when you go to a doctor, instead of them just laying out all of the available science and what we know and don't know, and what some of the recommendations are, you know, you go in like, well, I don't believe in that, but you

can try find a doctor that does. I waited six months to see you for that. What happened? Stop. There's no other doctors. So yeah, you do learn the hard way. But I am glad that we're talking.

Laura Packard (21:49.799)
Mm-hmm.

Laura Packard (21:57.447)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And also that they can just be, they can, doctors can just be wrong, which is not something I'd ever thought about. But you know, when I was first diagnosed, they diagnosed me with lung cancer. And it turns out that actually I was more of a zebra than a horse. There was cancer in my lungs, but it wasn't lung cancer. was lymphoma. So very different treatments, very different outcomes. So I spent a couple of weeks thinking that I had a few months to live.

Brandy (22:02.51)
All the

Brandy (22:17.978)
Yes. Yes.

Laura Packard (22:27.155)
And actually I had a treatable and curable form of cancer. So it turned out well for me, but doctors can make mistakes or they can make assumptions based on what they know or what they see. And that's not the whole story. Like as you were saying earlier, it's not a zero or a 100 thing. There's a whole lot more shades of gray in medicine than I had realized before.

Brandy (22:38.511)
Yes.

Brandy (22:49.918)
Yeah, absolutely. I always say, you know, when you're a healthy person, you always think, you know, you go to the doctor, you tell them your symptoms, they run a test, you're diagnosed, voila, everybody's done. But that's not it. And there's so much soft science. You know, I finally got a diagnosis this year.

for everything that's just been plaguing my life for four years. And the healthy community always says, my God, it took you four years to get a diagnosis. That's crazy. But the sick community always says, wow, you got a diagnosis in only four years. You must have worked really hard. Think about that, everybody. Yeah, yeah, I did work very hard. It was a full-time job.

Laura Packard (23:37.959)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy (23:45.272)
It was a full-time job. And that's the part people don't realize. And that's why that added layer of insurance is difficult.

Laura Packard (23:45.703)
Mm-hmm.

Laura Packard (23:56.679)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy (23:57.562)
So making those decisions can be difficult. Are there any resources out there to help people with these decisions? I just know that somewhere out there, there's somebody who's 25 and healthy, and they're looking at these plans, and they're saying, why would I need to just be able to go to any specialist? I'm healthy. Let me get the cheapest plan.

Laura Packard (24:09.457)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy (24:18.938)
But is there anywhere they can go where they can say, you know what, let me know what really would be better? Because again, you don't think you're ever going to get sick when you're 25, but believe me, it happens overnight when you least expect it.

Laura Packard (24:28.743)
Mm-hmm.

Laura Packard (24:33.477)
Well, you can start by going to healthcare.gov and there are free navigators, real live people that can talk you through it. And my show, we answer viewers' questions, but that's not a scalable solution for hundreds of thousands of people. So my show, you can go to healthcarevoices.org slash care talk and watch past episodes and we have some resources there. But if you're looking for insurance now and you have until January 15th to enroll,

Brandy (24:46.51)
Yes.

Laura Packard (25:02.023)
You can talk to a navigator for free that will not cost you anything and they will talk you through some of the best options for you. And I mean, if you are young and healthy and not expecting anything, one of the cheaper plans on the exchange may work for you. If you know, you know, you have a chronic condition, you have various doctors, you need to see your various.

medicines that you're on, you're probably going to want to spend more a month and then maybe less overall, a lower deductible. But like you were saying, this is all a little bit of guessing because nobody knows when an out of control Alexandria driver will cross your path.

Brandy (25:48.09)
I mean, I still can't believe I'm alive some days. They come for me. They do. But you know, but those are the things you have to think about and it's difficult. How do you risk matrix? I mean, maybe if you live in the DC metro area, you think, you know what? Yeah, one of these drivers are going to get me one day. So I better think about that. But you don't necessarily think about that if you're living in a more rural area.

Maybe you always drive. Nobody ever thinks they're going to get in a car accident. That one's always a surprise. Like, wait, what? That happened to me? The things you can't plan. yeah, making those decisions can be difficult, especially, I think, when you're young. And young, know right now, everybody's everything above whatever you're at, up through about 40 seems old. But you know.

Laura Packard (26:20.807)
Mm-hmm.

Laura Packard (26:32.487)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy (26:41.55)
Believe me, young people, 37 is very young. Nobody expects to get sick at age 37. But it happens all the time. And I would be remiss for not mentioning as a Crohn's patient that the numbers in colon cancer in young people are rising alarmingly, especially if you are African-American man. You really need to think about that, those increased.

Laura Packard (26:57.351)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Laura Packard (27:05.148)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy (27:08.662)
in risks that we just don't know why yet. We just don't know why. but there are increased risks. mean, where can, I mean, if you don't listen to the news all day long, like, you know, you or I probably do, how do you even find out what I'm at increased risk? Who knew?

Laura Packard (27:11.729)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Laura Packard (27:25.125)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Young cancer of all kinds. But as you mentioned, I've had friends that died in their 30s and early 40s of colon cancer. So if something is not right with your body, you should definitely see a doctor. And if they aren't taking you seriously, you are allowed and you should get a second opinion.

If something is not right with your body and you know that, please, please stick with it until you get a diagnosis because a lot of things, some, some things, if it's wrong with your body, there are treatments or even cures. And it's always better to know earlier than later, regardless of what's going on.

Brandy (28:11.226)
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It's, you know, it's a difficult, it's a difficult decision. It's a difficult, we never know. Some things I think you should probably assume. Military, if you serve near burn pits, there's some weird cancers out there. We're dying at young ages. We really are. Even, you know, from various exposures. I have a lot of friends who have died in their 30s and 40s from very rare cancers. They were very healthy and they suddenly died.

So if you've been exposed to various things, I think it's probably smart to assess a small increase in risk in some level. But for many people, of course, you don't know. The best you could do is read. I love that we have so many great podcasts and information out there now to try to help people to understand what they're going through a little bit better, because it is a very difficult landscape to navigate.

Laura Packard (29:11.228)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy (29:11.448)
So it's important and now more than ever.

Laura Packard (29:16.775)
Absolutely.

Brandy (29:19.0)
So I really love what you're doing, Healthcare Voices. That is a great group. You know, go to your website. I love to see everything you're sharing on socials. Your socials are at Laura Packard, correct?

Laura Packard (29:24.486)
Mm-hmm.

Laura Packard (29:37.348)
depends on the platform. Laura Packard is my YouTube channel, but if you look for Laura Packard on any social platform, I should pop up and talking about healthcare probably.

Brandy (29:48.142)
Yes, well I appreciate it. There's so much to learn out there. We'll never get to the bottom of all of it, I don't think. I mean, there's probably three experts out there and it's hard to find them. But just sharing everything that you possibly can is so important because once this happens, you need somebody to help you make decisions. It's not easy. It's definitely not easy. And even just planning for retirement.

Laura Packard (30:09.799)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy (30:14.83)
What is Medicare and why? So these are all important questions. So I really appreciate you coming on. Thank you so much for being on Living Chronic. Everybody check out Laura Packard's information so you can learn more about healthcare voices and how to advocate for better healthcare.

Laura Packard (30:17.317)
Yes.

Laura Packard (30:33.841)
Thank you. And hopefully I'll have you on soon on my podcast care talk, because we'd love to do an episode talking about the VA and tri care and what, what health insurance options are for vets.

Brandy (30:46.935)
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. There's a lot of great information out there on that. So I'm excited to share, especially since so much has increased this year and we are facing a lot of cuts potentially next year. So it's really important that people understand what we currently have for benefits and how to advocate for us to keep it. So, you know, it's the good work you do every day, focused on veterans and military.

Thank you again, Laura.

Laura Packard (31:19.559)
Thank you.