Go Make Disciples
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Go Make Disciples
"Helpers on High: Mary, Saints and the Pope" – Dr. Karlo Broussard | 2025 Discipleship Conference
Ever wondered whether the Bible actually supports asking saints to pray for us? In this presentation, Dr. Karlo Broussard opens Revelation and steps into the throne room, where twenty‑four elders present golden bowls of incense—“the prayers of the saints”—to the Lamb. From that scene he builds a clear case that heaven’s citizens intercede for believers on earth, not as rivals to Christ, but as members of his Body participating in his one, saving mediation.
He then takes on the hardest objections head‑on. Does “one mediator” in 1 Timothy 2:5 rule out all secondary intercessors? Not if you accept asking a friend to pray for you. The same principle carries across the veil, because death does not sever us from Christ’s love (Romans 8). Are the dead unaware, as Ecclesiastes 9 claims? That’s the Old Covenant horizon before the beatific vision. In the New Covenant, the blessed are “spirits of the righteous made perfect” (Hebrews 12), and Revelation 5:8 presumes their awareness of petitions on earth. What about Deuteronomy 18’s ban? Scripture condemns necromancy—occult consultation of spirits for control and secret knowledge—while Christian invocation asks fellow members of the Mystical Body to pray to God. And on the language of “praying to” saints, we clarify the older sense of prayer as making a request, distinct from the adoration due to God alone.
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I am going to be speaking on some material from one of my books. This one was released by Catholic Answers Press last year, September of last year, so it's right coming up on a year old. The Saints Pray for You, How the Christians in Heaven Help Us Here on Earth. And it's basically a defense of the Catholic belief and practice of the invocation and veneration of the saints. And so I'm going to be pulling some of the material from that. I apologize for not having any copies of the book for you to purchase here at the conference. That did not work out for a variety of different reasons. And then also, too, I normally have like a handout to go with this presentation so that you can have something to take home with you. But I kind of figured that you might want to go and buy the book instead, right? So you can't cheat. So I see there are some note takers in the auditorium here, so take as many notes as you want. But do know that everything I share with you here today is all detailed in the book that you can get at shop.catholic.com. That's the Catholic Answers online bookstore. And you can also get it on Amazon and any Catholic bookstore near you. All right. So the title of the presentation is Helpers on High. So we're going to be talking about the intercession of the Saints. The subtitle in your program said Mary, the Saints, and the Pope. We already talked about the Pope in the previous session. And so in this session, we're going to answer the question where in the Bible does it reveal that the saints, in fact, intercede for us? And do we have any biblical reasons to invoke the saints for their help and asking them to intercede for us? So that's going to be the first question that we're going to answer. What's the evidence for this Catholic belief in practice, biblically speaking? And I think that's important. Sacred scripture is a means of divine revelation for us. Amen? Along with sacred tradition, that is true. But whenever there is evidence of divinely revealed truths in its written form, it's important for us to look to it. And especially given the fact that we live in like Protestant land here in Oklahoma, we need to be able to talk the Bible. We need to be able to speak with our Protestant brothers and the sisters in a way that they're able to relate to us. Because we do have common ground in affirming Scripture as the Word of God, inspired by God. And so whenever the evidence is there for our Catholic beliefs, it's important that we share that evidence with our Protestant family members and friends. Of course, always moved and motivated by charity. Absolutely, because without charity, you're a resounding gong. And I have St. Paul to back me up on that one. 1 Corinthians 13, check it out. Now, secondly, once we answer that question of where is the evidence, I would like to address some common challenges that our Protestant friends, family members and friends, brothers and sisters in Christ pose to us as Catholics in relation to this belief and practice on the intercession of the saints. One objection, for example, is how can we say that it's appropriate for us as Christians to invoke the intercessory prayer of Mary and the saints when the Bible says in 1 Timothy chapter 2, verse 5, there's one mediator between God and man, the man, Jesus Christ. Feel the weight of that objection. Bible says only mediator, Jesus, and we Catholics are saying Mary mediates for us. Seems as if we're contradicting sacred scripture, right? Or how about in conversations that come up when we're talking about the intercession of the saints, our Protestant friends will say things like, Well, they're dead. You shouldn't be, nor can you invoke them for their prayers because they're dead. Well, why would that be a problem? Well, because if they're dead, they don't know anything. Because Ecclesiastes chapter 9, verses 5 and 10 said the dead know nothing. Seems as if the Catholic practice is futile and we're wasting our time. Or perhaps the other reason would be you shouldn't invoke the saints because they're dead. And the Bible in Deuteronomy chapter 18, verse 12, forbids communication with the dead. What are you Catholics doing communicating with the dead? You're actually seemingly an abomination to the Lord, engaging in abominable practices, so Moses says in Deuteronomy 18, 12. Can you feel the weight of those objections? Finally, some of our Protestant friends might think, well, your belief and practice of the intercession of the saints makes gods out of them. Well, why would you think that? Because you quote unquote pray to them. And prayer belongs to God and God alone. How many of us have heard that one? Yeah. Or how about this? You make gods out of them because, insofar as you say that six billion people at one time can offer a prayer request to Mary, that she can somehow know that request, all of those requests. She would have to be God to know that. Can you feel the weight of that objection? So, those are the types of challenges that we're going to address in today's session. There's the lay of the land. Does that sound worth saying? Okay. I don't see anybody walking out yet, so we're good. Let's go ahead and dive in. First question: What's the evidence for the Catholic belief that the saints in fact intercede for us? Well, the evidence is found in the book of Revelation, chapter 5, verse 8. That's the key text. And I apologize for not having a PowerPoint with all the biblical citations for you. I just haven't gotten there yet to develop this talk in a PowerPoint form. But just go buy the book. You got it all there, right? Revelation chapter 5, verse 8. There, John describes the throne of the Lamb in the heavenly throne room. And he describes the four living creatures surrounding the throne of the Lamb, which we know are seraphim, angels. And outside of the four living creatures, you have 24 quote-unquote elders, as the English translation has it. The Greek word there is presbyteroi, presbyters. There is an argument to be made that the English word priest comes from even presbyterous in the Greek, but we could put that off to the side for right now. But these 24 elders, what are they doing? John describes that they're presenting the cover of my book. Y'all saw that? They're presenting golden bowls full of incense to Jesus the Lamb. And you know what John calls that incense? The golden bowls full of incense? He says, These are the prayers of the saints. So you have 24 presbyters or elders in heaven presenting to Jesus the quote unquote prayers of the saints. Now, some exegesis is needed here, right? Who are these 24 elders? Are they human souls or are they angels? What sort of creatures are these? What are these, who are these saints that John speaks of? Prayers of the saints? Is he talking about saints in heaven? Or is he talking about Christians on earth? And what kind, which kind of prayers are these? Are these merely praises, perhaps, that are being presented to Jesus as the Lamb? Or are these petitionary prayers? It's a lot of questions going on, right? So let's see if we can make good and answer these questions that arise when we look at this text. And hopefully I can lead you to the other end of the cave when we come out the cave into the light and see the biblical evidence of human souls in heaven interceding for Christians on earth to Jesus the Lamb. That's the goal. So let's see if we can get there. First of all, who are these 24 elders? Well, if you read the context, the immediate and wider context of chapter 5 in the book of Revelation, which I articulate in great detail in my book, The Saints Pray for You, in chapter through chapters 4 through chapter 7, what you discover is that there are concentric circles coming out from the throne of the Lamb. You have the four living creatures that represent or constitute the first concentric circle coming from the throne. Those are the seraphim, the highest rank of angels. Then John describes the 24 elders as constituting the second concentric circle coming out from the throne of the Lamb.
unknown:Okay?
SPEAKER_00:Now remember, the first question we're trying to ask here: who are these 24 elders? I'm attempting to answer the question, hang with me. Then on the outside, the third concentric circle, beyond the 24 elders, John tells us in Revelation chapter 7, there is a multitude of human beings from the earth, from all tribes, tongues, and nations. Then, oh I'm sorry, I messed up. That was the fourth concentric circle. The third concentric circle are other angels, a multitude of angels. So you have the four living creatures, angels, the 24 presbyters or elders, then a multitude of angels, so John describes then in chapter 7. We have a multitude of humans from all tribes, tongues, and nations. Visualize those concentric circles. Jesus the Lamb, angels, 24 elders, multitude of angels, then multitude of human souls. Notice you have a comparison of rank of angel to rank of angel. And logically it follows that you would be having a comparison of 24 elders to a multitude of human souls, thereby implying which kind of creatures are the 24 elders? Angels or humans? Humans. Angel compared to angel, humans compared to humans. John is seeing different ranks of the heavenly host, ranks of angelic beings and ranks of human souls. The 24 presbyters representing the God's people combined of both old and new, the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles. But the bottom line is that John sees these 24 elders as human souls in light of the context of Revelation chapter 5. So we have our first piece of the puzzle here. These are human souls presenting the golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints to Jesus the Lamb. Okay? Well, we have these prayers of the saints. Who were the saints? Well, just right off the bat, it wouldn't make sense that those saints refer to the saints in heaven because they're all there at the throne of Jesus the Lamb. Why would these 24 presbyters need it need to be presenting the prayers of those who are already in the presence of Jesus? That kind of doesn't make sense, right? Furthermore, consider the fact that I think if my memory serves me correctly, you can fact-check me in my book on this. Out of the 59 times that the term hagioi in the New Testament is used, which is translated as holy ones or saints, they're all used for believers here on earth, except possibly for one in Colossians chapter 1, verse 12, I think it is, where St. Paul says that we partake of the saints in light, seemingly referring to the blessed in heaven. But the overwhelming majority of the use of the term saints within the New Testament refers to Christians on earth. So that would be a simple reason to think that the saints here refers to Christians on earth. And furthermore, in the Psalms, the image of incense rising up to heaven is utilized for the prayers of God's faithful people on earth. So with that Old Testament backdrop, and you come to John's heavenly vision, he sees incense prayers which are in the form of incense rising up to Jesus' throne, and in light of the Psalms there that articulates incense of prayers of God's faithful people on earth rising up to heaven, what do you conclude? That these Christians, the prayers of these saints, are the prayers of God's faithful people on earth. Does that make sense? Okay. And then, furthermore, as I point out in the book, another Jewish backdrop for us as Catholics, Old Testament inspired word of God, backdrop for our Protestant friends, just Jewish historical context, in Tobit chapter 12, we read about how the angel Raphael presents the prayers of Tobit and his daughter-in-law to God in heaven. The idea of prayers of God's faithful people rising up to the throne of God is already part and parcel of the Jewish context, as illustrated in Tobit chapter 12. And so when John sees this vision of prayers of saints rising up to the throne of heaven, as a good old Jewish boy, he'd be thinking, oh yeah, that's kind of like Raphael did it with Tobit and his daughter-in-law and their prayers of God's faithful people rising up to the throne. The saints refer, the prayers of the saints refers to the prayers of God's faithful people on earth. And finally, the last question is well, are these prayers mere praises or petitionary prayers? Well, again, as I point out in my book, the overwhelming majority and use of the term prayer within sacred scripture is petitionary in nature. That these would not be merely praises, but petitionary prayers as well. And so what do we have here revealed in Revelation chapter 5, verse 8? We have human souls in heaven, the blessed, the saints in light, as he calls them, Paul calls them in Colossians 1.12, interceding for God's people on earth, presenting the petitionary prayers of God's people on earth to Jesus the Lamb. That, my friends, is what we call the intercession of the saints. Amen. And just to share a little anecdotal evidence of how this line of reasoning works, this simple step-by-step process of breaking open the Word of God and illustrating the intercession of the saints in Revelation 5.8. One example. Several years back at Catholic Answers, I was in the office. A gentleman comes in, comes into my office, shakes my hand, and says, Thank you. Why did he say thank you? He proceeded to tell me that a year before, he just so happened to stumble across Catholic Answers Live, which, by the way, you can listen to Catholic Answers Live Monday through Friday from 5 to 7 on your local Catholic radio station. Every Tuesday night, I'm on taking questions that you can listen to me. So he just so happened to come across the show that I was on, and I talked about this passage of Revelation 5.8. Gave a simple two-minute explanation. And it was either a new car or a rental car. Can't remember that detail. But it just so happened to be set to the Catholic radio station. By the way, whenever you rent a car, be sure to set it to the Catholic station, okay? It works. So he stumbled across, he went home, told his wife, shared with his wife this revelation of Revelation 5.8 and this line of thinking in exegesis, and they became Catholic a year later. That was the impetus, that was the spark to get them on the journey to become Catholic. And he traveled all the way, I can't remember exactly where he was from, but he traveled quite a ways to San Diego at our Catholic Answers headquarters to come and thank me for that little tidbit of information. Anecdotal evidence number two. There's a friend of mine back in Tulsa, he was a Church of Christ pastorslash evangelist, traveling across the country, going to Church of Christ communities, doing Bible study sermons. This dude is super smart. He knows the Bible back in front way more than I do. Well, he converted to Catholicism last December. He's a good friend of mine. So about six months ago, actually, well, actually it was before this past Easter vigil, at some point, he came to one of my presentations on the intercession of the saints. And I gave the line of reasoning from Revelation 5, 8, walking it through step by step. And he had studied a lot of apologetics, but that was the first time he had sort of heard it synthesized in the way that I did. So you know what he did? He went home and called five of his Protestant buddies. And all five of them assented to the intercession of the saints after walking them through this explanation. So come Easter Vigil, my buddy comes to sit with my family at Easter Vigil, and so we're chit-chatting, which we shouldn't be doing before Mass, but I confess we were chit-chatting. And so he started to proceed to tell me that, yeah, his Protestant friends are coming to accept the intercession of the saints from Revelation 5.8. And I said, Yeah, dude, you told me that the other day. You don't remember you told me that? You know, the five guys that you went and converted or whatever. He was like, No, there's 25 more. He called 25 of his Protestant friends to do Bible study with them and explain their intercession of the saints from Revelation 5.8 with, and every single one of them 100% assented to the intercession of the saints and are now invoking the saints for help here on earth. Isn't that beautiful? Yeah. So, guys, and listen, by the way, I didn't make this stuff up, all right? I'm just sharing with you guys what I learned from the guys at Catholic Answers who have been doing this stuff for many years. Nothing unique about me, it's the word of God. But the point is that this sort of explanation and exegesis of the text works and it leads people to come to see the truth of the intercession of the saints. Now, why would we want to do that? Why would we want people to come to know that they can invoke the help of the heavenly host? In order that they can know that the household of God goes beyond the boundaries of this life. Amen. We are not confined in our family to brothers and sisters only on this earth, but we have a family that extends beyond this life into the heavenly realm, and we can tap in to that spiritual power. Sorry, that was I just saw on the monitor here that I was doing this, and I was like, man, that looks very cheesy. They're gonna send the video without the audio, and somebody's gonna think, man, what the hokey pokey or something? That charismatic fool up there. So the point is, is this works in order to lead our Protestant brothers and sisters to realize that the family of God is a larger and larger than what we experience here on earth. And that's a beautiful message, amen? That's good news. And I share that with you so that you can know that we don't do this apologetic stuff, explaining and defending the faith, merely to win the arguments. Are winning the arguments important? Yes, if you don't win the argument, then the other person's not gonna adopt the belief. If you don't win the argument and present the truth, well then the person's not gonna believe it. So you gotta win the argument, but it's not the end goal. That's the means to lead the other person to encounter our Lord in his fullness. You say, well, does that mean they haven't been encountering the Lord? No, our brothers and brothers and sisters do encounter the Lord, and in fact, a lot more intimately than we Catholics sometimes, and we can learn from them. But to encounter the Lord in his fullness, the whole mystical body of Christ. Amen. Including the souls in purgatory and the souls in heaven. That's what all of this is for. That's why we do what we do at Catholic answers and Catholic apologetics. It's not just for the head, it's for the heart as well. It's for the encounter with the fullness of the truth and life in the mystical body of Christ. So, my dear friends, that's Revelation chapter 5, verse 8. All right. How are we doing out there? We're doing okay? I know that's a lot. It's a lot to digest. Take a breath. Now let's move on. So I mentioned at the outset that there are a few challenges that our Protestant friends will pose to us concerning this belief and practice, namely the invocation of the saints and their intercessory prayer. And the key challenge that comes up initially, 99.9% of the time, is an argument from 1 Timothy 2, verse 5. And that's where Saint Paul correctly identifies Christ as the one mediator between God and man. So the challenge often is how can Catholics invoke Mary and the saints to pray for them, to mediate for them, to intercede for them? When 1 Timothy 2, 5 says there's one mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ. Now, for a resource, well, okay, I kind of forgot I wrote a book on all this stuff. I was just gonna say I have another book called Meeting the Protestant Challenge, where I dealt with this specific objection in one of the chapters, but the book, The Saints Pray for You, goes into greater detail on this issue. So, how do we respond? Well, let me ask you this you help me out. If we say that I cannot ask Mary and the Saints to pray for me, because it somehow takes away from the glory of Jesus as the one mediator, well then who else wouldn't I be able to ask for help? Each other. Right? Notice the logic of the challenge undermines every and all mutual Christian intercessory prayer. And it's pretty obvious, right? I mean, the reason why our Protestant friends challenge the invocation of Mary and the saints is because they think it's going to take away and rob Jesus of the glory of being the one mediator. But then we respond and we say, well, wait a minute, we don't think like that when we ask each other to pray for us, right? When I ask you to pray for me, we don't think, oh God, we're robbing Jesus of his glory as the one mediator. And when you ask me to pray for you, no one, even our Protestant friends, think that we're somehow robbing the glory of Jesus as the one mediator. So if this challenge is successful and we cannot invoke Mary and the saints to pray for us because it undermines the glory of Jesus, well then we can't engage in any Christian intercessory prayer. Because that would rob Jesus of his glory as the one mediator, too. Y'all follow that? But do we believe that mutual Christian intercessory prayer is going to rob Jesus of his glory? No. And so therefore, we can conclude asking Mary and the saints to pray for us doesn't rob Jesus of his glory any more than me asking you to pray for me robs Jesus of his glory as the one mediator. Did y'all follow that logic? Okay. If you didn't, get the book. All right. Now, the key theological question that arises is well, why is it the case that whenever I ask you to pray for me, we don't think it's robbing Jesus of his glory. Why is that the case? Why is it that we can ask each other to pray for each other and intercede for others and it not undermine the unique mediation of Jesus? And the answer is because when I pray for you and you pray for me, we are doing so in, through, with, and because of the unique mediation of Jesus. Does that make sense? We are participating, we are participating in Jesus. We can only bring about blessings in each other's life on account of our intercessory prayer because of Jesus. Because this is the way he set it up. Jesus doesn't need you, and he don't need me. And if that's a little bit ruffling your feathers, I'm sorry, but it's just a metaphysical reality, and I'm a philosopher and I have to speak truth kind of thing. But the point is, is that Jesus could direct blessings in your life and give you graces and give you blessings directly without me in any way whatsoever. Could Jesus do that? Yes, absolutely. But what he wills to do in this order of providence is to communicate blessings to us in and through the members of his mystical body of Christ. So my brother here, was it Ben?
unknown:Bruce.
SPEAKER_00:Bruce. Oh, I got the B right. That was close. So Bruce here, Christ wills to communicate blessings and graces to him in and through my intercessory prayer, insofar as I am a member of the mystical body of Christ. And he is a member of the mystical body of Christ. This is St. Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians chapter 12. Remember, Paul draws a parallel between the physical body and Christian believers, the body of Christ. And just as members of, just as the members of the physical body assist each other for the health of the whole of the body, so too we Christians, as members of one another in the mystical body of Christ, can assist each other. So when we pray for each other, we're not robbing Jesus of his glory, we're giving him glory. We're manifesting the glory, we're testifying to the glory, because not only, first of all, are we doing what he wants us to do, intercede for each other, but we're doing it in him by virtue of his power. So that when you get a blessing in your life on account of my prayer, that's giving glory to the Lord because he will to give you that blessing through my prayer. Does that make sense? Okay, all of that theology for this, I ask you, are Mary and the saints in heaven still members of the mystical body of Christ? Yes, they are. And they're perfected members of the mystical body of Christ. And you know how I can prove this? In Romans chapter 8, verses 35 and 39, St. Paul gives a list of all of the things that cannot separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. And in each of those lists, in verse 35, he says the sword, in verse 38 or 39, actually, he says that he says death. The bottom line is death. Death does not and cannot separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. So if I am a member of the mystical body of Christ, having sanctifying grace in my soul, and I die, I continue in that relationship with the Lord. I continue having sanctifying grace. I continue being a member of the mystical body of Christ as I exist in the heavenly realm. All of the heavenly hosts, the saints and the angels, are all members of the mystical body of Christ, folks. And they're perfected members of the mystical body of Christ. As the author of Hebrews says in Hebrews chapter 12, verse 22, they are the spirits of the just men made perfect, he says. And so when I invoke Mary to pray for me, does that rob Jesus of his unique glory as the one mediator? No, it doesn't precisely because she is a member of the mystical body of Christ. And whatever blessing comes my way on account of her prayer. Is coming my way because of in and through the unique mediation of Jesus. Jesus is the source of the power. Mary the saints, and even us as members of the mystical body of Christ, are the channels and the instruments through which the power is disseminated among the people of God. Amen? So that, my friends, is how we respond to 1 Timothy chapter 2, verse 5. All right. We can keep moving forward. I still got 20 minutes, actually 18 minutes with you. So hang in there, okay? Now, what's what often happens in conversations, once you respond, it will always begin with 1 Timothy chapter 2, verse 5. Almost always. And the minute you respond to that challenge and illuminate the logic of the challenge and how we don't apply it to mutual Christian intercession, inevitably what's going to happen is, well, they're dead. So sure we can pray for each other because we're alive. But the saints in heaven are dead. Now here's a caution for you, okay? Sometimes Catholics will respond and say, Well, they're not dead. They're alive with God in heaven. Didn't Jesus say that God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, not the God of the dead, but of the living? And that is true. They are alive in spirit in the Lord, but they did in fact die, folks, okay? Unlike potentially Mary. There's this theological tradition in the history of Catholicism that Mary perhaps didn't die, called the Dormition or the Sleeping of Mary. But there's also the theological tradition that she did die, we don't know, but that's beside the point. The point is that the blessed in heaven did in fact die. So that argument and the response will not work for a Protestant. So the Protestant is going to say, Well, they're dead, Carlo. And this exact this happened not too long ago in a conversation with a Baptist friend of mine. But they're dead, Carlo. So my next question is, well, okay, well, what is it about them being dead that makes you think we shouldn't invoke their help? First answer, potential answer that they will respond with is, well, they're dead, so they don't know anything. They're dead, so they don't, they're not aware of what's going on here on earth. Well, why would you think that, Protestant Baptist friend of mine? Why would you think that? Oh, because Ecclesiastes chapter 9, verses 5 and 10 says, the dead know nothing. And you can kind of feel the weight of that, right? I tell you what, if I was a Protestant trying to argue a Catholic out of this Catholic belief and practice, I would just simply say to him, What don't you understand about that, man? It says the dead know nothing, the saints in heaven have died, and so therefore they don't know anything. How do we respond to that? Well, here's the beginning of the answer. The author of the book of Ecclesiastes, when he wrote that, that the dead know nothing, he was right for the souls in the afterlife at that time, before the ascension of our Lord into heaven, granting the gift of the beatific vision to the dead, those who died in friendship with Christ. You see, without getting into all the philosophy here, the bottom line is that we are a body-soul unity, amen. That's how God created us to be. And our natural mode of knowing things is utilizing the body, taking in sense data, the mind going to work on the data, abstracting certain ideas, etc. And even when we're thinking in our process, we use images and call phantasms in our sensory memory. Whenever the soul separates from the body, the soul is in an unnatural state. And so consequently, we would not be able to know things naturally. Because naturally, the soul needs the body to do that stuff. Okay? It's kind of like I need light in order to see. You turn the lights off, I can't see. I still have the power to see when the lights are off, but I can't see anything. So you've got to turn on the lights and have objects for me to see. Similarly, the soul needs the body kind of like the eyes need the light. But you turn out the lights, you get rid of the body, the soul can't do its thing to know things. Well, so consequently, the only way for the soul to know anything would be a grace given to it by God, infused knowledge. So for the souls before the ascension of Christ, before the beatific vision, souls in the afterlife did not have, ordinarily speaking, knowledge of what's going on on earth. That's why the Jews believed it was a shadowy realm. And better to be alive than to be dead, because of this understanding of the afterlife. Now, there are some hints in the Old Testament scriptures where we see examples of some souls having an awareness of what's going on here on earth in extraordinary circumstances. In 1 Samuel chapter 28, remember the story of King Saul consults the witch of Indore, conjures up the soul of the prophet Samuel, and they have a little conversation. And Samuel pronounces judgment upon Saul. That's an example where you have a separated soul having some knowledge of what's going on here on earth in an extraordinary circumstance. Even 2 Maccabees chapter 15, check this out. We believe it's inspired by God. Our Protestant friends do not. That's unfortunate, but it's at least a Jewish attestation to the belief. Judas Maccabees has a vision of two gentlemen interceding for the Israelites here on earth. One by the name of Onias, who was a high priest, and the prophet Jeremiah. They're actually interceding for God's people here on earth. So for us as Catholics, that would be a biblical reference to the intercession of the saints, even in the Old Testament. That's 2 Maccabees chapter 15. But my point here is that ordinarily speaking, separated souls wouldn't know what's going on here on earth. So when the author says the dead know nothing, he's right. But guess what, folks? Are we in a whole new ball game now? Yeah. It'd be like going to what's that center of PACOM Center? Is that where the thunder play? Yeah? It'd be like going into PACOM Center and like the lights are turned off. That would be like the Old Testament. Pretty bleak. Not a lot going on. And then in the New Testament, lights come on and Shays just dunking on everybody and winning the championship, right? That's the new covenant of Jesus Christ, where we have a new gift, the gift of the beatific vision. So all of those separated souls that follow Christ into the beatific vision of the heavenly realm, they got some new stuff. They got new added power and equipment, infused knowledge for the mind to be able to know now what's going on here on earth. As revealed to us in Revelation chapter 5, verse 8, where you have human souls aware of the petitionary prayers of Christians on earth. So with the new revelation, does Ecclesiastes 9, 5, and 10 apply anymore? No, it does not. And so therefore cannot serve to be a defeater of the Catholic belief that the saints can actually know what we're asking of them. Now, our Protestant friends might answer the question: well, why would the dead, why would them being dead impede you from invoking them to intercede for you? Well, doesn't Moses forbid communicating with the dead in Deuteronomy chapter 18, verse 12? Many Christians think he does. In Deuteronomy chapter 18, verses 10 through 12, Moses gives a list of things that the Israelites are not to do, and which Moses calls abominable practices in the sight of the Lord. And among those things that are abominable practices are seeking mediums, wizards, sorcerers, and necromancers. So Moses forbids necromancy, the practice of necromancy. And so some Christians conclude from that, you see, Moses is forbidding communication with the dead. So what are you Catholics doing communicating with dead people? That's an abominable practice. So what's the question we need to ask? Is Moses forbidding communication with the dead, simply speaking? Well, let's consider it. It is true that Moses is forbidding communication with the dead. But he's forbidding communication with the dead of a certain kind. Namely, consulting mediums, necromancers, to conjure up spirits of the dead to elicit certain knowledge beyond ordinary human intelligence about the future, manifesting a desire to have mastery over the future apart from God. That's necromancy. Even the Hebrew word for necromancer means an inquirer of the dead. An inquirer of the dead, where you consult the medium to bring the dead to you to try and get information from them, which is exactly what King Saul did with the witch at Endor in 1 Samuel chapter 28. And this is further testified to in light of the context, because the reason why Moses tells the Israelites to not go to the sorcerer, the wizard, the necromancer, is because there is a prophet to come like unto me, Moses says, Him you shall heed. And then he goes on to talk about false prophets who come in the name of the God of the name of God, try to tell you things in the name of God that don't turn out to be true, and there's going to be some severe consequences. So the whole teaching is, hey guys, stop going to the pagan sources for knowledge, knock that stuff off because there is a prophet like me coming. And of course, he's talking about the Messiah, the new Moses, Jesus. Yeah? And so the lesson for the Israelites is you go to God for your knowledge, not to the pagan mediums, like necromancers, sorcerers, and wizards. Now, once we have that knowledge in place of exactly what Moses is forbidding in Deuteronomy 18, 10 through 12, we come to the practice, the Catholic practice and even the Orthodox practice of invoking the saints in heaven to intercede for us. Is there a matching here going on? No. Are we communicating with the dead? Yes, but not in the way that Moses forbids in Deuteronomy 18. And in fact, the Catholic Church just follows Moses' prohibition of Deuteronomy 18 and condemns these sort of occultic practices. So any of you consulting psychics and mediums and all of that stuff, you need to get your rear end to confession. Because that's an abominable practice, and not only according to Moses, but reaffirmed by Jesus' church, the Catholic Church. And the reason why it's so severe and grave is because it manifests fundamentally a distrust in God and his providence and his sovereignty. Looking to other sources for my happiness and knowledge as opposed to God. And so it's basically involving a turning of your back on God. That's why it's so severe. But my friends, the Catholic practice of invoking the saints just simply doesn't fit the bill. So the appeal or the challenge from Deuteronomy 18, 10 through 12, simply has no persuasive force for the Catholic practice of invoking the saints. Finally, in the last few minutes that we have, we come to the last sort of challenge of, well, Carlo, you Catholics are just making gods out of them. So your belief logically entails idolatry. Making gods out of them. Well, why would you say that? Why do you believe that? Well, because you say you prayed to them. Yeah, we actually do say that. I mean, that's not the kind of it's not really the official language. The church's official language is invocation, like we invoke the saints. But the catechism in three different places, don't ask me for the citations, I can't remember them. But in the catechism in three places, does affirm, use the language of prayer to Mary. So our Protestant friend thinks, well, prayer belongs to God alone. So if you say you pray to Mary, then that means you're making a goddess out of her. You're worshiping her. Notice the implied assumption. The language of praying to is logically equivalent with adoration and worship. But that's an assumption that we can honestly and legitimately challenge. The language of prayer to, even in its old English form, doesn't necessarily mean adoration and worship. It simply means to make a request. So in old English, even in the old King James Bible and the Dewey Reims and certain Old Testament passages, I pray thee, pray tell, right? It simply means a request that is made. That request can be made from a divinity, from God, or it can be made from a creature of God. And depending upon who you're making the request from and the intention with which you make it, that will determine whether it's adoration and worship or simply veneration, reverence, or honor due to a creature of God. Does that make sense? So when I make my request from God, I am worshiping him. I am praying to him in the sense of worship and adoration. Because when I make my request from God, I request goodness from him insofar as he is the source of all goodness. And only he as God can be that, amen. So when we make our request unto God, that is prayer and worship. But when I make my request unto you for whatever it is, as good as you, I'm sure you are, brother, I'm not making that request because I think you're the source of all goodness, amen. And so my request, my prayer, my praying to, can be conceived of rationally as a simple act of reverence or honor. I trust you enough that you love me enough to help me out here and give me some help when I ask it from you. So you can see the distinction between the adoration and worship of praying to God and the veneration or reverence, due reverence, for praying to saints, all saints within the mystical body of Christ. Finally. Well, Carlo, how in the world can Mary, a finite being, have knowledge of eight billion prayer requests at the same time? If everybody on planet earth make a request and a different request unto Mary at the same time, she would have to be God to have knowledge of all those prayer requests. She would have to be omniscient, wouldn't she? Well, actually, no, she wouldn't. Let me ask you, folks, you help me out. The knowledge of eight billion prayer requests, is that finite knowledge or infinite knowledge? It's still finite, absolutely. It's a heck of a lot of prayers, right? And that's a lot of knowledge, but it's still finite. Well, if it's only finite knowledge, would it require being infinite to know it? No. Now, could Mary have that kind of knowledge just by herself? No, she couldn't do that either. Like, I know a lot of things, but I can only know so much. Mary knows a lot of things, but she can only know so much of herself by her own power, natural powers, right? So, what is she gonna need? So I know it's finite knowledge, so it doesn't require infinite knowledge, but I know Mary of her own natural powers wouldn't be able to have that knowledge. So, what is she gonna need? She's going to need a grace from on high. She's gonna need some help from Jesus to give her the knowledge. Can Jesus do that? Yes. If he can give Daniel the knowledge of Nebuchadnezzar's dream and what it means, well then surely Jesus can give Mary the knowledge that she needs of all the requests that we're making of her. And that's exactly what the Bible reveals implicitly with Revelation 5, 8, of that knowledge being given to the blessed in heaven and given that reality. If that's what they're doing in heaven, then that provides for me justification to ask them. I have revealed data telling me the saints in heaven pray for me. And if that's the case, well then apparently Jesus wants us to ask for their help. And so we are not making gods out of them. We are not guilty of necromancy, they can know what's going on here on earth, and we are not taking away from the glory of the unique mediation of Jesus when we invoke their help. And we have biblical grounds to affirm all of these things, which for us as Catholics can embolden us with a healthy confidence and fruitfulness within our hearts to engage in this practice, and then also for our Protestant brothers and sisters for them to come to see the truth of the intercession of the saints. Amen. My dear brothers and sisters, the saints of God, thank you for your time and your attention. God bless you.