Middle School Life
Welcome to Middle School Life, where innovation meets education! Join us as we explore the latest trends, share inspiring ideas, and discuss strategies to create an enriching middle school experience for all.
In each episode, your hosts, Assistant Principal Victoria Hammond and middle school teacher Dr. Jennifer Erdmann, will bring their wealth of knowledge and passion for education to the forefront.
Middle School Life
Teachers and Administrators: Building Bridges through Effective Communication
Are you often left wondering why there's a disconnect between school policies and classroom realities? Ever felt like your voice is unheard in the administrative labyrinth? Your hosts, Assistant Principal Victoria Hammond and Middle School Teacher Dr Jennifer Erdmann, are here to tackle this head-on! In our explorative conversation, we're dissecting the elephant in the room - communication within the educational system. We're focusing on the effects of organizational silence and the potential damage it can bring to the dynamic between teachers and administrators. Expect to delve into the nuances of empathy, transparency, and validation, and the critical role they play in these relationships.
We're not stopping there, folks! Together, we're going to navigate the four quadrants of communication and relationships, and their influence on interactions within an educational environment. We're pulling back the curtain on obnoxious aggression, manipulative insincerity, and ruinous empathy, discussing the pitfalls of these communication styles, and how they can not only inhibit trust but also be a roadblock to progress. Stick around for the grand finale as we equip you with practical strategies to bolster communication between teachers and administrators, fostering a culture of respect, collaboration, and ongoing feedback. So, are you ready to be an agent of change and inspire better communication within middle school education? Join us!
Welcome to Middle School Life, the podcast where teachers and administrators can exchange ideas and learn from one another. Your hosts, assistant Principal Victoria Hammond and Middle School teacher Dr Jennifer Erdman, helped to bridge the gap between educators and administrators, discussing ways to create a more productive, efficient and welcoming environment. Join us as we work to inspire change in middle school education. Let's get started.
Speaker 2:All right listeners, welcome back to another episode of Middle School Life the podcast. Thank you so much to all of our listeners who tuned in for our very first episode. We were overwhelmed with the support and feedback that we got from each of you. We so look forward to spending more time together and getting more of your feedback. We truly appreciated every bit of it constructive criticism as well as all of the positives.
Speaker 2:Who doesn't like to be told good job and get an out of boy every once in a while? But honestly, I wasn't expecting so much support for our first episode, so we cannot thank you enough. We are extremely excited about today's topic around communication and respectful discourse, and we're going to talk a little bit about what that looks like from the teacher perspective and what it looks like from the admin perspective, and then talk a little bit about some research we've done and some studies that really place that emphasis on how much of a role communication plays in education, and I feel like our primary focus today is that communication between teachers and administrators and how that plays a vital role in our success. So, as usual, teachers first. Dr Edmond.
Speaker 3:Welcome back everyone. Great introduction, tori. I want to piggyback on what Tori said and just thank you all for our first episode and the feedback on that. It truly was just exciting and rewarding to get that feedback after so much planning and stress and Tori and I had no idea what to expect. We didn't know if just our parents would listen. But it really has become something nice. We had almost 100 downloads so far and I hope that just continues from here and to win Canada.
Speaker 2:We're now international superstars. Indeed, that might be a little bit of an exaggeration, but Not much really. Still pretty cool, though. It's really not much of an exaggeration, not much Not much so.
Speaker 3:As Tori mentioned at the beginning, I do want to start with my whole perspective as a teacher on the relationship between teachers and administrators and what that communication looks like. I honestly think that effective communication is the absolute cornerstone of any successful organization, and the educational system is no different. The relationship between teachers and administrators forms the foundation upon which a school's culture, its policies and educational outcomes are built. The collaboration and communication between these two groups greatly impacts the quality of education and the well-being of both educators and, ultimately, the students. So I really want to start my piece today talking about what happens when effective communication and collaborative relationships don't exist. I know I'm coming from starting off from a place of negativity, but I'm going to build to the positive. So we could literally talk for hours, and before we started to record this, we actually said we could actually speak on this forever.
Speaker 3:But I want to focus on one phenomenon that I recently saw during my research on this, and it's called organizational silence. It's a relatively new term to educational research, but organizational silence refers to the situation where teachers and staff withhold their concerns, ideas or feedback from administrators, even when they witness problems or have valuable insights to share. So this can happen for various reasons, such as fear of retaliation or a lack of trust between teachers and administrators, but I really think that organizational silence happens when teachers believe that their input will not make a difference. So I think that if we can look at this, look at organizational silence, and understand that it matters, because if teachers choose to remain silent about the concerns, it can lead to misopportunities for improvement. Additionally, administrators may not be aware of issues affecting teachers, classrooms or students, which then results in policies or decisions that aren't aligned with the needs of those directly involved. So I think if there's a lack of trust between teachers and administrators, organizational silence can further erode that trust. When teachers feel their voices aren't heard or valued, they can become disillusioned and disengaged, ultimately affecting their job satisfaction and perhaps even their teaching performance, which leads us to the ultimate of poor student outcomes.
Speaker 3:Absolutely so. We all know we're adults and we all know that every relationship requires work, I don't care what relationship that is. So the teacher and administrator relationship should be no different. We should still think of it as a relationship that has to always be worked on. In order to break the cycle of organizational silence, I think a few things need to happen and, purely from a teacher perspective, I think a lot of this has to start with the administrators. So I'll say that up front, that my perspective is from that. So I think that leaders and administrators need to actively listen to teachers, show empathy, which I think is so important. If an administrator can show empathy, I think that's an incredible skill or characteristic, I should say, of leadership. I think they should ask clarifying questions and validate the feelings and concerns of teachers and make it clear that you, as an administrator, value our input.
Speaker 3:So a second thing that I think needs to happen is administrators should be transparent about decisions, policies and the reasons behind them. When teachers see transparency and leadership, I think that they are more likely to open up. That's just my opinion. And then a third reason I think leaders need to, and I think this is a big one. I think leaders need to actively seek feedback from teachers on a regular basis, and this could be formally or informally. It could be if you see somebody at the car line hey, what did you think about this? Or what do you want to do about this? Or send a survey, send whatever. Just think of some way to actively seek feedback, because I just think that is so important and it could be. It doesn't have to be hard, it does not have to be hard.
Speaker 3:But I also think my final point on this of what things can be done is teachers or teams who positively contribute and I'm not talking about the naggers, these are the positively contribute to the open communication and problem solving should be recognized and this can create positive reinforcement for speaking up and acknowledging their voices matter. It could be again getting it. I'm not saying anything has to be difficult. This could be at a staff meeting, saying this team is doing this and we want to tell them that we love their idea and they're going with it. So maybe you all want to try this. Whatever it can be anything like that.
Speaker 3:And when teachers are not silent and when administrators do listen, obviously the channels of communication open and administrators can gain a clearer understanding of the real-time needs and concerns of teachers. And why wouldn't you want to know that? You know, as an administrator, you should want to know that Having this insight gives administrators the opportunity to make better informed decisions that promote a more supportive and effective environment. And I think at the heart of a teacher and administrator relationship lies a shared goal and that is student success. I mean, we are in it for the same reasons, right? So when we communicate effectively, we can work to ensure that every student's unique needs are met. And I just want to conclude my part and I know Toriel add to hers and add, you know, give her own insights to this but I think that when teachers feel empowered to speak up, the overall climate and culture next week's episode of the school will be greatly improved. Effective communication between teachers and administrators is really the bridge that connects classroom experiences to school-wide policies and it's honestly the glue that holds this dynamic relationship together.
Speaker 2:Wow, that was so Good to hear and I think there's a lot of people out there who need to hear that message and I really think you delivered it well. And one thing that you were talking about that I don't even think I've ever heard the term used before, but that really was kind of an aha moment for me was, you said, organizational silence?
Speaker 3:Because I've always wondered why they don't say much, and it's a term that's used in corporations and things like that. But it's just now. Organizational silence is just now coming into for the last decade or so into education research, but I think it is so powerful and it explains so much of why teachers don't speak up.
Speaker 2:Why good teachers don't speak up?
Speaker 3:I mean, you have the ones that are always going to speak up and I think that when somebody new speaks up, we've got to figure out how to give them the vehicle and the tools to be able to to voice their input, because their voices have got to get out there if any changes are going to get made.
Speaker 2:Absolutely so. As an administrator, how do I empower our staff to have those voices and how do we empower each other and how do we feel like, oh, I can tell them that because it's not going to cause an issue down the road. They're going to understand what I have to say and they're going to understand that sometimes I just need to vent, and I think one of my, one of the things is sometimes you have teachers, they're coming to you and they need to vent and as an administrator, maybe you really need to do X, y and Z, but taking the time to have that open door policy and mean that open door policy and have that teacher come in and sit and talk, and even if it is just a vent session, is so important because everybody has a different perspective going to that school and as an administrator, you want to have a good pulse on how the teachers are feeling. And if you don't understand that they feel this way, or you don't, you don't make them feel like their voice matters, then they will continue to not say things and then they will tell their teaching partners hey, don't waste your time going to so, and so they, they don't have the time, and I feel like that is something that I personally try to stay cognizant of, because the last thing I would want is a teacher to think they can't come talk to me. But if you think about administrator and teacher relationships over the United States and even you know, worldwide, how many of those relationships do people truly feel that they can voice and that their opinion does matter?
Speaker 2:Because when teachers feel passionate about what they're doing and they feel like they have a leader who will empower them to make decisions on their own and to do what's best for their students, but to also be there as an ear to listen to them when they are struggling and to understand that every day is not rainbows and daisies, because, especially in middle school, every day is not rainbows and daisies. It's more like talkies and tantrums some days. So it's really just being cognizant of that. And I really think one of the things I come today with when we're talking about respectful discourse and communication which, of course, we could communicate about communication all day but I really want to talk about the type of communication and how administrators and managers, really in any profession, can take that role and make that difference. And so I recently read a book and I'm not going to lie to you guys. I haven't finished it yet, but I have enough of the premise. I know I lied.
Speaker 3:I have like three chapters left Because I've been waiting for you to give me this book. Well, that's.
Speaker 2:And so that's why I didn't bring the book today, because, like I was like, oh, and then I was going to finish it before I came back. And this book I'm talking about it's called Radical Candor by Kim Scott, and when she's talking in her book a I really like it because she talks about it from just like a really real world perspective. And so when she talks about different ways administrators communicate and the different types of communication that they use and the biggest thing is is that she really is radically honest with her feedback when she talks about the different types of communication and relationships that managers can use, that managers can have with staff, and it really just resonated with me because she talks about how, at any given day, you could be in any quadrant, but where true change can occur and where we can really make that organizational change and where we can completely obliterate the silence and invite the communication. Healthy, respectful communication lives in radical candor. And what does that mean? What does radical candor mean? So envision with me, if you will, a good old quadrant. So think back to when you were in algebra or you're in high school and you're looking at the graph where you have the line vertical, line down the middle horizontal line across and you have four different quadrants. In these quadrants live four different types of relationships and communication. And I want you to picture on that vertical one it says care personally. So that's how much you do care personally or how much you do not care personally, being at the bottom, and then that horizontal line being challenging directly. So how much is that leader challenging directly versus not challenging anybody at all, because they want everything to be daisies and rainbows? And in those four quadrants lives several different types of relationship and communication skills.
Speaker 2:In that bottom one, where we have people who are the bottom right, people who are challenging directly but do not care personally at all, you get a style of obnoxious aggression and what it is is. It's like 100% directness, challenging everybody at work, but without that care behind it. What happens is is the obnoxious aggression is built on I want it this way. It's more of a control perspective. So it's those leaders who want it done their way or the highway, but they don't care about what you have to say or your perspective or your life at home. They just want it done. They can tell you that it's not good enough and they can give you feedback, but they don't receive feedback well. So that's obnoxious aggression and I'm sure many of you have seen that from some type of leader at one point.
Speaker 2:I almost feel like that was, and this is just my perspective. I feel like when I was in school, there was almost this feeling or this perception that I got that principles were that type of they told people what to do, people did it, people didn't question them back and that's the way things were done and it was. It's almost this fear built leadership style and communication style where you tell people what to do, the people do it, end of story. We don't really care much about what you have to say, and that's when you challenge directly and you don't care personally at all.
Speaker 2:Now there's also there's this very dangerous quadrant that's right to the left, the left lower quadrant, and it's called manipulative and sincerity, and these are people who act like they care personally, but they really just want to be liked and they don't actually care about any of those outcomes. So what they're, what they're looking at is they're not challenging anybody directly at all, but they also don't really care that much either. They're just trying to go through and just be liked. And there's a lot of mistrust there, because they also want to be liked by everyone so much and that's where this manipulative and sincerity comes into place that they will tell every single person exactly what that person wants to hear, and sometimes that comes out in the form of I'll throw this person under the bus to the next person, and it comes to serve as a very large place of mistrust.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that that quadrant alone is probably the biggest source of mistrust right there.
Speaker 2:Because you, you almost they. They make people feel like they do care, but they really don't care. They're just trying to, like, meet their own ends by going and they're not challenging you. They're telling you they like your idea, but then they're going to the next person saying, oh yeah, no, I don't really like what they had to say, I like what you had to say. And that's a very dangerous quadrant to live in because those leaders can. Often it leads to mistrust because eventually, word, word of mouth gets around.
Speaker 3:Word spreads quickly on school campuses.
Speaker 2:Very quick and so that that leadership style I don't think would last very long and it would not be a very successful one. Then there is one, if you go right, one up into our upper left hand quadrant, and it's called ruinous empathy. And these are leaders and this is a communication style where people care so much but they don't want to have the difficult conversations because they don't want to make anybody upset. So they care personally but they don't challenge directly. And I feel like that's a quadrant that I sometimes have lived in and that it's a place where I'm trying to grow into this next quadrant of radical candor and I think with experience and with having those conversations, that grows and I really just feel like ruinous empathy feels good but it doesn't lead to growth in an operation.
Speaker 3:And I think a lot of leaders stop at that quadrant. I mean, if I'm picturing it kind of going almost cyclical in a way, I know it doesn't but that upper left quadrant, I really do think that in order to move to the right, I mean you'll talk about that, but I think it's an easy, safe place to be, it feels good and the thing is is sometimes people just want to live in that place that feels good and they don't want to hurt people's feelings.
Speaker 2:But that is not where real growth occurs. So I want to give a quick example, and this is just a made up example. So envision, if you will not, in an education system where it doesn't work quite. It does like. Let's just imagine a small business. So if I have a small business and I am living in this quadrant of ruinous empathy and I have a worker named Bob because who doesn't? Everybody knows Bob, right. So we have this employee, bob, and let's say I'm his manager, for example. So everybody on the team loves Bob. Bob is a great dude. Bob will bring you presents on your birthday and he just brings, like this light and this joy to the office.
Speaker 2:But Bob's work quality is awful and every time he does something, somebody else just has to go and fix it or do it for him, because otherwise it would never get done. So if you are a manager and you're in a ruinous empathy and you're just always telling Bob like hey, bob, like great job on that Bob, like Bob's gonna believe that he is doing what's right and you can claim that you care personally and you do. But if you don't tell him hey, bob, we really need you to do X, y and Z so that this can be a completed project, and you lead him to believe, as a leader, you're leading, and you lead him to believe that his work is good, or you don't challenge the work that he's turning in, then you are leading to his failure. Therefore, you are leading to failure in your own company. And so the thing is is if one day, I finally had enough of Bob and I call Bob and I'm like hey, bob, I have to let you go because of X, y and Z, he's gonna look at you right in the face and he's gonna be like but I didn't know, how am I supposed to improve or change if I don't know what I can be doing better? And so that is where radical candor lives and that is where true growth can happen. And this is your next quadrant, over your upper right hand quadrant, and it's where you care personally and you challenge directly.
Speaker 2:So you have good enough relationships and you have built those personal relationships with your staff that you can look at them and say hey, I really am so glad you're here, I'm so glad that you were able to incorporate these strategies into your classroom. I'm really wondering where those student conversations are happening. So do you have time built into the lesson later on that maybe I didn't see? Or what do you use in your classroom to increase the student to student discourse, cause that's where we really can see students learning, and if you just leave them the feedback hey, I really loved your questions that you were asking the students and I love that you had them writing on whiteboards and that's the feedback you leave in the classroom and you walk away and you don't challenge anything in that classroom.
Speaker 2:When you know, as a professional, that there are things that could have been improved on to do what's best for kids, then A you're not doing what's best for kids and I think that's one of the primary roles of any leader in an education building but you're also not doing what's best for that teacher, because 99.9% of the time the teacher wants constructive feedback.
Speaker 2:They wanna know hey, do you have some tools in your bag that you could give me that could help me become better? Because if we live in ruinous empathy and we don't allow the educators the feedback to grow from, then they live in this place of they could live in this place of mediocracy, not because they don't want to be better, but because they don't know better and people don't know what they don't know Right. So if we're going to communicate with teachers respectfully and we're going to have open communication, then we have to care personally and we have to challenge directly, and that's the whole premise of the book and I feel like that's how you create positive, bold leaders that care personally and also want to create growth in their teachers and in their students.
Speaker 3:Right, and I think that teachers really, like you said I will add to that Most teachers I know obviously you're going to have your outliers, but most teachers I know want that feedback. You know they don't want to feel attacked. But having a conversation, like you know, I didn't see this when I was in your classroom. Can you tell me what happened after? Those are important not only to you know, have the teacher explain what you may or may not have seen, but it creates, opens those communication, but it creates that trust that I think we're so lacking, because it's we still live in this.
Speaker 3:I think again from my own perspective. I think we often list, you know, live in this space of us against them, where it doesn't need to be anymore. Right, because we are on the same team and it's time we start acting like it. Right, you know it in both sides and I hate using that term, both sides, but in this case I think it fits but both sides need to learn how to communicate that way. But I think that we're always open for suggestions. You know, as a teacher, I certainly don't know everything, but I want to learn how to be better at my job. And if you are a lifelong learner, as you are supposed to be as a teacher, then that should be your goal.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and I think it's important that if, if we come in and this is where it kind of comes into play I know sometimes teachers are like, oh, I don't want admin in my classroom anymore, but I almost think that comes from an old place of that maybe more heavy handed feedback that is more evaluative.
Speaker 2:And I think that where you're going to see true change occur is that when, when administrators and teachers can team up and administrators can find the time, make the time to be in classrooms more for non evaluative purposes, to come in and truly just learn with the kids and be a part of your classroom and see what some of those positives are and to see where there's some of that room for growth. And you have administrators that are in the classroom with the kids learning alongside and then also providing feedback to the teachers of things that are going great and things that maybe we could try to make us even better. That's when you're going to see that bridging gap. That's where you're going to see kids really coming into class wanting to learn. And having the teachers and the administrators become both on the same side not in us versus them is when we can collaborate and know that both of us care personally about each other and when we're giving feedback, it's for the betterment of the students. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And I think that would change the dynamic really quickly if, if that could happen on a regular basis. And then at that point I'm not speaking for all teachers, but I don't think that it would be such a big deal then, if it's often. But that's, that's just my two cents on that.
Speaker 2:Often and impactful would have the most meaning.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's just there's. There's more to it than just coming in and spending five minutes, I think, if you really want to see the entirety of what you're trying to find. And that's what they're there. They're trying to find things, evidence of learning and stay for the whole class period. There's so many layers to this and I think that future episodes will probably come from this. Like I mentioned earlier that this we will talk about climate and culture next time, so it all kind of is related.
Speaker 2:Absolutely so. That's coming at you next and then, hopefully in the near future, we're looking for participants who want to become part of our middle school life podcast because, as we all know, collaborative discourse is also extremely important in education. So we want to hear your feedback. We want you to come join us on the show and give us some of your perspectives, because in order for us all to grow, we have to look at things from all perspectives and work together to move our students to the best future. So, thank you so much for listening. Join us next time where we talk about climate and culture. They are not the same, but they definitely need each other. Until next time. This has been Jen and Tori on the middle school life the podcast.
