Healing Trauma Through Dual Brain Psychology

In this conversation, Brandy Schantz interviews Dr. Frederick Schiffer, a psychiatrist and author, about his work in dual brain psychology. They discuss the concept of dual brain psychology, which posits that each hemisphere of the brain can support a separate mind, and how trauma can affect mental health. Dr. Schiffer explains his treatment techniques, including visual stimulation and photobiomodulation, and emphasizes the mind-body connection in addressing chronic illness and pain. In this conversation, Brandy Schantz and Dr. Fred Schiffer explore the intricate relationship between mental health, trauma, and addiction. They discuss how trauma can lead to substance abuse, particularly in the context of the opioid crisis, and emphasize the importance of addressing underlying trauma rather than merely treating addiction. Dr. Schiffer introduces his concept of Dual Brain Psychology, which focuses on the duality of the mind in healing from trauma and addiction. They also touch on the promising results of ongoing research into new treatment methods and the need for FDA approval to bring these innovations to the public.

Transcript

Brandy Schantz (00:01.356)
This is Brandy Shantz and you're listening to Living Chronic today. I'm here with dr. Frederick Schiffer He is a psychiatrist and author of the books dual brain and of two Minds so welcome. I there's actually much longer Titles there, but I'm gonna make sure to put those in the notes so that I don't mess them up But welcome to the show. I'm so happy that you're here so I'm I'm really excited you're here because since you know, I guess

Fred Schiffer (00:22.924)
Thank you. Thank you very much.

Brandy Schantz (00:30.074)
to say everything happened to me, I have done a lot of reading about the mind, the mind-body connection. So I've really enjoyed learning more about what you do, which is study dual brain. So if you could just tell us a little bit more about that.

Fred Schiffer (00:46.862)
Right. let me, so I have a new book out. And I'll just plug it here. It's probably coming up backwards, but it's called Goodbye Anxiety, Depression, Addiction and PTSD, the Life-Changing Science of Dual-Brain Psychology. And it's on Amazon.

Brandy Schantz (00:55.014)
bit.

Yep.

Brandy Schantz (01:14.492)
Available next day delivery too.

Fred Schiffer (01:16.462)
Yeah, okay. And my other book is, as you pointed out, it's called Of Two Minds. That's an earlier book. And so there we go. Okay. I just wanted to straighten that out. So where would you like me to start?

Brandy Schantz (01:39.58)
You know, some of the things that were so fascinating to me was talking about, you know, that dual brain and treating the immature troubled half of the brain. I know you and I talked about doing a couple of little tests, but you know, as somebody who I myself suffer from PTSD, you know, reading about this particular type of treatment is fascinating. I know there's a lot of different ideas out there of ways you could treat PTSD.

Fred Schiffer (01:46.359)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (02:07.548)
cognitive behavioral therapy, think, seems to be the one that I hear about the most. And of course, I've also heard a lot about microdosing, LSD, things like that. But this really seemed very tangible to me, probably because I keep reading more about the mind-body connection over the years. So it just felt very tangible and like something you could really reach out and understand. Whereas I think many of us who are not in the medical field,

hear about some of these things and think, that really work? What does that mean? But this did feel very tangible to me.

Fred Schiffer (02:42.414)
So why don't I explain first what my hypothesis is and maybe how I arrived at it and and what the treatment component of it is. So I'm a psychiatrist. I was trained at Harvard at McLean Hospital and I've stayed there for decades and I'm still there.

Brandy Schantz (02:51.163)
Mm-hmm.

Fred Schiffer (03:12.398)
And so I've done about 30 plus years of research with multiple publications and a few books on this. And the idea is my theory is called dual brain psychology. And it's that I've learned over the years that each brain hemisphere

can support a separate mind. Now they both have the same social security number and the same address, and they go by the same name. But if you stimulate, and it's easy to stimulate one brain hemisphere or the other, you get a different personality. that, so the hypothesis based on years of research,

Brandy Schantz (03:48.88)
Mm-hmm.

Fred Schiffer (04:11.022)
and research that has supported it with a lot of imaging studies and clinical trials and serious research that's unusual for a psychological theory. So the idea is that trauma is the cause of all of the psychiatric problems that I've encountered.

Brandy Schantz (04:37.67)
Mm-hmm.

Fred Schiffer (04:38.35)
true of the whole world, but it's true of my world. And that usually people don't realize how the trauma, especially early trauma, affects them. And it gets stuck in one brain hemisphere. And so the result is that on one side, there's an immature traumatized person. And on the other side, you're the same person

But the personality is very different. And I'll look different on one side or the other. And it's very easy to stimulate one hemisphere or the other with a visual technique. And I also use photobiomodulation, which we could talk about later. But the visual technique is very simple. And I'll use my book to demonstrate it. You cover one eye.

Brandy Schantz (05:10.076)
Mm-hmm.

Fred Schiffer (05:36.532)
and the middle of the other eye. So I'm looking out the lateral half of my right eye. And so that's my right lateral visual field. when I first did it, I just used my hands went like this and and I asked my first patient to try that. And he was a Vietnam veteran who had

several tours of duty and had PTSD was doing quite well. But when I asked him to do that, he got very upset and he said, that plant behind you looks like the jungle. And I said, well, look out the other side. And he smiled. He said, no, it's a nice second plant. And so in my practice, when people look out one lateral visual field or the other,

Brandy Schantz (06:16.521)
yeah.

Fred Schiffer (06:34.542)
I can look different. I can look supportive on one side and critical on the other side, like maybe their parent was or someone. And so the focus of dual brain psychology is to treat the troubled side. And that usually when the patient comes in, the two sides are fighting.

Brandy Schantz (06:57.233)
Mm-hmm.

Fred Schiffer (07:03.768)
where the troubled side dominates and doesn't give the health, they don't even know they have a healthy side. so the therapy is to try to talk with the troubled side as in a typical therapy, know, what are you feeling and what's that remind you of? And where we go is to the trauma.

Brandy Schantz (07:10.362)
Mm-hmm.

Fred Schiffer (07:31.758)
And then I try and list the healthy side to be sort of a co-therapist. And also it's very instructive to the patient to be able to, with a simple technique, feel better and feel, I can handle it. And it reduces their anxiety and their depression. so just looking at one side in itself.

Brandy Schantz (07:32.006)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (07:46.938)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Fred Schiffer (07:59.406)
isn't a cure, but it's an aid. And oftentimes if someone's upset about something, they can grab an envelope or their hands and look out that one side and actually make a big change in their outlook and their feelings. And that's very helpful to my patients.

Brandy Schantz (08:20.645)
Mm-hmm.

Fred Schiffer (08:28.938)
to have someone in your head who can feel good is surprising and unexpected and can show the troubled side that there's hope.

Brandy Schantz (08:50.084)
Yeah, I thought it was very interesting to read about, particularly, you know, again, associated with that anxiety because I've been, I've everybody who listens to my show is very aware of the trauma I experienced in my medical health. I definitely suffered a lot of medical trauma. I also suffer from PTSD from my time during serving in the army.

Fred Schiffer (09:09.112)
Hmm.

Fred Schiffer (09:14.861)
Right.

Brandy Schantz (09:16.824)
And I have tried various things and I've often said that sometimes I feel like the anxiety is not there. I'm fine. And then other days, very small things trigger it and I cannot get past it. So learning a bit about dual brain made me think, well, you know, maybe there is, maybe I know how to use that other side of my brain and it's just, I don't know how to get past the trigger over there.

Fred Schiffer (09:27.83)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (09:44.218)
So when you have a patient who you're going through this with, how do you kind of take that next step to figuring out how to overcome that traumatized side of the brain?

Fred Schiffer (09:56.594)
Okay, I see the two sides. It's sort of like there was a Steve Martin movie in the, I think it was in 1980s called The Two of Us. And Lily Tomlin was meditating with her guru and there was a terrible accident. The humming bowl slipped out of the guru's hands and tumbled down a flight of stairs in Manhattan.

And as a result of this accident, Lily Tomlin's mind got embedded in Steve Martin's brain. so you say, so Steve Martin is the embodiment. And, and, and you see him going like this, where Lily Tomlin wants to go downtown and he wants to go uptown in Manhattan. And, and, and she's screaming at him and he's telling her to shut up. And, and, and this is really what happens in, in real people. In other words, the two sides can fight.

Brandy Schantz (10:56.57)
Mm-hmm.

Fred Schiffer (10:59.0)
predominant. Sometimes one, as I said, one side and usually if someone's coming for help, they're symptomatic. So usually it's the troubled side that's dominating. so one of the interesting things is, it's just like real people that if someone said to Lily Tomlin, don't take that from him, you know, go on downtown, you know, it would embolden her.

Brandy Schantz (11:10.896)
Mm-hmm.

Fred Schiffer (11:26.894)
And if Steve Martin said, now calm down now, you know, we need to work together and, you know, stop yelling at me and that you can actually affect the hemisphere by talking to it. And I talk to each person and

Brandy Schantz (11:50.204)
Mm-hmm.

Fred Schiffer (11:55.534)
And I actually have sunglasses that were and that these stimulate one hemisphere or the other. If you put them on, they look like normal sunglasses. But they actually stimulate one side or the other. And so I'll ask the patient to wear them to bring out the troubled side and talk to it.

Brandy Schantz (12:10.406)
Mm-hmm.

Fred Schiffer (12:24.43)
and say, well, that must have really been difficult. then we'll flip it to the other side. And I'll talk to the healthier side and say, well, that side's really frightened. And you really need to understand it and not be angry about it. that it's misguided and needs your help.

So, how to bring out the healthy side is to be aware that there is a healthy side. And if it works for you, use the lateral vision. that's, excuse me, that actually is very powerful. And these glasses are powerful.

Brandy Schantz (13:21.178)
Mm-hmm.

Fred Schiffer (13:24.238)
And I also have an LED that I put on the forehead. It's called a photobiomodulation. I'm going to set this here so it stops rocking. sorry. So with the photobiomodulation, we're doing a study for fentanyl addiction. It's a

a large NIH study for the FDA. And we're getting, we think we're getting great results because many of the fentanyl addicts are doing well, both with their dose and they're feeling well and doing well. Half of the patients get a sham treatment and half get an active treatment. And it's just a four minute light treatment.

Brandy Schantz (13:59.312)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (14:19.888)
Mm-hmm.

Fred Schiffer (14:22.958)
There aren't any side effects so far and I've been doing it actually for 15 years and other people are doing it. It's a burgeoning field now. It's called photobiomodulation. But I'm the only person who puts the light over the positive hemisphere. Once you use the eye test, I determine which is the positive side.

Brandy Schantz (14:28.869)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (14:45.486)
Okay.

Fred Schiffer (14:51.53)
And the light is two or three times more powerful than the glasses, or the eye maneuver. But the eye maneuver is easier to do. You just put your hands up or put sunglasses on. so in my practice, usually by the end of the session, I give the person a light treatment and have a

Brandy Schantz (15:07.941)
Right.

Fred Schiffer (15:20.663)
study going on right now for depression and getting great results.

Brandy Schantz (15:25.455)
Right? Yeah, I thought the infrared was very interesting because I'm familiar with it. You know, I know an infrared sauna. I love an infrared sauna. I've used infrared and other, you know, I know there's a lot of other ladies out there were trying to battle wrinkles. I've got my little infrared light I put on my face to, you know, make me look a little less old. So this idea that it could also help.

Fred Schiffer (15:31.726)
Mm-hmm.

Fred Schiffer (15:36.023)
Right.

Fred Schiffer (15:43.853)
Bye.

Brandy Schantz (15:51.072)
with my anxiety, with my PTSD, with my depression is pretty fascinating. And I wonder how much, you know, using it on a daily basis, you know, would be able to help just in overall health.

Fred Schiffer (16:03.886)
Yeah, I actually use it almost every day, you know, and I don't have time, don't, but I would say that I use it about five times a week. And I use it for cognitive enhancement. so I'm not, except when I'm choking now.

Brandy Schantz (16:11.088)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Fred Schiffer (16:30.265)
I'm not really anxious now, so I'm not really very symptomatic, but I feel that it gives me a little cognitive edge. But you have to use it on one side. So if you're using the sauna, you're radiating both sides. And that might give some benefit, but you're also stimulating

Brandy Schantz (16:41.873)
right.

Brandy Schantz (16:49.125)
Right.

Right, it's just all over.

Fred Schiffer (16:58.082)
the troubled side. And also your trauma was later, other words, major trauma occurred as an adult. so I don't know if it's as lateralized. Most of the people I see have dysfunctional families and maybe an alcoholic father or a demeaning mother and or a bullying brother. These are the kinds of traumas that I typically see.

Brandy Schantz (16:59.172)
right?

Brandy Schantz (17:10.018)
Yes, most of it, yeah.

Brandy Schantz (17:21.233)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (17:28.208)
Mm-hmm.

Fred Schiffer (17:28.232)
and their childhood traumas and they seem to get lost on one side. Did you have an effect when you tried it looking laterally?

Brandy Schantz (17:40.06)
You know, I did, I kept trying it a few times after we first discussed it and I, and I did, I tried thinking of a few different things. Um, I think I felt a lot when I thought about, uh, my time in Afghanistan, actually, of course that's been, I mean, it's 20 years on at this point. Um, but, um, but it did, you know, do something. So, uh, you know, it, it certainly made sense to me. You know, I definitely felt, so I was.

Fred Schiffer (17:57.57)
Yeah, but it doesn't go away.

Fred Schiffer (18:05.416)
What did it do?

Brandy Schantz (18:09.488)
thinking about the time, my time in Afghanistan like we discussed, and I was looking at a photo of me and my husband and you we served in the army together. And when I covered one side, you know, everything felt, you know, scary and I started getting really anxious. And then the other side and I felt very happy looking at the photo of us. So it was stark, it was stark.

Fred Schiffer (18:36.094)
that interesting? Yeah. Okay, that's cool. Okay. So that's a good response. And so I always take a risk if I bring it up because, you know, if someone doesn't respond, sounds, you know, like it's a failure. so you had a good response. And that's, and you can use that. So as you said, you know, if you want to pull up your mature side,

Brandy Schantz (18:42.576)
Yeah.

Brandy Schantz (18:49.807)
Yeah.

Brandy Schantz (18:53.946)
That can't be. Right.

Fred Schiffer (19:05.922)
you look out that side. And then if you want to talk to the traumatized side, can, you know, look out the side that stimulates the negative hemisphere. And also, I want to say that we have a study that we published from McLean Hospital at Harvard, showing that just looking out one lateral visual field with the other, we had people go into an fMRI scanner.

with goggles that had tape on it. And if you looked out one side, it covered one eye and you only could see out half the other eye. then, so if you look to the left, you activated your right visual field and it lit up like a Christmas tree. And at the other side, it was dark. Now, it's not that only one side was working, but we were able to manipulate the data.

Brandy Schantz (19:34.395)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (19:51.75)
Interesting.

Fred Schiffer (20:00.408)
to exaggerate the difference between the sides. And when we did that, which we were allowed to do, because we had a hypothesis, it was really a fantastic result. And when the patient looked to the opposite side, the hemispheres switched and the other side lit up and the same side.

Brandy Schantz (20:04.572)
Right.

Brandy Schantz (20:23.313)
Mm-hmm.

Fred Schiffer (20:29.902)
and when you use like ipsilateral side, it was, was dark. It's just flipped. and, so it's, it, it, it's a real effect just, doing this simple maneuver of just, you know, covering one eye and half the other eye. And, and if you look out the hole, cover one eye and look out one eye, it's not going to work.

Brandy Schantz (20:35.898)
Right.

Mm-hmm.

Fred Schiffer (20:58.712)
because there you're stimulating both hemispheres. And that's why you have to cover half of one eye and look out the lateral portion. And if you're feeling distress, it might even help with physical symptoms. A lot of times I'll give someone a light treatment.

Brandy Schantz (20:58.811)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Brandy Schantz (21:10.16)
Mm-hmm.

Fred Schiffer (21:28.558)
and they'll say my chest pain went away. I didn't even know they were having chest pain. And one time, and this never happened again, but it was a couple of years ago, I had three people one day who said my hip pain went away. And I had them walk downstairs and walk up again. And I said, no, feels good. And now it didn't last and it wasn't a cure, but it was interesting. So it can affect

Brandy Schantz (21:31.066)
Right. Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (21:44.794)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (21:53.731)
Right.

Fred Schiffer (21:57.74)
the body because the mind is connected to the body.

Brandy Schantz (22:02.172)
Yeah, I think so many, especially my listeners, so many of us have chronic illness. We've read all the John E. Cerno books, Dr. John E. Cerno, especially, and for good and bad reasons, we have many different feelings associated with this because sometimes you go to a doctor and they say, well, it's all in your head. And no, it's not, doc. I have something very real. mean, it took me four years to get my diagnosis. It turns out it's not in my head at all. But that being said,

Fred Schiffer (22:07.864)
Yeah.

Brandy Schantz (22:31.516)
Many of us have been able to use therapy or other means to try to help along with our pain. And I've learned from my own experiences and reading about this and trying every, I've basically been at a point where I'll try anything if it might make me feel better. But the mind, as much as I wanna say that I have this strong aversion to pain, I could get through anything, I'm chronically ill.

I actually have a very weak tolerance because my mind associates anything with pain at this point. Everything that has happened to me over the last five years. I was starting to associate running with pain because every time I tried to run my joints and muscles seized up and I couldn't move. So I've started to learn that sometimes even though it may not, the source of my pain was not just in my head.

but my head associates so many things and I've been able to identify just an absurd list at this point of things that I've gone through that my mind now associates with pain and I sort of recoil like, gosh, this is gonna hurt. And I suddenly have a very low tolerance for pain as a result. So, you know, think this crowd, you my crowd, we really get it because, you know, yes, on one hand it can be frustrating if a doctor tries to dismiss you and say, it's in your head, it's all something.

Fred Schiffer (23:54.882)
Well, one, but see the mind is connected to the immune system. And if you're feeling anxious chronically or depressed, it has a negative impact on the immune system, you know, and so you can get more colds, you know, but you also can get, you know, these weird immune.

Brandy Schantz (23:55.576)
up there, but there is that connection.

Brandy Schantz (24:04.24)
Mm.

Brandy Schantz (24:13.712)
Mm-hmm.

Fred Schiffer (24:22.208)
responses, you know, that can affect your joints. And so the pain is real. And there is a connection with the both with, you know, muscle tension can can hurt a joint. But I think most of it is through the immune system, which is complicated, but responds to mental

Brandy Schantz (24:30.587)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (24:49.168)
Mm.

Fred Schiffer (24:52.162)
well-being or mental distress. that there is a definite connection between how we feel and how we perceive the world and actually which side is dominating and the immune system.

Brandy Schantz (24:56.049)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (25:14.65)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Fred Schiffer (25:17.502)
And did you notice any difference in your physical symptoms when you did that or did you not do the visual thing for a long enough time?

Brandy Schantz (25:25.904)
I didn't do it for a long time. right now, I'm in a period where compared to how I was feeling, I'm doing pretty good. Although, I should definitely probably do that for a long period of time when my muscles are starting to feel really particularly tight due to a long list of diagnosis I have today. But.

Fred Schiffer (25:37.87)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (25:53.402)
Yeah, think, yeah, I should definitely give that one a try. Because I have tried out, know, I tried, I love to experiment. I'll give anything a shot. So I have, you know, I do know that, you know, my mind can associate certain things with pain and it can, you know, at times get worse just because my mind is bringing me there. Like, here we go again.

Fred Schiffer (26:15.416)
Well, pain is a trauma. that's the thing about trauma, that it can begin with some childhood rejection and then school failures and then ridicule and then drug abuse. so each trauma adds

Brandy Schantz (26:44.164)
Mm-hmm.

Fred Schiffer (26:44.846)
you know, to the trauma and then it can mount up and then you can have people who really failed and they're living on the street and using fentanyl and that's who we're treating in our study. everybody in our study, with a few exceptions, has had three overdoses prior to coming in. And that

Brandy Schantz (26:52.816)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (27:06.896)
Wow, yeah.

Fred Schiffer (27:15.598)
not in the study, but prior to the study. So we haven't had any overdoses in the study. And I hope we get FDA approval from this study, from the FDA, and then we can bring it to the public.

Brandy Schantz (27:43.388)
Absolutely, well, mean, the numbers you were giving me when we talked about it are phenomenal. half, you assume the half that is not getting the placebo, their urge to have, to take the drug is down 90%. That's incredible.

Fred Schiffer (27:59.918)
Yeah, well, it's yeah, that's the top 10%. They're either 100 % offered or down to 90%. And the bottom 10 % have gotten worse by 15%. They've increased their dose 15%. And they usually drop out. And we can tell, I wouldn't say we can tell.

Brandy Schantz (28:05.401)
Yeah.

Brandy Schantz (28:18.524)
Mm-hmm.

Right. Mm-hmm.

Fred Schiffer (28:27.128)
But we hypothesize, can, a given person, we, we, they're not doing well and we suspect they're getting sham. And somebody else is doing real well and we suspect that they're getting the active treatment. And it's hard for us to believe that so many people would do well with a sham treatment, a placebo treatment. You know, me dealing with fentanyl.

Brandy Schantz (28:36.867)
Right.

Brandy Schantz (28:50.882)
Right? Now, yeah. Absolutely. you know, talk about this, trauma that contributes to, you know, in this case, fentanyl addiction and the pain that comes with all of that. You know, we know, you know, we're still learning a lot, but we know that many of the people who have these kinds of addictions came from trauma to get there. These are people who come from traumatic backgrounds, often come, yeah.

Fred Schiffer (29:04.045)
Mm-hmm.

Fred Schiffer (29:15.054)
Yeah, they all have. 100%.

Brandy Schantz (29:19.546)
So it makes sense. And we don't really talk about the trauma that leads to the addiction. Yeah, exactly. Lock them up. Lock them up. Instead of, what? Yeah, I'll just say no. Yeah.

Fred Schiffer (29:24.462)
No, lock them up, you know. Or just say no, you know, like Mrs. Reagan used to say.

Brandy Schantz (29:37.454)
Yes, yes. Well, I think now this is starting to get, I mean, it's been what 40, I guess it's been a while, but yes, we used to get those commercials all the time. I remember the egg cracking, but it is trauma. This isn't happening to groups of people who are walking into this without trauma. And the fentanyl and opioid epidemic really hit places like West Virginia hard because these people are living in trauma.

Fred Schiffer (29:44.568)
Mm-hmm.

Fred Schiffer (29:58.924)
Yeah, and every person that we...

Yeah. Right. Right. Exactly. And we evaluate them. We have trauma scales and so forth. They all have extensive trauma history. So we're not giving them therapy, psychotherapy, because it's too hard to study it. It confounds, you know, there's different therapists of different abilities and

Brandy Schantz (30:25.954)
Mm-hmm, right.

Right.

Fred Schiffer (30:31.458)
But the light is easy to, you know, if it works, it's a known quantity and comparing it to a sham is a fair comparison. So these people are getting better without psychotherapy. If you use it in my practice with psychotherapy, it's much more palpable. But we know...

Brandy Schantz (30:44.229)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (30:53.868)
It's far more efficient effective. Yeah, I I hope

Fred Schiffer (30:58.51)
from our scales. When they come in, they're given some trauma scales and they've all had severe trauma, which I would expect. And then the fentanyl is a huge trauma and they feel like failure and they can't get off this. each trauma kind of adds to the old trauma.

Brandy Schantz (31:11.44)
Yes.

Brandy Schantz (31:15.408)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (31:19.67)
just compounds.

Fred Schiffer (31:25.966)
And people forget about the old trauma. just, they'll say, well, I'm a drug addict and then feel really bad about themselves. And I like to say, I don't have any addicts in my practice. I have trauma victims who have abused drugs or use them destructively. And we want to attend to the trauma and the use. And interestingly, I can give

Brandy Schantz (31:26.213)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (31:31.556)
Yes. Right.

Brandy Schantz (31:40.592)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (31:47.353)
Mm-hmm.

Fred Schiffer (31:56.136)
either the glasses or the light treatment in my practice and someone can have drug cravings on one side and not have them on the other side and just flipping the glasses. And if I give somebody a light treatment, they can come in with

Brandy Schantz (32:13.925)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Fred Schiffer (32:25.166)
like an eight out of 10 craving for opioids. And after their treatment, it's either way down. Usually it's off. And that's true with alcohol too and gambling.

Brandy Schantz (32:39.462)
Mm-hmm.

Right. Yes. But yeah, and it's you know, it's interesting those also things associated with trauma.

Fred Schiffer (32:45.684)
and extend it to...

Yeah, and to plug my book again, I have, it's all about this and how there are narrative fiction descriptions of therapy sessions and talks about the research and how to help yourself with it.

Brandy Schantz (32:53.308)
Hmm.

Great.

Brandy Schantz (33:08.708)
Yeah, and you know, I think it's phenomenal. You know, and I encourage everybody, it is, you you can get it tomorrow through amazon.com. the long title being Goodbye, Anxiety, Depression, Addiction, and PTSD. I thought the top was cute. It's just all crossed out. So my brain immediately said dual brain psychology because that came across so positive and crossed out all that crap I keep trying to get rid of, which is difficult and...

Fred Schiffer (33:33.997)
Ha ha.

Brandy Schantz (33:37.67)
You know, just think it's very, whether you're dealing with a, Fentanyl addiction, a family member dealing with it or something else. Everybody who is dealing with chronic illness, we have a certain level of trauma and starting this podcast, going through everything I did, it's given me a very different perspective and a set of empathy, you know, this empathy that I might not have had before, because I know people get to various places because they got there through Trump.

You know, and you go through so much and you start to lose trust in medical professionals because you're still sick. You're starting to feel like you can't live without certain things. So go to the next doctor like, what's the next med I need? I think I feel something else again. It's all coming back. And next thing you know, you've got 14 prescriptions and you know, you feel like you can't live your life without this.

Fred Schiffer (34:14.679)
And also if you can...

Brandy Schantz (34:32.078)
And I see over and over and over again in the chronic illness community where we have our own types of addictions, but we just don't put that down on paper. You're an addict. say you're chronically ill and you have your bag, drugs. There's even cute little funny bags out there. You can order that, you know, your bag of drugs, but you, have to really ask yourself, what am I doing here? Am I dealing, am I not dealing with trauma in a positive way?

Fred Schiffer (34:45.198)
you

Fred Schiffer (34:57.198)
Yeah. And I prescribe very few drugs because I feel that most of them don't work. I have to say that this work is very effective, that people get better. And I think just even using it with one...

Brandy Schantz (35:00.826)
Yes.

Brandy Schantz (35:05.606)
Right.

Brandy Schantz (35:13.424)
Mm-hmm.

Fred Schiffer (35:20.682)
you know, from the book or blocking your eyes, you know, that if you can get the concept that there is a person inside who's hurting. And it's sort of like the inner child, but I don't like the term inner child because it's been, you know, bantered around and trivialized. But there actually is an inner child in there who knows that the trauma is going to recur.

Brandy Schantz (35:31.505)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (35:40.539)
Right.

Fred Schiffer (35:50.158)
and it often repeats the trauma to have a sense of control. But I think it's really helpful to have this concept of two minds. And rather than I'm suffering from trauma, there's a part of me that's suffering from trauma, and there's a part of me that's healthy.

Brandy Schantz (35:50.256)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (35:56.496)
Yes.

Brandy Schantz (36:06.01)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (36:18.16)
Mm-hmm.

Fred Schiffer (36:19.134)
And I think it's a better perspective and a more realistic perspective.

Brandy Schantz (36:21.99)
That is great perspective. Yes, because it's so easy to just see the trauma in ourselves to see the hurt, to see the brokenness. I am a broken person. I've said that a million times. feel like over the last five years, I'm a broken person. But there is a healthy side to me. You just have to work towards that healthy side and understand that the broken side is there. And I get better each and every day.

Fred Schiffer (36:29.806)
Mm-hmm.

Fred Schiffer (36:37.314)
Yeah, absolutely. I'm talking to her.

Brandy Schantz (36:48.284)
So thinking of it that way I think is so important I still remember right after they finally diagnosed me with drug-induced lupus every new drug They put me on you know If I go out for a run or try to do something and everything started hurting I'd call my doctor it's happening again It's a drug-induced lupus and if you google drug-induced lupus in your drug, you know now everybody's afraid to take medication There's a decent chance that your your medications associated with it, but I thought every single med I took I was like, here it is. It's happening. I know it is I know it is I you know, but I just could not get

Fred Schiffer (37:15.213)
No.

Brandy Schantz (37:17.404)
through the trauma of it. But obviously there was a side of me that was doing better because I was still living life. I was still picking myself up and going outside. So I like that perspective. And I'm really excited to hear about the infrared study when it's completed and the FDA approval.

Fred Schiffer (37:35.5)
Now we have a completed study that's published where we treated. No, the fentanyl study, my site, we have two sites where we're doing it. And at the end of this month, my site will be completed and McLean Hospital is doing another site and they'll finish probably in October.

Brandy Schantz (37:42.02)
Okay, that one's already the fentanyl studies already completed.

Brandy Schantz (37:51.494)
Okay.

Brandy Schantz (37:59.653)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (38:03.48)
Okay.

Fred Schiffer (38:03.662)
And we have a phase one study where we treated 40 subjects, half of whom got sham and half active. it was a we measured, it was focused on cravings and it was heroin, not fentanyl. It was before fentanyl. It was, I think we finished it in 2021.

Brandy Schantz (38:26.212)
Okay.

Brandy Schantz (38:31.067)
Mm-hmm.

Fred Schiffer (38:32.558)
and there was a huge difference between the active treatment and the sham treatment for craving and also for those who were using it was a gigantic difference that they were either most had come off of the heroin who got the active treatment and the sham treatment didn't.

Brandy Schantz (38:54.534)
Mm-hmm.

Fred Schiffer (39:02.958)
So, and that study is published.

Brandy Schantz (39:03.043)
interesting.

in 2021.

Fred Schiffer (39:09.87)
And I have a website, it's called dualbrainpsychology.com. And there are papers that have links to them. So this is a study that we published in, it was either 2021 or 2022.

Brandy Schantz (39:10.492)
I'll take a look for that.

Brandy Schantz (39:18.33)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (39:34.042)
And I'll have your website in the show notes as well so everybody can go there because it's fascinating work. And there's just so much more we have to learn about the brain and how it affects us and how it relates to your body.

Fred Schiffer (39:47.31)
And very few people think about the hemispheres. In other words, I think I'm the only researcher who actively considers that the hemisphere is the most important brain area. Everybody's looking at the amygdala and the hippocampus, and there are actually two amygdalae. There's one in the left brain and one in the right brain. And that's true for all of these parts of the brain.

Brandy Schantz (39:51.568)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (40:03.258)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Brandy Schantz (40:10.981)
Mm-hmm.

Fred Schiffer (40:15.758)
But I think when you put them all together in a hemisphere, you put half the brain to sleep. Neurosurgeons do that before surgery as a test. The person can communicate.

Brandy Schantz (40:39.184)
Right.

Fred Schiffer (40:44.686)
when half the brain is asleep.

Brandy Schantz (40:47.428)
Interesting. Huh.

That says something. Well, you know, I love the studies. I'm looking forward to your next book to tell me more about that because now I want to know about that. It's just so fascinating. And I think that for many of us, you know, we'll keep learning more about why we experience pain and trauma the way we do, the more that we understand our minds and how to treat it.

Fred Schiffer (41:06.284)
It's in the book.

Brandy Schantz (41:21.148)
You know, that's really fascinating to learn about. So I'm excited. I'll be keeping a lookout for the infrared at the FDA. Hopefully it's not caught in some foregone department. It's just, it's off somewhere in a portal. We have no idea, but I'll keep looking for it. And if they got rid of the department, you know.

Fred Schiffer (41:35.82)
Yeah, we don't know where the government has gone. Yeah. Well, we know where it's gone, but we don't know what's left. Yeah.

Brandy Schantz (41:49.552)
Maybe we can put together a proposal to see if we can't come in and take over and finish that stuff up or something. gotta finish this. Somebody has to do this work. We need help.

Fred Schiffer (41:57.678)
Well, we're going to finish the study. And even if we stopped at this point, we'd have enough data. we have to get FDA approval to bring it to market because it's a medical device.

Brandy Schantz (42:15.068)
Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for coming on. This has been a great conversation. And everybody, don't forget to order your new book, Goodbye Anxiety, Depression, Addiction, and PTSD, Dual Brain Psychology, available on amazon.com. So thank you for being here. Dr. Frederick Schiffers, it a great conversation.

Fred Schiffer (42:37.666)
Thank you. Thanks so much. Thanks.