This week HATM friend Lindsay Chervinsky drops in to talk about Episode 4 of Franklin. We talk about the very real possibility all of this could fail, spies galore, a young Louis XVI (with a head!) and a villainous John Adams? Join in with us now!
About our guest:
Dr. Lindsay M. Chervinsky is a presidential historian. She is the author of the award-winning book, The Cabinet: George Washington and the Creation of an American Institution, co-editor of Mourning the Presidents: Loss and Legacy in American Culture, and the forthcoming book, Making the Presidency: John Adams and the Precedents That Forged the Republic. She regularly writes for public audiences in the Wall Street Journal, Ms. Magazine, The Daily Beast, The Bulwark, Time Magazine, USA Today, CNN, and the Washington Post.
This week HATM friend Lindsay Chervinsky drops in to talk about Episode 4 of Franklin. We talk about the very real possibility all of this could fail, spies galore, a young Louis XVI (with a head!) and a villainous John Adams? Join in with us now!
About our guest:
Dr. Lindsay M. Chervinsky is a presidential historian. She is the author of the award-winning book, The Cabinet: George Washington and the Creation of an American Institution, co-editor of Mourning the Presidents: Loss and Legacy in American Culture, and the forthcoming book, Making the Presidency: John Adams and the Precedents That Forged the Republic. She regularly writes for public audiences in the Wall Street Journal, Ms. Magazine, The Daily Beast, The Bulwark, Time Magazine, USA Today, CNN, and the Washington Post.
Jason Herbert (00:00.848)
Good. I'm glad you love it because welcome back to Histories of Movies podcast. I have your host and I don't know creator, whatever. I'm Jason Herbert. It's my last name. I'm joined here by Kelsa Pelletiere, our guest host for this series while we're talking about all things Franklin for the next ever. I don't know how many weeks we've been talking for like an hour at this point in time. So welcome in to mid conversation with Jason, Kelsa and Lindsay and of course our this week's.
guest host, the amazing returning back, Lizzie Trubinsky. Lizzie, welcome back. You want to introduce yourself real fast for people just tuning in?
Lindsay (00:37.576)
Sure. I am Lindsay Sharinski. I'm a presidential historian. I have written a couple of books, including a new one coming out on September 5th called Making the Presidency, John Adams and the Precedents that Forged the Republic.
Jason Herbert (00:53.552)
Awesome. Thank you. And also you have an awesome dog. So you do have an awesome.
Lindsay (00:56.2)
I do have an awesome dog, who hopefully will not punch the door, but no promises.
Jason Herbert (01:01.552)
I think he's interrupted every time you fit on the pod. Like he has come up usually. So if he does, it's a good time. So, all right. So a basic idea, same time as last time. Thankfully we're only doing one episode this time. Last time we had three episodes as Apple launched it. How do you launch a series with three hour long episodes? I sat there going as much as, and I named a child after Benjamin Franklin, a full on human being. And I was like, Jesus Christ. I,
Lindsay (01:03.112)
Usually.
Kelsa Pellettiere (01:04.653)
as he should.
Jason Herbert (01:31.792)
Need a break. It was a lot for three episodes. First, I know they had to get us to Saratoga. So we had that big turning point. So the pacing, right? And so forth. The three is a lot. So we're back to back to a single episode today. So if you're just tuning in, we're going to just talk about some basic ideas here to start before we start spoiling the episodes. So if you haven't seen the episode yet, continue to listen in and we'll let you know what we're just going to jump. If you don't know anything about the past or haven't read a book,
Kelsa Pellettiere (01:37.485)
Mm -hmm. Again, pacing is interesting there. Yeah.
Jason Herbert (02:00.784)
about what comes next. Pause. And someone out there is just going, you know, I would like to learn about Ben Franklin, you fucking asshole. But that's okay. So, all right. So this episode, General Thoughts, Lindsay, you see your first time joining in. How are you enjoying the series four episodes in so far?
Lindsay (02:20.232)
Well, so admittedly, I watched all four in two days, so they're really kind of blending together. So perhaps not the best prep, I guess, for which I apologize. But overall thoughts on the series. So there are things that I really like. One of the more historical elements that I am really enjoying is I think they did a really good job pushing back against
Jason Herbert (02:31.49)
Probably not invited back.
Lindsay (02:44.2)
eventuality in the series because we all sort of know the end point that Franklin succeeds with the French and there's the treaty and he's celebrated and beloved and blah blah blah. And so I think they did a really great job in the first couple of episodes of emphasizing in the early days why that was not necessarily guaranteed and reminding us some of the tension and the stress and the difficulty of arranging that challenge. I love the constant pervasiveness of spies. I feel like that is a
Jason Herbert (02:46.48)
Mm -hmm.
Lindsay (03:12.456)
both a very accurate and well thought out theme for selling the show, because who doesn't like spycraft? I like, on one hand, I don't always like how dark it is when I'm trying to watch the show and it's bright out and I'm like, I cannot see what is happening. But I feel like, especially when they're showing nighttime scenes, it's probably a fairly accurate reflection of what rooms would have felt like. So I appreciate that. The flip side, gosh, sometimes it's dark and I'm like trying to put up the brightness on my computer screen.
Um, I think that there are probably some inaccuracies, which are not particularly, I think they don't detract from the overall arc or narrative, but there are times where I'm like, wait, I need to Google that. Cause I don't think that that quite happened. And I will admit that I'm still not totally sure how I feel about Michael Douglas as Benjamin Franklin. I liked the look. I feel like aesthetically, this was a very nice choice. I mean, I think Michael Douglas is phenomenal. Jason and I have done an episode on the American.
president. So obviously, I think he's amazing. I think
Kelsa Pellettiere (04:12.013)
I love that movie. It's one of my favorite movies of all time. It's such a good movie. She's beautiful and worth it. She's perfect!
Lindsay (04:15.08)
so good. I mean also like in that bedding. Legend.
Jason Herbert (04:19.856)
I knew you were gonna say it man. Here we go. We just lost, we just lost, here we go, here we go with you that minute. Here comes Sydney, Sydney Wade. All right, go ahead.
Lindsay (04:20.904)
She is. Sorry, sorry. No, focus, focus, focus, focus. Benjamin Franklin. So Michael Douglas, so he is, so on one hand, like there are things about him I really like. I like that he occasionally looks very spunky and has, you know, obviously a sense of humor and has some slyness to him. But sometimes I feel like he also talks as though he's Michael Douglas or talks as though he's,
Kelsa Pellettiere (04:26.285)
Sorry, sorry.
Lindsay (04:51.144)
President, what's his face? I can never remember. Andy, Andy, thank you, President Shepard. So, which I feel like is probably Michael Douglas. So that is the only thing that's occasionally like sort of like sticking for me. But overall, I think he probably does about as well as one could do with Benjamin Franklin as a 21st century human. So those are my overall thoughts. I am crushed. We planned this long before we knew how exactly the episode structure was going to work.
Jason Herbert (04:55.28)
Shepard!
Kelsa Pellettiere (04:56.717)
Yeah, Shepard.
Lindsay (05:19.912)
I'm crushed that we didn't get more John Adams in this particular episode. And I was optimistic about the casting, that the one line that we got is not giving me a lot of hope for the future, but I may be getting ahead of myself. So we will come back to the very last scene of that episode.
Kelsa Pellettiere (05:34.957)
Okay, we're coming to that eventually because I have questions for you on that one. I mean I was excited about it
Lindsay (05:39.208)
Yes, let's.
Jason Herbert (05:40.432)
Yeah, I like, yeah, that's a good point because we'll talk, we're going to talk about this, but like, I generally like that actor and stuff that he's in. When you see him, you know, he's done some really powerful, good stuff. You know, I'm just going to say it now. It felt like a little mustache twirling, snidely, whiplash -ish kind of like, ha! They have to replace you. Like, hi, we're going to spoil the episode now. Go for it. I don't care. Let's just jump in.
Lindsay (05:53.64)
Yeah.
Lindsay (06:04.648)
Yeah. Yeah. Let's just jump in. Let's just jump in. No, let's jump in. So first of all, I mean, so like, again, aesthetically, I really like the choice. I think it was a very good, and obviously they've done some nice makeup to make him a little jowlier, which I don't know is a word, but I'm gonna make it one for now. So he's jowlier.
Kelsa Pellettiere (06:07.117)
Yeah, I was about to say, like, I want to comment, but we've shifted into spoiling yet.
Jason Herbert (06:10.256)
Let's go. Let's go backwards.
Kelsa Pellettiere (06:23.789)
The very first show, like image of him, I literally freaked out like, oh, that's an early portrait of Adam. I like was startled. He looks like 45, 35 year old Adams. It like, I was like, okay.
Jason Herbert (06:24.048)
Totally.
Lindsay (06:29.)
Yeah, it was great. Yeah.
Jason Herbert (06:32.304)
Mm -hmm.
Lindsay (06:35.144)
Yes, great choice, great choice. I, so, Kelsa, Adams doesn't go to replace him, right? Adams goes to be with him. Okay, okay, right, okay, so I'm like, wait, I'm not getting my history wrong here.
Kelsa Pellettiere (06:44.717)
Correct, he doesn't. No, he does not go to replacement. No, he doesn't.
No, you're not. So like, I literally gave a paper about this actually, about what happens after, literally that's what I did at the SMH conference this weekend, that's why I'm at a different location at Jamie Goodall's house. Shout out to Jamie Goodall, go follow her on Twitter, thank you very much. But yeah, literally my paper that I was talking about was like, what happens once Adams gets there? So my paper was technically gonna be spoiling for next episode probably, I'm curious how that's gonna play out, I have a lot of things to say. But no, Adams doesn't show up there to replace him, he gets sent off.
He learns in the, I want to say it's like November, if I'm remembering my paper correctly now, it's been two days and I'm dead inside. He gets appointed to go as like another embassy to help Franklin and assist in negotiation, but he's never sent there to replace him. He does find out once he's there that Franklin's already gotten the treaty done. He ends up showing up like a month after it's been negotiated and done and like all the final trimmings have been done, you know, T's crossed and everything like that. But he goes there.
Lindsay (07:34.408)
The treat inside. Yeah.
Lindsay (07:47.592)
As an aside note, why did early Americans think it was a good idea to send three people to negotiate shit? They do this all the time. They do this from like 1775 up through, you know, like the 1830s and three people, I mean, I get the concept. I do understand the overall concept. If someone gets sick, there's not modern medicine, blah, blah, blah. You want to make it seem more serious. Yeah.
Kelsa Pellettiere (08:02.061)
And ends on that.
Jason Herbert (08:11.728)
There's a redundancy, right? Sure.
Kelsa Pellettiere (08:12.909)
You're a little light. You're having a more optimistic view than me because I personally think it's to hold people accountable because they have just complete mistrust in every new body because of the different regional interests. I view it more as like, again, like. Kind of, but it's mostly because they just don't trust anybody because like, and I can get it to a degree, I do learn her a little bit like and this is something I teased down in my paper, so I'm like, I'm talking about myself right now. I don't mean to. But like, you know, this Adams comes from such a puritan background.
Lindsay (08:25.8)
like a checks and balances situation.
Okay.
Jason Herbert (08:39.76)
Let's go.
Lindsay (08:42.792)
Yeah.
Kelsa Pellettiere (08:43.021)
Of course he's coming more with mistrust. Boston has suffered the most in everything leading up to the war. The majority of people that make up the Continental Army are from the Boston, Massachusetts militia. I forget what version, but I want to say it's like 80 % of them end up joining, becoming, making up the final Continental Army under George Washington. They put the most effort and pain and suffering throughout the war. There's a lot more animosity there.
They have more of a desire to make sure their voices are heard. So of course they send Adam to the most fucking vocal of all of them, as you well know. And I have my own opinions about that. I anyway, but like even going up to that time, everything that I've read about, like, why is it always a couple of people even until like the late, like mid 1840s for negotiating shit? In my opinion, it always comes down to politicking specifically for regional interests. And yeah.
Lindsay (09:35.432)
totally make sense, totally by that. I think that's totally legitimate and it makes, it also like coincides with after the Civil War, then you have a shift towards one, but it just, it just, it's so inefficient. It's just so inefficient.
Kelsa Pellettiere (09:43.949)
Exactly. Because they don't like to say it, because everyone doesn't like to say it. It's like, it's not always sexualism and stuff. I'm like, no, but it is sexualism, but it's not like North South. It's New England. It's the West. It's the American South. It's American Southwest even is starting to like quote unquote be occurring because like Tennessee is a whole different region of Western Pennsylvania. So like I personally would argue that I love your idea. It's actually more like uplifting on that concept. Like, oh, let's think about like if people get sick and shit like that.
Lindsay (10:02.312)
Yeah, totally. Yeah.
Kelsa Pellettiere (10:13.901)
But like, I definitely think it's more of like, people are angry and more mistrust is between all of them. And at the end of the day, whether people like it or not, Puritans are anti -Catholic. No one likes a Catholic French martyr. Like.
Lindsay (10:26.216)
It just seems like, I mean, yes, I think this is all true. It's just they're setting themselves up for so many Cluster Fox. And it's not surprising that that's what they get. Anyway, I derailed us. The end scene, John Adams.
Kelsa Pellettiere (10:32.173)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Kelsa Pellettiere (10:36.717)
This is on brand because I've been dying to be like hold on I have opinions on that too perfect question because I love that one I was like, oh my god I have opinions Jason lives for this shit. He's like, let's go. Oh I actually had a question for you So out of curiosity, I'm just for the context of like people watching the show What is John Adams doing at this time before he gets to France?
Lindsay (10:43.784)
Should we let you talk, Jason, or should we just keep C -rolling you?
Lindsay (11:00.776)
So Jason, you don't get to talk apparently. Okay, great. Okay, so context for John Adams. So John Adams first rises, a little bit of backstory. John Adams really first rises into national prominence when he defends the British soldiers in the Boston massacre. It's up there.
Kelsa Pellettiere (11:02.989)
No.
Jason Herbert (11:08.784)
Florida.
Kelsa Pellettiere (11:22.893)
My favorite thing he does, honestly.
Lindsay (11:26.12)
Well, it's so on brand because John Adams loves to be unpopular if it means he's doing the right thing. And it's the first big instance in which he really welcomes the unpopularity for a principle, which is that he wanted the revolution to be one of principles and not of passions. So he defends the Boston Massacre. At some point, he was sent to the First and Second Continental Congress as a delegate from Massachusetts with his cousin Samuel Adams and some others.
Kelsa Pellettiere (11:26.445)
Yeah.
Lindsay (11:54.952)
He becomes a leading voice for independence early and often. He was completely indefatigable. How do you pronounce that word? Indefatigable? I can never say it. He has endless energy, let's say that. He was on...
Kelsa Pellettiere (12:06.829)
I can't either and I was wondering. Yes. How's the 10th 20? Let's be honest, that's John Adams.
Lindsay (12:14.664)
Yeah, he was on, I think, more committees in Congress than anyone else. And just like, Constance was also like the person doing all the notes and the person doing all the drafts. He...
Kelsa Pellettiere (12:20.653)
I think that's right.
Kelsa Pellettiere (12:25.037)
Yeah, it was him, George Washington, Madison and Hamilton. I think we're actually not Hamilton wasn't there. I think it was him, George Washington, Madison, like we're up there on the most committees. I think Adams was the most. I think that's right.
Lindsay (12:35.912)
not surprising, he really couldn't help himself. He then, so in one of his most important early contributions, is he comes up with what is called the model treaty. So it's basically a treaty for to guide future diplomatic negotiations as the nation is new, it has to start to figure out its international relations, and so he says like here's what a treaty generally should look like, and that treaty was then used as the template for many of the the ones that followed. He
Kelsa Pellettiere (12:38.285)
Yeah.
Lindsay (13:05.768)
when he is sent to France, he is sent to France to join Franklin, not to replace Franklin, to help with French negotiations. I know I will be getting ahead of myself, but I have lots of thoughts about the general depiction of John Adams and why he is depicted the way he is depicted. But it drives me, to this day, it drives me, the number of people who I talk to about, I will say I'm writing a book on John Adams, they say, oh, he was just so grouchy.
No, he wasn't. No, he wasn't. This is Jefferson propaganda. No, he wasn't. Like, yes, he could be a curmudgeon, but he also had real joy. He had a sense of humor. He loved people. He loved his wife. He loved his children. He had a sense of humor about himself. My favorite joke of all time that he made was when the election of 1800, he was accused of sending Charles Cotesworth Pinckney to England to pick out four mistresses, two for each of them. And he said, well, where are mine? He must have kept all.
like he's great. Yeah, he's like he must have kept the ball for himself. Where are mine? So anyway, so I think that so much of the depiction of him and so many things including although so spoiler alert, I intentionally did not let myself watch the John Adams mini series in like the last decade because I wanted it to not color my writing experience, but I'm going to be binge watching it this summer. But as I recall, even the very
Kelsa Pellettiere (14:04.141)
I've never heard that, that's amazing. I love that.
Kelsa Pellettiere (14:26.317)
valid.
Kelsa Pellettiere (14:30.477)
You've hurt Jason's feelings, he's just shaking his head.
Jason Herbert (14:31.728)
If only there were a reason for you to binge watch that, Lindsey.
Lindsay (14:34.504)
We've discussed it. We've discussed it.
Kelsa Pellettiere (14:38.285)
No, I can see why you wouldn't want to do that. I get it. It's a different level of this is work and it's going to color my opinion of how other people have depicted them. I get it. Yeah.
Lindsay (14:46.312)
But as I recall, even the great Paul Giamatti did occasionally picture him as more grouchy than I think he was. So that was my rant about John Adams.
Kelsa Pellettiere (14:53.389)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm. No, honestly, that's valid. Um, because ironically enough, I was, uh, one of the questions I wanted to ask you is, what's your opinion on the casting, considering how limited of a view we get of him at the end, because like, it's like my thing for Franklin. Um, to me, that's Tom Wilkinson. To me, John Adams is Paul Giamatti, you know, like they do the best. I, that's, that series, the casting is just like the perfect images in my mind of the, or that founding generation, you know, like they -
Lindsay (15:22.632)
Yeah.
Kelsa Pellettiere (15:24.653)
Whoever that was, like gold star to everything you do in your life. That was a perfect series. And this.
Lindsay (15:26.92)
Yeah.
And Laura Linney as Abigail was just chef's kiss. Yes.
Kelsa Pellettiere (15:32.813)
She was amazing. This literally perfect casting. But yeah, that is something I was interested in. It was just like, kind of like what Jason said, like the twirling mustache thing. I'm like, yeah, he comes off like super fucking hostile. And he's not hostile to Franklin in that way. I would argue he can get hostile to Franklin more in the written rhetoric. I feel like you're the expert on John Adams. What I read about is mostly him like talking shit.
Lindsay (15:38.088)
Yeah, spectacular.
Lindsay (15:49.48)
initially.
Kelsa Pellettiere (16:02.829)
But I mean he could write he had vicious rhetoric like that's let's be honest with himself He honestly only person better than him the only person better than him at vicious rhetoric is Abigail Adams That was my entire conference paper like she fucking I need to send it to you Lindsay cuz like the shit she says about Franklin fucking savvy like I Got everyone going like damn in the conference is great. Like it was so fascinating watching how like aggressive Adams is portrayed at the very end towards Franklin Franklin's like what the fuck?
Lindsay (16:07.752)
He knew how to use a pen.
Lindsay (16:13.608)
That's true.
Lindsay (16:19.176)
Yep.
Yeah, nope.
Kelsa Pellettiere (16:32.269)
I mean, like, it was just so like, okay, you're coming with a very specific view of Adams to paint the rest of the series, probably, which I'm not looking forward to personally now. Although, again, like it's starting to mean he looked like 45, 30 year old Adams when he like showed up there. It was like, it kind of, I did a bit of a double take there, but yeah.
Lindsay (16:52.84)
Yeah, no, I thought it was, I thought physically it's perfect. I agree with you that it was super aggressive to begin with. And I always felt like the depiction was, the way that their period of time in France is written, I think is a little bit, on one hand, I think is totally accurate. It's like, Adams and the French don't work. Adams and the French don't work. They just don't. And there's no doubt in every way, in every way.
Kelsa Pellettiere (17:11.949)
Correct. Absolutely. Literally diametrically opposed in a lot of ways, like the fool from the Hamilton play, like they really are.
Lindsay (17:21.192)
Yeah, and you know, like, so Franklin really, I think, understood there's that line, can't remember what episode it was now, where he said, like, sin is tolerated, but ridicule is not. Where, like, his grandson sees the, has like the the pamphlet. So he has like a very clear sense of the French culture in a way that Adams never gets. But that doesn't mean that Adams is not good at diplomacy. It means that he's much better suited. Like, he kills it when he's at the Hague.
Kelsa Pellettiere (17:33.613)
Oh yes, I'm not like that.
Kelsa Pellettiere (17:38.317)
Yeah.
Lindsay (17:49.064)
Like the Dutch and Adams are great. And even to a certain extent, Adams and yeah, and Adams and the British actually do okay too, because like the British appreciate his honesty and sort of straightforwardness and hardworking nature. It's just Adams and the French don't work.
Kelsa Pellettiere (17:49.581)
No, yeah. Absolutely. It's literally just in the French. Yeah.
Kelsa Pellettiere (18:01.773)
Yeah. I have a genuine question. So this is again jumping ahead a little bit just but for my context since I have you here. A couple of things I've read about with Adams when he is in England as the ambassador to England once the new constitution is or the Articles of Confederation are still going on and everything. Like he talks about getting sliding and stuff at court and everything but like he takes it all like on the cheek and is just like no I'm still here and like
over time as like a pretty good relationship with people at court and his wife does too and it's really like it's admirable in a lot of ways because in my opinion again I fully agree with you. Alan's a shit in France, does great in the Netherlands and the Hague or the Hague depending on if you're a European or American however you want to pronounce that. Don't come frame me in the comments please guys. But when he's in England he does a great job too and it's just it's literally just it does not work in France. He does not get the culture of way of things and also I won't lie he and again I can kind of get it though.
Lindsay (18:53.384)
Yeah.
Kelsa Pellettiere (18:57.485)
Boston, his home, his home colony, his home for everything for generations has been at the seat of all the pain and suffering for the war the majority of the time and leading up to. I get it that he's impatient. I get it to a degree. It's not coming from a place of cruelty and just like, well, some of it, I think he does believe that Franklin's a little incompetent, but again, culture difference. But like in some ways it's like, no, I get it. You're angry, you want things done. You want your country, your country and your state.
to not be suffering anymore. So it's respectable down the road. So I get that.
Lindsay (19:33.352)
I think also some of it is like, you know, he was technically a congregationalist, which is the Puritan descendant, but the Puritan work ethic and the Puritan morality drove him crazy in France because, you know, they start the day late and they end the day late. And there's a lot of activity that doesn't look on its surface like it's work, but it's relationship building in a way that was essential. But the way, but he felt it was just like,
Kelsa Pellettiere (19:39.981)
Yeah.
Lindsay (20:03.208)
you know, pandering and socializing and being in a way that he didn't totally understand that work ethic. And so I think that's why the Hague and London worked better, which is not to say that like he achieved a whole lot in London, but I think that was mostly attributable to the Articles of Confederation, the fact that Congress couldn't do anything. He was really hamstrung there. Jason, should we let you talk? Would you like to say a few words?
Kelsa Pellettiere (20:21.549)
Yeah, I agree.
Kelsa Pellettiere (20:27.085)
Sorry, Jason.
Jason Herbert (20:30.128)
Hi. No, all right, no. This is the anti -Craig. No, so.
Lindsay (20:30.568)
Bye.
Kelsa Pellettiere (20:32.589)
I got exploited.
Jason Herbert (20:40.56)
I actually want to go back to the beginning of the episode. One of the things I'm interested in here is popular perceptions of both Franklin and Adams as these revolutionaries. I think in many minds, we always associate them as revolutionaries, as these founders of the Republic and all that. And for me, what I find interesting, and this is something that I don't know, so I'm very much interested to hear both of your perspectives on say Franklin and Adams and maybe some of these other guys, is there is a moment in time.
You know, I talk a lot about, say, Seven Years' War. These colonists were proud Brits. They were proudly part of the empire. This is at the crux of the relationship in some ways about the distrust between these colonies and the French because we were just fighting you a decade earlier and so forth. And we see opening up in this episode, we see, I guess, 1770, 1771 -ish, Franklin is there trying to have the royal governor removed.
And instead it is Franklin himself who is removed from his position. So the question I have for the two of you is how we have, say, let's go with, say, Franklin and Adams to put this in mind. What are these moments, these points of no return to when these men and women, in the case of, say, Abigail, right, look at this and say enough is enough. There is no going back. And so much we see, we saw that in the negotiations between Franklin and his counterparts in this episode. It's like, no, you don't understand. We're done here.
Lindsay (21:53.096)
Thank you.
Jason Herbert (22:07.472)
Right? In Franklin's mind, there's no going back. So my point is that, my question is this, how do we get here before Franklin, before we ever get these treaties? When in the mind to say Franklin and Adams is enough enough? When do they make that turn for, I'm now an American.
Kelsa Pellettiere (22:24.461)
Okay. I would like if Lindsay is comfortable with this, her starting, because I would argue that the change comes sooner for Adams compared to Franklin, because I can almost tell you exactly when it is for Franklin. It's in 1774. And I guarantee you it comes earlier for Adams.
Lindsay (22:40.36)
Yeah.
Yeah, it does. But I think what's really interesting is that, like, I think it's actually much harder to pinpoint one moment for Adams because I think it was so much more of a slow boil. And that was partly because of the Boston context of so much of it is layered into the Hutchinson royal governor stuff, so much of it is layered into, of course, Boston being the seat of revolutionary fervor, the intolerable acts. But I think also,
Kelsa Pellettiere (22:49.389)
Okay.
Kelsa Pellettiere (22:55.981)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Lindsay (23:11.368)
Boston and I think Massachusetts more broadly was really one of the colonies that had most flourished under benign neglect, which was the concept of, for those who aren't familiar with that term, basically they were left alone by the king for most of their history to just flourish. And they did, and they took, because it was not a super hierarchical society, like say a South Carolina type of place, they had town meetings. It was...
It was not democratic like we would think of democracy, but it was relatively democratic in that there was a lot of public participation in local governance and a real pride in the inheritors of that sort of British tradition or they thought of themselves as the inheritors. So I think the slights really built over time. I don't think there was ever, and maybe other people would disagree and certainly other people have spent more time with early Adams than I have, but I think, I don't think there was ever like one.
moment. I mean, it was certainly clear by the Boston massacre where he stood. And it was also certainly clear that his cousin, Samuel Adams, was farther advanced in that and more radical than he was. So I think we can certainly say by Boston massacre, he's absolutely drawn a line. But it was, I think, a slow build, much like many of the people in Boston had that experience.
Kelsa Pellettiere (24:32.013)
I actually fully agree with that for Adams personally because like again there is no slow build for Franklin on the complete opposite. So quick Kelsa Franklin rant because there's a lot that's wrong with that scene that they open up with the Privy Council thing and I would like to point those out. First off, in the context of that scene, yes it is the cockpit that's what that's called, yes this is in front of the pretty Privy Council where the man's name that escapes me off hand who...
Lindsay (24:49.672)
Please.
Kelsa Pellettiere (25:00.397)
Is the one that's doing the most of the speaking and dragging Franklin and stuff. He's bringing up the royal governor situation And then also like encouraging him of being like this person doing all these anonymous pamphlets editorials calling for sedition basically against Franklin That's not what happens in that event. Um the whole thing about trying to be at the War of the prior to your ship of Pennsylvania to then become a royal colony
is the reason originally he is sent to England. He's there for nearly 15 years. Over time, he does become the like more a senior advisor to other colonial agents from those others that were mentioned. So he has the most lead because he's there the longest. He can guide them more. So they defer to him when it comes to negotiating rights and responsibilities for all these other colonies that are there. But what ends up happening for him to be dragged before the privy council like that is because of the Hutchinson letter affair where a private incident where
Lindsay (25:39.912)
Okay.
Kelsa Pellettiere (25:58.125)
Thomas Hutchinson writes about basically making fun of and assaulting the honor of the colonists in a lot of ways from the language that he's using. Craig is probably pissing his pants right now listening to this podcast in the future. But like he's literally dragging them and saying like all these things like the fact that we've given them more rights and privileges to vote and things is like detrimental because now they're questioning everything. They need to go back to being lowly, lowly serfs and
and submissive basically is the language that he's using like this they need to go back to being differential not challenging or even questioning authority and Franklin gets a hold of this letter privately exchanges it to people and from what I know of how it happens he does intend for this to get in the hands of Sam Adams.
Because he sends that to his friend who's friends with Sam Adams and the Sons of Liberty, and then it gets printed out and exchanged everywhere. And then Hudgenson's life is at stake and everything like this. And it's a whole thing. Lindsay knows this. It's a whole smattering of another point of where the colonies not necessarily united, but are at least have a more common enemy contributing to this colonial tension with the empire, more of a breakdown of empires happening with here. And the only reason Franklin.
addresses that it was him who fucked up and did this and when it gets out and everything happens because the biggest thing that came about this was everyone at this time has this thing and it's a different concept of honor of a whole gentlemanly gentility shit where you could exchange private letters and talk shit about each other but you never let it get public and you always gave them back. It was this very weird... It was this very weird side conversational thing happening but it was always meant to be in this closed space.
Lindsay (27:16.36)
Wow.
Kelsa Pellettiere (27:43.533)
and it never got out. But Franklin doing that like offended the honor of the people that it hurt despite the fact that it was fine that it was shared with other people. And the reason why he comes out to admit that it was him is because the honor of two other gentlemen come up to accuse the other for it happening and a duel happens. And to stop two men from killing each other in a duel, Franklin intervenes and says, no, it was not the fault of either of these people of you accusing the other, it was me.
Lindsay (28:02.696)
Thank you.
Kelsa Pellettiere (28:12.621)
goes before the Privy Council, that man in the Privy Council drags Franklin for this. Franklin does not talk back, by the way. That's something they point out. And the lines he's quoting is from a letter that he had years prior, I wanna say it's in 72, 73, he articulates, to try to protect the China base of the British Empire. It's not like access to the Orient, it's actually where you can sell all the Oriental goods is to North America. I wanna say it's in 1773.
I think it's specifically from a letter where he talks about the concept of, quote, unquote, no, you need to work with the colonists in North America. Like there's so much money to be made. They're naturally going to expand and grow in a natural populace and naturally reproduce so fast. Like it's going to be a huge market to take advantage of. You need to be lenient with them because you can just make so much money off the colonies. So it's from that's from the language he's using that from an earlier letter. But he actually never speaks according to what is said from witnesses there.
Franklin sits there, is dragged for like hours. I couldn't even get to tell you, it's more than hours, less than six. It's somewhere in between. He just sits there, is berated and dragged. He's personal honor, his character is attacked for letting these private letters, he slipped out into quote unquote, the public sphere, getting an exchange with the colonies and citing more insurrectionist energy and seditious activity.
and he's completely dragged and his reputation is broken and because of how they treated him, he says, I am done with the British Empire. That is the moment he goes, no. He has never wanted the empire to break and fracture. His entire life was dedicated to the prosperity and expansion of the empire. And while he even at times wasn't necessarily a colonist guy of the stand back situation for a fact, he's like, well, no, they can afford to do that. But when he learns that,
people even like, I think it's one of like one of his nephews at one point, he gets them a job to be a stamp collector and he learns like what's happening to stamp collectors and everything. He quickly pedaled back, pedaled like, no, no, no, no, no, no, I see y 'all's point, my bad. But we still don't need to, to squabble and have this breakdown in empire. So it's in 17, like late 17, it's early 1774, I want to say. That happens, he's dragged completely disillusioned, heartbroken almost, I would say.
Kelsa Pellettiere (30:31.725)
Um, and everything, every bit of goodwill he has ever had is gone with the empire at that point. And that's why I find the title of the fourth episode, a small revenge, very fitting because that outfit that he wears at the end of making the treaty with France, spoilers guys, for those who are just now catching in, um, it's, it's suggesting the one that he wore when he got dragged. And also it's a throwback to one of my favorite portraits of Franklin, by the way, the one where he's like quote unquote a man of the environment.
Lindsay (30:57.448)
Oh, the scientist one? Yeah.
Kelsa Pellettiere (30:59.501)
Yeah, that's the same blue and everything. And I have, it's one of the ones that I have in that particular painting. It's showing him being emblematic of the enlightenment. He's wearing the British royal blue, the nice gold buttons. There's a picture of, is it Socrates or Aristotle? No, Sir Isaac Newton, I think. Is that it? It's one of those guys, like looking down and all the books and things, and it's meant to all like reflect that, which is another like interesting like little like Easter egg of like.
All those things that he did to or the that Franklin's known for was to help support the British Empire. And this is something I talked about the last episode or last podcast is like the most important thing that Franklin does for the United States is what he does in France. It's also like a throwback to all these things and successful things I did for the empire. Doesn't matter. I'm now wearing this for this moment. It's really, really interesting. Like these little Easter eggs that they're dropping. So they get that whole scene wrong.
in a lot of sense, but the fact that how, like, they attack him publicly, they drag his honor and his character when he's done nothing for the Empire, that breakup moment still is very, very good. And I like it for that reason. There's a lot wrong with it, but again, I get why they changed it for the sake of simplifying. But I had a lot to say about that opening scene. Thank you for humoring me there, so.
Jason Herbert (32:20.816)
I want to ask you guys actually about a point of no return for the colonies themselves. For those who are not familiar, there was famously an olive branch petition in 1775. This war was, in a lot of ways, the colonies tried to stave off this war, did not want this. And again, Linty, you talked a little bit early on about one of the great things this series does is push back against the idea of inevitability, right? There's so much contingency here. There is, you know, even this episode, I think was far better than the first three in painting an idea that
Kelsa Pellettiere (32:43.053)
Yes.
Jason Herbert (32:49.968)
This might not happen. This is incredibly unlikely to, I keep thinking about this in terms of like the MCU, I'm like, in what timeline does this actually occur? And we actually, in the United States actually forms because of their ability to forge these relationships, right? Kelsey, you were saying last week, the United States wins this war because it's able to, diplomatically because it's able to forge these relationships. So.
I'm kind of wondering, Lindsay, Kelsa, is like, you could kind of talk a little bit about the own pushback of the colonies to... What was their moment of no... Is there a moment also of no return on the part of colonies as well?
Lindsay (33:27.176)
Yeah.
Lindsay (33:32.168)
Well, I mean, I think it's hard to say because I think the moment probably is different depending on the colony. I mean, so, you know, I always kind of chuckle at the olive branch petition because it was written after the war had been going for three months. So for context, we're recording this on April 21st and we just had the anniversary of the Battle of Lexington and Concord in which.
Kelsa Pellettiere (33:32.717)
Yeah.
Kelsa Pellettiere (33:36.845)
Yeah.
Kelsa Pellettiere (33:44.877)
Yeah.
Jason Herbert (33:52.56)
Mm -hmm.
Lindsay (33:59.976)
the British forces in Britain marched west to seize ammunition that was in Lexington and Concord. And so like it's pretty hard to have an olive branch petition when you're like, whoops, kind of already started the war. So, you know, I think that the olive branch petition was a turning point for whoopsies. So, you know, I think the olive branch,
Jason Herbert (34:16.368)
Sorry we shot your guys.
Kelsa Pellettiere (34:22.733)
Whoopsies, my bad.
Jason Herbert (34:24.08)
We shot them all the way back to the ocean.
Lindsay (34:29.224)
Yeah, not just once, but a lot of times. So I think that the Olive Branch was... Yeah, exactly. It's like you kept... You actually kept doing it. Kept killing them. And then there was another one. There was the Battle of Bunker Hill and it just kind of kept happening. So I think that the Olive Branch petition was the last turning point of the holdouts that were hopeful that if they were explicitly speaking to the king...
Jason Herbert (34:32.464)
Recap, recap, recap, shooting.
Lindsay (34:57.384)
that he would come to their aid. And when he very much did not, that was, I think, a big turning point for last holdouts. Obviously, a number of colonies, particularly Massachusetts, but I would say most of Virginia as well. Virginia was pretty far out there with Massachusetts, were by that point ready to go because they were already thinking in these terms. And we should remember that there were
there was a really good article about this now I can't remember there were a lot of actual tea parties it wasn't just Boston a lot of other states
Kelsa Pellettiere (35:28.205)
Yeah, there's like nine or 10 others, right?
Lindsay (35:31.463)
Yeah, there were a lot of other states that dumped tea into their respective harbors and as a protest symbol. And so, you know, when I think about like what was the turning point, I think it is possible that had the empire backed down after the intolerable or the coercive acts that it still could have been salvaged because there hadn't really been a whole lot of explicit violence. I think after the explicit violence of Lexington and Concord.
I don't really see a way out.
Kelsa Pellettiere (36:04.269)
Yeah, I'm kind of there with Lindsay. For me, Lexington and Conqueror is clearly like it's a civil war for me. Like again, breakdown of empire. Like to me, this is such a grad school answer to me. Like that's the breakdown of the empire, but it's not revolution yet. And because of what's happening so much, just again, I keep going back to this thing, like so much of it's specifically affecting Massachusetts.
I'd say like for the revolution ideas and like the move towards revolution's happening first in Massachusetts maybe. Because there's more organization about it, it's the long term things that Lindsay's already very accurately talked about and stuff. But I'd say as a whole of the colonies, if we're getting specific, if we're going, I would argue it's before the Declaration of Independence, probably like, I want to say it's October, September of 1775. And the reason why I'm picking that date.
is because that is where the secret committee of correspondence is made, which Benjamin Franklin is part of. It's basically the first version of our Office of Foreign Affairs and the CIA origin story is from this. So at that point, you've already got delegates that have been sent to the Second Continental Congress that have been chosen by all the colonies for their representation. They've all decided to make this. And already separately, there's, fun fact, at this point, there's already been a quote unquote,
Frenchman who has spoken to them quietly in Under the cover and I in a like outside of a tavern or whatever in Philadelphia Talking to friends on a couple of other guys likes feeling out of France would work with them That's one of the reasons they motivate them to send Salas Dean later who goes actually before Franklin to France Because of this so I would argue the moment like where there's no going back for the Americans is where they decided to make basically a secret committee to deal in espionage and
specifically to filter out what other foreign countries will work with us before we declare independence. And for me, that's very specific. While it's not the public declaration of independence and we're publishing it and everything, but if you get into the weeds of all the shit, because after the seven years war, France for a long time under Louis XV actually had like French foreign agents coming in and out. And a lot of them were actually in Boston, Massachusetts, like kind of seeing where tension would be.
Jason Herbert (38:13.328)
Thank you.
Kelsa Pellettiere (38:25.613)
around the Stamp Act, right before the Stamp Act, they're not there that much, but there's always somebody there kind of writing back like what's going on, especially after they've heard what's going on with the Stamp Act and everything like that. But because of what happens in the Boston Tea Party, that is such a glowing point of England can no longer control their colonies. Oh, let's pay attention a bit more. So they move towards that. So for me, it's...
Jason Herbert (38:28.72)
you.
Lindsay (38:49.608)
Well, that's also a really good point because...
Kelsa Pellettiere (38:51.853)
It's that point where it's kind of like the delegates have now decided let's start seeking out foreign aid before they declare independence. For me, that's like, you kind of can't stop the steamroll of independence. Not to be mean to my great campaign with common sense, that helps, but like the delegates are making moves in my opinion, so.
Lindsay (39:01.576)
What is it?
Lindsay (39:07.656)
Yeah, well, I mean, I always kind of I always think of the Declaration of Independence as being like, that's obviously the preamble to an exquisite work of art, but it actually has much more impact for later revolutions than it does for the American Revolution. Yeah, but so.
Kelsa Pellettiere (39:20.813)
Oh absolutely, I teach it that way. Absolutely. It's already been predetermined. There's a reason why they decided to move forward with it. It's just been a moment.
Lindsay (39:27.688)
Yeah, but so I think that like the concept of declaring independence and the way that it is phrased is actually a recognition of what it means to be independent, which means that you have to have recognition by other states in order for your existence to be a lived reality. And so what you're talking about in terms of trying to think about how to start working with other nations is trying to actually embody one of the key things that a sovereign nation does, which is to interact.
Kelsa Pellettiere (39:56.077)
Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. So yeah, for me, that's the moment just because like the broader perspective is what I tend to look at. But, but I mean, honestly, like if we're going like which colony decided to become a, you know, which state decided to be first, obviously, Massachusetts. But as a whole, I'd say probably like, winter 1775 is probably where they'd say they, they're, they basically won independence, but they haven't convinced enough people yet.
Lindsay (39:56.744)
other sovereign nations. It's a really interesting point.
Lindsay (40:02.76)
What do you think, Jason?
Lindsay (40:25.896)
What do you think, Jason?
Jason Herbert (40:26.608)
Yeah, I think the thing that I always find fascinating, of course, you know, I studied the South, right, is how, again, sitting here 250 years later, we think of the United States as the United States, and that simply was not the case. So people coming to this time period for the very first time, maybe watching the series, reading some of these amazing books that are talked about, Lindsay's yours included, obviously, right, is how fractious these colonies actually were. I specifically look at the South so many times.
think how did this ever happen? How did we ever come together? Because the things that the South had nothing in common with these northern colonies. So I'm always shocked. And of course, look, East and West Florida do not rebel. These are also colonies. We always forget about these two colonies. So there, there's your Florida moment. What the Florida brought to you by Jason. So, but that's...
That's what I always find fascinating is the fact that these things come together, especially even as the war goes. It's like, you know, these these it's feels as though, you know, into the war itself. OK, maybe the the northern colonies will continue will continue to succeed. But maybe they maybe the British Empire can hold on in the south. And that obviously doesn't happen either. What are the questions that I had watching this, Lindsay? And you kind of brought this up early on was this idea of espionage, stake of spycraft. And it seems to me.
that everyone in the world understands that Benjamin Franklin is the linchpin to this whole operation, whether or not it's gonna succeed. So why not assassinate the man? Are there no attempts, Kelsa, on Franklin's life? I keep wondering if he's so dangerous, why not kill him?
Lindsay (42:02.056)
Thank you.
Lindsay (42:05.48)
Huh?
Kelsa Pellettiere (42:09.901)
So...
Lindsay (42:10.728)
you
Kelsa Pellettiere (42:14.733)
Okay, so I have my opinions on this. That's a whole, how dare you, because someone's now gonna beat me to it. That's a whole separate thing that I wanna work on. There's one article that's out there that talks about how someone, a woman, almost poisoned him, basically, supposedly, maybe kind of, sort of. It's this very weird article, and now the name of it escapes me. But basically, there's this woman, for context real quick, while Franklin is in France.
So many Americans and people who are British who leave Britain and everything and like still like appeal for his help and everything while he's there. Even before like they're officially recognized as the United States and everything. People are constantly going to him like letter of rec. There's the running joke that he has like a joking one made that he just signs that he has to be made that they don't get to see by the time they like a Frenchman wants to go to America, you know.
Supposedly that he does that and other people are reaching out to him like for us financial assistance like I've been robbed. I'm an American I'm here to help the American cause I've been robbed I no longer can't afford my the place that I am is your way I can get an advanced loan payment weird little things like this constantly at one point Supposedly it's been a long time since I've read this article. So bear with me listeners. Basically this woman if I'm remembering correctly
Was the wife to a man that knew Franklin and then he left her pregnant or with a newborn baby I don't remember which and appealed for him for help and apparently he helped her and then came back for more help and he's like I've already given you what I can help you with and somehow along the way Someone else meets her. She bitches about what Franklin not helping her
And somehow she has this substance that is then led to believe is a type of poison that her husband used to use to get high or something. And the way that it is told in this article, again, it's been a long time since I've read this, okay, is that this man then writes to Warren Franklin, worried that this woman might try to poison him basically with this white powder that she has. And I believe she actually ends up getting thrown in jail because they're like worried that she's gonna try to kill him. It's a whole weird...
Kelsa Pellettiere (44:27.725)
what if thing that happens? Yes, like this is a thing. It's been, I wish I could remember the name of the article. I actually didn't think about this, but that's the other thing is I'd have to do more research into this, but it's always kind of been my thing too. Like why aren't they killing him? And point blank, I think they wouldn't cause they know at that point, if they were to kill him intentionally, there would be no way of convincing them to acquiesce and allow autonomy in the colonies, but they'd still be part of the British Empire. I think they're always like holding out.
that they can convince and wear them down to just accept autonomy and not independence. But killing Franklin would, I think, be really publicly damning to them, and especially not in the eyes of the French, by the way, in the eyes of British people in England. Because Franklin still, the whole time he's in France, is right into a lot of his British contacts. There's a whole separate thing that I want to do with another chapter with him and his friendship with David Hartley, who's a member of the House.
Lindsay (45:15.272)
Thank you.
Kelsa Pellettiere (45:26.701)
Commons, yeah, House of Commons, who's one of those people the entire time during the war, even beforehand, is like, no, we need to listen to what the colonists are saying. We don't want them to separate. We don't want this war. He's one of those people the whole time who is advocating in Parliament, like, no, we need to end this war. We need to bring them back into the British Empire. We should not be neglecting these other Englishmen, right? The whole time. Otherwise, though, he's writing Franklin, like these whole separate things, like, you know, to acquiesce.
Lindsay (45:43.08)
you
Kelsa Pellettiere (45:52.717)
Trading of POWs a whole different language of honor is happening there again. Craig Bruce Smith is excited as hell listening to this portion of the podcast But with all of that happening Franklin was loved and respected in England again everything up until this point is he benefited the British Empire He is a symbol of Britain all those old exploits point fucking link man fucking discovers electricity
The man was influential with like the social life of England, representing the interests of the American colonies. He was tied into all these philosophical and royal societies, tied into the rest of Europe because of the royal society. Like the man was loved by people in England. I think it would have been like, and again, this is like just me spit balling here, but I think it would have been the worst PR moment to have killed Franklin for England at that point. I think it would have been horrible PR move.
Especially also if they tried to do that, even though it's happening in France, to try to assassinate somebody in France who are so public in France, whether the French government likes it or not, I think they would have also taken that as an act of war. And they don't want to get France to fight this war as long as possible, because that's multiple fronts at that point. It's not just North America, that's across the channel.
Lindsay (47:13.352)
Thank you.
Kelsa Pellettiere (47:13.357)
That's in the fucking West Indies. That's in other places in Indochina, like areas and other parts. It's an old different global war again if they are to offend France still. So I that's my opinion, my educated opinion about why there's no quote unquote, like organized assassination attempts on Franklin. It would have been too too bad. It genuinely would have been just too bad. Because again, like in Parliament the whole time, a lot of people don't like to talk about this is they assume that once the war starts like like.
Like the people who are like trying to end the wars of small voice and pilot it? Not really. Like they're pretty fucking vocal. It's not like a fringe group. It's not half, but it's not a fringe amount that's saying like, we don't want a war with the colonies even during the war. So I genuinely think it's, to put it short, it would have been, it's nothing that they wanted to do. If there was considerations for it, I, again, I have to do research into it. I don't know, but.
I genuinely think that would have just been a horrible decision. It's literally shooting themselves in the foot about like the end. It's almost like this prolific thing of like, well, there's the end of the British empire and all of our success that was so symbolized in a figure that it's so public. So.
Lindsay (48:26.856)
I think also, so, you know, I think it would have been a PR catastrophe. It would have made him into a martyr, which would have been very unbeneficial. But I think that also, even though, you know, he wasn't recognized initially as a, an ambassador, there were, there was a set of laws of, what is it, law of nations. There were international rules governing trade and,
Kelsa Pellettiere (48:33.421)
Mm -hmm.
Lindsay (48:56.68)
diplomacy and, you know, like for example, in 1799, when John Adams sends his new peace commission to go treat with France, they basically say that, you know, they give extremely broad discretion, but they say like, it cannot abridge the law of nations. And one of the big concerns early on in his presidency was the insult paid to the ministers of the United States was an insult to American sovereignty.
And if there was physical insult, if they were attacked, if they were assaulted in some way, that was a declaration of war. And so while I don't think anyone was willing to necessarily, sorry, fiddling with things, I don't think that anyone was necessarily willing to record Franklin that, quite that status. I think there were unspoken rules, which, I mean, we still to a certain extent have today. If we look at the news, you know, there was a huge, um,
60 minutes story about the new conclusions about the attacks on soldiers and foreign agents by probably this Russian force that use microwave technology basically to cause brain injury. And the reason that is an outrage is because there is still a certain level of respect for foreign actors on foreign soil if they're operating in a diplomatic.
Kelsa Pellettiere (50:08.077)
Oh yeah, I forgot about that.
Kelsa Pellettiere (50:26.957)
And building off of that, that's also one of the things that I love that's depicted in the series is the scenes with Lord Stormont going to Virgin. Like, why are you entertaining or not going out of your way to shut down this American? Because again, it's a proportional response thing. Exactly, it's a sign of disrespect. It's against the law of nations. I represent the King of England. You know we are at war with our colonists. You should not be entertaining him. That is an act of aggression.
Lindsay (50:43.816)
It's disrespect. It's a sign of disrespect. Yeah.
Kelsa Pellettiere (50:56.333)
You look as though you are aiding and abetting an enemy of my country, which I'm trying to coalesce back to being a submissive and you're entertaining this? That's again exactly what Lindsey said, like the law of nations. Elijah Gold's book is like everything in my brain right now about treaty worthiness. Everyone should read that.
Jason Herbert (51:15.632)
I actually want to move on actually to this idea of because there's a moment here. First of all, it's really interesting to watch a Louis the 16th with a head. I found that that was a real that's been a real.
That's been an uncommon depiction of him in American media, so that's kind of neat. There are a couple things going on with Louis, and I actually want to talk about them. Maybe it's his final big point as we kind of talk about this episode. First of all, one of the things I really enjoy is seeing how young a lot of these actors on this stage really are. Louis is not particularly, you know, he's not at all... We see in the first three episodes, he's very reluctant.
Lindsay (51:31.016)
Mm -hmm.
Kelsa Pellettiere (51:31.213)
True!
Kelsa Pellettiere (51:39.341)
I got opinions.
Jason Herbert (51:56.656)
very almost dismissive of the American cause. Quite literally, does not want to go down the route of like, his predecessor lost Canada, right? And a lot of these guys are concerned with their legacy. There's an understanding we're going to be at back at war with England at some point in time, but when and where and so forth. At the same time, he seems to also flip on this episode. So much of this episode as we're talking about today, seems to be these decision points.
Lindsay (52:09.096)
you
Lindsay (52:20.808)
Thank you.
Jason Herbert (52:25.008)
When Luis says, okay, it just felt like I thought me perhaps this series was gonna draw out this March to French engagement with colonies. We're episode four and Luis like, all right, we're in, let's go. Game on, right? And we conclude this episode and it's almost, it's anticlimactic. You're okay, you're good. You made your stage, away.
Kelsa Pellettiere (52:47.277)
I was waiting for you to say that. For me, I was like, it made sense, but I'm like, Jason's gonna hate this. A lot of viewers I was like, are like not gonna like this point. Oh, okay, so I have opinions.
Jason Herbert (52:57.424)
Well, the colony is not the center of the French imp, or not the center of the French world, right? And that's the other thing that I hope that people are taking away when they study these engagements, is that we're talking about a portion of the world. And these guys are looking at global colonies. This is only a slice of the world. So, Kelsa, Leslie, can you maybe kind of talk a little bit about the French perspective? Is there looking at this at all? What are your thoughts as far as Louis? What's he evident? And ultimately, he finally gives the
the go ahead here. Is it Saratoga? Is it something else? What's going on here?
Lindsay (53:34.088)
So I think, you know, like one of my favorite things about studying John Adams' time abroad is he comes away with this deep conviction that Europeans could not care less about the United States. They're useful, they're interested in the United States so long as it is useful to them in some way, but they do not care. They are not interested. They are far more focused on these centuries old conflicts between the European empires.
They're constantly feuding between each other. They're going to make decisions that do not factor in the well -being of the United States, even if the United States is an ally. And that's a really important conviction because it shapes how he thinks about their actions. It shapes how he thinks about how they approach the United States, how they approach diplomacy. It's why he's way less trusting to France than Jefferson is later on because he's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. There's no, like, benevolent interest in.
and looking out for them as a fairy godmother, that is not happening. And that's very much true in the revolutionary context because they saw Europe as the center of the globe and there were different offshoots. There were the North American colonies, which they were interested in maintaining as a market, not necessarily because they were super rich or valuable for themselves, but as a place to sell goods.
Kelsa Pellettiere (54:34.189)
Absolutely.
Lindsay (54:55.208)
They were far more interested in the Caribbean because that's where the money was to be made. And Britain was increasingly interested in India and certain parts of Africa as places to export resources. And France, of course, was shooting with them over all of those things. They were also particularly, what I like about that moment, even though it feels anticlimactic, is we forget now because even the monarchies that still exist today,
they tend to be constitutional monarchies. And so they're very limited and often the monarchs are very much sort of figureheads or their heads of states. They don't have a whole lot of governing roles. So perhaps I think an autocrat is almost a better example, but these were total monarchies at the time. They had complete power. And so whatever they said went, especially in France, cause it was very much an ancient regime. And so it's actually super accurate to have the king spin on a dime and for that to feel like whiplash and be like, but.
what, why, and whatever he said went. And so in some ways it's actually a super accurate reflection and it's why they got into so many stupid ass wars because it was just up to the king's whim. And I'm not saying like just the French king, there were a lot of stupid kings that had the desire to fight and wanted to have glory. And they were concerned about dynastic glory and maintaining the land of their forefathers and not being the king that brought it all down, which unfortunately Louis was.
Kelsa Pellettiere (56:19.789)
fully agree with everything that Lindsay said. And as somebody who for my MA thesis, I got to read a lot of the like, documents that that were they literally wrote essays back and forth to each other about trying to persuade Maripa, who's like the equivalent of like the chief of staff to the president under Louis the 16th, at the time, because he's an old he's an old fuck at this point, um, still super respected and everything like this, but literally, um, um,
Gérald who shows up in this episode as like the another like he's actually equivalent of like secretary of the Navy or like minister of the Navy in France and then underneath Virgin Him and Virgin write a series of essays literally trying to convince Louis the 16th to get involved in this war in Turgot Who is the finance minister at the time is we're hearing them say like Necker or whatever. It's like he doesn't come to later Actually, he's like doing something else at the time but you're good
Lindsay (57:15.272)
They also completely erased Silas Dean who must have... he's rolling over in his grave. Side note.
Kelsa Pellettiere (57:20.429)
Absolutely, I know they do they do I have a whole a thing. I understand why I do it because the shit with him and Lee Would be too distracting But also like I wanted to watch that bullshit. Like it would have been very very funny to watch but um
Lindsay (57:30.088)
Totally.
Lindsay (57:36.776)
another it's like another series altogether almost.
Kelsa Pellettiere (57:40.013)
That would be, PBS, pick that up. All the bullshit for Sally Steen and the concept of his honor in US history about was he just a war profiteer or not, along with Robert Morris's role in the war. I'm just saying that would be, I'd watch the shit out of that. Let me watch that. I probably am. No, Jason will watch it.
Lindsay (57:54.024)
You might be the only one.
Jason Herbert (57:56.56)
Yeah, most Americans are going, who?
Kelsa Pellettiere (58:01.261)
Oh my God. Anyway, so there's a whole bunch of... You actually would find Dean's experience very entertaining, I think, Jason. But yeah, they have a whole bunch of essays that go back and forth trying to convince the king over time. And the thing that they do agree on is weirdly enough, like they make a joke about this in the thing. They like, why did he, Vergennes is like, why did you help? He said he was fine with it as long as he didn't raise taxes. That's good for us, makes us look good. That's not exactly true.
Lindsay (58:01.352)
for a nap.
Jason Herbert (58:03.984)
Yeah, yeah, Dr. Herbert, Dr. Herbert's taking a nappy nap, so.
Kelsa Pellettiere (58:29.677)
the whole debate between Virgin and Turgo on the back channels is that Turgo's like, we can never publicly support the United States, even though it would be hugely beneficial to Hurt England. Because we are too broke. We can give them secret aid, which that means we have we can have limits and not hard like things of like promises of money to them. So absolutely, let's send them secret aid the entire time as long as they want, because we can be like, it's too obvious, not enough right now. We have other things.
because there's no guarantee of money to be moved. But the whole time, Vergen's like, yes, he's doing all this back -channeling shit that we're seeing in the show, but he's like actively trying to persuade Louis more than is let on. But the thing that is accurate still is that there was no necessary thing that he would just listen to that. And the, just the...
changing his mind one day thing that Lindsay said is basically kind of what happens. Because the whole time, Louis, my understanding from these documents, it's like you have to take them with a grain of salt too, like they've been edited to then be shared publicly still in a lot of ways down the road, like archival bias, all these things that you have to keep aware of as an historian. But the concept has always been there, like Louis was like.
I'm a young king, I don't really know what's going on, doesn't want to seem like he doesn't know what's going on. My advisors say we can't afford this war, but oh, to get back at the English later after this huge battle and our people love them, I want my people to love me, like that undertone that shows through in the show, accurate, very, very accurate in that little respect. But yeah, definitely anti -climatic. The whole time I'm like, accurate.
Just one day deciding he's doing that. The fact, I won't lie, the fact that he's taking that long on the same damn lock for like a year and a half basically in the timeline of those four episodes is fascinating to me.
Lindsay (01:00:27.176)
Can I have a very, I have a sartorial question. Did it surprise either of you that like when he's working on his locks, he has white hair and like, looked a lot younger and then all of a sudden he's, when he's in the receiving room then has the long, yeah, I was like, wait, is this the same person?
Kelsa Pellettiere (01:00:30.317)
Mm -hmm.
Kelsa Pellettiere (01:00:40.781)
And then the long hair shit when he beats Franklin? I thought he was weird.
Jason Herbert (01:00:44.848)
It took me a second to recognize him. Exact, exact same. I thought to you, I was like, wait, is this, is this Jack Black now? Is what I was, yeah, it was, it was different. Um.
Kelsa Pellettiere (01:00:48.397)
Yeah, I - I was gonna -
Lindsay (01:00:48.968)
What was that about?
Lindsay (01:00:54.024)
Was that weird?
Kelsa Pellettiere (01:00:55.789)
Holy crap, I can't unsee that now. No, I thought it was weird too. Because also like the energy between those different scenes is so drastic too. Like the energy that him meeting Franklin to me is more accurate what I've read about Louis. Yes, he was a weird dude and like to like he liked navigation and making things and clocks and stuff. That's all accurate. But the like maturity and all the earlier scenes that we've seen of him was weird to me the entire time.
Lindsay (01:01:06.44)
Mmm. Mm -hmm.
Lindsay (01:01:24.456)
Yeah.
Kelsa Pellettiere (01:01:25.837)
And I was just like, okay, like this came up on the first episode, first podcast. I was like, Craig, was that like supposed to be Maripal Too Young or Louie with a wig? Like I couldn't tell. It was weird to me from the context and everything. But yeah, no, you're not the only one. I was like, what the hell is this? This is such a deterrent, a distraction. And like, where did this, where was this guy the whole time? It was very weird. It was very abrupt. Fully agree with you on that. I did a double take when I saw that in the series.
Jason Herbert (01:01:56.304)
Yeah, and again, just because as listeners are in and you guys are probably familiar if you're listening in now, we talked a little bit last episode about the speed or lack of speed of communication across channel. Now you've got to actually create these. You've got to you've got to field weapons. You've got to you've got to create ships. Just because the French have decided to engage in this war, there's a tremendous amount of time in which the colonies can still lose this this very young war as well. And I guess we're going to see that going forward. So.
That leaves me maybe, as we're kind of work towards wrapping up here, we started to see a little bit of intrigue regarding Franklin's grandson, some stuff going on. What are we looking forward to? We've already introduced our new villain, John Adams. Wait, he's not a villain. What are we, as...
Lindsay (01:02:25.96)
you
Lindsay (01:02:42.952)
Ha ha ha ha!
Kelsa Pellettiere (01:02:44.365)
But depending on who you talk to, he is a villain, actually. Depending on who you talk to, he is a villain. But overall, no. Good interest at heart, just bad execution.
Jason Herbert (01:02:50.832)
As we move forward here, we're four episodes in this episode. Already four episodes in this episode. I think this series is 10, I think episodes long or so. Maybe nine. Nine, I think. What are we looking forward to happen in the immediate future? If you guys can kind of tell us, hey, as we start to channel in to watch next week, what are you looking for?
See what happens next on this series.
Lindsay (01:03:22.536)
Well, I think obviously I'm very curious to see.
Jason Herbert (01:03:24.432)
Kelsa, do you want to go first? I was going to have, let's see, I was going to finish you going off. Either way, I'm not going to tell you what to do.
Kelsa Pellettiere (01:03:30.061)
No, I'll talk to you long. I will talk to you long. I want Lindsay to go first. I need to be short and succinct like her.
Jason Herbert (01:03:35.6)
Go, Lizzie.
Lindsay (01:03:36.808)
So I am obviously looking forward to seeing how they present John Adams going forward, if they continue this like very aggressive, almost like pirate style portrayal. You're gonna have some real whiplash when I go from that to John Adams in July. You know, Macaulay John Adams. So I'm looking forward to that. I think that will be really interesting. I think the dynamic will be really interesting. I think the -
One of the problems that they've set up that I think is going to be a challenge is they've set up Franklin to appear to be hardworking, like he's repairing his press. He's up late doing that. He's working hard. And so it's going to make the genuine conflict that did the cultural conflict that did exist between Adams and Franklin, I think, kind of appear out of nowhere. The second piece that I'm really interested in is.
the role of Bencroft, Edward Bencroft, who is the friend, doctor, spy that is in Franklin's household. And this was a figure that I will admit that I was not particularly all that familiar with. And so I had been doing some reading and some accounts suggest that historians were not really aware of his duplicity until like the 1880s. But Bernard Baylin, who was, you know, like an all time great in the field.
felt like there were times that the letters really suggest that Franklin actually knew what was happening and was sort of using the duplicity intentionally, like feeding either information that would be harmful to the British or intentionally revealing things to put pressure on the French. So it'll be very interesting to see which take they approach and how they present to Franklin's knowledge of that. It almost in this last episode when the French
minister comes or the French spy master comes and no, the British spy master comes and meets with Franklin and asks about negotiating and Franklin says no, and he but he wants to be in craft there. It almost seemed like they were starting to hint at that. So that's going to be a dynamic that I'm really looking forward to. Also, I want to know which one of the elderly broads he spends more time with. That was not a nice way to say that.
Jason Herbert (01:05:39.056)
Mm -hmm.
Kelsa Pellettiere (01:05:47.373)
No, it's accurate, it's accurate, it's accurate, Lindsay.
Lindsay (01:05:49.)
Well, neither of them are elderly. They're they are lovely and well, what is lovely? What is? The what is the dishwasher woman was that what she was the wash woman? Okay. I really like Briong and she's delightful and she is She is a delightful composer and she is very talented and sweet. I hope that he spends more time
Jason Herbert (01:05:50.384)
It's a historical term, Lindsay.
Kelsa Pellettiere (01:05:59.181)
The washer - woman or whatever. Wash woman.
Kelsa Pellettiere (01:06:05.293)
Thank you, that's the correct answer. I was like, Elincia, you wanna go fight otherwise?
Kelsa Pellettiere (01:06:17.197)
You'll there I'm actually curious how they're gonna do that, too I want to answer this and then touch on something before we wrapped up just because like I've been dying to talk about brilliant more for this episode Things I'm looking forward to the most a fully agree with Lindsay how they're gonna portray Bancroft because one of the things that would have been the catalysts were Where that direction would go would be if Arthur Lee and Dean were there? Because Arthur Lee was always suspicious of Bancroft the entire time that
He was there before they were all recalled and shit. So because you don't have that person to be the catalyst for this whole thing, again, it would have distracted from the Franklin focus narrative. But for listeners who don't know, there's a whole writing campaign between Arthur Lee saying Franklin's complicit because our Bancroft's definitely up to something, Dean's up to something because of all this war profiteering. All of them are actually bad because he's a huge paranoid guy, great spy in England.
Bad diplomat. Lee was a horrible diplomat. His training by nature made him a bad diplomat. His biographer says so and I agree with them. So because you don't have Lee, I am like, where are they gonna go with the Bancroft angle? Like for me, I'm like, I'm spoiled by that. I don't know how they get that to go unless he just fucks up somehow and Franklin gets to be savvy on the no. But there's also this issue because down the road,
Lindsay (01:07:27.144)
Thank you.
Kelsa Pellettiere (01:07:43.341)
um early on while in france still franklin's writing in defense of bangcroft so it was on to me that
they're showing that and because again like i'm not gonna argue bernard baylens bernard baylen um and franklin probably was some awareness but it is interesting though back this early on and like i want to say it's till like 1780 1789 he's like writing in defense of dean and bangcroft and i always wondered if he's doing this just to try to keep them from infighting because of the mission that they have at that point because they still need to seem like a unified front or there's something else at play
I don't have the answer there, but fully agree with Lindsay because because Lee's not there, how do you go about the Bancroft situation? That's interesting. I am interested to see some stuff with the grandson. I look that man's a great actor. I'm not interested in Temple's story personally, mostly because I know what happens to him later. I'm uninterested in him as a human being, not the actor, but the character.
I don't like William Temple Franklin there, I've said it. What the hell? Oh no, he gets my Lindsay. He's more than a fucking brat down the road. He's a little shit. He's a fucking shithead. He's a fucking shithead in real life. Um, and I don't, I won't lie. Like I like that guy as an actor. I don't like he's too baby faced or how in my head, how Temple looks or even behaves. Yeah. He's like white behind, like, you know, like what, what is it like white, white behind the ears a little bit when he gets to France. He's not that.
Lindsay (01:08:52.456)
It's kind of a brat.
Lindsay (01:09:10.408)
Hmm.
Lindsay (01:09:20.488)
Mm -hmm.
Jason Herbert (01:09:20.528)
Wet behind the ears.
Kelsa Pellettiere (01:09:22.381)
Thank you, wet behind the ears when he gets to France. He's not that incompetent though. Because he's just like his dad, just like his grandpa. He likes the ladies. So there's a whole thing that happens later. So I just don't like the... They, yeah, actually. But the other thing I'm interested is also how they're gonna portray Berlion and Helvetius. Because spoiler, no one knows this, but down the road,
Lindsay (01:09:26.024)
Yeah.
Lindsay (01:09:35.24)
pox on both their houses.
Kelsa Pellettiere (01:09:50.605)
Franklin does propose to Helvetius the whole time in her salon. Him and her go hang out flirting with her. And he actually proposed to her and she says, no, I cannot. Well, I love you. I love my husband. I do not want to offend his soul in the afterlife kind of thing. Kind of weird nonsense shit. He always tries to sleep with Breon. She never tries to sleep with him. The angle that they're going is that she's going to try to sleep with him. That's incorrect.
Um, everything I've read says she will never fucking sleep with him. Uh, so I'm again though, it's a good I do for good TV though. I love the dynamic they're setting up for that. It's it is good for good. It's great TV. It's great TV. Um, but what is also I'm interested in is how it's kind of like, how do they go from here also with the Adams angle because
one of the reasons that Franklin and Adams come into conflict with each other. Yes, it's the French culture shit that I was in saying this whole episode that we're talking, but also the Lee and Bancroft and Dean angle plays into that breakup of a friendship and everything. So it's like, so are you just nipping this in the ass and making just Adams a complete asshole the entire time from the beginning of the end of episode four? That's not accurate at all, though. Like, again, like Lindsey said, it's very easy to just make
Lindsay (01:10:50.312)
Thank you.
Lindsay (01:11:14.76)
Mm -hmm.
Kelsa Pellettiere (01:11:17.869)
John Adams an asshole in a grouch. I don't like that. So like if they do that, that's probably gonna be my biggest criticism overall. Like you can get past like certain casting things. Cause again, Tom Wilkinson is to me Franklin. Douglas definitely is Douglas, but I do like sometimes his portrayal. It's mostly the voice that kind of always reminds me it's Douglas and not Franklin. But I feel like that's also me Douglas. Cause I just like Douglas. But yeah, I think moving forward, it's going to literally be like,
How are they going to portray Franklin and Adams' relationship? Especially if he comes in with this haughty -taughty attitude and everything, because again, like Lindsay knows this, that's not indicative of John Adams. In France, he tries to learn some stuff with France. Gets a little butt -hurt down the road with some of it, and again, becomes this impatient Puritan, which again, understandable. He wants Boston to be safe and doesn't understand the cultural stuff, but he's not.
coming out guns blazing, being a jerk. So if they do that to John, I'm gonna be kind of upset. Like that will be, in my opinion, like the biggest like, this kind of fucking ruins it for me. That would be probably my biggest criticism of that. Again, I don't like John Adams, but that's doing him dirty if they do that.
Lindsay (01:12:33.224)
Jason, what are you looking for?
Jason Herbert (01:12:38.928)
I have to imagine with an actor with the range of Eddie Marsan who I've seen a bunch of stuff and he's every time I was saying this earlier, I've always liked his work. I think he's really terrific. If I would imagine that what we got was a teaser tonight or for that episode. I think we're going to get a much more nuanced version of Adams than maybe we're afraid of what we're going to see just because he's such a talented capable. Even if the.
Even if the character were poorly written, I can't imagine that a guy as talented as he is would not interject. You know, the, you know, Adams and I don't know Adams as well as the two of you, right? But Adams is not a single emotion. He's not a single, you know, anything like that. He has a, you know, he is an incredibly nuanced guy himself, right? And maybe that's what we did not see as much of in that Adams series. So hopefully, you know,
Kelsa Pellettiere (01:13:30.637)
Okay.
Jason Herbert (01:13:36.624)
I don't know. We'll see. That's what I'm looking forward to seeing. Again, I'm not really interested in the Temple storyline. That's the reason why we didn't really talk about it tonight. And frankly, I don't care about Adam's sex life. I see enough of old people and their sex lives in the news right now. So we'll see where this goes. You know.
Kelsa Pellettiere (01:13:57.101)
I hope you edit out that squeal laugh I just made, Jesus. Oh my god. I'm so sorry listeners.
Lindsay (01:14:00.424)
Meh.
Jason Herbert (01:14:00.656)
Unfortunately not. So that said, we're going to wrap it up here. Let's see. Chubisky. Guess I'm Palatianic. See what I got better this time now. I did the thing with the hand.
Kelsa Pellettiere (01:14:13.581)
I think you put it more and more as an accent. Honestly, my ancestors were appreciating this. Thank you.
Jason Herbert (01:14:19.984)
That's good. I don't know. So guys, thank you so very much for being here. And guys, everybody, thank you guys so much for coming in to listen to this podcast, for sharing this with your friends, enemies and neighbors. Sometimes all three will have more stuff for you coming this week. So any last words, Kelsa, Lindsey?
Kelsa Pellettiere (01:14:20.685)
Ugh.
Kelsa Pellettiere (01:14:44.141)
excited to see where the series is gonna go. Thank you for being here, Lindsay.
Lindsay (01:14:47.816)
Huzzah.
Jason Herbert (01:14:51.056)
That's perfect. All right guys, ciao for now.