Middle School Life
Welcome to Middle School Life, where innovation meets education! Join us as we explore the latest trends, share inspiring ideas, and discuss strategies to create an enriching middle school experience for all.
In each episode, your hosts, Assistant Principal Victoria Hammond and middle school teacher Dr. Jennifer Erdmann, will bring their wealth of knowledge and passion for education to the forefront.
Middle School Life
Unmasking Emotional Realities: Does Toxic Positivity Exist in Education?
Is the quest for a perpetually positive classroom overshadowing the real emotional needs of educators and students? Join us as we celebrate our 10th podcast episode and delve into the nuanced world of toxic positivity in education. In a special milestone episode, we raise our glasses to an incredible 500 downloads and share the candid conversations we've had. Together, we unravel the unintended consequences of a culture that prioritizes a 'positive at all costs' mentality, often at the expense of genuine emotional well-being.
Genuine positivity isn't about ignoring the tough times or papering over the cracks with a smile; it's about embracing the full range of human experience, and that's what we're advocating for in this thought-provoking discussion. We take a closer look at how forced cheerfulness in our schools can mute the voices that wish to authentically inspire and support our youth. Through our engaging and, at times, challenging dialogues, we underscore the imperative of balancing encouragement with the acknowledgment of struggle, fostering an environment where true resilience can flourish. Don't miss this reflective episode where we not only dissect the complexities of toxic positivity but also honor the authentic connections that have made our podcast community flourish—complete with a hint at a surprise giveaway for our dedicated listeners!
Welcome back to another episode of middle school life, the podcast where your hosts Dr Jennifer Udman or Jess Chen, jess Chen and me, tori, and we are thrilled to have you on what is our 10th episode.
Speaker 2:I'm so happy about that. I know we we kind of have been planning this for a long time, but we're already at episode 10.
Speaker 1:That's crazy to me that we're on episode 10 because we talked about it for so long, just like doing a podcast, that for a long time I just felt like that's a thought. And now that we're recording episode 10, like it's not that it's not that deep as the middle schoolers would say, it's not that deep, like it really like, once you get to it and get working on it, like we can have conversations that we normally would have and we can share them with the world. Do they want to hear them? I don't know World let us know, but I think they might, because we have reached a huge milestone of 500 downloads.
Speaker 2:Yeah, which is actually I'm pretty proud of that. I might sound it might sound, um, not as impressive to others, but I think, just as this baby podcast is getting off the ground, I think we're we're in pretty good shape.
Speaker 1:I thought it was just going to be our moms, yeah, me too. But 500 is impressive. So we could not be more thankful for our incredible listeners and we are so enthusiastic. We love the feedback you've been giving us on Facebook, the comments, the middle school lingo you have been sharing with us is so relatable.
Speaker 2:That too, cause we've got a couple of good ones we need to talk about.
Speaker 1:So now let's talk for a second about what we're going to talk about in these next episodes, because I feel like once we get into today's episode topic, there's not going to be much of us reflecting back on what we want to want to want to be able to share with our listeners.
Speaker 1:So just to give you guys some idea of what we're going to be talking about, next we're going into really looking at the perspectives and the alignment between um. We're going to have four different guests. We're going to have a teacher and assistant principal, a principal and a district employee and we're going to kind of ask them a couple of questions and we're going to look at kind of like, where do the, where do those perspectives differ and how are they the same? And like, how can we all work together to create the most powerful experience for our students to become the most successful? So now that we have established that I'm not delaying the inevitable here, but let's get to today's episode on toxic positivity. What does it mean? Is it real or is it just another buzzword? Well, get ready to buckle up and hear some differing perspectives as we delve into the debate and as the usual teachers.
Speaker 2:First, yeah, we've been excited about this one, maybe dragged our feet a little bit because, um, tori and I greatly differ on this and we've I think we've might've mentioned it once or twice in a previous episode that this was coming. So I will go ahead and start, and what I see is is this term toxic positivity? It's, it's a term that has gained prominence in recent years, and you and I were talking, and I think it's what did you? What year? Did you tell me 2011?
Speaker 1:2011,. That's really not that long ago, it's not that long ago.
Speaker 2:In it I refers to the cultural expectation to maintain a positive mindset at all times, dismissing or invalidating any form of negative emotions. So today we're going to explore how this phenomenon manifests itself in the educational setting and its potential detrimental effects on the overall mental health of students and teachers. And I think for this episode though in our limited time today I'm I'm just going to mainly focus on the teacher part of it. The students are also greatly impacted by toxic positivity, but that's for later episode, when we have our guests on. I think toxic positivity in schools often arises from well-intentioned efforts to create a positive and supportive atmosphere. I believe it becomes problematic when there's an over emphasis on maintaining a cheerful facade, ignoring or, like I said, dismissing those negative emotions, and this can lead to teachers feeling invalidated and hesitant to express their true feelings, potentially impacting their mental health. So I think that there's this, maybe an unwritten rule, that we as educators, and maybe specifically teachers, have to be upbeat and positive, even when faced with challenges, and I think that, while the intention is to create a positive learning environment, it sometimes makes teachers feel like they can't talk about their own struggles. There was a Harvard psychologist named Susan David. That was on Brene Brown's podcast a few years ago and she said that when we dismiss negative thoughts and emotions to solely focus on positive ones, we're not living in the world as it is, but rather in the world as they wish it would be. And I'm going to give some examples of toxic positivity in a minute. But I think when we are living in toxic positivity in that environment, what people are really saying is that my comfort is more important than your reality, and I think that that's so powerful and that's just again that kind of really hit home for me. So there was some research that indicates that a lack of acknowledgement of negative emotions can contribute to increased stress and anxiety. And I am reminded of an episode we did with our favorite mental health counselor, brittany Dean Woop, woop, yep. I think we were both kind of taken aback when she said that 77% of teachers are diagnosed depressed, and I can't help but think that there is a link somewhere to toxic positivity. So here's the thing You're a super positive person, which everybody loves. I'm not a negative person, but I think I'm more of a realist, and because I certainly do believe in positivity and the power of that.
Speaker 2:But there are some phrases that could be labeled as toxic positivity, though they're well-intentioned. I'm going to give a few examples of those. The first one is we are a family, and I'll say this phrase may be used appropriately. This can be used appropriately to remind the staff of a supportive school culture, but it can also be used to persuade teachers to commit to unfair or unreasonable workloads, guilting teachers into doing unfair expectations, and at my school we use this phrase often, but it's genuinely sincere. I don't feel that this is something that is toxically positive, because I do feel that we have a really close staff, that we do believe that. Another example that I think is toxic positivity is we do what's best for kids, or kids come first, and I think that this is actually insulting to teachers, because, of course, we want to do what's best for kids. It shouldn't come at the expense of your own detriment, though. Remember your why.
Speaker 2:If you could see the face she is making right now, and I don't disagree with this in that, of course, we should reflect and remember why, but the term is often weaponized, like if you are having a bad day, just remember your why, right, that's dismissing my feelings as I'm having a bad day. Or these kids are being totally off the chain today. Remember your why. And my least favorite slogan of all time and I wish if I see it posted, I've seen people wear t-shirts we are in it for the outcome, not the income. Does anybody do this job for the income?
Speaker 1:No, that's the only reason I signed up. Okay Jokes.
Speaker 2:And in full transparency. If I see this, I'm immediately judging and I don't take you seriously Instantly. Zero stars, zero, because, honestly, who in the world does this job for the money? Nobody, nobody. So I think it's essential for schools to foster a culture of open communication. Encouraging students and teachers to express their authentic feelings without fear of judgment is a crucial step, and I think that if we can additionally provide mental health resources and training for educators can help create a more supportive environment.
Speaker 1:So I hear what you're saying. I do not disagree with what you just said. I strongly disagree with the buzzword toxic positivity. I feel like that those things that you're saying and the way they're being used or when they're being used as air quote toxically positive, that they're really just somebody who is inauthentically, inauthentically trying to give you feedback, to appease you which goes back to when we were talking about that book, radical Candor. What I specifically think of is that's more of manipulative insincerity. So I feel like that manipulative insincerity is dangerous and we talked about that and I expressed that in that episode that when you're not giving feedback with that authenticity behind it or you're not being genuine, then I understand. When your feelings aren't being validated, then that's not going to feel good and everything you just described in there I agree with.
Speaker 1:I disagree with the term toxic positivity, because what I believe that buzzword does is it kind of puts this negative light on positivity and I feel like there's other words for what these things are that don't have to try to like shed a negative light on what positivity is. And where I really have the issue, I guess, is it's kind of like I find it to be an oxymoron, like it, can something be positively negative? And when I think of it, I guess I and at the end of the day, at the end of this podcast, after we both go through these debates what we name it is really irrelevant. When I came to do this research and we've talked about this several times and I'm feeling very passionate about it, I think for other reasons than Jen and I I don't disagree with what she's saying. I disagree with the terminology, so it's really just comes down to the semantics, and I really think that what it is is that I just truly feel like whatever you scan the world for, you're going to find and I feel like when you the buzzword toxic positivity came out in 2011, that there's already so many people in the world that have a negative mindset or struggle to look at the positive side of things.
Speaker 1:And I think that when you put a word like toxic, like so think about the other time we use the word toxic, when we're talking about toxic relationships, when we're talking about narcissists, when we're talking about people who are put in relationships or put in situations that are so tumultuous for them that when they even think of that person, it incites negative feelings. And I feel like, when you put a word like toxic or you think of that like the yellow barrels with this giant green neon deadly fluid in it, when you, when I think of the word toxic, I am thinking like, wow, that's absolutely terrible. And then you put it next to a word that is meant to be the opposite of that. It's meant to be us looking, you know, for good in the world, or us having an optimistic view, or us being able to spread joy, or wow, however you want to think about that, having a growth mindset, which I think, if you use that in the wrong way, also could lead to your point of view.
Speaker 1:I hear that, but if you're using it, if you're using that word in another way, like genuine positivity does have health benefits, I just strongly feel like when you're using the word toxic in front of the word positive, it just it invokes these more negative feelings towards the thought of people who are positive in general, towards things that are positive in general, and I think that it starts to take away from the true meaning of the word. And I understand that it might not be that deep brah, but I feel like there just is something to that Like. I feel like it's an oxymoron. I feel like we could explain it better. I feel like the buzzword itself, just it brings more of a negative light towards positivity in general, and that there are authentic, genuinely positive things out there, and trying to like make something good, bad is how it makes me feel.
Speaker 2:Well, and I think we're both coming at this from our personality perspectives too, because I see toxic positivity as a barrier to having real conversations for change, because, in my view, to have real sustainable change, you have to have some sort of conflict, and I think that if you don't, then if you're just wrapped up in all these you know know-your-why and all this other nonsense, then we're not getting to the heart of the matter. We're in such dire straits really in a lot of our schools and I think, because it's almost frowned upon to talk about the real problems of well, you know, we don't want to talk about that then I think that's when it lends itself to becoming toxic.
Speaker 1:Right, and I think even some of those terms you just said just like live, love, laugh, positive vibes, only know-your-why when those things are given out in the wrong context, they can be detrimental. And it goes back to when we were talking about fierce conversations and having that accountability and that radical candor piece. Like, everything you just said is 100% true and I think, when we look at it, we really do have to be real. And another way I still can't call it toxic positivity, but this manipulative insincerity can really be a disservice not only to teachers but also to students. And I got permission from one of my phenomenal teachers, miss Stephanie Secord. Her and I were having a conversation in the lunchroom while I was waiting for the four buses that are perpetually late.
Speaker 1:That is literally the words that were going to come out of my mouth, but you said it, I didn't, and we were talking a little bit and I was talking about what our next podcast was on and she really had a point that I thought really kind of went more with what you had to say. But I agree with everything she said and she said well, I do think that toxic positivity is a thing and she goes. But I also think that it might just be from lack of knowledge or people just being new to professions, and she goes. But I think an example could be when you're a new teacher and you see how hard your kids are working like, let's say, for example, they're all working on a project and you see that these kids are putting their blood, sweat, tears into making this project, they turn it in. They're looking at you, dr Erdman, dr Erdman, dr Erdman how do I do on a project? How do I do on my project? And they did good and so, and you know, they worked really hard. So they get an A for effort. Is that really preparing them? No, for that next level. So is your A.
Speaker 1:You're a new teacher, you're building a relationship with these kids, you're. You're feeling like, oh, I don't want to hurt their feelings Using that which I still believe is that base either. In this case, it's really just that, hey, I didn't know any better, they did work really hard. Is making those types of mistakes then preparing them for their future or getting them what they need to be the most successful versions of themselves? No, but once you knew know better, do you do better?
Speaker 1:Right, and that was an example she shared with me that I was like you know what? That's a really, really great example, to put it back into this educational lens is I 100% agree with that? I also 100% agree with, at least from the lens I'm thinking of. It is when, if we teach kids how to scan the world for good, if we teach kids the positives of positive attitude and positive outlooks and actual growth mindsets but looking at it from teaching them those skill sets, I think that we can help create healthier versions of themselves, just like when we were meeting with Brittany Dean, like Getting them that resilience, teaching them those different things, but also teaching them it's okay to not be positive.
Speaker 2:I agree with that sentiment, okay, and you know, one million percent. I think that we need to make sure that they understand that same with teachers. If teachers having is experiencing burnout and and they share their feelings with with us or with a colleague, and the toxic positivity response to that, I think, is, you know, if you remind them that teaching such a rewarding profession and Focus on the impact you're making rather than dwelling on the challenges, that's being toxically positive.
Speaker 1:That's denial.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that too. There's just so many, so many examples.
Speaker 1:I do agree and I think that, as much as I feel like when I started looking into this and digging into the research, I thought it was gonna be more of a debate because, you know, you're like there definitely is toxic positivity and I'm like, no, there isn't toxic positivity the more I researched it and the more I read articles because I didn't just look at, you know, my side articles, like I looked at articles for both sides. The buzzword was created in 2011, which I thought was gonna be a really strong counterpoint for me, like it just was invented. It didn't even exist before 2011. But if you really look at the definition of what the buzzword is, it really is an expression of Denial and authenticity. But the word itself and what affects People who are using this do like that's very valid. Like I, I cannot disagree with what you're saying.
Speaker 2:I just agree with you what you're.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just simply disagree with the word because I feel like it brings negativity to positivity and I Find that like disheartening, probably just because of the way I view the world. But I also think that the point it's trying to make is when you're in genuine, when you're giving people compliments and you're not addressing real issues, when you're having people who come to you and are like man, I had such a bad day, but tomorrow will be better. Every day is great. At least you're alive.
Speaker 1:What that is is it's dismissive and it's that lack of empathy and what's gonna happen is a you wouldn't have a lot of friends, because people need people who are gonna Listen to them and be with them and be able to support them when they're having bad days. And let's say like what? Like oh, hey, I had a bad day. A real, a real good friend would be. Like what happened? Like why do you feel like that? Oh, my gosh, I'm so sorry, that really sucks. Like maybe they were late and say I remember a time I felt like that. But what is not helpful is saying, oh, tomorrow will be better. People have it worse than you, you don't have anything to complain about. Like you have a roof over your head, you have food in your fridge, and while all those things are true and they are positives, that doesn't mean that it's not okay, right to not be okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah and I feel like both of us are kind of looking at the same thing. So finding ways to Bring joy into your life and be optimistic and look on the bright side when you can, when you're not in a rut per se, can be very helpful, and there are tons of articles out there on the power of positivity, but genuine positivity that comes from within you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's there. Joy is there.
Speaker 1:One of the other points I was gonna make. I grabbed the wrong book but it was in that school culture book that we visited Earlier in this season of middle school life. The podcast was. There was another part when we were looking back at that school culture and while I feel I feel most passionate about the fact that toxic positivity is an oxymoron, but it also paints this negative light on positivity and there are a lot of positive Think about some positive new teachers, really excited. But when you have these people who are so full of life and so excited and so positive and so ready to win, and you have the people who have just been kind of beat down by like some of the toxic positivity but really what it does is when people start saying the word around the school, even like oh, that's toxically positive, I feel like it kind of can be it dims the light of those light bringers who bring that positivity to campus, who bring that positivity because they don't want to be viewed as inauthentic or in genuine.
Speaker 1:I would lend that to being a culture problem then, which is exactly where the book kind of said like, if you want to bust a culture like, go in every day and be like Monday's my favorite day of the week, and that really does kind of bring some of that authentic positivity. But what happens is is you have like one, two, three real go getter positive people on your campus and if they're not supported and grown by the right people and they just are said like, oh, like you really think Mondays are great, you really like that AP, you really think that kid can change. You know that kid is going to be who he is. You know that he isn't going to change.
Speaker 2:You know that they're just oh, I've seen it happen, I've seen that kid you know, ready to set the world on fire.
Speaker 1:New teachers turn into quite negative because of the environment they're in, and I feel like it's this negative view. What I what I feel like the buzzword toxic positivity does is paint an even more negative light on positivity and joy and brightness and hope and all the good things in the world. Is that an over exaggeration? Maybe, but I feel like that can have a detrimental impact to what true, authentic, genuine positivity can do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I see that I mean I, I, I don't disagree with that point and that was my, I guess, biggest point that I wanted to make.
Speaker 1:but I totally understand with and agree the things you were saying, because it really comes down to a perspective right, that's which is what we have talked about in multiple episodes, is a perspective, and then be genuineness, because anything done in genuinely, whether it's negative you could say something negative like oh, those ugly issues I've ever seen, whether I mean it or not like that's going to have an impact.
Speaker 1:And I think that making that connection back to is it authentic, is it genuine, is what really matters. And so I feel like when you already have, especially like being a positive person and experiencing it firsthand, how you have to kind of work harder or you have to do more to prove yourself to people for them to take you seriously, that's where I feel like the word toxic positivity just sheds a negative light on things that are positive and people who are positive, by automatically saying that's inauthentic. And that's my main point. I don't disagree with the things you're saying and when any of those things are said with either overt, like denial, positivity, like I guess I could call it that like that, so I see that every day Right.
Speaker 1:Then that's kind of a different story, but I feel like it takes away from and that is the part that's kind of a struggle, because, you'll see, there was some articles I had read and they basically were like well, people just were like, why are you so positive all the time? Like what? And sometimes it's like, well, I'm genuinely happy and I want to share that joy with the world. And you do have to be careful to not invalidate people's feelings or to make them feel like, well, I'm so positive, like this all the time. You should be positive like this all the time.
Speaker 1:Every single person in this world student, teacher, adult, everybody is unique and everybody is different and that's okay.
Speaker 1:And I think the biggest point is that it's okay to be who you are authentically and genuinely and find people in the world that you belong with. I think, as we conclude, it's essential to remember that emotions are multifaceted and it's okay to experience that full range of feelings, both positive and negative. And, while I still disagree with the semantics, I think what we were saying was very similar and that embracing authenticity allows ourselves to acknowledge and process our emotions without judgment. That's a big one is crucial for our genuine well-being. So, whether you're having a rough patch or basking in the glow of positivity, know that your feelings are real and it's okay to seek support when needed. Remember that you're not alone in this journey and that there are people out there that will help you learn and grow. There is strength and vulnerability and, in connection, and before we sign off, a heartfelt thank you to each and every one of you for tuning in and sharing your thoughts and being part of our podcast community. Your support and engagement mean the world to us.
Speaker 2:I just want to piggyback on what Toria said. And again, I know we thank everybody at the end of every episode and it does not get tired. We do not get tired of that, of thanking everybody, and we're very humbled by your support and the conversations that we're having on our campuses. So, but we will have a surprise giveaway, surprise coming up and we will mention that and how to enter all the specifics on our next episode and hopefully we will gain some support with that and some excitement. And again, just thank you so much and we look forward to our next milestone of 1000 downloads on this thing called middle school life, the podcast. We enjoy doing these episodes. I hope you enjoy listening and I know we've got a couple good ideas coming your way soon.
Speaker 1:So all right forward to it. Until next time, take care of yourselves, stay curious and keep embracing the beautiful complexities of this thing we call life.
