Emergency Pod: The Majesty of Andor with Dr. Alan Malfavon

Andor is the greatest Star Wars we've ever seen on any screen and it's not close. My close friend Alan Malfavon joins in to talk about the brilliance of this show, what it means to us, and what we hope to see next.

About our guest:

Alan Malfavon resituates Mexico’s socio-political, cultural, and economic networks with the Atlantic World and the Greater Caribbean, and it dissects and problematizes those networks by centering the Black and Afro-Mexican experience. His research interrogates and subverts archival silences that have erased Black and Afro-Mexican agency from narratives of Mexican identity and nation-state formation, seeking to diversify these narratives by foregrounding the voices, perspectives, and actions of Afro-descendants.

Transcript

Jason Herbert (00:00.776)
Hey everybody. Welcome back to historians at the movies podcast. you're hosting creator Jason Herbert. And every single week we are talking about movies and the histories behind them. And today we're not doing either one of those things. I am joined today with my buddy, Alan Malfavon. Buddy, we are talking, we are, we are in a state tonight of grief. This is, this is not a produced episode. This is going to be raw for if you're listening in, you've already read the title of this.

Alan Malfavon (00:20.566)
Of grief, yes.

Alan Malfavon (00:28.398)
Right.

Jason Herbert (00:29.512)
We're going to be spoiling everything. We're talking. We're working through some stuff tonight. The first thing I need to show you, my friend, is my mini Diego. I picked him up at the other day at the store. had to. I have to. So if you're listening in, this is me holding my three and three quarter inch Diego Luna. Like Cassie Nandor, who is now so high up in my chain of Star Wars figures. I can't even.

Alan Malfavon (00:36.398)
Okay, you got it.

Alan Malfavon (00:42.391)
Yeah, yeah.

Alan Malfavon (00:49.422)
Excellent.

Jason Herbert (00:58.184)
He's up there, man. I actually have, think, my three favorite figures here on the two walls. All right, let's talk for a second. You and I, we're recording this late on Wednesday night. watched last night. Yesterday, we watched the series finale of Andor, and then probably half of Rogue One afterwards.

Alan Malfavon (01:00.078)
and then.

Alan Malfavon (01:05.538)
Let's do it.

Alan Malfavon (01:10.43)
Wednesday? Yeah.

Alan Malfavon (01:19.758)
I'm watching that tonight actually, so.

Jason Herbert (01:21.618)
Buddy, just let it go. Last night I was like, I'm just going to watch. I had to like, I had to, I had to get into it. I had to see him again, especially after everything had happened. all right. We made a pact yesterday not to talk and we talk almost every day. What are your thoughts? How are you feeling right now? We have not, you and I have not spoken about this other, up until till just now. So how do you feel knowing that it's over? What are your thoughts on Andor writ large?

Alan Malfavon (01:25.544)
You

Alan Malfavon (01:36.812)
With it, with it.

Alan Malfavon (01:43.199)
We have not.

Alan Malfavon (01:52.962)
So I'll give you the short answer first, like the feeling answer, and then I'll give you the thoughts as in the feeling. It's a mix of elated but also devastated. Elated in the sense that we got something so artistically intricate, something so incredibly dramatic in the Star Wars universe, but also devastated that it's come to an end, right? So that's the feelings portion.

Jason Herbert (01:55.002)
Okay, please. Okay.

Alan Malfavon (02:21.75)
My thoughts on Andor and this is not an auto-atapia, an exaggeration. It's just wow, right? It's just like probably the best Star Wars content I have memory of, right? We have this conversation, right? You're as an OT fan, me as a PT fan, right? We have our agreements and disagreements, right? We agree that they're much better than the sequel trilogy. That's for sure, right?

Jason Herbert (02:47.889)
We don't have to bring that up, but go on. Yeah.

Alan Malfavon (02:50.346)
Right, right, right. But for the viewers and listeners, just clarify that.

Jason Herbert (02:52.679)
Sure, yes. Where you and I are at? I'm an original, I'm a holy trilogy guy, you're a prequel trilogy guy, but we're Star Wars guys. We both grew up in, bathed in the religion. So yeah, okay, so you're saying.

Alan Malfavon (02:57.07)
Right. Of course. Of course.

Alan Malfavon (03:05.557)
Absolutely.

Yeah, so like I was saying, it's just, I don't know, man, it's just the writing of a character that back in 2016, I thought it was like, it's a great character, right? Mexicans in space, let's go, finally, right? But after that, we never had any shape, form or idea of how such a side character will become so damn important for the galaxy of Star Wars, right? And not only him, but all these new characters are, one might think, peripheral.

to story of Luke, Leia and the rebellion. I guess we're going to get into that. But the way by which Gilroy and the writing team and the production team of the show has centered them as the pillars of the Rebel Alliance and the history of Star Wars in the original trilogy, that to me just blew my mind. That's, guess, how I can communicate the answer that I just got asked by you.

Jason Herbert (03:59.462)
Yeah. Okay. So I want to echo your thoughts here because, I'm, I'm filled with grief because it's over because there's no more and or the character is dead. Right. So, my God. Right. I've filled with elation because of what we watched, like you and I've done some real hard thinking on this because

Alan Malfavon (04:12.152)
To that, toast to to Andrew season 2. Salute!

Jason Herbert (04:26.791)
for people listening in. I kind of said this the other night. I was born in 1977. My dad literally wouldn't watch the movie the day I was born, which is probably not the best thing. So I grew up, and we moved around a lot, and I didn't have a lot of friends growing up. What I did have was this idea of this galaxy far, far away. And I would remember, I would go inward as a child.

And like when I was lonely or whatever, there was Star Wars was always there. It was always waiting for me as a little boy, you know, in the eighties. And then, you know, there was this into the early nineties, you you got really this revival through the Timothy Zahn books. There was this really cool stuff with the West End games role playing stuff. If you got into that, there was some really cool literature that was kind of not on screen, but still gave us some stuff. You know, it was like there was always the idea of Star Wars.

Alan Malfavon (05:04.429)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Herbert (05:19.567)
right this place you know you could you could you could go to and you know this the film since then have been hit and missed for a variety of different reasons and I I was saying this earlier today it was a colleague I was like even when the sequel trilogy there are parts that are really good but you know it's like you know it's just not there it's it's a wholesome it's a mess and so Rogue One comes out 2016 and you know you and I have spoken about this

Alan Malfavon (05:20.174)
Right.

Alan Malfavon (05:35.118)
As a whole, right? As a whole, it's a block.

Jason Herbert (05:48.04)
It's like, you know what? We were watching. It's just like, okay, this is good. This is a standalone film. good. It's better than it probably should be. You know? But all right, it's two hours and they're rewriting the Kyle Katarn series and stuff like we're going down. We're going right. It's like, okay, whatever. Notably, Cassie Nandor uses Kyle Katarn's pistol. you noticed this in the thing? Yes, sir. Right. So I'm one of my favorite Jedi. So

Alan Malfavon (06:02.667)
Okay, we're

Alan Malfavon (06:08.074)
I the briar. Yes. Yes.

Jason Herbert (06:17.669)
And then I'll say, we're going to make an Andor series. I'm like, why? Why do we do we need it more? More Disney money grabbing.

And then we watched it.

And all I could think as I watched through Andorra season one was this was the best Star Wars I'd ever seen on any screen ever. And that's hard to say because I Empire is one of the best movies ever made. Period. And then you're worried. You're like, OK, season two is going to come out. How are they ever going to even make something as quality a season?

Alan Malfavon (06:40.664)
Right?

Jason Herbert (06:57.095)
You know, we have, you know, we talk about all this, you know, there's one way out there. You know, I can't swim. Never more than like the quote, you know, the Lutheran's speech, though, what have I sacrificed? Everything. Marlis, I watched I watched it this morning as I was making breakfast. It's so good, right? So you're worried that season two is not going to stand out.

Alan Malfavon (07:11.596)
Right? Marvis, Marvis dialog. Yeah.

off

Jason Herbert (07:26.543)
Alan, it's better. It's better.

Alan Malfavon (07:32.11)
If I may, Jason, I would say it's not just better. It's a complete evolution on the show and the dynamics, right? Because I don't know if you noticed this, right? Season 1 felt so good because it was very kind of constrained to not only a budget, which you could see in the production, which is great, but also which allowed for a story to be so basically dense, specific on these new characters, right? It's tight. This is that tight emphasis.

Jason Herbert (07:33.531)
Go ahead.

Jason Herbert (07:48.913)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Herbert (07:53.959)
was tight.

Alan Malfavon (07:59.874)
But with all the world building and context that George Lucas was famous for in the original and prequel trilogy, but also with a drama and dialogue of series of the likes, I would say like Breaking Bad, Like the same kind of writing like Vince Gilligan in Breaking Bad. mean, Gilroy outdid himself, in my opinion, in some of these dialogue lines and some of these dynamics between the characters, to be honest.

Jason Herbert (08:02.075)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Herbert (08:11.686)
Yeah.

Jason Herbert (08:23.367)
Well, you know, the thing that I love so much, and I was listening to an interview with Gilroy earlier, like, he's like, didn't have to care about Star Wars. He's like, I didn't have to respect it. I just wanted to write the story that I knew to be true, that happened to be set in the Star Wars universe, right? And the thing that separates Gilroy's writing from everything else we've seen is his trust in the audience.

Alan Malfavon (08:42.222)
I

Jason Herbert (08:53.511)
to allow us to see and feel for these characters, even the small characters. We know out there that there's a young Luke and a young Leia growing up. A lot of stuff's taking place during the Obi-Wan. The fantasy elements are out there. They're out there doing their thing. But the phenomenal aspect of Andor was like, what if regular people? What do regular people do who are not wizards, who don't feel the power of destiny? What do you do? And the Empire is not this...

This maniacal, okay, there's the idea of the emperors out there. We never once saw a lightsaber in this series. Didn't have to. The things I loved was like, the power of the empire was represented by a single tie fighter strafing over a field. It was just there. Right?

Alan Malfavon (09:37.08)
right? Or bureaucratic mismanagement, right? When Cassian gets into Narcena 5, right? an increase in the correctional facility, right? Because we're increasing the, what's it called? The offenses for just being caught, right? With no documentation, with no identification, right? Six years, Narcena 5. It's like, well, it's, yeah, yeah.

Jason Herbert (09:54.748)
Yep, that's where you're Yeah, it's so real. It's so real and it's so raw. The thing I dug about season two, don't know how you felt about this. Season two focused even somehow less on Andor, on Cassian himself, right? And all of these side characters in season one became leading characters.

Alan Malfavon (10:00.877)
It is.

Jason Herbert (10:23.045)
Like even Luthen was kind of back, kind of played down a lot in season two. And there are characters coming out of the mix here, especially in season two that are just like, you know, Cleo.

Alan Malfavon (10:36.622)
Oh my god, that episode is just... Episode 10, by the way, Season 2, Episode 10 for those that are already listening. It's just... I was not expecting that story, to be quite honest with you. Yeah. Yeah. Basically the backstory of the manager of this whole underbelly of rebellion and sedition across the galaxy, right? And it's an incredible backstory because I was not expecting any of that.

Jason Herbert (10:39.228)
Dude.

Jason Herbert (10:46.639)
No, no, we had an indoor episode with no indoor. Not at all.

Jason Herbert (11:04.945)
Cause he's just some guy to start. He's deserter.

Alan Malfavon (11:06.892)
Right. Some guy that has PTSD from being forced to commit genocide in some godforsaken planet, probably the outer rim or something, right? The start of the empire, right? And as he deals with his inner demons, right, he fights little Clea as a stowaway trying to survive this genocide that he has enabled. Right. And I think, you said, Jason, this notion of real, right, that connects so much to our humanity in the real world. Right. And I think that's why the public has loved not just Star Wars fans, but critics too, right?

They have loved this dynamic of how we see ourselves reflected in this galaxy far, far away, right? And how that medium can also tell us so much in lessons and in learning for us as people, right?

Jason Herbert (11:48.988)
Yeah, so much of this. Man, they're so hard. OK, let's do the thing here. I was trying to write down earlier, who is the MVP of season two of Andor? Right?

Alan Malfavon (11:56.974)
Mm-hmm.

Alan Malfavon (12:01.014)
Oof.

Jason Herbert (12:05.549)
I don't have Diego Luna on my list. Like he's always there, he's carrying it. I don't want to give you my thing here, but if I would ask you point blank, who carries this season? Like who is the star of the season?

Alan Malfavon (12:05.752)
Good question.

Alan Malfavon (12:10.445)
Right.

Alan Malfavon (12:16.984)
Very.

Alan Malfavon (12:23.992)
Who is the star of this season? That is dumb hard question, right? Because one could make the argument that the character I'm going to mention to you didn't really play a huge part in these last three episodes. But to me, this is a character that we saw first only at Glypse in a couple of seasons of original trilogy. To me personally, the acting of this person is just magnificent and it just humanized

Jason Herbert (12:27.494)
Yeah.

Jason Herbert (12:34.631)
I know where going.

Alan Malfavon (12:53.39)
Chancellor Mothmuthma, Genevieve O'Reilly. mean, to me personally, acting is just out of this world.

Jason Herbert (12:56.359)
my god.

Jason Herbert (13:01.873)
Yeah, I knew exactly where you would not did not talk about this. I knew exactly where you're going to go with this.

Alan Malfavon (13:06.282)
No, we did not. By the way, we did not talk about this. It's like Monday that we're gonna do this that we we we did a self embargo on each other even texting. Hey, what's up? We're gonna do that.

Jason Herbert (13:14.949)
Nope. It's like, yeah. Genevieve O'Reilly, I think probably is, is probably the MVP of this season as well because she gets the best lines. I mean, she does rise to become the leader of the, of the rebellion more so than Luke, more so than Leia. She's the Kate, she's the administrator. She's, she's the one who, you know, does the heavy lifting here. And I was saying on a blue sky the other night, I'm like,

Alan Malfavon (13:27.811)
Yeah.

Jason Herbert (13:44.263)
Okay, you know what I want? I want Return of the Jedi. Oldie starring Mon Mothba. You know, you take any show, and this is what Gilligan does so well, like Breaking Bad, you can take a scenario.

Alan Malfavon (13:55.074)
If

Jason Herbert (13:58.17)
and this show said scenario through different perspectives, through different actors, right? Through different characters. What does Return of the Jedi look like if we're telling Return of the Jedi through Mon Motha's perspective? In other words, what is the behind the scenes thing where she's having to do the negotiation, where she's having to assemble, reassemble this fleet after the devastating effects of Empire? What does she have to like...

sitting on the bottom mission of all of this different stuff, right? And she's holding this stuff together. And maybe we see Luke and Leia and Han and Chewie across the room during the briefing because she's doing other stuff, right? Because this is about her and we could do it. Do you know she is within the same year as the original actor right now from Return of the Jedi?

Alan Malfavon (14:29.766)
Right.

Alan Malfavon (14:37.806)
Right, peripherally. Right.

Alan Malfavon (14:47.66)
Wolf.

Alan Malfavon (14:52.096)
Even just as you said, even if is not Retro the leading up to that year, right? That year between Empire and Retro the Jedi, right? Because we're talking, mean, you guys have been following the comics, right? The year, it's a period of complete rebuilding, right? Because after Death Star I, the Alliance gets almost wiped out, right? That's what Empire is basically about, right? It's almost total wiping out of the Alliance, and it's that build up.

Jason Herbert (14:55.781)
Yeah, yeah.

Jason Herbert (14:59.92)
Right.

Jason Herbert (15:08.155)
Mm-hmm.

Alan Malfavon (15:19.83)
And I think I 100 % agree with you, Jason, we can have a show with Genevieve O'Reilly, not only assembling and sending the Buffy spy mission, right? Maybe even sending the mission a code name like, and or command or something in honor of Casio, right? Like kind of like making those tie, those connections, those ties, but also, I mean, just the fact right of, of not knowing, right? Because we ultimately know that what happens with that story too is a trap by the Emperor, right? So, so also, how would she feel when she realizes that they've been

Jason Herbert (15:26.491)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Herbert (15:32.262)
Right?

Alan Malfavon (15:47.938)
brought into the trap, right? Like that is exactly.

Jason Herbert (15:49.928)
You want to see his cat and mouse game, think between between Ma and Mothma and Emperor Palpatine, who she is called, who she has called out in season two, right? Yeah. So how does she reassemble this thing after like we did this thing, we blew up the Death Star and then we just got our asses kicked and everybody wants to quit, right? How do I hold this together? Um, I'm going to give you two more characters here for season two. I want to give you two more, two more thoughts here.

Alan Malfavon (15:55.329)
Of course.

Yeah, yeah, the monster, the monster that comes for us all, right?

Alan Malfavon (16:09.931)
Literally.

Alan Malfavon (16:17.292)
Okay, okay.

Jason Herbert (16:21.103)
And it's almost like each of them holds a third of the series of the season two, okay? Episodes say the first third of season two. Adria is Bix.

Jason Herbert (16:39.399)
I here's the thing with a Georgia and I want to and I want to be complimentary and I don't want some condescending.

This woman is so super humanly beautiful. It's almost hard to think of texting. I did text you this. She's hard to look at. She is not human in some ways. Um, she's really good. She's a really good actress. She's the heart that she carries this with fighting, fighting through the drug use. Like she and Caskey and everything now like are again. And she, felt, Oh yeah.

Alan Malfavon (16:55.32)
Right.

Alan Malfavon (17:03.1)
Incredible actress,

Alan Malfavon (17:15.406)
The trouble of torture, right? The trouble for torture.

Jason Herbert (17:18.725)
I felt like she's the heart of the season two in so many different ways. You know, she was so amazing in this. So I don't want to miss out on the opportunity. The fact that this series ends with a shot of her of all people.

Alan Malfavon (17:21.486)
Thanks, guys.

Alan Malfavon (17:33.998)
That was heartbreaking. That shot was heartbreaking because what we know as an audience, right? What's going to happen to Cassie and the entire Rogue One unit?

Jason Herbert (17:42.908)
Right. I still think we needed it. Like, I think we needed to know Cassie and Sarah lives on in some form. Right. Now part of me is like, God damn it, Bix, why did you have to leave him? Like, take him with it. I will sacrifice the road. Like, I believe it. I believe in you guys now. I don't need rebellion. I just want Cassie and Bix to be happy. yeah, you know, but she's single now, right? I'm just saying.

Alan Malfavon (17:47.575)
I briefed.

Alan Malfavon (17:56.886)
You

Alan Malfavon (18:07.384)
to be happy.

Alan Malfavon (18:13.656)
Hey, look her up in the hole in it,

Jason Herbert (18:17.319)
Oh buddy, I was like, no, can't do that. I'm in trouble. She is the second most beautiful woman I can think of right now. She is just crazy and amazing actress. So I'm gonna stop talking about that. It's so bad. Elizabeth Dula as Claire Markey.

Alan Malfavon (18:32.728)
EEEE

Incredible.

Jason Herbert (18:36.316)
Where does this come from?

Alan Malfavon (18:41.358)
It's funny you mention that because as I am obsessed as a Star Wars obsessive fan that I have, I've been going on Reddit subreddits to look at other people's reactions. I kind of get into the conversation among other fans online and somebody did some deep dive research on the actress's CV, resume. And they basically, other than a short film, which was her debut back in 2020, and or season one and two are the only professional big budget or actual

professional gaffed-in credits in her career and I'm just like incredible this is is this is beyond incredible right

Jason Herbert (19:17.497)
It's like stepping up and knocking out a grand slam for your first at bat in baseball. You know, she's like this kind of character in the first and this is what I love, right? It's like the characters who were kind of in the periphery in that first season. She's, know, his assistant and she's kind of kind of hostile and kind of mean, right? And then you like you get this her just genuine love for Luther. She's a she goes full on born identity.

Alan Malfavon (19:37.293)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Herbert (19:47.143)
in the hospital. I'm like, I think I'm like, look, I know Cassian can't can't survive. They can't kill Clea. Why do I care so much about her? At the end of this.

Alan Malfavon (19:47.598)
OI

Alan Malfavon (19:57.774)
Honestly, at that point, I thought she was in danger. I'm not gonna lie to you, right? I thought she was in mortal danger.

Jason Herbert (20:03.077)
Yeah, totally. And here's the point. Star Wars largely has been a story about men. Leia and later Rey being the general exceptions, right?

And or has somehow made this show and showing right because Mon Moth is the leader of the season two is cared by women.

Alan Malfavon (20:32.206)
100%.

Jason Herbert (20:33.415)
carried by women. And they do it in such a way where it's like, never feels like fan service. It never feels like there's an objective. like, it was, and this is the credit to Gilroy where it's like, the writing is so organic. It's like, of course this is the way this would work out. This is, this is what you have incredibly capable, empowered women who can do things, right? Or people who, you know, it's.

Alan Malfavon (21:00.27)
I actually appreciate that when you say that about the role of women in Star Wars, right? I don't know about you, but Clea gave me a lot of vibes of what if Leia had been growing up lower class instead of a princess and really radical. It's that attitude, it's that decisiveness, it's that action, right? Every time Clea was telling like when Andrew was basically ready to quit in the third arc of the show and she was like, what are you talking about, right?

Jason Herbert (21:15.387)
Yeah.

Jason Herbert (21:28.667)
what we're doing.

Alan Malfavon (21:28.748)
this is what we're fighting for, to have the freedom of making our own choices. That's Leor Ghana, right? That is that, but in a more decisive way, right? In my opinion.

Jason Herbert (21:36.721)
Well, yeah, it is. you look, frankly, the three women here keep Cassian in line through the series. Bix constantly saying we have to win. If we're going to suffer, it has to be because we're going to win. We have to win here.

Alan Malfavon (21:45.922)
Right?

Alan Malfavon (21:54.19)
Which by the way, as Mexican myself, I gotta say that is very Mexican, the role of women in your family keeping you on track, man. That is like incredibly on point.

Jason Herbert (21:59.304)
Yeah

Jason Herbert (22:06.961)
Well, you know, so you've got her, you've got, then you've got Klaia saying, Hey, no, I mean, no, this, is why we're fighting. This is, this is, these are the reasons. And then my mother going, look, like if, if you, if Cassian, if you don't save her, all of this falls apart, it's not Luke, it's not Leah. It's not Han Chewie who, who, who are at risk of losing the rebellion. It's Mon Mothma. Dude, who we lose.

Alan Malfavon (22:33.965)
Okay.

Jason Herbert (22:35.899)
We've talked about so far two Hispanic actors. We've talked about Adria O'Jonah. We've talked obviously about Diego Luna. I want to ask you about another one. Benjamin Brad.

Alan Malfavon (22:52.27)
Off.

Jason Herbert (22:54.855)
I'm gonna say something that's awful.

Alan Malfavon (22:57.068)
All right, let's hear it. Then I'll check you on that, I guess.

Jason Herbert (22:59.909)
Benjamin Brad is my Bail Organa. All respect to Jimmy Smiths, who I love. Love Jimmy Smiths. Benjamin Brad is my, I'm right or die with Benjamin Brad is Bail Organa.

Alan Malfavon (23:05.506)
This is

Alan Malfavon (23:11.37)
The moment I saw Benjamin Brad, I was like, let's go, blood in, blood out in space. Let's go, man. And I think we texted about this, right? I I love Jimmy Smith as a prequel trilogy fan. grew up with his portrayal of Sarah Gretat. To me, he feels very regal, very royal to the context of the prequels, rather the elegance of that, the K, of the Republican decay. Exactly. Benjamin Brad is like, let's get, can I curse this?

Jason Herbert (23:16.731)
Later.

Yep. Yep.

Jason Herbert (23:25.553)
course.

Jason Herbert (23:33.253)
These elegance. Yeah.

Alan Malfavon (23:41.422)
Yeah. Oh, like, let's get this shit done, right? It's like the way he actually handles Cassian's passion towards the end. In the last episode, he's like, dude, I understand, but I got to put you in check because you have to respect this council, right? I'm bringing authority to rebellion. It's not just you exactly. And the power of that performance with Benjamin, also when he meets Mothma before the speech, right? And he encourages her.

Jason Herbert (23:50.405)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Herbert (23:59.73)
There's authority here.

Alan Malfavon (24:09.006)
to do what it's morally right regardless of the consequences and she's like, they're gonna go after you. And he's like, I don't care. We're doing this because this is what's right, right? mean, that silver determination, which Brad brings to the role of organo, of center organomy to me makes him incredible.

Jason Herbert (24:23.943)
can tell you best dressed he in Mothma far and away best dressed in the show like I was looking at some of the stuff he's do the caves right here's here's some other stuff that I dug about about the way they wrote Organa and the way that brat plays it okay one all of the stuff leads to when Alderaan gets blown up like you we no longer it's just a planet like holy shit we just lost Bail Organa we just lost

Alan Malfavon (24:26.37)
Oof! I need a cape.

Jason Herbert (24:50.907)
the compliment to Mon Moth, but cause he's really the number, he, the a one B he, he's, he's right there with her, right? Clearly. And for her, actually has to kind of step up, you know, in kind of a voice herself over him. you're right. He's, he's like grittier. He's like more demanding versus there's that great line that K2S says that that man you don't like is here. I'm like, yes. So, but he brings that gravitas.

Alan Malfavon (24:53.901)
Pillar.

Alan Malfavon (25:08.033)
Yes.

Alan Malfavon (25:13.39)
It's like incredible, incredible.

Jason Herbert (25:19.505)
that I think maybe Smith was like sad in some ways.

Alan Malfavon (25:19.853)
He does.

Alan Malfavon (25:23.508)
Yes, like in the Obi-Wan Kenobi show, right? I mean, I love his portrayal, but it's a portrayal based on worry on like the Empire always creeping on you, right? And I'm not saying that Brad's performance wasn't showing that awareness, but at same time, it's like, okay, we have the Emperor breathing on our neck even more so than the Jimmy Smith in Obi-Wan Kenobi, but it's a time of action, right? And it's a message that, you know, I know we're going to talk it, link it eventually to real history and events, right? Because we're historians of the movies.

But it's a call to determination. It's a call to do something. It's a call to stand up. It's a call to be active, right? That I saw in that character, right? Which made me really happy, right? That a Latino actor, in the times that we're living in the Star Wars universe, is saying those messages and inspiring such attitudes, right?

Jason Herbert (26:10.597)
Yeah. there's a couple of other points here. think that really important when we look at like Bratz performance and the characterization of Bale Organa, right? Which is this never once do we hear anything about, my God worried about my daughter. Like there's no like thing where it's like, Hey, don't forget who I am. Don't forget who my daughter is. Wink, wink. Right. Cause this is not about Leia. It's not about Luke. It's not about Darth Vader. It's like Bale Organa is a hero.

Alan Malfavon (26:28.62)
Wink wink.

Jason Herbert (26:39.495)
Bail Organa is risking everything as well. And we don't, it doesn't have to be force fed. like, this is the heroism of this man. You know, this is what this is. There's that. We talked about this just a second ago. Now I want to spell it out a little bit. They do this phenomenal job here.

Alan Malfavon (26:39.81)
If you

Alan Malfavon (26:48.834)
Right.

Jason Herbert (27:00.995)
about making this world a world when we talk about humans as people of color and it's just not a thing. It's just like, yeah, whatever. It's like, okay, I never get the sense of a tokenism, Alan, when I watch this where I'm thinking like, okay, here's the African American person who happens like, or like, so one of my least favorite, Senator Pamela, right? She's awful, right?

Alan Malfavon (27:08.92)
Bye.

Alan Malfavon (27:20.602)
Right.

Alan Malfavon (27:27.862)
Right. Which incredible actress, by the way, mean, that she really sold us. She sold us on that, right?

Jason Herbert (27:32.392)
It's on how bad she is. I'm like, why are you so bad at doing this? We have to go fight, right? And my point is oftentimes in these kinds of things, you take maybe a traditionally marginalized person or something like that and make them the mortar or the like, no, no, it turns out everybody's capable of making bad mistakes or whatever, right? And you know, there's the white guy too. I tried to look up his name, Senator Doofus McGee or whatever. I couldn't remember. With the jet. Yeah.

Alan Malfavon (27:45.73)
Bye, man.

All right.

Alan Malfavon (27:58.158)
Oh, the one with the 70s scraggly beard, yeah, with the chin strap, yeah.

Jason Herbert (28:01.593)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So there was that.

Can we talk a little bit about the Empire here and Deirdre and Cyril? okay, first of all, Deirdre Cyril, like that turned out to be a thing. I was like, no way. The Kana Kiki, what's that sex life look like? It's lights off, Alan. It is lights off. It's lights off in between seven and nine PM. That's what it is. There's no morning.

Alan Malfavon (28:13.196)
Please.

Alan Malfavon (28:19.351)
and a pretty wicked kind of weird. Yeah.

Alan Malfavon (28:26.682)
I don't want to think about it, man. man.

Alan Malfavon (28:37.506)
Yes.

Jason Herbert (28:38.659)
Although, like there was like this genuine affection, like, like when she stepped to the overbearing mother, like there's like an actual, and here was the cool thing I dug about this. So like Imperial bad guys have home lives there. They have their marriages, you know,

Alan Malfavon (28:43.448)
There is.

yeah.

Alan Malfavon (28:56.526)
Which I think is great that you mentioned Jason because I think it's so important. It's so important for the viewer and for the Star Wars fan in the community to realize that evil is not 24-7 evil. Evil, it's a step after a step after a step, right? It's a collective effort, right? It's not just the Emperor being like, doing all the... Or Vader, or Britain. That's not evil. That's not the Empire, right?

Jason Herbert (29:19.76)
Right.

That's easy to identify.

Alan Malfavon (29:25.578)
That's cliche almost, right? I think that's what I love about Andor, right? Which tells us that it only takes so much. It only takes this much to enable horrible things. Right? Yep. Just this little.

Jason Herbert (29:34.887)
Turn it up. Evil can be you doing whatever you gotta do, no matter what to get ahead, to move up in the scale. You know?

Alan Malfavon (29:44.022)
Right. Which, at end of the story, karma arrives, comes back after.

Jason Herbert (29:49.224)
Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And here's another thing I want to talk a little bit about the grit here because like, I don't know if we should do a warning here, but there's like, you know, the scene where like Cyril starts choking his wife, right? We have suicides on this show in the final episode, we have

Alan Malfavon (30:03.436)
Yeah. Yeah.

Alan Malfavon (30:09.112)
Suicides, attempted murder, attempted rape? Man.

Jason Herbert (30:11.761)
We have attempted rape. my God. Adria Arjona I want to go back to her for a second. That whole, I was like, wow, are we seeing what I think we're about to see? Like we're actually seeing like these horrible elements of like the worst of humanity in Star Wars. And forgive me for saying this Alan, this is what we've needed. Like we've needed to see like in this idealized world, the people are.

Alan Malfavon (30:34.478)
I agree.

Jason Herbert (30:39.482)
capable of doing awful things and we have to push back against that.

Alan Malfavon (30:43.758)
I'm glad that you mentioned that we needed it, right? Because he goes back, I think, to the root. I'm going to talk two things, if I may real quick. George Lucas's grittiness with the original film and centering, right? mean, George has been a record with James Cameron saying, like, hey, the rebellion of the British, the empire is the US occupation, right? There's all these parallels, historical, whether you agree with them or not. And this is, I mean, to me as a Latino, Mexican, Mexican-American, to see the whole discussion of this

Jason Herbert (30:48.817)
Please, please.

Alan Malfavon (31:14.05)
horrible pig of an imperial officer, right? That tries to commit sexual abuse on bigs, on the character and mentioning, right, the plight of undocumented farm workers in that planet, which echoes a lot of the plights of current undocumented workers in this country, right, in this reality. And also how people are taken advantage of for the sake of

Jason Herbert (31:17.425)
Yeah? Awful.

Alan Malfavon (31:42.03)
better future, right? And that to me, fact that Star Wars, when there was like, holy crap, this is, this is like sending a message of like, hey, this is a franchise that cares about you, regardless of who you are, we care about portraying your story exactly. Thank you. We see you and we respect you as a person as a human, regardless of who you are racially documented, documented, that is a huge important message that the franchise had to put forward in this time. Sorry, I didn't mean to.

Jason Herbert (31:52.529)
Yeah. We see you. We see you.

Jason Herbert (32:09.711)
No, Alan, feel like, know, listen, you you and I have been friends for a long time and I feel like this is such an important dialogue because I'm a white guy from Kentucky. I'm a big straight white guy from Kentucky. I cannot ever imagine. I can't understand what it's like to move to the United States, to be a person of color here or just to struggle with the stereotyping. Right. I know how I'm coded. You know, I sympathize. I try to empathize. Right. But it can't.

Alan Malfavon (32:14.2)
We have.

Alan Malfavon (32:32.59)
Right. Right. What are you doing, Cass?

Jason Herbert (32:38.553)
It can't resonate with me the way my resonate, you know, with a person from Mexico or from Venezuela or Costa Rica or some other place who comes here. It's like, just want a chance to survive. And then because of their position of weakness, they're targeted by law enforcement, by ice, whatever, by people who would rape or hurt or maim or steal from them because they can't push back because they're weak.

Alan Malfavon (32:51.374)
Break.

Alan Malfavon (33:06.862)
because they can speak up.

Jason Herbert (33:08.423)
Can't speak up, right? Who are going to tell? You know, this power dynamic and then gets implied, you know, generationally and there's no shortage of, for those of you listening in, of amazing work. Some of them, I've got tons over here that speak to that, right? No, it's, it's weird to say I needed to see these horrible things from Star Wars, but I needed to see this thing that I grew up with saying that we grew up, saying that it grew up too, you know?

Alan Malfavon (33:22.446)
All right, ready?

Alan Malfavon (33:39.054)
I think Jason, it's a showing of how Star Wars is also an organic thing that evolves with society and evolves with us as viewers and it evolves with the world as human history. I think at this point it's not just science fiction slash fantasy. I think at this point it's an echo of the human condition, its history, its culture, its politics that has kept evolving. It's been evolving over time. And I know we're talking about it, but just gotta say, don't know if it takes you this...

I went to the 20th anniversary screening of Revenge of the Sith, right, with my sister. And it was incredible to see the scene when Palpatine, right, just declares the empire, right? And I was just like, I was 13 years old anyway, myself here, was 13 years old in Veracruz in Mexico watching this with tears to my eyes seeing the Jedi of the Jedi, but no political thinking yet. And then 20 years after seeing this, got goosebumps and I was terrified, right?

Jason Herbert (34:19.943)
Yeah.

Alan Malfavon (34:38.176)
of the perils of the presence of the presence of these things. And I think Andor is very good at doing that. Maybe not presence, but more straight in your face type of situation, right? But I think it's needed. I think it's needed because we cannot, we cannot, as we say in Latin America, we cannot simply try to cover the sun with our thumb, right? We can't. We cannot.

Jason Herbert (34:56.743)
Oh, I like this. Um, you know, you got such a great point because here's the thing. I think that as time goes on, what we're going to, the way we're going to continue to think about, George Lucas, it really is his visionary guy who had so much to say, not just through star Wars, but through even the Indiana Jones and some ways we think about faith, fact, person, you know, who we are, family, things like that. Uh, Luca, we don't need to beat up beat on this, but Lucas's weakness is always as, a technical writer, right?

Alan Malfavon (35:25.281)
It's worse.

Jason Herbert (35:26.415)
his, the message he's trying to send and the, images he's trying to use, you can see those say in the prequels where it's like, okay, this is what he's trying to say here. And it's not quite as sophisticated as like, say if you had like Tony Gilroy, like saying taking George's taking George's message, but in a lot of ways, that's what that's what Andor is. It's Tony Gilroy putting

putting into words what Lucas was trying to say about resistance, about fascism, about hope, because ultimately this is hope. There are these moments of extreme, I was watching Gilroy talk about his son saying, hey, how are you going to do the rebellions built on hope? And then it's the guy behind the desk at the hotel.

Alan Malfavon (36:02.318)
Great.

Alan Malfavon (36:19.22)
my God, can we talk about that episode eight? No, no, no, it's that that was perhaps, and I know we texted, right? When we saw it last week, I was just like, Jesus Christ, I shed tears. I shed tears because those scenes of the storm troopers, Imperial troops, regular troops committing just murder, I guess, the demonstrators, right?

Jason Herbert (36:21.125)
Please, demand.

Jason Herbert (36:31.035)
See, got it.

Alan Malfavon (36:47.374)
As a historian of Mexico, that reminded me of the massacre of Tlatelolco in 1968, right? With the student movement of 68. A friend of mine who's another historian, he's like, hey, that was the Amber Star massacre in India, 1919, right? It echoes this historical moments, right? And somebody who, I don't know, I didn't have family there, but I teach the subject and I have family in Mexico City that knows people that have relatives that perished from state repression in 68. And to see that, it just made me cry, especially after seeing Diego's.

Jason Herbert (36:57.318)
Yeah?

Alan Malfavon (37:16.046)
Cassian at the end realizing that hundreds of of millions of people in the planet or man were being exterminated just for a tiny resource, a tiny, tiny resource, right? And it echoes right of how willing, how willing in our history as a humanity, we've been willing to do the humanize the other another group, right? In this case, the governments by the empire to get what we want. Right. And I think it's a powerful grim.

at times horrible, horrible reality message that that episode brings is harrowing, but it's needed. Right? It's needed.

Jason Herbert (37:51.986)
You know, in Star Wars, we've seen planets blow up. We've seen cities destroyed. We've seen mentors, sliced down. We've never seen a massacre. An actual and here, here is, there's a couple of brilliant things going on here. The show, we can talk about what this, what this, what this show does to Rogue One here in a bit. We'll kind of finish with that, but what, this does or what, because I think we will have to, this elevates.

Alan Malfavon (37:58.008)
Right.

Alan Malfavon (38:05.035)
Ever.

Jason Herbert (38:21.231)
in some ways the stormtrooper like the way some stormtroopers are scary now, you know, but that the Gorman massacre, the fact that they're like, okay, we're going to have a massacre on star wars and it's going to be brutal and the people you care about are going die and they're going to die horribly. And you could see very, I remember watching when they first get the Gorman, like immediately I'm like, holy shit. Can we talk about like all the way the, all the way down to the costuming, the way this mimic the French resistance.

Alan Malfavon (38:24.471)
It does!

Man, they can shoot!

Alan Malfavon (38:39.822)
Good.

Alan Malfavon (38:50.038)
Yeah. Incredible.

Jason Herbert (38:54.031)
As a historian, and I was saying this when we talked about the film Sinners, which I think is just one of the most amazing things I've ever seen, right? Thank you very much. You know, I think where art can be amazing is when it uses history in smart ways to tell these larger stories, right? And they are clearly, for people who are not familiar with the French Resistance, you are now, you know,

Alan Malfavon (39:01.016)
By the way, incredible episode.

Jason Herbert (39:23.943)
because Gorman was clearly a stand-in for the French resistance. All the the language, they created an entire language that sounded like French in Star Wars.

Alan Malfavon (39:33.58)
Like French. It was funny because when I... And how do you commit all these actors to learn this imaginary language and portray it with such emotion? I mean, was just incredible, right? It was something else, man.

Jason Herbert (39:36.389)
How do you do that?

Jason Herbert (39:49.436)
You felt it. You felt it. You know, it was simply, you know, just amazing that the whole whole bit.

Was there a, we need to go back and talk about Luthen. We need to. Luthen, I have a rule. When I'm cruising through Instagram, which is this. Every time I come through Luthen's monologue, the what have I sacrificed monologue on Instagram. Like there'll always be somebody like show a video. I have to repost it every time. Cause I think it's a single best monologue in Star Wars history.

Alan Malfavon (40:07.533)
Okay.

Alan Malfavon (40:14.647)
is hearing.

Alan Malfavon (40:28.408)
Yeah. Thanks.

Jason Herbert (40:32.615)
I mean, it's just, you know, the way that Stella Skarsgard gives that the way his voice cracks, the way it's imperfect. It's, it's so amazing. Also Hasbro, I still want my Fondor Holocraft. like what the flip dude, I'll take a Lego version. I want one the size of the ghost. I want a Fondor Holocraft that I can fly around my living room. Here's what I love what they did with Lucy, who played such a big role in first set. And he's a big role in the second season.

Alan Malfavon (40:47.948)
lease.

Yeah.

Jason Herbert (41:02.449)
But it's kind of like he's, he's almost ominous for the good guys because Ma is clearly terrified of him. We know he's capable of doing horrible things. Yeah.

Alan Malfavon (41:07.95)
For good measure.

Jason Herbert (41:14.279)
Cassian and he had enough and and he are falling I thought for certain like he's gonna kill Bix at some point in time. I Was worried about that, you know I Was like, oh my god Cassian's gonna have to kill a Luthen, know after he kills mix and thankfully they didn't happen But you know, there was like this, you know, it was like everything that he said he understood He was never gonna make this out alive and he was doing it anyway

Alan Malfavon (41:21.198)
I had that fear too. Especially when he goes knocking on her door and was like, hey, how are you doing? Where are you up to? I was like, oh god.

Yeah.

Alan Malfavon (41:41.166)
breath.

Jason Herbert (41:42.983)
It's like this light of gratitude. He he's talking about his fellows in the in the Alliance because they don't trust him and they talk about him like he's over in Yavin.

Alan Malfavon (41:51.638)
Right, right. mean, that episode, episode 12, right? I mean, they're like, why are you coming here? Why are you coming here with this information for somebody like Luthen? If you think about it, basically making him put him on the same scale as the psychopath, which I think incredible psychopath, by the way, Saw Gerrera. Right. It's like the counter to Saw Gerrera is crazy. They're the same viciousness, but more lucid. Right.

Jason Herbert (41:55.623)
Play it as we go.

Jason Herbert (42:09.667)
He kind of what he had to be. Yeah

Jason Herbert (42:17.371)
Yeah, Forest Whitaker's

Alan Malfavon (42:21.89)
Can we talk a little bit, we shout out Forrest Rudecker, Sol Guerrero, that I think was like to the second arc, right? Where he has a woman inhaling rhodonium fumes. And it's just like.

Jason Herbert (42:25.519)
Yeah, let's go. Let's go to song. We'll come back to listen. Go ahead.

Jason Herbert (42:32.817)
Yeah.

Yeah, but now we know when he was inhaling when he was in Rogue One.

Alan Malfavon (42:41.262)
Exactly, exactly. It was like inhaling glue basically in real world. He is. He's insane. He's insane completely.

Jason Herbert (42:46.097)
And he's losing his fucking mind.

He's insane. And you know, he's a guy who starts off, you know, if you watch the Clone Wars TV shows, stuff like that, he's a different guy. And it's like, what war does he, you know what he has? You know who Saul Guerrero is? He's Colonel Curtis in Apocalypse Now.

Alan Malfavon (42:58.925)
Completed.

Alan Malfavon (43:05.23)
Uh huh. I'll talk others out. Yes, you read my mind. I was gonna say exactly the same thing. He's seen so much carnage, sacrifice. I mean, can we talk the whole episode where Wilman feels that he's gonna be assassinated by two tubes or one of the henchmen of Bookstog and R.R. And the other guy's like, come on, just tell me where it is so can get the exact combination for the radonium extraction. And he just shoots him in the head point blank. And he's like, I was like, holy crap, this guy's just killing his own people, right? But the ability to...

Jason Herbert (43:29.179)
Yeah.

Alan Malfavon (43:35.128)
that you almost need to be this psychotic to survive in this clandestine rebellion, right? my God, that was... Rest in peace, the real MVP.

Jason Herbert (43:40.151)
Luthen kills Lonnie sitting on the bench Poor Lonnie, you knew Lonnie was never making it out

Alan Malfavon (43:53.664)
Oof. mean, two hours going through three years of files just to discover the Dead Start project? Like, come on, Talk about research.

Jason Herbert (44:00.808)
Yeah, but here's the thing, right? I love how the thing was like, when all this came to a head, it came to a head. It was like, now it's happening. It's happening now, right? Like he discovered it. He's got to get to Lutheran to Lutheran can get that information out. And then of course, Luthor Luthor kills them. I wasn't surprised by that, you know, at all. I think the thing that surprised me when it came to Luther was like, I was waiting for the Lutheran Deirdre showdown.

She shows like, they're to kill each other. They're going to, this is how they're both going to, it's going to be a, that's too easy. But, but then he pulled, but he pulls out the dagger Alan. And I'm like, okay. That you don't as a show writer writer, reveal a dagger in this moment and not use the dagger.

Alan Malfavon (44:37.58)
Right, like a clean-ins with type of shootout type of situation, right?

Alan Malfavon (44:54.816)
I was gonna say, Jason, when he's talking about the dagger, And Dejra has played this cat and mouse game with him, where they're talking and pretending, right? And she's like, are any of these, are all these pieces original? So he's like, well, there's actually only two pieces of dubious precedence. And he's talking about himself and Dejra, right? I mean, that was just like, my God, that's incredible.

Jason Herbert (45:11.143)
huh. Yeah. Like it's so smart, right? It's like, my God. and the way that he's like turns around and he stabbed himself. It's like, win, you know?

Alan Malfavon (45:24.846)
Epico. Right, yes. I'm dying with my honor, right? that like... Talk about the callbacks to Japanese culture and the influence of Star Wars, right? Talk about this this notions about dying with honor, right? Dying with your mission and not becoming captured by the enemy, right?

Jason Herbert (45:27.035)
I mean, it's hard.

Jason Herbert (45:42.267)
Yeah. And then of course, you know, and then the going back to what we ended up getting with that amazing thing where Cleo has to go finish him off. Jesus, man. It's just.

Alan Malfavon (45:50.698)
extremely emotional, right? Extremely emotional because then they show you the training that he gave her and this...

Jason Herbert (45:55.08)
how did you feel about the Naboo scene? Did you recognize that as Naboo when they were sitting down there?

Alan Malfavon (46:01.646)
I recognize that you know how the moment that they were showing all of their faces and I saw Kleia's outfit I was like nah there's only two possibilities right we're big nerds man we're like oh that looks like the governor from episode one regal outfit right it's very very sumptuous right I was like Naboo immediately when they pan out to the river I was like that's Naboo

Jason Herbert (46:07.439)
Right? How bad are we? We're like, I can recognize that outfit from a planet.

Jason Herbert (46:22.224)
Yeah.

And you know what? Here was the cool thing. It was a chance to revisit Naboo without again, shutting it down our throats. They never said we're in Naboo. But if you know this, yeah. But what we saw was the

Alan Malfavon (46:33.294)
Or showing a Gungan. Yep. Which I was thinking, what happened to the Gungans during the Imperial occupation, right? Like... Man.

Jason Herbert (46:41.649)
They're all dead, man. They're in hiding. They're the Gungan resistance now. Please. I don't know what happened to the Gungan. I'm not a Gungan guy. But you know, it's like, I knew it was Naboo just by the way they were dressed and the social class. That's what Naboo was getting in for.

Alan Malfavon (46:48.022)
Right. Yes.

Alan Malfavon (46:54.027)
I know, know, man.

Alan Malfavon (47:00.236)
Right. Yes. Yes, the dining, the utensils on the table, the cups. mean, you could just feel the regalia of it.

Jason Herbert (47:09.999)
Yeah, it's and it's almost like Naboo. It was almost like Vichy France, where they're like, where they're like, well, we've like, we've moved on, like, we've accepted what this is, you know.

Alan Malfavon (47:13.176)
Mm-hmm.

Alan Malfavon (47:22.188)
It's like, look at your dinner, don't look at the Stormtrooper type of situation, right?

Jason Herbert (47:25.543)
Yeah, let's pretend this doesn't exist, right? So, I really dug that.

Alan Malfavon (47:28.824)
Right.

Jason Herbert (47:35.996)
I want to ask you, OK, we get we get there's this there's this amazing thing where maybe our hearts got rescued because when Bix does the thing where she says, hey, she leaves the I'm leaving you. That was hard to watch. The only thing keeping me from driving out to the nearest mountain here in Colorado and throwing myself from it after that was the K2SO reveal.

Alan Malfavon (47:37.964)
If you

Alan Malfavon (47:48.277)
Great.

Alan Malfavon (47:52.366)
my god, can we talk about the K2 units in the massacre first?

Jason Herbert (48:07.143)
They're scary! Let's, okay, because I think when we first heard Andor, we were like, okay, it's gonna be an Anne, Cassian, and K2 show. They're the hot and chewy of this. And I thought it was brilliant for us to, first time we see a K2 unit in Andor's first season, it's not our guy, right? They're just awful. And then, yeah, they're so cool. But, okay, go ahead. The massacre scene, you know?

Alan Malfavon (48:17.998)
And the is... Right.

Alan Malfavon (48:27.116)
Right. They're horrible,

Alan Malfavon (48:34.419)
No, I was just gonna say with Terminator 2. That's what it reminded me, right? T-800, T-1000s, when he's like, get the units, right? And the guy with the scar that, I hate that guy. And he's like, get the units, and he pushes the barricade of metal and just crushes like seven people, right? And then he tosses the daughter of that magistrate, right? Which tried to stop everyone from engaging in the trap.

Jason Herbert (48:36.295)
They're unstoppable killing machines.

Mm-hmm.

Jason Herbert (48:55.175)
Mm.

Alan Malfavon (49:01.582)
and she falls and breaks her neck and then they're running and then the guys are just throwing people against the wall. It's like, and no blaster can stop them. It's like, damn. Yeah, it's incredible, right? It's incredible to think the extent of resources by which the Empire used to commit such evil, right? They had everything checkmatched. Yeah, basically, we are specialists on it.

Jason Herbert (49:08.753)
that's not acceptable.

Jason Herbert (49:19.355)
We specialize in genocide.

Jason Herbert (49:24.123)
Sounds like another empire I can think of right now. And I thought again, the introduction of this K2, where I was like, okay, they got this one. I wasn't expecting for that one to be the one to be our K2. And it was like a last second thing where Cassie was like, hey, let's throw this guy in here. You know? Yeah. And then we finally hear Alan Tudyk. It's like, would you please put that down? I was like,

Alan Malfavon (49:27.222)
Yeah.

Alan Malfavon (49:45.07)
Actually, yes.

Jason Herbert (49:53.958)
He's so he's so perfect. Alan. And then like that last on see on episode 12. Right.

Alan Malfavon (49:54.007)
Incredible.

Jason Herbert (50:03.079)
We got, we didn't, got K2 in full K2 glory. Like, um, he's like, he's, he's like a puppy, right? He just kind of like, I'm going to kind of go do this thing over here, right? I'm going to kill the bad guys just off like that. It was like, Oh, and it's like, I've cleared the area and he's just like, God, I just love how shit, much, how brutal honesty is the shit talking, you know,

Alan Malfavon (50:07.96)
Cuideras!

Alan Malfavon (50:28.334)
how brutal he can be too right i mean to me he's like a puppy mixed with a rancor or like the rancor from the mandalore from baba fe where he's like a puppy rancor but he's vicious right it's just it's just this weird thing of like i don't like it here don't leave me alone and at the same time he's like hey are you with us he's like nope he just throws this isb officer 40 floors down into the hole of course that writer or just uses the inspector the sub-inspector's body as a shield that's he's go through the hallway

Jason Herbert (50:32.934)
Yeah!

Jason Herbert (50:52.871)
Oh, that's so that part was so that was a really good scene. That whole hallway scene was just so frickin well done. Right. Cause you're wondering, they going to get through again? I'm the whole time going, am I the biggest clay of Stan now in star Wars? Cause I was like, is she going to survive? Also, can I tell you when map, when Mel, she was like, when he was like carrying her through, was like, Oh, Oh, maybe this'll be, of course we know he's not going to make it more a couple more days either. It's like, God damn it.

Alan Malfavon (50:57.868)
Yeah.

Alan Malfavon (51:06.754)
Probably. I'm just kidding. Yeah, please.

Alan Malfavon (51:16.482)
Maybe.

Right. Yeah.

Jason Herbert (51:22.629)
You know, I was like, this is, I want her to be happy. I need, maybe her to fell. Maybe that happens.

Alan Malfavon (51:31.714)
I think so. agree. I agree. I ship them both. I think that could happen. I agree. She sacrificed a lot.

Jason Herbert (51:36.208)
Well, if we get our Mon Mothma movie or series by Jason Herbert, Cleo would have to play into it, right? She'd have to become like, you know, kind of a, my gosh, you know who she just reminded me of now that I think about it. Okay. In the, in the, in the Timothy's on books, said, what's her name? Snow. was, it was Leia's, Leia had like, there was like, there was a, there was a New Republic.

Alan Malfavon (51:46.474)
Of course.

Alan Malfavon (51:52.749)
Yes.

Jason Herbert (52:06.348)
Operative who falls in love with ackbar. I can't remember her name. Do you remember what I'm talking about?

Alan Malfavon (52:12.174)
I think I know who you're talking about. Yeah, but I remember the name, but I remember the story life.

Jason Herbert (52:15.909)
Right? Like I can't remember her name either. If you're listening out there, please tell. Why don't I say if you're listening out there, would that obviously whatever. Tell us nerds, fellow nerds out there. Thank you. All right. okay. So we've got through this. You and I are both her. you know what? We haven't even talked about Cassian actually this entire episode we haven't talked about and or today.

Alan Malfavon (52:23.202)
They will, they will, they will.

That little nerds.

Alan Malfavon (52:37.966)
The star of the show, we just made.

Jason Herbert (52:43.201)
let me ask you this, because this is a thing that I've started to kind of try to internalize how I feel about Cassie and Andor. Where does Cassie and Andor sit on your pantheon now of Star Wars heroes?

Alan Malfavon (52:56.522)
An excellent freaking question. And I'm gonna be as honest as I can be with you, right? Being a prequel trilogy fan, right? I grew up as a kid with him. My number one was always, even after, before his fall to the dark side, Anakin Skywalker, right? To me that was like, as of yesterday night, as of yesterday night, and I talked with Shannon, my fiancee, this. I told her we're going to, number one, celebration of Los Angeles in two years, we have to.

Jason Herbert (53:00.743)
Please.

Alan Malfavon (53:25.644)
I'm cosplaying for the first time as Cassie and Ender, right? And I'm only gonna pay one encounter with an actor and I'm by God hoping Diego Luna will be there to get that. And that to me, that should tell you already where he stands to me, right? Because like you said, he doesn't have the force. He's a street urchin, he's a refugee. He's a refugee, right? He's underprivileged. He's radicalized by his circumstances, right? To become a hero.

And he never wants to be that hero. He just wants to get away. But yet he knows that if he doesn't do it, nobody else will do it. that to me makes the makings of a hero 100%.

Jason Herbert (53:56.86)
Yeah.

Jason Herbert (54:02.852)
No one else can do it.

Jason Herbert (54:10.319)
When Clay opens the door, she sees the end or she's like, of course it would be.

You know, there was nobody else who could go and rescue Mon Mothma. There's nobody, right? And all I could think about, we'll talk about Rogue One in a second, was what a loss to the Rebellion of its greatest operative. Because that's really what he's become, right? My favorite, likewise for you, has always been Obi-Wan. At least on screen.

the nobility, the loneliness, the loyalty. Yeah, you know, Obi-Wan has, if you ever go back and read the original Star Wars novelization from 77, Lucas wrote about him as the greatest Jedi Knight. Now we never say he's the most powerful. He wasn't the most powerful, but he was the greatest because he embodied the virtue, the nobility, the honor, the sacrifice.

Alan Malfavon (54:46.434)
best shit I ever and that's what that's what that's what I'm wearing this shirt with him fighting Darth Maul right here.

Alan Malfavon (55:03.853)
Right.

Jason Herbert (55:12.749)
of what it meant to be the humility of a Jedi.

Alan Malfavon (55:17.07)
I mean, let's start by saying who was his master, Yeah, I mean, which you know is my favorite Jedi, right? We talked about this, because of those attributes that he learned from him, And then he gets the kind of the straight path, kind of the straight edge, of, so it's a good mix of honor, but also righteousness type of thing, right? He's not a rebel like his master, but he's kind of like right there, right? Exactly.

Jason Herbert (55:21.457)
Yeah, you know, but you know, Qui-Gon, right? Yeah.

Jason Herbert (55:29.329)
Sure, right.

Jason Herbert (55:40.262)
No, but he's not afraid to walk his own path, right? He is his own man, right? In a more capable, in a more capable, again, Attack of the Clones as Obi-Wan detective story, like a film, like a better written Attack of the Clones would have been a film noir detective story of Obi-Wan tracking down Jango Fett. That's what, right? And then there were, you would have some side missions with Anakin, but I think Attack of the Clones is still Obi-Wan's story of,

Alan Malfavon (55:52.622)
Okay.

Alan Malfavon (56:01.422)
100 percent.

Alan Malfavon (56:08.684)
It is.

Jason Herbert (56:09.411)
of the detective story and with a better writer and frankly, better director. Again, Lucas coming up.

Alan Malfavon (56:12.238)
100%.

Alan Malfavon (56:16.046)
All

Jason Herbert (56:18.405)
Like the whole thing, like you get the diner scene with Dexter and all stuff and like there's this hidden underworld bounty hunters and also like the pieces were there. It just not the dialogue. And frankly, Lucas surrounded himself with yes men. Like, you know, it was a, it was a Rick. who was the producer? Rick. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was like, it just wasn't there. Right. Okay.

Alan Malfavon (56:26.156)
Right?

Alan Malfavon (56:29.61)
It's just the dialogue.

Alan Malfavon (56:39.858)
My cullum, rig my cullum. Cullum, right?

Alan Malfavon (56:47.15)
Like, even if I'm just quick, even the whole thing about the relationship between Padme and Erick, it could be done. But the dialogue, though, the dialogue is the issue with that relationship, right? It should feel more tragic. There should be that impediment between him and her, right? It shouldn't be as... Exactly. Exactly.

Jason Herbert (57:05.383)
There should be this push and pull though. We want this, but can't have this. And it's like, there's this longing. Um, you know, she's five years older, blah, blah, blah. You can't have that at my age because at five years older than me, like you're a thousand years old. Uh, but yeah. So there's okay. So Obi-Wan is my favorite star Wars on screen character. My favorite off screen is you like kill drama. I love that story between him and know me. Sunrider for those of you who aren't following along U L I C.

Alan Malfavon (57:25.442)
Bye bye.

Alan Malfavon (57:30.101)
Jason Herbert (57:35.432)
QEL-DROMA God him X R Koon God man such such a great story it breaks my heart like the way that Noami's heart gets broken when when he falls God what a love story okay that's that that Tony go give me this Right thank you Tales of Jedi all right. It's what Kate. my god. All right so I think though I now have I now have

Alan Malfavon (57:37.9)
own MP.

Alan Malfavon (57:53.26)
Read the comics, kids, by the way. Please read those comics.

Jason Herbert (58:05.447)
I got Baylin at number Baylin skull at three.

Alan Malfavon (58:12.908)
Oof. Oof. Okay. Wow. That's... That's good. No, I'm not judging, man. That's great, actually.

Jason Herbert (58:18.789)
I love-

Jason Herbert (58:22.575)
He's not a hero. He's not a villain. He's like this pragmatist who was like lamenting what he has to go and do to set things right.

Alan Malfavon (58:24.525)
Right?

Alan Malfavon (58:31.211)
All right.

Jason Herbert (58:34.631)
rest of Peace Race even because he was such a perfect, you know, just yeah, I think Cassian it's like the direct comparison to Cassian is Han but I think in my head on my casting would whip Hans ass like it's he's even more ruthless somehow, right? He's serious. He's like he does. has a time for this shit, you know.

Alan Malfavon (58:48.622)
100 % man.

Alan Malfavon (58:52.686)
I mean, imagine Han being sitting down at most sides of the canteen and Cassian coming after him. Cassian would, mean, Han would have taken the gun, but Cassian would have pressed something and blown up the whole stall before he even shot at him. Like, let's be honest, man.

Jason Herbert (59:00.709)
The two of them facing off? my god.

Jason Herbert (59:12.39)
Here's what happens. Cassian shoots on before Han can sit down. Chewbacca tears off Cassian's Listen, I gotta show some love for our favorite Wookie. But all of this is to say that I really, know, because Rogue One was Jen's story really in a lot of ways, right? Right. But again, part of the power of this was like taking a near peripheral, a side character, the supporting actor and turned to like, and I love this.

Alan Malfavon (59:18.444)
Yeah, basically, mean, it's a tragedy. It's a tragedy.

Alan Malfavon (59:30.966)
It was us.

Alan Malfavon (59:39.448)
Great.

Jason Herbert (59:40.36)
Cause everyone is the star of their own show in their own lived experience, right? But I really feel like, like, how do you tell this story? And God, man, mouth, my mouth would now after Genevieve O'Reilly watching her for two seasons on this. And you know, the little bits here and there that we've seen of her. I hope that like, even if we don't see her anymore, Star Wars stuff. And I almost kind of feel like, like I don't want any more Star Wars of this. I I've been on the record. I'm tired of this time.

Alan Malfavon (59:43.95)
Of course.

Alan Malfavon (59:57.39)
Yeah.

Jason Herbert (01:00:09.253)
I'm ready to move past the Skywalker time. You got 25,000 years of Star Wars. You know, the James Mangold stuff is coming on, which I think I'm afraid that what they're trying to build in is like bail and resetting things way back when is what I'm afraid they're trying to do. Like stop tying everything together. Just it's 25,000 years, Alan. It's in a galaxy, man. Like, like tell other smaller stories anyway. So, but I do genuinely feel like now we have to look at Cassian is like,

Alan Malfavon (01:00:10.125)
Yeah.

Alan Malfavon (01:00:14.178)
Yeah, we do.

Alan Malfavon (01:00:26.048)
Very. Like, they're your separate thing, man, like...

Jason Herbert (01:00:39.173)
Like tier one of Star Wars heroes. You know, and I could also, again, I don't want to harp on this, but you know, you're a Mexican man, right? What he must mean.

Alan Malfavon (01:00:41.486)
Of course. Of course.

Alan Malfavon (01:00:50.19)
I have.

man, it's... And again, when you were starting going through memory lane, like Obi-Wan, was like, shit, I just put Cassie at number one, what about Qui-Gon? But at the same time, what he means to me as a...

Jason Herbert (01:01:03.601)
What he- yeah, that's the point, man.

Alan Malfavon (01:01:06.665)
It's just something else, Because you know, in the past, Hollywood has not been kind to our community, to our culture, to our history, right? By any means, right? Exploited, misrepresented, right? Made fun of, and we have here one guy that sacrifices himself to basically enable the whole story of the original trilogy, right? It's his honorable, his courageous, he is vicious, conflicted. He's not a saint, but he's willing to do what...

what it takes for good, right? And that is such a powerful message, right? In these times, mean, back to 2016, right? It's kind of interesting, the parallels, right? Political, historical, where both media formats were released, One and Endor, and how important the sort of representations are, To stand for who you are and where you come from and believe in yourself, right? Regardless of what, and that to me carries such an important message in Star Wars, right? And I'm sure that if you ask any other

male Mexican-American Mexican fan, they will be barely in agreement with what I'm saying, right? It's a huge deal, man. It's a huge freaking deal to have somebody like him, of the caliber of Diego Luna portraying such an intricate character, right, in Star Wars.

Jason Herbert (01:02:21.189)
I want to ask you, we're kind of coming here now, this is what we've been barreling up to. And or now, it's kind of formed, the two seasons plus World 1 has now formed its own Star Wars trilogy. Star Wars speaks in thirds.

Alan Malfavon (01:02:24.162)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Alan Malfavon (01:02:33.836)
in three logistics.

Jason Herbert (01:02:38.065)
How do we think about Rogue One now?

Alan Malfavon (01:02:41.762)
Oof. That is a great question. I think Rogue One, I'm not saying it didn't feel this way back in 2016 or all these years, but I've seen it since, or we've seen it all since. I think there's much more of a danger, right? Exactly, thank you. The exact same words I was at a loss for. There's so much more at stake. Everything is more dangerous.

Jason Herbert (01:02:58.757)
Yeah, it's a more at stake.

Alan Malfavon (01:03:09.024)
Why? Because we know the extent of what the Empire is willing to do to stop the Death Star from leaking. mean, that whole scene from yesterday's episode when Krennic puts the finger on Deidre Miro. I was like, is this dude channeling Darth Vader right now? Because that feels like Darth Vader in the room, right? And that to me is, right? He's kind of like, I'm such an evil bastard with the lowly people, but...

Jason Herbert (01:03:19.399)
20!

Jason Herbert (01:03:28.003)
Orson Crick is a great bad guy.

Jason Herbert (01:03:35.793)
Ben Mendelsohn feels right in Star Wars, He feels so good.

Alan Malfavon (01:03:39.98)
He does. does. And that conflict of him not being willing to act exactly the same way to Lord Vader. That is very, very impressive. Now that we've seen how he acts with his underlings. But when it comes to the higher dogs of imperial administration, the dynamic duo of poverty, Vader, he knows he ain't nothing. As Vader says,

This station is nothing compared to the power of the force, right? And there's a message, right? There's so much evil, everyday people in the Empire can do, right? But hey, don't try to get to the level of the Sith, right? Because then you're gonna stop there. Regardless of that, I think also the message of characters like Chirrut Inwet, right? And his friend from the Guardians of the Wheel. I mean, that dynamic duel that you have the non-belief in the force.

I'm blanking on his name, if you can help me right now. Not Chiro, but his, and then Chiro being the believer, that whole scene with the Force healer in episode nine to me was a tease of that. Exactly. That's all we needed. No lightsabers, no Force pushes, none of that, right? Acknowledgement that regardless the Empire failed to suppress the Force, right? And the Force is like a spring.

Jason Herbert (01:04:50.087)
That's all we needed. That's all we needed. And acknowledgments.

Alan Malfavon (01:05:05.164)
You might put concrete, you might put layers upon layers of dirt, the pressure of the water one day will bring it back to the forefront, right? I think that's very important, what that tells us in connection to Rogue One. And I gotta say, I don't know if you agree with me on this, but Gene's story in a way is kind of like a mirror story to Andor himself, right? A street urchin abandoned by the circumstances by her own family, right? And then forcibly recruited by the rebellion. Maybe not as nasty as Luthen, as vicious as Luthen recruited Andor.

Jason Herbert (01:05:05.423)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Herbert (01:05:18.887)
Tommy.

Jason Herbert (01:05:34.663)
Mm-hmm.

Alan Malfavon (01:05:34.786)
But nonetheless, they basically force her to... It's either you're in the rebellion or we have to kill you because you hurt too much or you go to a break, right? So it's... This is what this is, right? And to me, Andor pushes that to the next level, broke one.

Jason Herbert (01:05:41.669)
Yeah, this is what this is.

Jason Herbert (01:05:49.0)
Yeah, you know, I feel like now I feel like Rogue One, like we tend to rank things right. In my own mind, think Rogue One is solidly now above Jedi. Like for me, I've always placed Empire, Star Wars, Jedi. I know we vary on here, but it's like, I think it's clearly elevated Rogue One. It's made Rogue One somehow a better movie. There's more at stake here. We have, we...

Alan Malfavon (01:05:57.378)
Bye, bye.

Alan Malfavon (01:06:08.558)
Right, right.

Jason Herbert (01:06:19.505)
We know what's at risk now. Like we have a relationship. We sadly know, like we've all seen Ruggernaut now, but we know that like Bix is way, it's also changed the way we look at Cassian and Jinn. Cause we thought maybe initially like, okay, we we, we, we, yeah. And now you can't look at that with his eyes open thinking he's thinking about Bix.

Alan Malfavon (01:06:32.302)
I agree. They had a thing or.

Alan Malfavon (01:06:41.962)
Mm-hmm. He's just comforting Jin because Jin is thinking of her dad, but he's thinking of Vix.

Jason Herbert (01:06:42.895)
You know?

Jason Herbert (01:06:47.119)
And he's and they're and they're comforting each other in this moment. Like we did it as a total. Here's a crazy idea. Man, women can be platonically, you know. And you know, I think the thing is like it hurts more. Because I still think like I still I want, you know, I want to believe. Like the people in the happy, but we know that's not true. And like Rogue One doesn't work if anyone survives.

Alan Malfavon (01:06:51.403)
executive.

Alan Malfavon (01:06:59.192)
Talkies.

Alan Malfavon (01:07:04.77)
I agree.

Alan Malfavon (01:07:18.405)
I think I'm putting the historian right here, right? A historian of Latin America. To me, that scene when they know that they did something good, but maybe not lot of people are going to remember them, makes me think perhaps of the hundreds and thousands of disappear from South America, the dictatorships, right? About, you know, I try to fight, I did it, and if my family remembers me, so be it, right? And it's that grief, it's that sadness, it's that historical parallel, right?

Jason Herbert (01:07:36.998)
Yeah.

Alan Malfavon (01:07:47.872)
of how much they made an impact, right? Even if they're not here any longer with us, but that their memories will never be forgotten, right? What they did, their sacrifice, basically.

Jason Herbert (01:07:59.484)
Yeah, that's like, and again, Star Wars has always been this triumph of Luke and Han and Leia. And they're important parts of the story, but like there were these other people and every single woman all the way down to Melchida, Luthor to everyone like Ma and Mothma's failed marriage and the fact that she had to sell her kid off to support a rebellion that she'll, you know,

It's a tragedy to survive this. And none of these people are doing this for their own good. They're doing this for the hope that the next generation might. It's such a giving thing. None of this. And I think if I have to be negative for a second, it frustrates me after watching Andor to have the sequel trilogy. Because it's...

Alan Malfavon (01:08:31.406)
It is.

Alan Malfavon (01:08:38.872)
Be better.

Alan Malfavon (01:08:54.727)
I agree.

Jason Herbert (01:08:56.145)
How does Mon Mothma, who has held this ship together, how does all of this fall apart again right after their greatest victory over the Emperor? The Zahn trilogy made sense. You've got this rogue warlord who is a genius coming back, who has access to this cryptic fleet of dreadnoughts. those who aren't familiar, we're talking about the Thrawn trilogy, Heir of the Empire, Dark Force Rising, Last Command came out in 19...

I think 91, 92, 93, somewhere in that range. Yeah, phenomenal. That's the only thing I can think of, frankly, those books are the only things I think now, Alan, that can go toe to toe with the Endor.

Alan Malfavon (01:09:27.758)
No need to repeat.

Alan Malfavon (01:09:37.716)
And you know, hopefully I'm crossing my fingers that they take some inspiration from those books for the Ahsoka season two and the Mandalorian and Grogu film, you know, like, come on.

Jason Herbert (01:09:43.845)
Yeah, I mean, clearly, yeah. Yeah, like they've clearly been retconning some of that stuff in, right? But it's like, you know, so if we were gonna have episode seven, eight and nine.

Alan Malfavon (01:09:50.51)
It's good, you know.

Jason Herbert (01:09:59.034)
It just wasn't planned out the love and the respect given to like Tony, Tony Gilroy said he didn't have to respect Star Wars. He was trying to create the stories that right and so forth. But it was like, but he was also understood the rules and where the stories were going and the messages he was trying to send. And the sequels were just like, let's make some Star Wars movies. Here's a lightsaber. Here's a Wookie. Right. look, we're not on a snow planet. We're on a salt planet.

Alan Malfavon (01:10:07.768)
Good.

Alan Malfavon (01:10:16.514)
I agree.

Alan Malfavon (01:10:20.994)
Yeah, here's nostalgia. Nostalgia, right there.

Alan Malfavon (01:10:29.582)
Look, it's not a Death Star, it's a Death Planet.

Jason Herbert (01:10:29.669)
Yeah.

Yeah, it's not an AT- it's not an AT-AT, it's a Gorilla AT-AT.

Alan Malfavon (01:10:39.628)
Right, right. It's not Darth Vader. It's he's Emo Grenkin. Right. It's like.

Jason Herbert (01:10:44.997)
Yeah, what if we rode horses on a Star Destroyer?

Alan Malfavon (01:10:51.298)
God, dude. Don't get me started on episode nine, I remember being there in the movie, third, twenty eighteen. I had my cousins from from Benacruz coming over that that Christmas time. We were so stoked, dude. It was like 10 of us in the theater. I bought all the tickets as a gift to everyone. And I was just like. Did we just did we just saw the Sith troopers? Like five minutes in screen, then we just saw them for five minutes. And like, my God, man, like.

Jason Herbert (01:10:54.074)
Okay.

Jason Herbert (01:11:10.247)
Do we just watch, watch?

Jason Herbert (01:11:20.955)
Am I allowed to curse on my own podcast?

Alan Malfavon (01:11:21.768)
It's... That's to you, buddy.

Jason Herbert (01:11:25.619)
Carajo is what I have to say. I mean, con yo is so bad. It's so so bad. Um This is not this is not a podcast. We should probably do a critical deconstruction of the sequel trilogy So at some point in time, we're gonna need more More dot that we're gonna need more said base that we're gonna need a lot more that we should just get plowed. Um You know what we'll do we'll do it we'll actually do it at the reception of your wedding

Alan Malfavon (01:11:28.504)
Kojo Kojo Kojo

Alan Malfavon (01:11:37.593)
the SQLs. agree. Yep.

Alan Malfavon (01:11:47.084)
More raw movie gus.

Alan Malfavon (01:11:53.25)
That's good.

Jason Herbert (01:11:53.852)
I'll just run around with a mic, but like, D-Mack, let's go and just let it rip. however, you know, so it's like, it's like the sequel trilogy negates. Because we also know now that there's about to be a Thrawn fight, you know, like, how does, like, I almost like, and again, not to harp on, like there are pieces, like I actually liked Daisy Ridley as Rey. I actually like her performance.

Alan Malfavon (01:12:11.542)
Right.

Alan Malfavon (01:12:22.114)
I do! Here's the thing, I thought the actors... Right, like... It's like hated with episode 2, right? All these actors get all this crap for that... Jeez! Give them the right script, right? Give them the right story.

Jason Herbert (01:12:23.579)
You know, I'm not a bastard. The actors did the best they could.

Jason Herbert (01:12:32.743)
He's a much better actor. He just didn't have to work. didn't have to, he didn't have to. Are you gonna turn down the chance to be, you gonna turn down the opportunity to be Anakin Skywalker? Come on. Right, exactly.

Alan Malfavon (01:12:44.278)
Of course not. Or like Paul Damer, Like somehow Palpatine has returned. I'm like, give Oscar Isaac some decent freaking lines. He's a high caliber actor, man. Come on, like.

Jason Herbert (01:12:54.311)
Also, thank you for not making him Cassie and and Vix's kid. I was like, don't don't you do that. Don't.

Alan Malfavon (01:13:00.894)
no no no no no, I mean, no no, he's dammer in a family and they're a family, right? There can be friends, but they're different. Right, right.

Jason Herbert (01:13:06.087)
Right, right, exactly. yeah, I don't know. All right, so let's bring this back. I don't want to drift too far off and code this in sequel nonsense. I love my children too much to let them watch The Last Jedi, which I think is the abomination of the three. All right.

Alan Malfavon (01:13:17.431)
No learning. Bye.

You

Jason Herbert (01:13:26.875)
Why don't do that to Luke? Mark Hamill says this is Okay, I'm sorry. All right.

Alan Malfavon (01:13:30.022)
On that note, was gonna say, I was gonna say there's a way to show how you can fail as an organization from getting yourself by lackeys that don't believe and there's no trust in each other like parts of the rebellion have shown us in Endor, right?

Jason Herbert (01:13:44.699)
That's what Andor does so well, they don't work well, they don't like each other, they don't trust each other, Saw's off doing his thing. Shit, you know they're considering having Saw killed.

Alan Malfavon (01:13:53.605)
Imagine if Luke in episode 8 had the same dramatic tension and distress as the characters in Anderson's 2 had for Rey, right? Who would have thought? Anyways, I just wanted say that.

Jason Herbert (01:14:05.603)
Alright, so we've been jawing at this for about an hour and 14 minutes and 10 11 second 12 13 seconds say I know just say right. Alright, let's let's do our final thoughts here on and or season one season two Rogue One. I have one Star Wars tattoo on my entire body. You know, which is right here. I it's in our best you've seen it before.

Alan Malfavon (01:14:12.27)
And it feels like 10 minutes.

Alan Malfavon (01:14:19.694)
That's it.

Alan Malfavon (01:14:32.142)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Herbert (01:14:34.279)
And it quite literally means never more than 12. You know, from that Narcena five episode, know, Kena line issued by Kena Loy, like a throw, you know, not a throwaway character, but again, not our hero, right? I have loved Star Wars for almost 50 years. And the one piece of this I put on my body forever is from this television show.

Alan Malfavon (01:14:42.766)
See you next time.

Alan Malfavon (01:14:49.228)
Right.

Jason Herbert (01:15:02.373)
When you think about Andor, what is Andor gonna mean to you? Are you gonna watch this again? Like, how are you, how do you feel?

Alan Malfavon (01:15:10.094)
I'm planning to get the logo tatted in my forum, right? Because, like, right.

Jason Herbert (01:15:14.247)
Oh, no, no, we we we are like this was the other thing. Are we are we getting are we getting are we getting the and or Eagle is that we're doing

Alan Malfavon (01:15:22.638)
No, the starbird from the remnant of the Andor version of it. I was thinking like right here man. Well, I have this, I have this form free so.

Jason Herbert (01:15:23.943)
You want to do I was thinking like right here. What do you wait? Well, I don't have any I don't have any spot right here, but like or or I was thinking I could put it on the back of my I could put on the on the back of my dry sap. Do you want or is that what we're going to do? Are we going to do the end or star the starboard the end of starboard? Well, I mean, because I can't do the thing, but like but I can do that between now and then like I can ship like I got a big spot there. All right. So for you guys, all right, for you guys listening, Alan and I are getting more Star Wars tattoos.

Alan Malfavon (01:15:34.998)
There you go. There you go.

That's what I want to do man

Alan Malfavon (01:15:46.36)
There you go. There you go. I'll have this right here so.

Jason Herbert (01:15:53.928)
So, okay, so tell me How you feel like think about it like what do you hope happens next with Star Wars because We got we got second season of Soka coming up which I enjoyed It was enjoyable. It's it's good. It's solid. It's like Mandalorian kind of fell off I have a friend of mine. I told her it's like text me the second you finish and or sees season two. She just texted Perfection she just texted me. All right

Alan Malfavon (01:15:54.306)
Yeah.

Alan Malfavon (01:16:08.93)
Hey, it's good.

It is.

Jason Herbert (01:16:25.56)
What's your hopes for Star Wars moving forward?

Alan Malfavon (01:16:28.768)
My hopes for Star Wars is that the overlords at Disney realized that there's a space for the whimsical, more children-oriented Star Wars, which is great, which we all grew up with. Skeletor, which was great, but maybe not my cup of tea because I'm older and whatnot, and I loved it. I loved it. But there's also a space for a greater, more adult-themed Star Wars. And I'm just here thinking the possibilities of doing a show.

Jason Herbert (01:16:39.751)
skeleton crew, okay, for what it is, yeah.

Alan Malfavon (01:16:56.494)
just a limited one season, six, seven episodes of, again, in between Empire, Return of the Jedi, of the Spies, the Bothans, right? Like what do they look like in canon? Who are they? Give me names, give me Genevieve O'Reilly directing the Homeworld with Admiral Agbar on the run from the Imperial Navy, right? Or something like that. Or for example, something grittier after the Skywalker saga, About...

Jason Herbert (01:17:16.391)
Mm-hmm.

Alan Malfavon (01:17:26.381)
some new generation of Jedi that are dealing with greater things, Like Jedi, like how does a Jedi stop something like Gorman from happening in the middle of it? You know what I mean? How do you do that, Like hard themes, right, that connect to a real world by mixing some of that whimsical stuff. I think we've been spoiled, Jason. I think as fans, there's a before and after.

Jason Herbert (01:17:35.783)
Mm-hmm.

Alan Malfavon (01:17:55.085)
And I think that before and after is Andor system one and two, particularly two, Rogue one, as long with it, and the world of Star Wars before all of that. That's the before and after, right?

Jason Herbert (01:18:05.137)
You know, I'm not a fan generally of adaptations of work because it just, it's like, want original stuff, but I, you and I have both played some of the, some of the older Star Wars games, the, the, the tales, the Jedi stuff like that. not to have all the public. Okay. So here we go. Ready? Cause there were references to cause there was canonized. I went to Rekata. Like I want that.

Alan Malfavon (01:18:13.484)
Right.

Alan Malfavon (01:18:20.642)
Battle of the Republic.

Alan Malfavon (01:18:26.839)
Right.

off

Jason Herbert (01:18:32.487)
Um, I genuinely think you could tell us the tales of the J I think tales of Jedi, you could actually tell the story of you look and K and Nomi Sunrider, of the great women in Star Wars led Star Wars storytelling, XR Koon, you know, the freedom NAD, you know, all this stuff. Um, I think there was there.

Alan Malfavon (01:18:37.25)
Yeah.

Jason Herbert (01:18:54.919)
Do you ever watch the cutscenes that are available for like the video games? Cause I think sometimes they do a much better job telling the stories. They capture them in so many better ways. Like I can just watch them for like 20, 25 minutes.

Alan Malfavon (01:19:03.566)
Yeah, was... Uh-oh.

I agree, like a lot of the greediness of like the Jedi Outcasts, video games. I'm thinking here, remember those Dark Wars comics that came out in the middle of the prequels, right, about the Clone Wars and the ritual? How greedy, how dark some of those things are, And like, know, Clone Wars, right? Everybody loves Clone Wars, right? Everyone and their grandmother loves Clone Wars and Filoni, right? What if we take the greedy approach of that and tell some stories about like the Siege of Jabin?

Jason Herbert (01:19:15.841)
yeah. Yeah.

Jason Herbert (01:19:22.353)
you

Alan Malfavon (01:19:37.454)
Right, big planet that's Rajab in four from the comics, right? Or...

Jason Herbert (01:19:40.933)
What about the PCSD of these guys? You know?

Alan Malfavon (01:19:44.13)
Exactly. Or what about some of these clone soldiers, being discarded as veterans and abandoned by the Empire, right?

Jason Herbert (01:19:50.482)
Well, that dude, you know what happens then is that you end up a Blade Runner. You have organic guys who don't survive that long and now they're dealing with the fact that they're gonna die in six months.

Alan Malfavon (01:20:00.398)
Great.

wing wing continuation of the the bad batch right yeah see

Jason Herbert (01:20:06.297)
Exactly. Right. So you've got that. Like I said, I'm interested in Mangold's like origin of the Jedi story. I like Mangold as a director, especially when he's like, cause Logan was really good.

Alan Malfavon (01:20:13.387)
Right.

Alan Malfavon (01:20:20.717)
Yeah, it's incredible.

Jason Herbert (01:20:21.415)
Because the studio finally let him do what he needed to do with Wolfer Reed. I don't think he's as good as Gilroy, but I don't think anybody's as good as Gilroy.

Alan Malfavon (01:20:26.339)
Yeah.

Alan Malfavon (01:20:30.966)
Right. I agree. I agree.

Jason Herbert (01:20:34.011)
You know, so I'm just like, you know, I'm going to.

I want to savor this and I don't want to compare anything to Andor, because it's like comparing things to Empire Strikes Back. It's just not fair. You know? I really just want to be happy that I really finally got. I'd always wanted a Star Wars series set in like a real universe that happened to be Star Wars with real themes and real die. And I got it. And if you want to make Skeleton Crew now or you want to go as like, I got what I wanted, man. I got.

Alan Malfavon (01:20:45.09)
Right, right.

Alan Malfavon (01:20:56.268)
Thanks.

Alan Malfavon (01:21:01.048)
Yeah.

Jason Herbert (01:21:07.717)
I got the story. Like, just need to be happy and just enjoy. And look, if you like the sequels, man, that's cool, man. That's just not my thing. There's enough Star Wars out there for you, right? Doesn't, whatever, right?

Alan Malfavon (01:21:17.174)
Do it your way, teach their own.

Thanks.

Jason Herbert (01:21:22.971)
I just feel like now we've got this critical piece of like this. So, you know,

Alan Malfavon (01:21:30.228)
If Andor season 2 does not get most of the Emmys, especially in the lead actress categories or supporting, I'm rioting man, that's...

Jason Herbert (01:21:40.4)
I feel like Shogun may have made that possible because your period piece, mean, because I mean, it's it should, it shouldn't get written off because it's science, space, fantasy, science fiction, whatever. It's it's not, this is a, this is a war series. Genevieve O'Reilly, think everybody, man, you know, Diego Luna taking this role, all of these guys. And also I want to say this, and I really mean this, right? I grew up as a real nerd.

Alan Malfavon (01:21:44.003)
Yeah.

Alan Malfavon (01:21:53.102)
Right, right,

Jason Herbert (01:22:09.467)
I didn't have a lot of friends. still wrestle with this. It was like kind of like my own shyness and such. For these-

Alan Malfavon (01:22:15.075)
We got me both, dude. mean, that's what we have in common about, like, Star Wars is a refuge, right? I went through the same thing, so...

Jason Herbert (01:22:17.831)
You know?

Yeah, for these people like Diego Luna to wrap his arms around this and take so much pride in this for me to listen to like Ben Mendelsohn to say, hey, I came back to this because I really loved being part of this. You know, all of these amazing actors and I mean, we didn't even do enough justice talk about Deja tonight and you know, you know what she did because what a great villain she was through this entire series.

Alan Malfavon (01:22:35.512)
Peace.

Alan Malfavon (01:22:43.406)
Bye.

Jason Herbert (01:22:50.843)
Man, I love Star Wars, Alan. And you know, there was a long time growing up where I had to push it off and be like, it's not cool. It's not cool to like Star Wars. It's not cool to like this thing that is so intrinsically part of me.

Alan Malfavon (01:22:53.901)
Me too,

Jason Herbert (01:23:05.127)
Man, slow me into her. So, brother, I am so glad. was so like, this is, I'm so glad we did this tonight, man. We have to watch this year. Yeah. Yeah, we're gonna to do Notting Hill sometime. We're gonna to go, let's just go back and do all the Rom-Com, we'll do a Rom-Com next, something like that, we'll cry.

Alan Malfavon (01:23:12.866)
Bye, quiz.

Alan Malfavon (01:23:17.454)
really happy we found the time and we got to talk about this because we really needed to.

Alan Malfavon (01:23:25.773)
Yeah.

Alan Malfavon (01:23:29.55)
Thanks.

Jason Herbert (01:23:31.921)
We'll do a about time or so. don't know. No, no say. all right, brother. I am so glad you made it here. Thank you for being here. Thank you for being my friend,

Alan Malfavon (01:23:33.358)
No problem,

Likewise, it's another.

Jason Herbert (01:23:45.025)
You go. All right.

Alan Malfavon (01:23:46.592)
And remember, remember, have friends everywhere.

Jason Herbert (01:23:50.719)
Dunsons guy. God, there's so many lives here, man. So much to art. For those of you listening in, thank you so very, very much for coming in, for listening to us talk about, uh, and or for being part of our own little rebellion in this podcast. Uh, we've got a whole bunch of stuff coming on. This was a quick thing we wanted to do for you guys. Talk about this thing. I've got a whole bunch of more pods coming up for you. Fuck. I don't know soon. So thanks for being here and, uh, may the force be with you.

Alan Malfavon (01:24:17.838)
Que la fuerza los acompañe.

Jason Herbert (01:24:19.515)
See that.