Finding Purpose Beyond Achievement with Brian Lowery

In this conversation, Brandy Schantz and Professor Brian Lowry explore the intersection of achievement and meaning, particularly in the context of chronic illness and identity. They discuss how personal experiences shape our understanding of self and the importance of community and inclusion in navigating life's challenges. The dialogue emphasizes the need for individuals to evolve and find purpose beyond material success, while also addressing the significance of diversity, equity, and inclusion in society.

https://www.brianloweryphd.com/

Transcript

Brandy Schantz (00:01.065)
This is Brandy Schantz and you're listening to Living Chronic. Today I'm here with Professor Brian Lowry. He is a speaker, an author, a professor. I'm really excited for this particular conversation because I love his insight into social psychology and the relationships that can shape who we are. It's been particularly of importance to me so much of what you've talked about, particularly in finding out who you are as a person because I very

struggled with learning that myself after becoming chronically ill and having to change my life a little bit. So welcome and thank you so much for doing Living Chronic.

Brian (00:40.302)
Thanks for having me, Brandy.

Brandy Schantz (00:42.747)
So, Brian, you talk about so many great things, but your TED Talk I really loved. I really loved. I actually watched it a few times because I loved a lot of what you talk about in there. And you talked about that intersection of achievement and finding meaning. So could you expand on that a little bit, particularly for our audience who is largely either a family member of or somebody living with a chronic illness or disability?

Brian (01:09.346)
Yeah, for a lot of people, I was going to say for young people, but I think it's true for a lot of people. We find purpose in achievement.

Brandy Schantz (01:20.329)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (01:21.516)
we're young, we're trying to figure out who we'll be and how, we're be successful, what that looks like. And we chase this or that, I don't know, school achievements as a young person, if you have that kind of predilection. Or maybe it's sports achievement, whatever it is, like you're chasing achievement as you get further along in life, you're chasing professional achievement, you're trying to make money, you're trying to be successful. And it often is what people think they're getting out of the bed for, right? And during the week at least.

Brandy Schantz (01:49.448)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (01:50.578)
And sometimes you feel like, well, I'm doing this, but then on the weekends I live my life and you have this sense of trying to achieve and then separating that from your life. And those, both those things, I give you a sense of purpose, that the sense of I'm getting out of bed in the morning for this thing, whatever it is, again, achievement. And we can confuse that with meaning. And this is a big part of what I say in the talk.

And we have this sense sometimes that if we can only get this thing, grab the back brass ring or get this big house or whatever, we're gonna be happy, the life will feel fulfilled. Life will feel meaningful and that generally is not the case. And if you've lived long enough and had some successes, you realize that, This is not something that is hard to see in most people's lives.

Brandy Schantz (02:32.595)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (02:41.29)
What I argue is that meaning usually requires caring for something beyond the self. In part what we really want and need to have a sense of meaning, I suggest, is something like transcending the self, being more than what is right now.

Brandy Schantz (02:57.277)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (03:00.268)
being attached to or engaged with something more than just material success or some particular achievement because those things fade. What we really want is to expand beyond this moment or even what we can see in the future. And that I think requires a deep connection to other people.

Brandy Schantz (03:07.25)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (03:24.641)
I really love that insight and I wish I had listened to you and you know read your work when I first went through my own diagnosis because I've learned that I'm a lot like so many of us. I was very much defined by my career, my achievements, how much money I made, my athletic abilities and how much I was able to win or get ahead or improve or all these things.

And when I first was diagnosed with Crohn's disease, I kept thinking, well, I can just recapture what I was able to do in my career in a different way. But I never shifted how I would really do that because I kept thinking to myself, make money, improve in my career. And I never thought accommodate Crohn's. And then, of course, after I suffered my reaction, I kept saying, well, if I can just get back to triathlons and getting and doing my Iron Man's, I'll be fine. The Iron Man's, I'll be fine. And

It took me starting this podcast in a way just to figure out what to do, because I couldn't, I couldn't figure out how to wake up in the morning. And I always say I started the podcast to start crying, to stop crying, I should say. But what I found was when I started helping other people, and then I moved into new positions that I had never been in before, where I was helping other disabled people, both through state programs and through consulting work and policy.

I really found that I did transcend myself and that's how I finally healed and it took years. But I think it's really important for, I don't think we get it immediately, but I think it's very important for people going through large changes in their lives or something traumatic to understand that that is, you know, it's not just, if I can just get back to making over 300,000 a year, if I could just get back to being the head of this, or if I can just get back to my Ironman competition, everything will be fine.

There's something else there. And that kind of insight you provide, I think, is super important for people like myself and my listeners.

Brian (05:27.118)
Yeah, mean, it's funny, I just finished recording an episode for my podcast. It's called Know What You See if you're curious about it. And I was talking about in this upcoming episode about how we all have to evolve at some point in our lives, that what we are now won't be available to us at some point in the future for all sorts of reasons, some of which we cannot predict and have no control over. So you get a diagnosis of some sort and it really upends

your sense of who you've been and the things you can do. Or, you know, it might be gradual, it's just aging. Like at some point, there things that are available to us that won't always be available to us. And that requires, at some point in our lives, and maybe to some extent continually, but for us to find paths to new selves that provide a sense of purpose and meaning. And that is tough because we aren't really good at predicting

what life will feel like in a space that we've never been in, right? So you get diagnosed with something in your case, an example you gave, and you have this, and as you described it, like if only I could get here, I'll feel, it'll feel like this or it'll feel like that, but.

Brandy Schantz (06:32.69)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (06:42.082)
you don't know what that will be because it's a brand new experience for you. You're really bad at forecasting how we'll react in those brand new experiences. And so, I mean, one, requires some degree of experimentation. Are you going to try to be someone new? You're not going to get it right, right? You're going to make mistakes because you're not able to predict how it will feel. So you'll try out things and ways, beliefs or ways of being or behaviors that sometimes won't be quite right.

Brandy Schantz (06:48.925)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (07:11.394)
that won't feel like they fit and you know what, that's okay. So I think this need to evolve after some event or.

some change in your life requires giving yourself grace too, right? Like you're not gonna get it right. You don't know who that person is gonna be. You are discovering who you will be. You are creating who you will be. You are not just, you know, you don't know what that is and how to do it until you've stumbled through it. And that's okay.

Brandy Schantz (07:26.727)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (07:44.073)
No, you're absolutely right. It's interesting. know, if you've anybody who's experienced something like this, you know, I'm in my late 40s, but so much of what I've gone through, I feel like I'm 18 again, 16, 17, you know, trying to figure out what next, what should I do? Do I like this? Am I going to fail at this? Will I succeed? It is a struggle and being able to understand that I think is so important. It really is.

You know, so much of this also is very parallel to, you you talk about shaping identity and how it's shaped by others. So can you explain how this dynamic plays out just in daily life, especially for people like myself navigating chronic illness?

Brian (08:29.868)
Yeah, I mean, we have this idea of complete self-definition, I think is wrong. We all live in communities, right? We all live surrounded by other people and the reality is those people matter. And it's not as if you are who you are and they are who they are and then sometimes you interact. No, it's you're constantly in conversation with those people. It doesn't just mean talking to them. I mean, there's a back and forth about who you are together, right? And in close relationships, we understand this completely, right? So you have a...

Brandy Schantz (08:36.883)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (08:55.401)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (08:59.778)
you have a child or you have a romantic partner you live with, people who are like are in your life every day, you have this sense of like push and pull about who am I and who are you.

Right, so if you have a child that's giving you a hard time as a parent, like you're trying to respond to that and you're wondering, am I doing a good job? Who am I here? What kind of parent am I? What kind of person am I? Like there's this constant evolution of who you are in response to how they see you and who they are. That's true in all, like you can see this in close relationships. And my argument is that this is true in our life in all places. It's just harder to see in other situations.

If you walk out and you see yourself as somehow, there's some physical limitation. There's not something you're able to do that you couldn't do before. And you're engaging with other people. Like how do they see that? How do they see you? Is it gonna be a part of how you start to understand who you are, right? You don't know and you're trying to make sense of it in your environment. Other people are participating with you in constructing how you understand yourself. And I think that's a hard thing for people to sometimes

Brandy Schantz (09:46.579)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (10:05.336)
take on board because it's scary not to feel like you completely self-define yourself or you completely self-define

Brandy Schantz (10:15.177)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (10:16.248)
But again, with a little bit of reflection, I think it's easy to see that that's not the case. And that's not the case, not just for people who seem somehow outside of what we think of as the norm. That's true for everyone, right? When I step out of the house, people see me as a man. What does that mean? And I have to present myself as a man to them, then understand who I am. And I'm reacting to what they think that means. As a black person, as an academic, all these identities that I have are...

Brandy Schantz (10:37.949)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (10:44.918)
reacting to and responding to and engaging with how other people see me. So it's not just want to be clear about this. I sometimes talk about, or I've talked about sexuality, right? And I've had a conversation with people who are trans individuals. And the point I make is like, we're all in the same position. It's just harder for some people than others in a way, right? We're all navigating the social world and

Brandy Schantz (10:57.534)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (11:10.098)
Right?

Brian (11:14.574)
trying to be seen in a way that fits with how we see ourselves. And for some people, how we see ourselves more easily matches with how other people see us and others that's less true. But we're all out there, you know, and in the mix of it, you know, just trying to make it.

Brandy Schantz (11:30.353)
Yeah, you know, no, you're absolutely right. And, you know, I think for many of us, we struggle, you you struggle throughout your life in various ways. I know, I mean, I was a female army officer. I knew that I had to act a certain way to, you know, continue with that relationship with others and how they viewed me as a woman who is in the army and an officer, no doubt. And now I find myself struggling because in my head, I still, and I'm sure

this all happening at the cusp of my mid age didn't help, but I find myself struggling because I still see myself in a certain light. And when people who understand and know I have all these diseases, they look at me in a very different way. And I feel like I'm always kind of battling those two things while letting them know that. And I really just started becoming good at this, you know, letting people know, no, you need to see me differently. And let me tell you how you should be seeing me.

because this is what I'm able to accomplish as a person with Crohn's disease, drug-induced lupus, and dysautonomia. But it is an everyday struggle, and sometimes, depending on who I'm speaking with, their vision of me reflects onto how I feel about myself at that moment. Well, maybe I should be less active. Maybe I should be sleeping more or doing these other things that you're supposed to do in this world of being a disabled, chronically ill person.

Brian (12:56.334)
Yeah, you know, it's a strange thing to be forced to see that your identity is a negotiation with other people. Like for many people, it's like they, it's so easy to accept the,

Brandy Schantz (13:06.601)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (13:12.696)
the fact that how you see yourself and other people see you matches up, that it doesn't feel like a negotiation at all. It feels like it's just people recognize the truth, like I'm this and everybody sees I'm that and that's because I am. But when something shifts and then you start the negotiation becomes more apparent to you. And that's what I'm talking about negotiations and what you just described, right? Someone sees you in this way, you see yourself in that way, you're trying to get them to see you in the way you see yourself. That is a negotiation over who you are.

Brandy Schantz (13:17.436)
Right.

Brandy Schantz (13:41.033)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (13:42.592)
Like most people most of the time don't see it as negotiation because it's so easy to come to an agreement. But my point is like it's still a negotiation. It's just an easy one for most people. that's not true for everyone. And you know, in some dimensions it's hard and some dimensions it's easy for people. So it's really, it highlights the importance of the fact that we are fundamentally social creatures.

Brandy Schantz (13:49.993)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (13:54.395)
Right.

Brandy Schantz (14:09.093)
Yes, yes we are. Yeah, those dynamics are very interesting and I think, you know, particularly as it pertains to living with chronic illness, you know, I could probably talk about it for hours. It's a journey. None of us get to a good place quickly and I think, you know, your insights are spot on. We are always struggling with this. We are always negotiating with others on how to view us. So,

And for many of us it's new maybe you're diagnosed very young maybe you're like me and you didn't get diagnosed until your middle age and you're trying to figure out what does this mean after living your life for 40 years or longer as one particular person and now you have to adjust and explore and find again who you are as this new person.

Brian (14:57.806)
Mm-hmm. And you know, I...

Again, I think that we all go through that. It's just sometimes it's stark, right? Sometimes the break is very clear. Like I was person, I was this person at time one, something happened and now I'm a different person. Like it's usually just not that clean for people. But there, you know, I think it's comparing it to other things like you were not a parent, you have a child, boom, you're a parent, right? There's just a hard break and there's like,

Brandy Schantz (15:28.893)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (15:30.896)
the pre and the post, the before and the after, right? But most of the time, just like that line isn't as clear, but when that line is clear and the break is one that's hard to accept or one which on the after side people don't understand, I think that can be really tough for people.

Brandy Schantz (15:48.317)
Certainly well and especially when there's fluidity to it and for many of us living with chronic illness You know one day I'm outside and I am running it doesn't look anything like it used to but I'm running and then another day Maybe I have to use a cane because I can barely move both of those Versions of me or me and I think you know when it's fluid like that well, especially you know personalities You know everybody's gonna look at it differently. Some people have their bad day and want to quit

I view everything as a challenge, it's a problem, still working on that. I'm also overly optimistic. If I run one day, I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna compete again. You know, I won't. I like to think I will. But I think that fluidity can sometimes be very difficult because it's not just a one change. It's day by day by day. And each day I wake up and I just don't know what person I'm going to be.

Brian (16:41.57)
Yeah, you know, I, that's tough. And there's something about it that is just the nature of life. Like the reality is like, life is like that, right? We, it is fluid.

Brandy Schantz (16:55.335)
It is.

Brian (16:57.942)
And again, I think the sense of stability is actually the more the delusion, right? The feeling that it's the same all the time is, I think not right, but we, it feels comfortable. So when we are allowed to see ourselves in that way, we do. But the reality is I honestly think that there's, there's an all of us life is churning, right? Every day is a different thing. Every day is a challenge. We just sometimes

are allowed to use yesterday as a way of making sense of today. And sometimes that's harder to do than others.

Brandy Schantz (17:31.825)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (17:36.357)
Certainly and I think part of that too comes down to feeling included and Being in environments that are inclusive and that is another Point you talk about a lot and I really enjoy that I You know this particular podcast is not a political podcast I do advocacy work and when I'm doing advocacy advocacy work I always tell people I'm here as the party of my issue

I'm here as the party of disability rights. I'm here as the party of, know, whatever it is that I'm, you know, trying to make happen. And I can, you know, I'm good I'm good at this. You know, this is what I do. I can sell you, tell me what you're, what you find important. I will make this important to you. So that being said, I know that DEI right now has all of the buzz and everybody's talking about it. I've been pretty loud and proud about how

However you feel about it, however you want to rebrand it, I think it's very important to hire with it inclusivity for disabled workers and there's a very good case study for it and that case study is a business case study because this is very good for business, profits, profit margins, the economy. can hit this in every direction, it's good. You've talked a lot about building inclusive communities in respect to how we feel and those around us. How do you feel about

how that pertains to especially marginalized communities in health, but also all of us as a society, how is this going to affect us and how can we find ways to better include ourselves, include others, or feel included, particularly in the workforce?

Brian (19:19.618)
Yeah, that's a good question. know, wading into this whole thing about D and I, I'll just say, I said this to you earlier that I'm not a fan of the political use of the term. That was before there's been a huge, I'd call it backlash to it also. I think...

Brandy Schantz (19:36.809)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (19:42.914)
that most people, at least people of good faith, would be on board with the idea that everyone should have a chance. I don't hear people saying like, I'm opposed to everyone having a chance. I don't think people are opposed to everyone should be treated fairly. Like if they get a job, they should feel like they can come to that job and do their job and not worry about how the group they belong to affects how they're gonna be judged.

Brandy Schantz (19:50.205)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (20:06.358)
I don't think anybody is anti-equity in that sense. Like I've never heard anyone pro-DAI or anti-DAI suggested, no, I'm opposed to people being treated fairly independent of the groups they belong to or their identities. And I don't hear anyone saying like, you know what I'm for? I'm for exclusion. I've never heard anyone say that. in a way, those are things that I care about. I care about how we live together. I care about

Brandy Schantz (20:17.385)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (20:23.663)
Right now.

Brian (20:34.51)
how we can provide an opportunity for everyone to thrive. Now, the language around DEI, particularly, I'm not gonna try to support every policy. I don't, some of the policies I think are good, some of them are terrible. So there's the idea of some kind of dogma attached to DEI is deeply problematic to me. I think...

engaging in the conversation on those terms is a mistake. Like I just don't, I just refuse to engage in those terms. Meaning that I'm going to defend or go against DE &I because I don't know what people mean by that.

Brandy Schantz (21:00.251)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (21:12.294)
Right.

Brian (21:12.906)
Here's what I will defend. I will defend the right of everyone to live a positive life. I'll defend the right of everyone to have equal access to the goods that our society produces. have no problem defending that in any context. If you have different abilities or you are struggling with some kind of disease, that does not mean that therefore you shouldn't have access to a good life. I don't...

Brandy Schantz (21:39.035)
Right.

Brian (21:39.79)
And again, think most people of good faith would agree with that. And where we differ on like, I think again, with people of good faith is how we achieve that. And I'm happy to have a conversation about like, I think this policy works and I don't think that same policy works. That's I think a completely reasonable conversation and people of good faith can disagree. And they should, because we should try to find the thing that works best. So I think...

Brandy Schantz (21:50.141)
Right.

Brian (22:08.558)
Going back, I think to the root of this question, I think that as a society, we should care that everyone has the chance to be successful, to engage, to contribute, and that we should look for ways that allow that to happen and take into account that we are a diverse society. that is, honestly, think that's a good thing. That is a good thing.

Brandy Schantz (22:33.161)
It's very good. No, absolutely it's very good. I sell people on hire disabled. That's my biggest message, particularly in my business. disabled, chronically ill, healthy, black, white, first in your family to ever go to college, 40th generation to get a higher education, whatever it is, these different perspectives add value. We add value.

and I am a different person today than I was 20 years ago, which is true for everybody if you've lived that long. You're a different person today than you were 20 years ago, or at least I hope you are. But certainly I'm very different in respect to the fact that my entire life has changed and I've been forced to learn to live life in a very different way and I think that makes me a better employee. And I would say the same for many things. you know, when I read a lot of what you're saying, you know, what you've done and talking about

building inclusive communities. I do think of that in terms of the workforce as well because I think what we really need to be talking about is inclusion of everybody. This isn't an exclusionary process and it shouldn't be. And if people don't like the word DEI, I say it all the time, then get rid of it. I'm not here to brand things. I'm not in marketing.

Brian (23:50.35)
100%. Exactly.

100%. I have said, I don't care what you call it. think all the branding, really, honestly, right now is quite troubling to me that somehow DNI has become a brand because we were like, we're going to get rid of DEI. And I'm like, I don't know what that means. It's a political slogan. So sure, if you want to get rid of political slogan, but is DEI like, is it the 1960s? it Civil Rights Act? Is DEI like the

Brandy Schantz (24:11.313)
Yeah.

Brandy Schantz (24:20.648)
Yeah.

Brian (24:22.094)
Brown v. Board of Education, is D-E-N-R-I accessibility rights? What are you going to get rid of exactly? You're going to get rid of things that support the ability of people from different backgrounds to contribute to society? That's what you want to get rid of? I don't think that's what people mean. So if what you mean is like,

the political fight over the particular policies, name the policies, maybe I'm on board with you. Maybe they're policies you're like, you know, let's give it as policy and I might be like 100%. I agree. Or maybe I'm like, I'll fight with you about that. But that is a real conversation. It's hard for me to have a real conversation about a political slogan.

Brandy Schantz (24:49.448)
Right?

Brandy Schantz (25:02.281)
Absolutely, 10,000 % agree. And I think these are the conversations we need to be having most often because for many of us, know, when I say us, I mean, all of us really, this isn't one group. This isn't just my living chronic nation. This isn't just, you know, just the black people or just the immigrants or, you know, we were all coming from different perspectives and bringing us together in an inclusive way and focusing on what the desired outcome is.

That's I always say. What's the desired outcome? Is it to get into a fight with somebody about DEI? Or is it to make sure that people who are high performing employees have the access that they need? You know.

Brian (25:44.532)
Exactly. I want to disagree. And this is why my general attitude is always going to be like, if we have a conversation about the ad, you have the first time of what you mean. I have no position until I know what we're talking about. Right. And that I think is not allowing the debate to happen on grounds that don't make sense. Like, it's just not, it's not fruitful. It's not useful in my opinion.

Brandy Schantz (25:52.083)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (25:55.632)
Absolutely.

Brandy Schantz (26:06.501)
Now 100 agreed 100 agreed So, you know again, I I strongly encourage everybody to definitely listen to your ted talk Go to your website. You also have a podcast know what you see you mentioned it a little bit earlier Tell me a little bit more about your podcast

Brian (26:24.994)
Yeah, the podcast this season focuses on the question of what's the point. So I interview a lot of people like what do they do? these people, when you give your life to things, and I mean that quite literally, right now you're spending a lot of time thinking about how people with chronic disease can engage with life more effectively.

how people should think about this and how we make space for that in society and the workplace. And when you get up and you spend your time doing that, you're literally giving your life to that. And the question is like,

Brandy Schantz (27:01.673)
Thank

Brian (27:03.592)
interesting to look at other people and what they give their lives to and ask why. Why are you doing that? Like what is it about that that is worth the precious time you have on this earth? Like why are you thinking about that as much as you do? Why are you spending so much time on that? What is it about? What does it tell us? What does it tell me about how you live and how I live? And that's kind of the point of the podcast right now. It's examining in some sense.

Brandy Schantz (27:09.928)
Yeah.

Brian (27:33.324)
how people live as a window into thinking about ourselves and how we're living and maybe thinking about how we might live better.

Brandy Schantz (27:45.105)
I really love that. It's the asking the good questions and the why. And I really think a lot of what you're talking about is so important, particularly at this point in time. Asking people why, why is this important to you? And having the conversation. I really love so much about social media and what we have now with the internet because

You know, I can find anything and everything and people and learn. I've learned so much about my disease, myself, who I am, where I want to be from others. Of course, a lot comes out of it that isn't so great either. And one of those things, I think, is just walking up to somebody and saying, Hi, Brian, why do you do what you do?

Brian (28:30.405)
Mm-hmm. You know, I think we spend so much of our lives on mundane things, right? So it's like, you you have to do the laundry. You have to figure out what you're gonna have for breakfast or what you're gonna eat for dinner. You have to get yourself to work or get the kids to school or whatever. These are just tasks.

Brandy Schantz (28:36.254)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (28:47.982)
And then it's easy to let that overwhelm our lives. And for many people, there's not much space beyond how am I gonna pay my bills and how am I gonna take care of the other necessities in my life and the people I care about in my life.

And that can also devolve into grievances too on the negative side where you're upset that it's so hard or you don't feel like you're getting what you should be getting and other people are or whatever that is. And it's just, I really lament how small life can be when we're overwhelmed by these mundane details and grievances. It's just living a small life and that's not.

Brandy Schantz (29:09.225)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Brandy Schantz (29:24.648)
Yes.

Brian (29:32.544)
meant to, it's not meant to denigrate anyone. It's just, I really mean that it's like hard to pull yourself out of that because it's so much of what we're forced to deal with day in and day out. And for me, stepping back and asking a larger question is really a chance for people to examine, is there more?

Brandy Schantz (29:43.677)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (29:53.332)
Is there more than just getting through the day? Is there more than just these like grievances born of frustration or boredom or a feeling of lacking something you deserve? What more is there and how do we lean into that? Because I honestly believe if people...

Brandy Schantz (29:53.488)
Right.

Brandy Schantz (30:08.989)
Mm-hmm.

Brian (30:15.694)
can find a way to move beyond that space of these kind of mundane details, the smallness of life, not their life, like just the smallness of life of anyone that we'd all be better off. I mean, I think we would engage with each other differently. We would show more interest in other people's lives as a part of enriching our own lives. Again, not as like, for me, I tell people sometimes some of this, looks like be a good person. And I'm like,

Brandy Schantz (30:22.086)
Right.

Brandy Schantz (30:34.257)
Absolutely.

Brian (30:45.012)
live a good life and you will be a good person. And the question then is how do you help people live better lives? And for me, what I can do is just help them as best I can to ask different types of questions about the life they're living, pull them out of these small things and let them give them room to breathe and to think about their own lives a little bit differently.

Brandy Schantz (30:48.073)
.

Brandy Schantz (31:03.431)
Yes.

Brandy Schantz (31:08.615)
I really love that. think so often in life, you know, we forget the basics and I always love to go back to Maslow's hierarchy and remind people self-actualization is way at the top. if we, yeah, if we just take a step back, like you said, and ask the questions that gives somebody who's still at the bottom struggling at that pyramid, that opportunity.

to maybe touch that top for a moment and it gives you an opportunity to interact with that person in a different way and understand in a better way as well.

Brian (31:44.042)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, agreed. Agreed. I love this conversation and I really appreciate the work you're doing in this area. So again, really want to thank you so much for letting me have this conversation with you.

Brandy Schantz (32:00.923)
Now, thank you so much for coming on. Like I said, I really love what you do so much of what you're putting out there. I think it's, and I just really think it is important. We got to have these conversations. We have to take a step back and you know, whether you're just trying to struggle and grieve your former self and get to that self actualization in some way, or if you're just struggling with what's happening right now in the world and asking yourselves, what can we do?

Brian (32:12.28)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (32:31.057)
Well, hey, you know what? Tune in to your podcast, know what you see, because that is a good way. And in your everyday life, ask somebody the question, hi, who are you? Why do you do what you do?

Brian (32:44.876)
Yeah, well, yeah, I agree. And I don't say the same thing for people listening, like keep listening to this podcast, right? It's a way to think about where you are and where you'd like to be. And that's, you know, that's a lot of what it is to be a human.

Brandy Schantz (32:59.987)
Certainly is, certainly is. That's an amazing thought to end on. Thank you so much, Brian. I really appreciate you coming on. This is a great conversation. I'd love to have another conversation. Like I said, I don't dive into politics or anger, but I do love taking things apart and saying, what is our goal and how do we get there? So I love this conversation.

Brian (33:21.854)
Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I love to talk to you again and I agree to a great way. think moving beyond politics, politics are only a means to an end. If you don't know where you're trying to go, politics is just a place to be lost. So I appreciate that position. So thanks. All right. Take care. Bye bye.

Brandy Schantz (33:30.503)
Yes.

Brandy Schantz (33:35.049)
Well said, very well said. Absolutely. Thank you so much, Friain.