Navigating Life After Cancer: Amy McClelland's Story

In this conversation, Brandy Schantz speaks with Amy McClelland, a breast cancer survivor and tech leader, about her journey navigating the job market after her diagnosis. They discuss the challenges faced by individuals with chronic illnesses, the importance of sharing experiences, and the unique strengths that chronically ill employees bring to the workforce. Amy shares her insights on resilience, the impact of social media, and the difficulties of disclosing health issues in job applications. The conversation emphasizes the need for compassion and understanding in the workplace, particularly for those who have faced significant health challenges. In this conversation, Amy McClelland and Brandy Schantz discuss the challenges faced by individuals with disabilities in the job market, particularly in the tech industry. They explore the nuances of discrimination, the impact of disclosing a disability, and the importance of education and awareness in fostering a more inclusive workplace. The discussion highlights the need for genuine diversity and inclusion efforts in companies, as well as the empowerment that comes from sharing personal experiences.

Transcript

Brandy Schantz (00:01.55)
Hi, I'm Brandy Schantz and you're listening to Living Chronic. Today I'm here with Amy McClellan. She is a breast cancer survivor and a tech leader who has some very interesting perspective and a lot of great insight into what it's like to suddenly become chronically ill, survive a difficult illness, and then come out on the other side thriving. So welcome, Amy.

Amy McClelland (00:25.816)
Thank you so much for having me.

Brandy Schantz (00:28.162)
So I got to know you first through your article. You were featured in an article in Fortune magazine. And, you know, was a really great article. Talked about this tech leader who was diagnosed with breast cancer and fought hard, survived, and then found yourself in a job market that just wasn't, ready to embrace you despite how successful you were prior to your breast cancer diagnosis.

What did that feel like to go from being so successful in not just your business and your career, but also in beating cancer and then find yourself out in the dark?

Amy McClelland (01:08.928)
it's such a big thing. And I think I'm still trying to understand how I feel about it, to be honest with you. I'm still in treatment. so while treatment's going well, I'm sort of straddling the worlds. I'm straddling the world of cancer treatment, but also stepping back into the working world and putting myself forward as that professional version of me, which I haven't been for about a year or so. I've just been in the cancer world. And so

Brandy Schantz (01:16.218)
Mm-hmm.

Amy McClelland (01:38.37)
to be stepping back into the working world has been so strange. And I think ultimately quite shocking only because I wasn't expecting it to be so difficult. And granted, it doesn't have everything to do with the cancer. I think the tech industry, the industry that I'm in is in a bit of a recession. So there's not a lot of jobs around and there's a lot of talented people looking for work. So there's that layer of competition here in the UK.

Brandy Schantz (01:59.674)
Thank

Amy McClelland (02:07.822)
But also in Australia where I'm from. So think it's a bit of a universal challenge at the moment for people, but certainly jumping back in off the back of doing cancer treatment takes a very unique and high level of perseverance and energy, which I often am lacking. So it's a big, big push.

Brandy Schantz (02:13.06)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (02:28.922)
Right?

Absolutely. Well, and that's pretty consistent for everybody dealing with a chronic illness, trying to, you know, battle the health portion of things, but get back into life. you know, I, of course we all talk about the spoons, we're all spoonies, and you put so many spoons sometimes into your treatment or coming back home and spending your quality time with family. And you have to reserve a certain number of those spoons for the workforce. And it can be a very

Difficult balance so you're definitely not alone in that respect jumping back into the job market but I think what I found most interesting about that article is You're one of millions. There are so many especially women whether they be very young Kind of in the middle of their career like yourself Millennials or people my age and generation X

You take that break to take care of your health and it seems as if the job market has completely left you behind.

Amy McClelland (03:34.092)
Absolutely, absolutely. It feels, I often describe it as just feeling like I'm running at a brick wall and I'm looking up at this tall wall and everybody else on the other side is in the working world and I used to be there, I used to be in it and I'm now on the outside and the barriers to entry, there are so many and it's been a real learning experience for me in terms of how I market myself.

Brandy Schantz (03:41.187)
Yeah.

Brandy Schantz (03:53.338)
Thank

Amy McClelland (04:03.39)
as an unemployed person, because I've received advice from, you know, various recruiters and, also just from my observations of how people have perceived me that coming across as unemployed, just doesn't work in your favor. And so there's that sort of advantage of when you're looking for work, being in work is, the advantage. So there's a lot of rebranding that I've had to do for myself. And I think with that, that fortune article,

Brandy Schantz (04:26.926)
Mm-hmm.

Amy McClelland (04:32.6)
Thankfully, it was so helpful in that it really positioned me in this professional light. And Oriana, the journalist who contacted me to do that article just did an amazing job. And she actually had done that for somebody previously, I think, who was out on maternity leave and there were some other health issues there. And that person also got a bit more opportunity because Oriana had written about her. And so she was kind of in this

in this sort of habit of finding people to write about that really needed that, you know, entry into the market. And it's brought me connections like this one. So I'm here talking to you today. It's also brought me a lot of leads with the job hunt. They haven't turned into gainful employment just yet. I'm still looking, but hopefully, hopefully soon I'll be able to convert one of those into an actual paying job.

Brandy Schantz (05:07.802)
All

Brandy Schantz (05:29.43)
And, you know, of course, first and foremost, the priority is you. And I think we all forget that so often. We forget that the priority needs to be us. And you're looking for an opportunity to jump back into the job market and you need to focus on that. But have you thought about how much your struggle represents the struggle of so many people, especially women around the world who are trying to get back into

the job market and they aren't branded as tech leader breast cancer survivor. They're branded as unemployed out of job market for X number of years.

Amy McClelland (06:11.746)
I have thought about this and I've thought about it because I've been contacted by a lot of these women and a lot of women have come to me and said, my gosh, I wish I could have said all of this. I wish I could say what you're saying about my own experience. And that's really interesting. I think what I'm realizing is that it's inherently a part of me to speak about my experience and

Brandy Schantz (06:17.69)
Mm-hmm.

Amy McClelland (06:39.96)
kind of take control of the situation in that way. But certainly it's been a positive reaction to have people approach me and say that it's helped them. And I guess something that I haven't really spoken about across my professional platforms is a TikTok that I run. So I was growing my TikTok following while I was doing chemotherapy. And that really amassed

Brandy Schantz (06:42.234)
Thank

Amy McClelland (07:07.886)
I mean, a decent following and more than I was expecting it to. It's only, it's about under 10,000. So it's, you know, it's not huge, but that was a really positive way of almost like video journaling my chemotherapy experience, but also was letting other women come to that space and be really vocal about, yeah, I had that symptom. Oh my gosh, I'm on that treatment too. And what did you do when it came to surgery time? And so there were all of these kinds of conversations that began happening.

on TikTok first. And I think I just learned that me being vocal was a positive thing. And so when the Fortune article opportunity came around, I thought, I've already been doing this. I've already been talking about myself and I've already seen how that helps represent other women in this situation. So it felt natural to me to speak on it in the way that it feels natural for me to connect with you and speak on it today. So yeah, I'm pleased with

the positive effect it's had in how it maybe empowers other people to feel like they can talk about it more.

Brandy Schantz (08:16.41)
I think it's so important. you know, like you found myself suddenly chronically ill for me, it was the second time, uh, which was especially difficult, but the only way I could figure out how to get to the other end of it was talking. And that's why I started the podcast because I needed some outlet to kind of get rid of my pain, try to express my anger, express my, um, sense of loss, my grief.

And you do reach out and you find yourself talking to people and you realize, wow, there's so much we all have in common, matter where you came from. I'm in the Washington DC metro area. I used to be an army officer. I have so many similarities to people who have been living in middle America with, in small towns, wife, mother, slower pace of life.

We have similarities with people like you living in London, high power career suddenly taken down with an illness. And I like to point out to people that if you put together each one of these interviews, you realize it doesn't really matter if you live in London or Germany or small town America. We all have many of the exact same issues.

So there's a lot to be solved and it's not on a micro level. It's a global level. How do we fix this so that we feel like we're supported when we're going through something like this? And of course that's the power of social media. We always hear about the negativity. I keep talking about that. We always hear about the negativity of social media. But there's also so much positive that comes out of this.

Amy McClelland (09:49.486)
100%.

Amy McClelland (10:03.586)
Yes, yeah, absolutely. And I think like if I can pull out silver linings for myself, it's how confident I am in my abilities because I've had this door shut in my face. so I've had to get so vocal and prove it, you know, and do it from this place of really having nothing, you know, with me in the professional sense. I've got no job at the moment.

Brandy Schantz (10:18.65)
Mm-hmm.

Amy McClelland (10:31.158)
I have to represent what I've done in my career to date. And so this, it requires this level of self belief and real perseverance to just stand up in front of people. And, know, very often when I'm interviewing a final stage interview in the tech industry is a panel sort of interview and you're presenting a task to them in a boardroom. And so it's quite a daunting situation to be in, particularly when you're really fatigued.

You're not sure how your stomach's going to kind of go on any given day. You know, there's all these other things going on in your body and you have to kind of regulate yourself and put yourself forward in this. I've been describing it as a glossy version of yourself and it takes so much concentration and energy and time to perfect that. And I made a post yesterday on my LinkedIn about

Brandy Schantz (11:04.238)
Yes.

Brandy Schantz (11:18.052)
Mm-hmm.

Amy McClelland (11:29.932)
that process about that taking practice and you are not going to be this version of yourself that you want to be, you know, a month after you finish chemotherapy or a couple of months after surgery, you're just not. It's taken me months. I've been job hunting for about six months now and it's taken a long time. But the silver lining, as I said, is that that that I guess confidence in myself and it's taken time to build.

Brandy Schantz (11:39.95)
Right?

Brandy Schantz (11:55.822)
Mm-hmm.

Amy McClelland (11:57.518)
But I do see that as a silver lining because I think going through something like cancer and chemotherapy really reinforced what I wanted. And I know well and truly that I am a career girly and I just want to be back in so badly that I think the next company that I join and the work that I do going forward is going to be the best work of my life.

Brandy Schantz (12:09.09)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (12:13.069)
Yes.

Amy McClelland (12:25.506)
because I'm so laser focused on what I want now in a way that I could never have been before this.

Brandy Schantz (12:32.814)
I love that you said that because I always argue that disabled, chronically ill people are the best employees. We're actually the employee you are looking for. We have perseverance. We have resilience. We've been broken down in ways that I can never describe to a person who's completely healthy. We have had our self-esteem challenged. We've had our physical being challenged. We've been challenged in ways we never dreamed of.

For many of us, know, I like yourself. I was successful. I had a great career. I was upward, upward. And then suddenly I found myself hitting a wall just like you. And I was not the star student anymore. I wasn't the one everybody was trying to get. Nobody was trying to poach me any longer. I remember the good old days when people were trying to poach me. That was gone. And as much as it made me want to quit, it ended up creating that tough exterior.

that you really need to be that kind of resilient, hard, flexible, determined employee that every company says they want. So why are they not seeing that in us? Because that is who we are. So I love, you know you're going to be that great employee after this particular experience.

Amy McClelland (13:44.469)
Exactly.

Brandy Schantz (13:59.63)
So what would you say to somebody who is going through it right now and feeling that, that, you know, sense of defeat, like you've just been broken down so hard. How do I get up again?

Amy McClelland (14:13.23)
Hmm, that's a really good question because I don't think I've mastered the art of getting up again. I think I continue to get up, but I often find myself down in that dark place. And when I was beginning my journey with the job hunt, I was letting rejections just knock me over. And I say letting, I mean, it really just did knock me over. I didn't have the energy, the mental, I guess, stamina.

Brandy Schantz (14:33.475)
Yes.

Amy McClelland (14:41.442)
to just keep pushing at that point. And over time, that got better. Over time, I got a bit stronger mentally. But what I will say to anyone who's feeling like they're in that place is to allow it to happen. And you will get stronger. You will get more resilient mentally. You do have to just keep going. And that's a really, you know, it's easier said than done. Believe me, I know I'm doing it right now. But I would say with everything,

Brandy Schantz (14:55.545)
Mm.

Brandy Schantz (15:06.606)
Mm-hmm.

Amy McClelland (15:10.914)
you know, even during cancer treatment, they will just tell you, listen to yourself, listen to your body, give yourself a break, use your compassionate voice with yourself, because that's the only thing you can do. You need to be able to get your energy back. You need to be able to process your emotions. And with cancer treatment, very often you're also on some hormone treatment, which means you're very unregulated in terms of just your emotions.

Brandy Schantz (15:38.318)
Yes.

Amy McClelland (15:40.774)
For me right now, I'm in a induced menopause. I'm 32 years old. And so I have this sort of imbalance that affects my mood every single day. And so it's been a real exercise for me in bringing into my head this compassionate voice, allowing myself the rest. And I don't always do it. My husband is really onto me about this as well, making sure that I slow down. Because I'm also just somebody who wants to get things done.

Brandy Schantz (16:05.37)
Mm hmm. Yes.

Amy McClelland (16:10.41)
So I think, yeah, the advice is just listen to your body. Have your moment. Have your moment where you're in the dark place. Get in the bath. Just make yourself feel nice. And then you'll find that the energy comes back to you, but you do have to wait for it to come back to you. You can't just, it won't just happen on its own. You've got to let yourself rest.

Brandy Schantz (16:32.182)
That's great advice. That's great advice. I have never been able to put it that well because I myself have been in the same situations where I'm broken down. I get that rejection. I'm trying to get back up again and you know, various things may happen. My health may take a turn for the worst. I'm having a really bad day and I let that compound because I also just, you know, tried to get back into a position I really loved once before and was unable to do that.

Now my health is bad and it's easy to spiral. And I always am a little scared to let myself just be there in that moment. But I have noticed the times where I just say, you know what, I'm going to have a breakdown. Everybody please leave me alone. I'm not, can't do it anymore. And I just take a couple of days to have my breakdown and sleep and lay on the couch and binge my Real Housewives shows and just be. And then I do end up getting back up again.

So I think that was just outstanding advice on figuring out how do I get up again. Let yourself rest. Let yourself have that moment.

Amy McClelland (17:33.154)
That's good.

Amy McClelland (17:37.526)
Yeah. And that, that in itself, that in itself takes practice. You know, we're talking about like being in an interview room and practicing how we look. really the practice also makes perfect in terms of how you look after yourself and knowing yourself and knowing what you need when you're in that dark place. And, that's a moving target. think particularly when you're going through cancer treatment.

Brandy Schantz (17:42.926)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (18:00.014)
Yes.

Amy McClelland (18:01.592)
there is a new wave of treatment every few months that just takes you down and you're kind of learning how to adjust to that in terms of how your body reacts to certain things, in terms of how you emotionally react to what you're being told. Every journey is different and it takes so much, I guess, adjustment and I guess the ability to be agile and embrace the new kind of waves of

Brandy Schantz (18:06.584)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (18:24.462)
Mm-hmm.

Amy McClelland (18:31.278)
of treatment that are coming your way. So, I mean, it takes so much and it kind of comes back to what you were saying before about how we are the best type of employee. We have this ability to hear something being told to us, okay, now we're gonna give you this type of chemo and it's gonna, you know, make your fingernails fall off or something horrible like that. And we go, okay, well, I have to do it. I just, I've got no time. I have to do it and no one else is gonna do it. And the stakes are really high.

Brandy Schantz (18:41.049)
Yes.

Brandy Schantz (18:51.352)
Yes.

Amy McClelland (19:00.738)
Here we go. I mean, why aren't we the best people when you can think about the, you know, some of the horrors that we have to go through and that we have to just be okay with and survive through and practice dealing with well.

Brandy Schantz (19:10.158)
Yes.

Brandy Schantz (19:16.31)
And when you put that in context of corporate America, corporate global corporations, tech UK, doesn't matter where you're at. When there's a change, everybody who's in a leadership position, HR, we know that that change is gonna be difficult. We know that people aren't going to see the change and say, okay, we're taking it and then just roll with it and everything comes off smoothly the next day. We have different measures we put in place.

to enable change to happen more smoothly than it will actually happen. We have an entire profession completely focused on change management. HR is heavily focused. We're doing various polls. We're talking to employees. We're getting feedback. We're implementing new programs slowly so that people can adjust. All of these things, and nobody adjusts quickly.

So people who maybe they've never had a break in their resume, they've been working consistently, upward trajectory for 15, 20 years. I guarantee you each one of those people have had multiple moments in that resume where change happened and they didn't like it and they were very slow to adapt to it and they were very slow to figure out how to make their job work within that change. Us on the other hand, like you said, we don't get a choice. There is no choice.

There's no HR in our body that says, hold on. We'll do this slowly. We'll start with a little bit of that new chemo treatment and then we'll slowly ramp up until you start to feel more comfortable with it. No, the doctor says you're in Monday morning. This is your treatment. It's go time. So you do it and you adjust as you go. And I always say I'm very, my number one talent right now is changing the wheels on a moving vehicle. That's a talent.

And I do it every time the wheel gets on. I have not lost a wheel yet. Still have not. So that's, that's the message really, isn't it? Look what we can do that you spend and every company has that number somewhere on the amount they spend on a change, change management, the HR strategies, the consulting team you bring in, the training and development that's required to get people up to speed. How much money is in this? And we can't get rid of all of that. Of course.

Amy McClelland (21:13.102)
100 %

Brandy Schantz (21:42.788)
But imagine if you're hired instead of weeding out that resume that has a one year or two year gap. What if you pulled that resume and asked yourself, why was this person out of the workforce for this period of time? What if we just, you know, mean, here laws are different in every country here in the United States, you you're not required to disclose your illness. It's illegal for a company to ask you about it.

and often people are discriminated against. They're not supposed to. They ask you in your application process, do you have a disability or have you had one in the past? And most people check no because they know that as soon as you check yes, the company weeds you right out. But what if the companies instead took that and saw that disability yes and said opportunity?

Amy McClelland (22:30.624)
I know. Yeah. And it's, it's, it's honestly something I don't know how to approach yet in terms of that ticking of the box. And it's similar here in the UK. So when you get a cancer diagnosis, if you have currently, you know, you're being treated for cancer or you've had cancer in the past, it becomes a classed as a disability in the UK. And so you are also asked a very similar question in job applications of, you know, do you currently or have you had a disability?

Brandy Schantz (22:39.331)
No.

Brandy Schantz (22:52.868)
Mm-hmm.

Amy McClelland (23:00.63)
And I have been, I think ticking, I prefer not to say that's an option, usually yes, no, or prefer not to say. And it's because I'm worried about that. And a question that I was asked actually when interviewing for Fortune magazine, it was about, you know, how confident are you in telling a company this? Because we have these companies who talk about being inclusive and,

Brandy Schantz (23:06.554)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (23:12.708)
Yes.

Amy McClelland (23:26.872)
really sort of celebrating that, but when push comes to shove, if you disclose it, you do not know for sure that that is going to be embraced by the company. And it does not matter how outwardly vocal the brand might be about that inclusivity. You do not know. Cause I have had conversations that have been going very, very well. You know, them telling me, you're the best person we've spoken to so far. Your experience in this is amazing.

Brandy Schantz (23:52.986)
Mm-hmm.

Amy McClelland (23:55.734)
And then I've disclosed it and all of a sudden the door is shut and they'll just come back and say something like, we've just feel that other candidates are better suited. And it, and because they don't have to tell you, they don't have to say, it's because you told us that you had cancer because of course that would be discrimination. would be, yeah, exactly. So they can just say whatever they want. And unfortunately that has been my experience. I'm not going to say that, you know,

Brandy Schantz (24:00.57)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (24:11.032)
Well, they don't want to. Yes. Now it's illegal.

Amy McClelland (24:24.064)
All of them were like that. Certainly there was feedback that for some of them where I had been rejected for the role that was useful to me that, you were just a little bit lacking in this knowledge compared to another candidate. That stuff I really appreciate because that is going to help me. But when they just say other candidates are better suited and that's what has immediately followed me disclosing my disability, that's when I start to go, okay, maybe, maybe I shouldn't be telling them this.

Brandy Schantz (24:37.924)
Yes.

Brandy Schantz (24:47.674)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (24:52.974)
We have the same problems here and I've been very open, but what else am I going to do? I've been disabled twice over. This crap hit me twice in a very hard way. you know, embrace it, move forward. There's no other way I feel for me. Somebody could have a different opinion. But I have been, and I also am very transparent because I believe in what I'm doing. I believe that hiring disabled is important. I believe that companies are making a mistake.

when they say, know what, we're going to move on with somebody else because you are disabled. And it's difficult. Of course, we could, I could probably sit here with you for three, four hours, giving solid examples of why you would be a great fit for many of these positions. The entire, well, the entire tech world is always in change. Everything changes quickly in tech. Nothing settles. We don't get one new piece of technology and it stays the same for 20 years. I mean, I have things that I bought.

a year ago that are now completely, you know, spent a lot of money on it now, you know, not important, irrelevant. So they need that kind of quick change. So I could sit here and give examples all day long of why hiring chronically ill and disabled persons is really smart for tech. But the reality of the situation is all of us still have to deal with that level of discrimination and people being afraid to hire the sick person. what if they

Amy McClelland (25:58.926)
Yeah.

Brandy Schantz (26:22.436)
have a recurrence of their illness. They say they're in remission, but now we've got to spend money on short-term disability. I mean, it happened to me twice. I like to think that I've done my time, but I won't have to go through this again. But I know what they're thinking on the other side. And it's difficult to change that culture. It's really difficult to change that culture.

Amy McClelland (26:41.176)
Yes.

Yeah.

It's the question of they know what your condition is and then they look at you and they go, so how are you feeling? And it's in that moment that you know that they're thinking differently about you because of what they know about you. fascinatingly, I have been discriminated against in ways that really shocked me in the sense that people were thinking that they were doing something nice.

Brandy Schantz (26:55.577)
Yep.

Amy McClelland (27:16.878)
So discrimination has appeared to me, not in the sort of negative way that you imagine. You you sort of think discrimination is this, oh, she can't be good at the job because, you know, she's got cancer. But actually, it's so much more often comes through as, oh, we would just worry, you know, that you wouldn't be able to handle it. And it comes from this place of them feeling that actually they're doing something to help you.

Brandy Schantz (27:16.889)
Yes.

Brandy Schantz (27:38.424)
Yes. Yes.

Yes.

Amy McClelland (27:45.218)
when an actual fact they're putting you in a box and they're saying, we're gonna wrap you up in cotton wool because we just really hope that you're okay. And that I find that infuriating and yeah, yeah. And so you get, you see that question and you see, you know, the look on their face when they ask it and then you have to be the one to go, yeah, I'm actually doing great. I'm actually doing great. And I think also that's where like I found doing the Fortune article was,

Brandy Schantz (27:45.732)
Yes.

Brandy Schantz (27:56.152)
I do too.

Brandy Schantz (28:08.154)
actually get it. I'm here.

Amy McClelland (28:14.21)
was really helpful and actually even prior to that posting on LinkedIn and kind of going semi-viral for just going out to the world and saying, hey, this has been my experience guys. This is crazy out here. Have you, have you seen what's happening? Like, you know, you guys know me, I'm great at what I do. So I mean, look, look, I'm yelling about it. And so people were like, my God, yeah, this is what the hell, Amy, what's going on? And so it just.

I think it was just me getting, I was just getting to my boiling point with, with the way that this was working and in conversation with companies, I was sitting in my kitchen, I got my phone out. I was in that dark place that we were talking about before. And I just went, you know what? I'm just going to say it because I was so in my head about when do I say it? Do I say it at all? Do I tick the box? Do I don't tick the box? I'm just going to put it out there so that I stopped debating with myself.

Brandy Schantz (28:56.858)
Mm-hmm.

Amy McClelland (29:11.788)
and so that I can take full charge of the information that's out there. And people want to know more, they can ask me, but I'm going to talk about it in a way that empowers me. It feels energetic. It feels in control. And I have full command of myself in the professional space because I've taken that step. And look, not everyone may feel comfortable being as vocal as I have been, but that just gives you a sense of

Brandy Schantz (29:16.954)
Mm-hmm.

Amy McClelland (29:41.183)
What kind of pushed me out into the open was just that frustration of those types of comments and that sort of positive bias and discrimination that was happening.

Brandy Schantz (29:45.763)
Yes.

Brandy Schantz (29:53.358)
Well, and to be clear, is discrimination. And that's what's so frustrating because when you see somebody who very clearly is just overtly discriminating against you, it makes you angry, but they also were very forward and upfront with what they were doing. There is something infuriating when they dress it up, put lipstick on it, make it look cute. It's still discrimination. I've heard more than once, but are you taking care of yourself?

I feel like you're probably too hard on yourself and pushing yourself too much. Am I? Did you say the same thing to the young man who's currently putting in over a hundred hours a week trying to make it to the C-suite? Did you ask him if he's okay? Did you ask him if he's taking care of himself? Because we've had a lot of people in articles recently dying because they were working over a hundred hours a week. I'm still alive.

Amy McClelland (30:30.093)
Hmm.

Amy McClelland (30:39.298)
Yeah.

Amy McClelland (30:49.102)
I mean, I mean, yeah, you know, is 23 year old Ethan who's trying to get into C-suite, is he taking his vitamins? Like, are we checking on him? Yeah, I 100 % this resonates. my gosh. Yeah. And look, I mean, it's like what we were saying with the best place people. We've had to go through so much taking care of ourselves to even get to this point where we can feel strong enough.

Brandy Schantz (30:57.71)
Yeah. What's his medical panel?

Amy McClelland (31:17.474)
to be back in the working world. And yeah, look, we had to go through some shit, excuse my language, but we did. And it was horrible, but look at us now. And I find that just so fascinating because really I think that question often comes from somebody who has not experienced it or doesn't know anyone who has. And so it...

Brandy Schantz (31:37.55)
Yes.

Amy McClelland (31:38.528)
It's this, think, and you can speak to, I guess, your own experiences with the specificity of your diagnosis, but particularly with cancer for me, I think my observation is that everyone looks at cancer like this universally horrific thing. And it is, but they also look at it like, well, you must be dying. And it's this big, big, bad thing. I have received curative treatment for cancer.

Brandy Schantz (31:57.71)
Yes.

Brandy Schantz (32:01.742)
Yes.

Amy McClelland (32:07.884)
And my oncologist has even resisted telling me that I'm in remission because she really only uses that term for people who are highly likely to have a resurgence or a recurrence of the cancer coming back. She's so confident in my ability to just go back out into the working world and live my life that she's calling it curative. So I'm in the best place scenario anyone could be while also having had cancer. And so it's, yeah, it's,

Brandy Schantz (32:18.575)
Right?

Brandy Schantz (32:33.338)
Yes.

Amy McClelland (32:37.678)
You know, I'm taking all my vitamins. I'm good. I'm okay. Thanks for asking.

Brandy Schantz (32:43.268)
Exactly, exactly. I think it feeds into a larger discussion. Certainly here in the United States, used to, believe it or not, I used to work for the British Army some years ago. So I have some familiarity with the Brits as well. So we often, our issues seem to be very similar. It's interesting how we clearly are the former British colonies because we often have the same things happening at once. But there is this big,

Amy McClelland (33:07.566)
Yeah.

Brandy Schantz (33:12.536)
discussion around diversity right now and DEI and what is it? And a lot of people are angry. Some people are standing up, you know, for it in every way. But I think if you really listen to all the conversations and you try to hear what they're really saying, so much of what everybody's saying is the same because what we know is that many of these companies put out great DEI statements. We support diversity. have a

you know, big statement on their website, maybe they do a diversity day at work, or they do all of these surface level things that are not actually promoting diversity, it's not hiring diversity, it's not bringing diverse minds into the workplace. And people know that. And I think that's a lot of what drives some of the pushback. It's not that we're against diversity, because when you get in a room and you have somebody like yourself,

who has had these unique life experiences and had to take that break from the workforce and experience life in a different way and challenge yourself and overcome. And then you have somebody else in the room who comes maybe from a completely different culture. They've, you know, they're working at your company in London and they came in from California, United States of America. They're gonna have a very different perspective and a different way of looking at problem sets as you.

And when you keep bringing in those different minds and you keep finding measurable quantitative ways to bring in people who may not have already had that opportunity, that's real diversity. And I don't think many people would have a problem with that if it was being executed in a way that was very helpful and very productive. But the fact that you and I are sitting here talking about this shows that these companies were giving a lot of lip service to diversity, but they're not hiring diversity.

Because if they were, disabled people around the world would not have so much difficulty getting a job.

Amy McClelland (35:11.887)
Yeah, and that's, that's, think, what is shocking to me because, I've, you know, like the debate, the internal debate in my head about do I even define myself as a person with a disability? I think that I've had a lot of denial in that space as well. I didn't want to call myself a disabled person because even after doing my cancer treatment, I was like, well, look, I'm upwardly mobile. I can get from A to B. you know, look at all the things I can do. I'm not disabled.

Brandy Schantz (35:22.424)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (35:27.789)
Yes.

Amy McClelland (35:40.962)
But actually it's called a disability because what it means is that I need reasonable adjustments so that I can get to an appointment. It just means, Amy might need to go and get an injection every four weeks and that might need to happen at 10 a.m. on a Thursday and she might not be able to come into the office until later. That's why it's labeled as a disability because we need those adjustments in the workplace.

Brandy Schantz (35:55.599)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (36:04.058)
Mm-hmm.

Amy McClelland (36:06.53)
But really it's the same exact or even less actually time investment than leaving work early to go pick up your kids from school. So it's like this balance and this perception of what we need in the workday far outstrips what we actually do need. And people who are sort of living a more traditional life in the sense that they don't have a disability and that they've got kids that they know they need to go up and go and pick up from school. I mean that

Brandy Schantz (36:13.645)
Exactly.

Amy McClelland (36:34.732)
that is looked on as, that's normal, that's fine. They can do that, no worries. It's very different.

Brandy Schantz (36:37.614)
Yes. absolutely. It really is. you know, I don't have children. My husband and I never had children. We just decided it wasn't for us. But also the number of hours both of us have worked over to compensate for people picking up their children or taking the holidays for so they could be with the children or, you know, what it would fill in the blank with the children.

Amy McClelland (36:56.098)
Yeah.

Brandy Schantz (37:05.748)
And we've never, you know, we've always been the type, we take our vacations when all the kids go back to school so that we can, you know, resort happily without children running around and, you know, get that nice discount on the flight and the hotel. So we've been fine with it, but when you put it in that context and think how much, we're perfectly okay in the workforce with compensating for children and, you know.

Like I said, we've never had a problem with it. That's our choices and we love them because when we go on vacation, there are no children and that's lovely. But why aren't we so comfortable with Amy going to get her injection or Brandy going to get her infusion? It's going to take three hours and she'll be back in the office when she's done.

Amy McClelland (37:39.544)
Yeah. Yeah.

Amy McClelland (37:54.018)
Right. It's that lack of education. And it kind of goes back to what I was saying before about like looking at this diagnosis, like a death sentence, or just really not understanding the nuance within a diagnosis. So when I got diagnosed, I was stage two, grade two, invasive ductal carcinoma, HER2 positive. Like that's the diagnosis. There's so much in it because there are so many different types.

Brandy Schantz (37:56.814)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (38:09.594)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (38:20.974)
Mm-hmm.

Amy McClelland (38:22.984)
breast cancer and on top of that there are so many different types of chemotherapy and options and I think in the end I probably had like four different types of chemotherapy and the nurse explained it really well you know she just gave me a sort of visual which was like think of it like a layer cake some people need you know blueberries and cream and strawberries and other people can only have chocolate and caramel and because blueberries are gonna make their liver get inflamed and and so it's

Brandy Schantz (38:29.881)
Yes.

Brandy Schantz (38:52.248)
Yes.

Amy McClelland (38:52.832)
This incredible science of oncology and chemotherapy, it means that everybody gets something a little bit different and the complexity behind a cancer diagnosis is absolutely monumental. And it's a real testament to chemotherapy nurses because they are so knowledgeable and they have people's lives in their hands every minute of the day. The work that they do is incredible. But I guess the point I'm making is that

I didn't know this before I got told I had cancer. And my view of cancer was just that it was this great, big, terrible, terrible thing. And that was it. I didn't know anything else, anything else, no detail. And I do feel that that is sort of the crux of the issue. If I tell someone that I had cancer or that I'm receiving cancer treatment, they think chemotherapy, she's gonna be sick, she's gonna be losing her hair, she's gonna be throwing up in the office.

Brandy Schantz (39:22.361)
No.

Brandy Schantz (39:30.34)
Yes.

Amy McClelland (39:50.494)
I'm good. My hair's growing back. I'm getting immunotherapy now, so I'm not even doing chemotherapy anymore. Immunotherapy is an injection in the leg. It gives me a big red spot on the leg for about 24 hours. I don't have any symptoms. I'm quite lucky there. Some people do, but I don't. But if they actually just knew what the sort of nuances were of curative cancer treatment, or any cancer treatment really, they probably wouldn't be.

Brandy Schantz (40:01.146)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (40:10.852)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (40:17.07)
Yes.

Amy McClelland (40:18.83)
panicking as much about what it would mean for them and their organization.

Brandy Schantz (40:23.864)
Now, absolutely. So you're right. Education, speaking out, and really getting people to listen, I think is so important. And I really appreciate you speaking out and telling people what your experience is, because it is scary. It's difficult. It takes a lot of vulnerability to say, hey, I was this super successful person always going upwards, and then now I can't even get anybody to hire me. That's difficult.

It requires a lot of vulnerability and I just thank you for doing that article because it's hard to do, but it lets people know that they're not alone. And it really kind of puts companies on notice. Hey, look what's happening.

Amy McClelland (41:11.712)
in huge way, in a huge way. And it was really scary. And yeah, thank you for saying that. mean, it was scary because the day that it came out, you know, Fortune magazine, fortune.com, my face was on their website next to an article about Donald Trump. And then on the other side was an article about Elon Musk. And then underneath that was an article about Whitney Wolf heard, you know, so these are people that I

would never ever, ever have imagined being featured next to in Fortune magazine. So it was terrifying. And my husband and I were just standing in the kitchen, know, Googling my Googling me going, my God, what's going on? was, it was a pretty scary kind of handshake moment to see, see myself so out there in the world. And it's, only been positive to be honest with you. I mean, it's been positive.

Brandy Schantz (41:40.835)
Yes.

Amy McClelland (42:04.448)
in every single way because I have got to connect with so many people and people have been surprised, people have felt educated, people have felt empowered. And I have just felt like I've gained control and I haven't got a job yet, like I said. And so, you know, the jury's still out on whether taking that much control is actually working for me or against me. But at the moment, I think if I just put the job to one side for a second.

Brandy Schantz (42:32.824)
Mm-hmm.

Amy McClelland (42:33.46)
I feel so much more power and power during cancer. there's, there's nothing, there's nothing better than getting that feeling back.

Brandy Schantz (42:44.696)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (42:49.156)
That's a great way to end it and get your power back. Yes. Thank you so much for everybody who hasn't read the article yet. It's in Fortune Magazine, Amy McClellan. It's a great article. And again, I thank you so much for sharing your story. You've done so much for all of us.

Amy McClelland (43:08.29)
Thank you so much for having me, I've really enjoyed it. Thank you.