Healing Through Chronic Illness: A Journey with Crohn's

In this episode of Living Chronic, Brandy Schantz speaks with Sarah Dineen, an intuitive healing coach and Crohn's disease patient. They discuss Sarah's 34-year journey with Crohn's, the challenges of navigating the healthcare system, the impact of trauma on health, and the importance of integrating both traditional and holistic healing methods. Sarah shares her experiences with biologics, surgery, and the emotional toll of chronic illness, while also emphasizing the significance of stress management and self-care techniques like tapping and Reiki.

Transcript

Brandy Schantz (00:01.24)
Welcome back, this is Brandy Schantz and you're listening to Living Chronic. Today I'm here with Sarah Denine of Intuitive Healing, Heart and Shield Healing. She's an intuitive healing coach. So welcome Sarah.

Sarah Dineen (00:15.061)
Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here with you, Brandy.

Brandy Schantz (00:17.806)
Thank you for being on the show. know, I feature people who have a big range of, you know, diseases and disorders and, you know, just various issues that they've dealt with, living chronic. But I always have a special place in my heart for the IBD community as a Crohn's patient. And of course, you've been living with Crohn's disease for 34 years now, and you also have an ostomy. So tell me,

Sarah Dineen (00:42.751)
Yes, 34.

Brandy Schantz (00:47.522)
a little bit about your journey and how you were diagnosed with Crohn's and what it's like living with Crohn's disease for Sarah.

Sarah Dineen (00:55.499)
So I was diagnosed at 18 and the gastroenterologist was pretty much like, okay, this is what you have, come back if there's problems. And at 18, that was a little surreal since I went there having problems. And now this person told me what's wrong with me. I had no idea what it was and now he wasn't gonna help me. So I navigated the process of finding someone new who could help and it was prednisone here and modifying stuff there and just

Brandy Schantz (01:08.43)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Dineen (01:24.683)
Even when you're that age, just trying to process everything is a little different. And fast forward to my 20s when it was all about biologics and I associated biologics with cancer. That was pretty much what was out there. That was the information. we didn't have social media to bounce off other people and their experiences. So I got to the point where my knowledge of what I had was you treat the symptoms because there's no cure.

Brandy Schantz (01:28.888)
Yes.

Brandy Schantz (01:36.556)
Right.

Sarah Dineen (01:52.187)
and that was said to me by a doctor once, so that's how I handled things. And I was adverse to biologics because I said, I'm not ready to die, so I don't want cancer. And got to the point where I was having really bad flares. And I guess what I would call a bad flare were really partial obstructions. And I just three days in bed and my little routine and I would get through it because again, there's no cure, just you do what you do.

Brandy Schantz (02:13.485)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Dineen (02:21.693)
I've gotten a lot of my strength and resilience from that. And in 2021 had a really bad flare that landed me in the ER. And that started the process of now some new doctors, I was mismanaged by the first one. The second one was a little better. And he referred me to a specialist at a Mount Sinai. And that is where I kind of owe the biggest part of my progress with my disease, someone who understood specifically he worked with IBD patients. And

I started biologics then because he literally broke down the statistics for me as far as what you get if you get the cancer. And he already had those statistics, so I was going to be safe. And he put my mind at ease in a very mathematical way. And the first one was doing well until I failed it and developed medication-induced lupus. And that started the process of navigating that.

Brandy Schantz (03:00.206)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (03:15.363)
Yep.

Sarah Dineen (03:18.951)
I'm being extremely grateful that after six months, my symptoms would go away with that once I stopped the medication. And it took about three months to start a new one. That one worked well until it didn't. I had a lot of stress in my life and had a bout where it probably wasn't even Crohn's related. It was a virus, but I was at my third local GI doctor because the second one had gone out for his own personal surgery. And it was one of those moments, first visit where you were like,

This is who I'm meant to see. And I still was seeing the Mount Sinai doctor, but they were really collaborating, which was the purpose in the first place. And they reordered all the tests, the MRI, the colonoscopy, blood work. And him and I agreed at the end that it probably was a universal induced virus to get me to go back. And his assessment of all of my exams were just, okay, you need to go to have a visit with here.

Brandy Schantz (03:50.19)
Hmm.

Sarah Dineen (04:17.727)
New York City guy, and at the same time, you should probably see a surgeon. So that was pretty scary. I'd never wanted surgery. And a couple months later, I met with them and both fantastic, pretty much told me like it was and it was a lot to process. But being that it had been a couple months since the MRI, they wanted an updated one. And my life had turned pretty much upside down in that period regarding my marriage. So the stress was

Brandy Schantz (04:19.374)
Mm.

Sarah Dineen (04:47.731)
ridiculously through the roof. And that second MRI showed significant changes from the previous one to the thought that the radiologist said, okay, you better do some biopsies because there might be cancer here. within, I would think it was 10 days of the surgeon getting back to me with my results, I was in surgery. That complicated process, it was supposed to be four and a half hours turned out to be six.

Brandy Schantz (05:08.386)
Mm.

Sarah Dineen (05:16.659)
I had a 1 % chance of coming out with an Osteopy and I woke up with one, but was very much at peace with it because of the amount of struggle that I had. I was like, okay, this is what I need in the moment. He did it because my sigmoid and colon almost ruptured during the surgery. There was multiple areas that he removed. There were fistulas, there were strictures. I was pretty much a hot mess. And, you know, I...

Brandy Schantz (05:26.062)
Hmm.

Brandy Schantz (05:41.61)
Yeah.

Sarah Dineen (05:45.131)
I felt freedom for the first time with the ostomy and he made it quite clear from the beginning, look, it's not gonna be permanent, you know? And I even had a friend, a good friend who also has an ostomy who's permanent. And she was like, no, it's the best thing that ever happened. You should stay with it. I'm like, well, but he doesn't feel I need to, so we're not gonna necessarily get that dramatic about it. And I wound up having it reversed three and a half months later. And it was almost like, okay, time to start the healing that you just did all over again. And...

Brandy Schantz (06:12.642)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Dineen (06:14.059)
Now on Skyrizy, which is pretty much the last biologic that's available to me. The lupus kind of had me fail all of that category, which you know well. And yeah, so the Skyrizy is managing. Unfortunately, I definitely have an IBS component. So I can eat things now, but I'm definitely not symptom free with the stress of other things in my life. And I look forward to getting to a point where

Brandy Schantz (06:22.484)
Mm-hmm. Yes. All too well.

Brandy Schantz (06:33.87)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Dineen (06:42.323)
once those stressors are gone, that I could fully heal. So even though it's been over two years since the surgeries, it's hard to look at what I went through with that and know that, okay, I can eat things, but you still have the struggles. That's hard, it's hard.

Brandy Schantz (06:45.805)
Yes.

Brandy Schantz (06:56.982)
Yeah, absolutely. Well, and first of all, can we just take a moment to appreciate the doctors who take the time to sit down and discuss a medication with you? It's amazing how few doctors are willing to do that. It's just, hey, this is what I'm going to prescribe you. And finding those really great doctors who can say, all right, let's sit down and talk about it. What are your misgivings? What do you want to know about this drug? Let's talk about risks. Let's talk about.

Sarah Dineen (07:07.167)
Yes.

Sarah Dineen (07:10.975)
Yeah. Yeah.

Brandy Schantz (07:26.124)
what your options are. mean, aren't we thankful for those guys?

Sarah Dineen (07:31.273)
Yes, extremely grateful. I wish that the person in my twenties had done the same thing and, you know.

Brandy Schantz (07:35.604)
Yes, I mean...

They're the best. But of course, as these drugs do, and you you and I have had the same experience, they can cause complications and we've both suffered drug medication induced lupus. probably one of the most difficult things I've ever gone through in my life. It's traumatic. And that trauma absolutely can impact your health and how you're doing. I myself have had a

Sarah Dineen (07:59.411)
I agree. I agree.

Brandy Schantz (08:08.898)
Big struggle getting through the trauma, the medical trauma I've been through and my body has responded in kind. still, obviously I have other things that happen to me as well with dysautonomia pots, but trauma feeds into that and makes those things worse. So how are you learning to live with that trauma, overcome it and how has it been affecting both your IBS and your mental health?

Sarah Dineen (08:13.173)
Yes, yes.

Sarah Dineen (08:41.778)
I start with the standpoint that everything that's happened has been meant to happen for my growth. And that does not mean I excuse away everything that's happened and it doesn't affect me. It's almost quite the opposite. It helps me understand that the trauma that I've gotten, I mean, the first doctor who mismanaged me, the trauma from being in the hospital, you know, two and a half hours, five attempts to get an IV and watching them.

know exactly what they were doing wrong and they would listen to me. You know, it just it was one trauma after another. And I have to start with the foundation of this is shaping me. But then I know ways that I can work through my things. And when then that doesn't work, it's very frustrating because it, it kind of makes you feel like a failure for something that you didn't ask for. You know, I know

okay, you should work on your vagus nerve and your nervous system and everything else when it comes to your symptoms and the gut-brain connection, all of this stuff, but you do the routines, you follow the advice, and when those things don't work, it's absolutely defeating and almost like a secondary trauma because, I've done all the things, but they didn't work. Why? Why one more thing? I have to believe that there is a greater picture in this.

Brandy Schantz (09:53.728)
It is. It is.

Sarah Dineen (10:07.217)
someday I will recognize it. But you feel like you overcome one thing and things look a little brighter and then there's another one.

Brandy Schantz (10:14.619)
Here comes the next. Absolutely. And it's frustrating because, you know, doctors will tell you, you have to get rid of the stress. You have to deal with the trauma. Well, that sounds great, doc, except trauma seems to just throw itself at me at every turn. I think I've gotten past it at one corner and bam, there it is at the next corner. What do you want me to do? It's a struggle.

Sarah Dineen (10:26.027)
And yes.

Sarah Dineen (10:34.837)
Yes.

Sarah Dineen (10:39.647)
Yeah, you know, and exactly that, the getting rid of the stress sounds very easy on the surface. I'm a Reiki master and for the period of time between those two aforementioned MRIs, I was spending every evening or at least once a day, depending on my schedule, doing self Reiki and working on those areas and I was feeling good. So to see that

Brandy Schantz (10:47.531)
Yeah, it does.

Sarah Dineen (11:08.071)
results of that second MRI and go, my god, it's so much worse. It really makes you doubt yourself and your healing capabilities. But it also just shows the power of stress and we are living with stress-based diseases. that's, you know, sometimes no matter what we do to be proactive, the stress wins.

Brandy Schantz (11:23.267)
Yes.

Brandy Schantz (11:32.43)
You know, and that's the reality of it. You know, you hear all the time, lower your stress, do the work, breath work. You know, I don't know what these doctors think. Fine, doc, hand me $10 million, get rid of this person stressing me out and take my disease while you're at it. You know, what do you want me to do, doc? I'm doing the best I can. And that's really the point, you know?

Sarah Dineen (11:50.155)
Yeah.

Brandy Schantz (12:01.422)
Because it's not our fault. It's not that we're not trying. And I think so often, all of us, every single one of us out there living with a chronic illness, you encounter people that seem to think, well, what are you doing? Are you trying? But are you really trying? But did you, what are you eating? know, hey guys, there's nothing I'm not doing here, guys. There's nothing I'm not trying. Nobody tries harder than a chronically ill person.

Sarah Dineen (12:14.537)
Yes.

Sarah Dineen (12:21.213)
It's always our fault.

Sarah Dineen (12:25.919)
Right. Right.

Yes.

Brandy Schantz (12:30.502)
And there's only so much you can do. I mean, is it something shaping us? I don't see other people getting this stuff to shape them. I think we just have a really difficult hand in life and sometimes it's worth telling people, shut up. I'm doing the best I can.

Sarah Dineen (12:46.271)
Yeah, yeah. You know, and I faced a lot of that with the surgery. you're all better now. You're fixed now. And I'm fixed, yes, absolutely with a disease that has no cure. You know, because I am not as sick as I was doesn't mean I'm not sick. It just means I'm somewhat better. But you know, stress overwork.

Brandy Schantz (12:53.186)
Yeah. hold on.

Brandy Schantz (13:09.123)
Yes.

Sarah Dineen (13:14.859)
exhaustion. It's real. You know, I had bouts of anemia to the point where my ferritin was two and the iron infusions, begging for those because fun fact, if you're not already getting an infusion for something else, a lot of places won't help you get just an iron infusion. you know.

Brandy Schantz (13:17.325)
It is.

Brandy Schantz (13:23.049)
gosh.

Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (13:34.274)
Right? Yeah, that's true.

Sarah Dineen (13:37.589)
six months to get someplace to do that. And now you're struggling with all that, but life still happens. You still have your responsibilities. And yeah, you're fine. You surgery.

Brandy Schantz (13:47.474)
That's it right there. That's the reality of it. Every time we're having to deal with something new, every delay in our healthcare, every wait we need to see if we can get this medication approved, hold on while we see if we can get you an appointment, it's not for six months, every delay in an MRI or whatever it is, it's taking time out of our lives and adding to the stress that makes the disease worse.

It's a compounding factor. And how do we get them to fix that? I wish we could just scream at every influencer out there with an opinion and every doctor and a nurse and insurance company, person, exec, low level, doesn't matter. Everything you're doing to me is making the disease worse.

Sarah Dineen (14:15.733)
Yes.

Yes.

Sarah Dineen (14:42.688)
Yes.

Brandy Schantz (14:43.52)
It's making everything more expensive. It's making my life more expensive because I have to maybe hire help to help me to get by or try to pay out of pocket for various medications or not go to work. You know, I'm not participating in the economy. makes everything more expensive for you because now I need more meds, more surgeries, more tests, more doctors. It's, you know, it just compounds in such an unreal way. And I wish people would understand that.

Sarah Dineen (15:07.637)
Yeah, absolutely.

Brandy Schantz (15:13.748)
Every little thing makes it worse.

Sarah Dineen (15:14.142)
Yes.

I had failed Stellara because we had changed insurance at work and I proactively reached out about my med early, making sure it was going to get to me. And I spent probably 25 hours over 30 days on the phone trying to find out where it was going to come from because no one knew, but there were no.

Brandy Schantz (15:20.876)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (15:38.542)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Dineen (15:39.623)
easy phone numbers to connect with and research talking to people at three different specialty pharmacies. By the time I got my Stalara, it was late and I failed it. And, you know, honestly, that is that point where no one understands the gravity of that. So it's easy. It is easy to say no one cares because they don't understand. You you fail one of these meds, you're done. It's find one more. And yeah, so.

Brandy Schantz (15:55.116)
Right?

Brandy Schantz (16:01.494)
Right. That's it. It's one less for you.

And I think so many people, yeah, I think so many people believe that everything's simple and easy. Everybody knows about cancer. We always talk about that on this show. Everybody knows about cancer. Everybody understands that everybody's sympathetic. They want, they're cheering you on. They know that you must be having a hard time. If you can't go somewhere, they're like, well, you have cancer. I understand. But they also understand the treatment and exactly what that entails and the timeframe.

Sarah Dineen (16:09.483)
I went through that red tape.

Sarah Dineen (16:36.533)
Yes.

Brandy Schantz (16:39.054)
So explaining to them our disease where we can be out with them one day and not be able to leave the house the next, know, running around like a normal person on Monday, looking like a dying person on Friday and medications. These are very new. The medications that we're able to take today are very new. They didn't exist 20 years ago. You had prednisone and

Sarah Dineen (16:51.787)
Yes.

Sarah Dineen (17:03.103)
No, they did not. Yeah.

Brandy Schantz (17:07.284)
handful of other options and that was it. So when we fail one of these drugs, you're really hurting us in a way that is detrimental. It's very detrimental to our life and our health. Who knows if they're ever able to come up with any additional drugs. The more we fail, the fewer options we have to be able to live. And I wish people could understand that.

Sarah Dineen (17:28.789)
Yes, exactly. Yeah, I wish they could understand that, you know, yes, I'm in surgical remission. It can come back anytime to a different healthy area. And that's so hard when people, they see you, you know, essentially living life and, you know, still not recognizing that, you know, you may still have urgency or things like that at a moment's notice. And it's a little hard to comprehend if you're not living it. But

Brandy Schantz (17:38.616)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Brandy Schantz (17:45.122)
Yeah.

Sarah Dineen (17:58.793)
You it's, you're handed one of the world's most embarrassing diseases and at the same time, almost expected to explain yourself anytime something comes up about it. And if that's not the epitome of difficult, I'm not sure what is.

Brandy Schantz (18:04.428)
Yes.

Brandy Schantz (18:11.192)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Brandy Schantz (18:16.491)
You know, I will say this, I don't know about you, but I have become very good at just saying some, the things, right, that I would have never said 20 years ago.

Sarah Dineen (18:25.333)
Yes. Yes.

Brandy Schantz (18:27.49)
I will tell you exactly why you need to let me get up and go to the bathroom ASAP. I will walk into a store and be like, ma'am, you need to open that door yesterday or you're gonna have a big mess. okay. And then, you know, they let me, you know, it's, you know, I don't know how else to look at it, but this is our life. What else can we do?

Sarah Dineen (18:31.455)
Yes.

Sarah Dineen (18:53.707)
Right, and then my thought process just became, look, if you're going to judge, imagine living with it. None of us asked for this. It would not be a top choice of things to have.

Brandy Schantz (18:59.426)
Yeah.

Brandy Schantz (19:04.672)
Yes. part of it, isn't that what contributes to the difficulty as well? Because you yourself wake up and don't understand what's just happened. You you wake up in the morning, things are bad, and you're like, my God, but I was so good yesterday. I felt great. I have plans. How is it that I could have been so good on Monday and so bad on Tuesday? So when somebody comes up to you on Tuesday and says, what do mean you can't do anything? You were fine on Monday. It's just, it's always that tipping point, isn't it?

Sarah Dineen (19:34.283)
Yeah, and I'm tired of having to explain myself, you know?

Brandy Schantz (19:35.384)
Like, grr.

Yeah, it's hard enough for me to understand. Just sit back and let it go. Just try to love harder. That was advice by another guest. Love harder. And I like the advice. Tell that to your friends and family and coworkers. Stop judging. Just love harder. Leave me alone. So you have such a great

Sarah Dineen (19:42.463)
Yes.

Sarah Dineen (19:50.002)
Yes.

Sarah Dineen (19:57.567)
Yes.

Brandy Schantz (20:09.646)
experience and point of view. You're also in the medical field yourself. You're a paramedic and now of course doing the intuitive healing coaching and this all has a very big space in my heart because as much as I know I have to have some traditional medicine in my life. I can't get away from it. Sorry folks. There's no cure for anything I have. have

Sarah Dineen (20:16.511)
Yes.

Brandy Schantz (20:38.296)
searched up, down and around and done all the things. But I do feel better when I use various healing methods that are not your traditional westernized medicine. And I always say that to people, okay, I can't get rid of westernized medicine, but don't look at everything as hokey. A breathing exercise, releasing the stress, the reiki, these are all very important parts of your overall health.

So tell me a little bit about what you do as an intuitive healing coach.

Sarah Dineen (21:10.101)
So I love coming at people's problems from a holistic standpoint, especially with my background in medicine, because it really just proves there's a place for both. stress is first and foremost, it's like a silent killer for people, whether it's us with chronic diseases that can't be cured, or people who are dealing with life stressors that have an end point. The modalities that I use can really help anybody.

Brandy Schantz (21:22.018)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Dineen (21:40.619)
I am very fond of tapping, EFT, if you're familiar with that, because it really kind of resets everything that's going on. And in a very short period of time, you can essentially knock yourself down from feeling at your worst about a particular thing to taking that edge off and getting down, say, from like a 10 on a scale of one to 10 to a two or having it gone.

And long before I did this to help others, I would help tap myself out of flares just because I knew this particular one's not caused by something I ate. This is some sort of stressor that's now shown up in this way and I would do my best to identify it. Sometimes I knew it wasn't something I ate, but I still didn't know what the stressor was and I would generically just tap on my symptoms to get rid of them and...

It was so helpful because as you know in a flare, it's just so painful. Like the cramping and the, you know, it's debilitating. It's, you know, two or three days in bed and that's literally the only thing you can do. So that became one of my favorites and I'll be honest, I have no idea where I initially learned it. But then I actually did take a course on it and learned intuitive tapping. So there's a process that people use when they tap. There's different

Brandy Schantz (22:44.398)
Mm.

It really is.

Sarah Dineen (23:08.011)
places that teach it, but my intuitive aspect kind of takes it at another level. You know, I do some deep questioning with people before I work with them. And then I also use kind of spirit to guide where I go with it. And while it's important to use a person's own words, because that's what resonates best with them, I will kind of just know things to say. And that usually hits home with them where they didn't recognize it was a problem or something that was.

related to whatever they were experiencing and that in itself has just been, it's really been successful.

Brandy Schantz (23:45.07)
So for those who don't know what tapping is, explain what that is.

Sarah Dineen (23:47.979)
So tapping is also called emotional freedom technique or EFT. You can look it up that way. It's pretty much just tapping different parts of your body with your fingers. The biggest thing is there's no right or wrong way to do it. So you can use one finger, you can use multiple fingers. There's points called like meridian lines in your body. Those are energy lines. And you tap on different parts, some of which include like a

above your eyebrows, kind of right in the center where they meet. You can tap at the side of your eye, underneath your eye, above your lip, in the little crook of your chin, just below your collarbone. And there's a few more places. You don't have to do every single one. You can do a series of like one time around. You can go through multiple times. A lot of people have different processes and

The one thing I have learned is it doesn't really matter which process you choose because they do all work because they have the same purpose. And what I will do if I'm working with someone is I will say something as we're tapping and they will repeat what I'm saying. And we move to different points to just kind of move that energy around. And you are essentially shifting their energy enough that it's releasing whatever the problem was that we started with.

And once I'm done with kind of rooting out all that negative stuff, then I shifted to more positive. And based on my question in the beginning, we figure out how do they want to feel. I associate colors to the negative stuff and the positive stuff. And we work through all those things, kind of releasing things, and then almost like seeding back in some more positive things.

Brandy Schantz (25:38.934)
And you know, this can be very, very helpful. I think that we don't put enough emphasis on how these kinds of things can help with your symptoms. You know, and obviously neither one of us are saying that we can just get rid of the Stelarra or the Sky Rizzi or anything like that. But there is a way to improve how you feel. And these are great techniques.

Sarah Dineen (25:56.117)
Yes.

Sarah Dineen (26:05.771)
Absolutely. I find the breathing, the breathing is usually my go-to, say, if there's a moment of urgency, but you're not in any way, shape, form in a place to get there. Say you're on a highway and there's an exit for 10 miles. I will use breathing techniques and it's not unheard of for me to just tap while I'm driving. But I find a lot of times those things come on and it's not related to necessarily an emotion or a stressor that just occurred. So I find the breathing in those aspects is more helpful because you're stimulating the vagus nerve.

Brandy Schantz (26:10.85)
Mm-hmm.

Brandy Schantz (26:19.49)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Dineen (26:35.541)
Hopefully, that will get you to where you need to be. So there's just between the breath work and energy work, there's a lot of helpful in the moment things. And yes, I agree. They cannot hear it because Lord knows. Yeah. Yeah.

Brandy Schantz (26:51.118)
Here we are.

Brandy Schantz (26:54.894)
It's, but it's so important to point out. think so often on the internet as it be, everybody kind of falls into one of two places on every single issue or every idea out there. And it has to be an extreme on either one. It's either no Westernized medicine and you can cure everything with some breathing or it's, that's all hokey and it's not real.

You only do the Westernized medicine and there is of course space for both. And when using both in a very meaningful way, you can create a much better life, quality of life for yourself. your HeartShield Healing is your business. And tell me a little bit about how people can get ahold of you, how they can contact you.

Sarah Dineen (27:23.21)
Yeah.

Sarah Dineen (27:45.013)
Correct.

Brandy Schantz (27:52.088)
for services and what they can expect.

Sarah Dineen (27:56.267)
So you can visit my website, heartshieldhealing.com. It is a bit under construction as I've rebranded. So there is a link there that will pick you back to my old site just so that can see all of the things. That is my main way to contact me. I'm also on Instagram and Facebook, still currently as Sarah Denine Heals. That's the old name. So either one of those you can find me at and those will link you to ways to contact me.

Brandy Schantz (28:27.032)
Well, thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing your journey and the great work that you do to help people to heal. really appreciate it.

Sarah Dineen (28:37.419)
Thanks Brandy, I appreciate taking the time.

Brandy Schantz (28:40.146)
And for everybody listening, I will have Sarah's website and all of her contact information in the show notes. So thank you for listening to the show and thank you again, Sarah.

Sarah Dineen (28:51.861)
Take care, thank you.