Middle School Life
Welcome to Middle School Life, where innovation meets education! Join us as we explore the latest trends, share inspiring ideas, and discuss strategies to create an enriching middle school experience for all.
In each episode, your hosts, Assistant Principal Victoria Hammond and middle school teacher Dr. Jennifer Erdmann, will bring their wealth of knowledge and passion for education to the forefront.
Middle School Life
Shaping Futures: Embracing Restorative Justice and Empathy in Middle School Discipline
Embark on a journey with us as we uncover the transformative power of restorative justice and logical consequences in middle school settings, promising to reshape your views on discipline in education. Discover how these strategies, when infused with understanding and empathy, can turn conflicts into pivotal learning experiences. We've returned from our break with fresh perspectives and a hearty welcome to all our listeners, eager to build on the vital discussions initiated by our previous guest, Brittany Dean, on trauma-informed care. This episode is all about the 'why' behind students' actions and the ways in which schools are moving beyond traditional punitive measures to help young adolescents navigate this critical stage of their growth with empathy and emotional intelligence.
We dive into the heart of how modeling desired behavior and implementing Positive Behavioral Interventions and Supports (PBIS) can not only promote respect but also emotional control among students. Through anecdotes and real-life examples, we shed light on the challenges teachers confront, from time constraints to the often delicate balancing act of prioritizing behavioral discussions over academic instruction. Join us as we advocate for the vital role of educators in forming solid, empathetic connections with their students, laying the groundwork for a more secure, understanding, and ultimately more productive educational journey. This episode is a rallying cry for all invested in the future of our schools to consider the profound impact that a restorative approach to discipline can have on our students and the entire school community.
Welcome back, dear listeners to Middle School Life, the podcast. We hope your holiday season was filled with joy, laughter and some much deserved self care. As we return from our brief hiatus, we are eager to embark on a new chapter with you that builds off of our discipline series, starting with the topic restorative justice and logical consequences in middle school. So, whether you're a teacher, student or parent, join us as we delve into the world of restorative justice, exploring its impact on disciplinary actions, logical consequences and the overall well being of our middle schoolers. And let's make this return after our holiday self care hiatus one to remember.
Speaker 2:It's good to finally see you again. Haven't seen you in a while.
Speaker 1:It's good to see you too. I feel like it has been literally forever.
Speaker 2:It has been forever, so it's good to be back recording and back to get some more episodes recorded.
Speaker 1:So it feels good to be able to hear our voices, and stereo, again.
Speaker 2:It does. So I wanted to say thank you to everybody for the comments and reaching out. During the time we took some time off, kind of step away, be with our families and spend some time with friends, Just reset and refocus. So thank you for listening again and sticking with us through that. We did start a series discussing discipline. In the last episode we had our amazing friend Brittany Dean with us.
Speaker 1:That was magical.
Speaker 2:She was amazing, she was so good.
Speaker 2:She's going to take our jobs from us for sure, and so we just want to build on that conversation we had with her, especially when we're talking about students with trauma and how we can best help them.
Speaker 2:So I can start briefly go over what I think restorative practices look like. Obviously, restorative practices became more popular and prominent about 10 to 15 years ago and it's this philosophy in education that views conflicts and misbehaviors as opportunities for learning and growth rather than mere violations, and it emphasizes dialogue, understanding, collaboration among all parties involved. Obviously, we all know, if you've been in schools for any time, that schools have historically used suspensions and expulsions with the intent of deferring student misbehavior and protecting other students from that misbehavior, and I don't think that those policies were ill intended. But we know now how harmful those policies, especially suspensions and expulsions, can be, how harmful they can be on students. There's just vast amounts of research that shows that punitive policies can actually lead to an increase in the misbehavior, but it also increases the risk of dropping out, challenges with mental health and unfortunately, it can also lead to increased risks and rates of juvenile and adult incarceration. So that's where we need to change our focus a little bit.
Speaker 1:Absolutely and logically. It makes sense, especially looking back at our episode with that trauma-informed care. A lot of those times and something Brittany specifically was talking about is there's a reason for those behaviors. They're asking for help or they're trying to get what they want but they're not sure how to healthily communicate that. They haven't been modeled good communication or they haven't been maybe given those skills yet. And even though you have middle schoolers who look like they're in big kid bodies and that sometimes adults assume like oh, they should understand. Maybe they haven't been taught what you're supposed to do when X, y or Z happens. So sometimes that can be very difficult.
Speaker 1:And when you take these kids that have trauma or unhealthy home lives or they're already on that edge of I don't really want to go to school. School is not for me. What's the point in you discipline them by giving them days out of school and being home? Then they're thinking some kids are thinking that's a reward. Now I get to stay home and play my video games all day while my mom's working her two jobs and I don't have to worry about. I don't have to worry about dealing with my teachers telling me what to do.
Speaker 1:They don't like that structure at first, especially if it's punitive or if they're not, if they're not building relationships with those teachers or they're not building relationships with oh, when I do this, then this happens, and so that restorative justice piece is supposed to bring in. How can we not punitively punish all the time for smaller infractions or for infractions that? What's the logical consequence If, if Johnny spills somebody's milk, then he should go clean up the milk. If so and so throws food, you should sweep the whole cafeteria. Like, how do we give consequences that make sense, that help the kids learn from it? Right?
Speaker 2:And I think we also have to be mindful of the fact that the punitive policies truly impact students of color and students with disabilities more than anybody.
Speaker 2:There was a statistic I found that said the black students are nearly four times more likely to be suspended Then their white peers who committed the same misbehavior or same infraction. And that goes to the same with students with disabilities. And I know we love our middle schoolers, but this is such a tough age and middle school students this age group is also disproportionately suspended more than elementary and high school students. So one of the research articles I found said that 1.5% of elementary students have been suspended, and this is out of school suspension. 1.5% 3.5% of high schoolers have been suspended. Over 5% of middle school students have been suspended. So, and a lot of that is the transition.
Speaker 1:They're not getting.
Speaker 2:If you've got a fifth grader coming into sixth grade, we, we being teachers, sometimes just assume they can just roll with it. Yeah, just come in from their one teacher, maybe two teachers they had an elementary other than their specials and then seamlessly change six classes with six different teachers through a huge campus, perhaps dealing with many more students, and we expect them, without much support, to just do it. So you, you will see misbehavior if you don't have the proper support set up. So that's that's statistic. Is not that surprising to me?
Speaker 1:No, it really isn't. And there's this huge part of the expectations I feel like we have, especially like seventh, eighth graders, when they're going into middle school and they start growing and they're going through puberty, of just these expectations that, oh, you know better, you know the rules, you know you shouldn't have gotten up and gone to the restroom without permission, you know you shouldn't have talked out in class. And there's another part of that impulse control in middle schoolers, or lack thereof. So when you pair that along with that structure and that change of middle school, you can get a lot of funky behaviors, because you have students doing things without thinking or doing things for the reaction of their peers. So middle school is also a time where they're really socially trying to figure out where they fit in, where do I belong, learning the difference between fitting in and belonging. And there's this large need, I feel like from what I've learned from middle schoolers, of that feeling I want to be accepted and I want to be welcomed, but they're trying more to fit in rather than to belong, which I think is where a lot of behaviors come from.
Speaker 1:When I'm talking to kids in my office and I'm trying to get to the root cause or trying to get them to get to the root cause of what that behavior was. A lot of the times it's oh, I was trying to fit in, I was trying to make so and so laugh because I like them. And it's a lot of the times they're not thinking logically. And when we give them consequences as an okay, so and so through a pencil and hit Sally in the back of the head now you're going to be out of school suspension for one day what are they really learning from that? And if it is something larger where there does need to be an out of school suspension because it is like a fight or something, if they just go out for one or two days and they come right back and there's nothing else done, how are we expecting them to know better or to do different or to learn and grow from it? Right, that it doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 2:Right, and I think schools started to get on board with restorative justice practices and being more positively proactive with discipline before COVID. And then COVID happened and I think obviously students return to campus with higher rates of anxiety and trauma really that maybe we're not prepared to deal with completely. Yeah Right, and I think that because of that you've got these kids that are showing up with these stressors and anxiety and trauma that leads to even more aggressive behavior that I think schools are now returning back to not necessarily zero tolerance. The school I'm at hasn't gone so far as to zero tolerance, but less tolerance.
Speaker 2:But we're certainly nowhere near practicing restorative justice. Nowhere near that, and I think because, in order to do that, you have to start the conversations about just where to begin. Teachers are frustrated.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Obviously, we're halfway through the year.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:As a teacher, I know I'm incredibly frustrated with the constant horseplay, the constant running, constant jumping on each other, where we're seeing nothing being done about that right, our perception yeah, nothing's being done.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and I think that there's a really important part, especially when you're talking about restorative practices, is that timeliness of handling situations to where the student isn't so far removed from the behavior that then having a logical consequence or having restorative practice doesn't seem as impactful. And I do personally believe very strongly in timing meaning a lot. So I know, especially in schools where there's more incidents, it's really hard to handle a referral within 24 hours, like depending on how many you have or what kind of staff you have. But I think that it's also crucial to be able to identify that behavior. Or if you see the horse playing happening right in that moment, okay, what is our, what is the step I need to take? And I think sometimes you have veteran teachers who have been around long enough, they've been trained in a lot of different strategies and they can handle that situation in the moment.
Speaker 1:But there's not really a if this, then when, type of playbook, if you will, on student behaviors and student consequences. I bet if I asked any teacher on your campus or on my campus what are your top four behavior concerns, they all would start naming off very similar ones. And if I had to take a guess of what this survey would say. Survey says disruptive behavior, horse play, tardiness, disrespect, disrespect. So If we know those are some the four top main concerns, what are some practical steps that we should take when we see one of those four things occur? Because you only have so many administrators in one building, you only have so many disciplinaries in one building. So how do you build consensus amongst the staff to say, okay, when this happens, then this should occur.
Speaker 2:Well, and I think, in order to do that, we have to stop being reactive to everything. And that's where, if we're falling back to somewhat of a zero tolerance policy, which I can see happening, instead of pushing forward restorative practices, it typically, as teachers, as schools, we see a problem, you fix it and you. This can't be looked at that way, right? The first question should not be all right. What kind of PD do we need? Can we fit this into our summer schedule? It can't be that it's got to start with. How can we center those kids who have the biggest needs and making sure that those kids needs not only they're being met, but their voices are being heard as well.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and I love that you just said all of that, because it's exactly where I was building off of. There's not a one size fits all for every issue and every kid is not going to respond the same to the same type of consequence. So it's it comes back to I know we have mentioned this in every single episode the relationships built with the kids as adults. Being that model of I can control my emotions and I can control my feelings and I'm a safe space right now and I'm talking to you and I'm not happy with what you just did, but I'm also here to help you, and that is why those relationships are so crucial.
Speaker 1:And I think another thing is, sometimes people hear that word restorative practices or restorative justice and they think, oh, that's just a conversation, it's an easy way out, there's no consequences when it comes to that, and I think that all comes down to what. What is that purpose of restorative justice? Or what are you really meaning by that? And I know you've touched on it, but it's really to help the students become aware of the impact of their behavior on others or on the runnings of what's happening. It's about understanding that they have an obligation to take responsibility for their actions, and it's about taking steps, them taking steps towards making things right.
Speaker 2:It's not intended to be a fix.
Speaker 1:You know this isn't intended to fix misbehavior you can't and you also can't just fix things over, and I thought there's a lot of things that are so deep and there's so many parts to them that it's not a one size fits all. It's not. Oh, you called so and so fat, so we're going to have you write an apology letter. The end Right, it's about you. It's about you. We maybe we need some counseling. We need to make sure that other girl gets counseling.
Speaker 1:We need to make sure you understand how your words impact others. I need you to understand that when you do that, it makes them feel this way. Can you think of a time that you have felt like that before? What did you like when you felt like that? Creating and showing them instances of empathy is especially important, because I know we've beaten COVID like a dead horse over the past couple of years and nobody really likes bringing it back up. But if you think about there wasn't a lot of social interactions and so I feel like personally, I have seen a decrease in some of the empathy and the social interactions and the impact that that has had on education in students Socializing in an educational setting are very vast. And so it starts with the conversation. It starts with asking the right questions after you have that relationship with a student, but it's then having consequences that are not punitive but that help them to learn and grow and realize what impact they had with their actions.
Speaker 2:Right, and restorative practices or restorative justice does not mean that the students are exempt from consequences. I mean, if you get into a fight, obviously there's got to be more consequences that could justify suspension. You know, just putting that out, there is an example. But disrespect, horse play there's got to be better solutions. Absolutely. It is constant, no matter who's saying it, from teachers to administrators to stop the horse play, whatever. But we're not teaching them, them being the students. I don't think. What does it look like if you?
Speaker 2:don't horse play Right, but we're not teaching them how it makes other students feel, how it could hurt other kids.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and that's our job as the adults is to teach them. Okay, let's say you are friends, and a lot of the times I'll get this from kids is like, oh, it's fine, they're fine with it, they're okay if I push them, they're okay if I jump on their back, like we're friends. And it's teaching them that like, okay, I'm glad you're okay with it, but A what could happen if so and so falls back and hits their head? I feel like one of those primary examples I use all the time with my kids and they look at me with I have five eyes like they've never heard it before. It just takes one misstep, it just takes one miss hit to the head to be paralyzed or worse. And it's teaching them that sometimes they think it's funny and it's all a joke, but that serious things can happen.
Speaker 1:And sometimes those conversations can be hard to have because you don't want to, you know, lower the mood. But it's super important for kids to know like, if you do that and then this happens, then how would you feel? Because it very well could have. They could have fell and sprained an ankle, they could have hit their head and had to get stitches. If you just want to use minor examples and it's using different questions when you're talking to the kids to try to respond to their challenging behavior, and a lot of the times, the hardest part with middle schoolers is getting them to identify what they did and why they shouldn't have done it.
Speaker 1:And it takes digging, digging and digging and digging. But if we make the time, we find the time. We stop finding excuses and not have the time and we ask them questions. What happened? What were you thinking when that happened? Have you thought about it since? Have you think about how it has affected other people? If you don't think that what you did was wrong, why do you think other people are upset with you because of what happened? Why do you think they feel this way? Why do you think like it's probing those questions? And then a big part of that is, especially if it's incident where they did wrong or they did harm to somebody else, what impact do you think that incident had on them? What has been the hardest thing for you since that happened? Or have you thought about how that impacted that other student? And what do you? This is my favorite question.
Speaker 1:I use this with my kids Anytime I'm dealing with them or giving them any type of a consequence, after we're talking or while we're talking, and it doesn't mean that's what I'm going to do as the adult who's responsible for handling the discipline of the incident, it's.
Speaker 1:What do you think the consequences should be? And you have two very different types of middle schoolers, in my opinion. You have the ones who think, oh, I should just have one day of lunch detention because it really wasn't that bad and I'm going to do this, this and this to make it right. And then you have the other kids who are like I should get, I should have, I should be expelled, like I should have never done that. And it's getting them to think about well, what do you think should happen because you did this? Do you think that that's okay to just do and not have any consequences? How would you feel like if that happened to you? And building that in the restorative practices is so crucial because it's teaching them oh, my actions had larger impacts than just on me, me, me, because the middle schoolers also are very me, me, me.
Speaker 1:I mean humans in general can be maybe not so altruistic, but especially in middle school, because they don't have the same type of worldly perspectives as you do as you mature and get older.
Speaker 2:And to build these restorative practices you have to build your community. So the whole school's got to be part of this and again it gets back to it can't come down to your first question about PD and who's gonna lead your PD and do you have time for summer? It's got to be the entire staff, the entire school, but also parents. It's gotta be a community focus. It really does in order for it to work, and we're. I can't speak for all schools, but I know a lot of schools are missing the student voice and the parent voice and you have to build that capacity. So it's gotta be community first. I did a research study last year. I did survey teachers and one of the things that I found it wasn't a shock, but the data just kind of verified it was teachers are really wanting something like this, but they don't feel that it's consistent and supportive. They don't feel like admin supports it or supports them. So we're missing that piece.
Speaker 1:One thing that really hit me, and I'm not even gonna lie where I found this, because we're all human and we all do creative research in some ways. I was on Pinterest and I was on there and A we all know these phones listen to you so stuff starts popping up that I've been talking about that. I know I have not Googled in any way, but I was having a conversation about logical consequences and what that looks like, and there was actually this post posted by the messy little classroom. I don't know if it has an accent or not, but when I say it in my head it does, and it talks about logical consequences in the classroom and it just makes so much sense. So, basically, this graphic that I ran across talks about how logical consequences are directly related to the students behaviors. Using them over punishment maintains respect for the student rather than relying on shaming them, and it teaches them regulation and mindfulness of their behaviors. Because it has that in time. I did this, now I have to do this, and here are some of the examples which I feel like. Maybe this came from an elementary school, but it definitely could relate both ways, and when I was talking earlier about how, if this happens, then we do this thinking of things in these type of terms, where we have some of those broad ideas of oh, if I'm a brand new teacher and I'm a first year teacher, I could look at this chart.
Speaker 1:So if a kid is running in the building now, they have to stop, walk back, come back into the classroom calmly. I know for a fact when I was in school that happened. I would have to walk and come back. I can tell you that, even as the assistant principal, sometimes in school kids running, I go. Hey, stop running, I go about my day. Right the other day I just happened to remember that I read this cute little thing on Pinterest and a kid was running to try to get a candy cane, graham. And I said, hey, stop, walk back to your seat, walk up here. When you run, it's not safe and you could have run into somebody and that would hurt them. Yes, ma'am is Hammond walks back, walks to get the candy King Graham.
Speaker 1:Now, it's not that I just shouted at him stop running, we don't run, it's against the student code of conduct. I told him to Correct the behavior. He corrected the behavior. Then I told him why I asked him to correct it and he's gonna remember that the next time Hopefully he goes to run. So it's all about making those connections.
Speaker 1:Other examples they have on here if you're not using the classroom materials correctly, like kids popping buttons off calculators what is it with middle schoolers pumping buttons off of calculators? I don't know, but I'm just saying if it's a material like play dough or what pencils and they're breaking them, okay, now you don't get to use those materials. If you are disrupting the teacher or you're disrupting the instruction, then you are gonna get a seat change and you're gonna have a conversation about why we shouldn't do that. And I think a lot of the times if you have a relationship with a student and you Maybe move their seat and then you have a conversation with them. When you talk over me when I'm trying to teach, it's really frustrating because I'm not able to finish what I need to do to be able to teach you and it's also taking the learning away From all these other students.
Speaker 2:So I really need you to not do that again and sharing the why with the kids well, and that's the piece that I think is missing To these restorative practices is explaining the way the behavior is impacting others.
Speaker 1:And I think that comes from this huge piece of. I know for a fact when I was a kid you don't questions adults and adults don't need to explain themselves to you, and that is a deep-rooted feeling that is within society and within our culture, that there is no reason for adults to explain themselves to you. You should just listen to adults, and that's the way I was raised. I know that's the way a lot of other people were raised and I do. I understand there should be a level of respect for adults, but there is also this huge piece of when you share with them the why they understand it better and they can more, they will will be more likely to correct that behavior. And another piece building off of what you were speaking about earlier is when you model for kids and this is stuck in elementary world, but there is definitely a place for it in the middle school when you model for them yes, this is what the behavior looks like. No, this is not what it looks like and how it has an impact.
Speaker 1:So, for example, at our school we were utilizing our pbis pillars and we had model videos of what that does look like and what that doesn't look like, and we had kids act them out and then we would show the example and non example on our news show to make those connections. So, for example, we had two kids who were Basically they were re-enacting that. They were like singing in chorus to try to get a part. And you had kids like talking over them and laughing and how that impacted them, because now they can't focus Versus when they were sitting and they were very still and they were quiet and they were respecting them and how does that look?
Speaker 1:And then making that connection even in middle schoolers heads of what does it look like, what does it not look like and re-teaching them behaviors and appropriate ways to handle situations and giving them the tools to understand. Oh, that made her feel like this. Because, and having those conversations and even when you can have those students talk to the people who they have said those things to and actually hear from their own mouths, which has to be done very delicately you would have to get permission from both sides but having them look at how you made them feel was it worth it. I don't care what she said about your cat like as an administrator.
Speaker 2:I know how Is a teacher my my biggest barrier to all of this this time as an administrator. How do you, how do you suggest that we Go about that, taking the time to talk to these kids? I can't go to my, my school counselor, for everything. Like these two kids are one made the other one upset. How do you do that?
Speaker 1:I. I would say the biggest part is A. If you're a teacher and you are running out of time and you have tried having conversations with your kids but you're in the middle of trying to also teach them the civic standards that they have to have for the standardized test, I would say utilize your guidance counselor, utilize your administrator, because I also find that one of the things I do Some I have done in the past is be like, oh, all gets that kid eventually, but if, if we don't prioritize those small conversations over other things, it it's going to turn into a big mess. So I would hope you would have an, a supportive administrator that would say hey, okay, this kid has Isn't following the directions, they're doing this and this. I'm gonna make the time as the administrator so, like I set a block in the morning where I'm Literally utilizing it to have conversation with students who have my time, it gets to me it's repeated behavior. I would say as a teacher I don't know if this is a popular opinion in the admin world, but I would say, even if it cuts into the curriculum, taking the time to have those conversations, like maybe the last 10, 15 minutes, your kids are doing an exit ticket. Take the time just to have that conversation with the student on the side, like, hey, when you did this, this is really how it impacted the classroom.
Speaker 1:Um, I would say, talk to your guidance counselor and your administrator if you are really struggling to find times. And there's also ways where we could find, hey, you need some more time to do your planning, or do something else. Like I feel like there's ways we can help that. But at the end of the day, it's gonna be you have to give and take, because there is not an easy solution. There is not, as an administrator can't say oh you know what, forget all of the curriculum and the scope and sequence, just spend the whole time teaching kids, those how to manage their expectations.
Speaker 1:So I do think that having those example not examples on the news could be helpful. But when you're talking about how do we address specific students in our classrooms when these situations are happening, sometimes they might have to wait till the end of class, sometimes you might have to talk to that student tomorrow, but when you prioritize that relationship and you find ways to get creative and find time where you can talk to those students and you can tell them how what they did impacted you and how their behavior impacted others. You will see a difference and in the long run, I think that it's gonna give you more time to teach Well that's it.
Speaker 2:Something's gotta give. Yeah, it's give and take. You have to. In the end, I think it's it's more beneficial, it's a more, it's a better use of time than bell to bell constant instruction.
Speaker 1:Yeah, go, go, go go.
Speaker 2:But because that's serving. It's not serving the students that way. And I think we're sort of practices when they're done right, there's so many benefits to this and that there is plenty of evidence that when it's done right, you will see a decrease in the racial discipline gaps and it's going to improve academic achievement, attendance and graduation rates. And that's what it's about is. Is that's what we're going for?
Speaker 1:Absolutely, I agree, and I would also say that, going back to your question, I was really like thinking about it is I would guarantee that if we truly found a way to use these logical consequences and restorative justice practices correctly in the classroom, that, while it may eat up some of your time in the beginning, that it would be worth it tenfold towards the end of the year, towards the middle of the year, because you've already been using those practices and you have a really good handle on some of those behaviors or those students who maybe have extra needs. That it's going to give you that time back and more once the students start to understand oh, if I do this, then this is going to happen and she's going to have a conversation with me and then I'm going to have to do this Like I truly believe that it will give you that time back eventually, even if it's going to eat some time up in the beginning, right, but we need administrators to understand that One million percent.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And it's got to be. Not only administrators have to understand it. But it cannot be a restorative justice and restorative practices cannot be a one-size-fits-all. What my the needs at my school my school are so vastly different from the needs at your school. Absolutely and it's got to be that community school focused. Every school has its own, has its own desperate and dire needs and it needs to be addressed on that level.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, jen. I just want to thank you so much for everything you do for our podcast and for coming with such fresh perspectives and doing the research, and I appreciate you.
Speaker 2:Thank you for always being here. You are my, my ray of sunshine and my positive, my positive little vibe. So what's up next?
Speaker 1:Coming at you soon fresh off the middle school life podcast playlist. We will be joining you guys again soon and timely with our next episode. New Year, new Goals. How can student goal setting affect their performance and build confidence within the middle school student?
Speaker 2:Yep, and are we going to discuss some teacher goals as well? Oh, absolutely, discuss it just for the students as they get ready to come upon yet another testing season for some master two. I think it'll be a combination.
Speaker 1:Okay, as usual, when we get together, I think whatever we spitfire will come out and it'll be fun.
Speaker 2:Sounds good to me. Thank you again, everybody for continuing to be on this journey with us. It means a lot and Tori and I have some, some big goals for this podcast and the middle school life brand in general for 2024. But again, it's with heartfelt thanks that we thank you for your support.
Speaker 1:Thank you guys so much for joining us. We so appreciate you listening and joining in. If you haven't done so already, make sure to check out episodes one through five that are now found anywhere. You find podcasts, especially on Spotify and Apple music. We're excited to rekindle our conversations and continue this journey together on middle school life.
