Episode 162: The Cutting Edge with Paul Gagliardi and Dart Adams

Toe pick! If you don't love The Cutting Edge, something is seriously wrong with you. This week Dart Adams and Paul Gagliardi drop in to talk about the history behind the 1992 cult classic and why we love it so damn much. 

About our guests:

Dart Adams is a historian, journalist and a lecturer from Boston, MA. His work has appeared in various online & print publications including Complex, NPR, Mass Appeal, Okayplayer, DJ Booth, Hip Hop Wired, The Urban Daily, The Vinyl Factory, uDiscover Music, Urban Legends, LEVEL, Ebony, Rock The Bells, Andscape (ESPN), Bay State Banner, Boston Globe Magazine, and Boston Magazine. He's also the owner/operator of independent imprint label Producers I Know/Fat Beats and host of Dart Against Humanity and the Boston Legends Podcast.

Dr. Paul Gagliardi is an associate teaching professor at Marquette University. His primary fields of research are twentieth-century American cultural studies, drama and performance studies, labor studies, and film studies.  And his research focuses on the intersection between economic calamity, theories of work and labor, and the performative art people produce during eras like the Great Depression.  In his courses, he emphasizes understanding the historical, social, and cultural context of texts, but also now our contemporary readings problematize literature.  He also fosters interdisciplinary dialogue between all fields in his courses, and supports students with both their academic and professional goals.

His book, All Play and No Work:  American Work Ideals and the Comic Plays of the Federal Theatre Project (Temple University Press, 2023), examines how select comedies produced by the federal government during the Great Depression portrayed complicated norms of working and labor.  I argue that many plays actually subverted norms of traditional labor or promoted alternative forms of working to audiences during the 1930s.  My writing on the Federal Theatre Project and other subjects, such as confidence artists and literature or other theater studies, has appeared in such outlets as Journal of American Drama and Threatre, Middle West Review, and Howlround, and I have a forthcoming chapter on portrayals of unions in pro wrestling.  My current research project examines the cultural history of ice-skating shows in the United States and Canada in the 20th Century, focusing on how shows like the Ice Follies and Ice Capades intersected with sports and theater, as well as how they promoted and challenged gender norms.

Transcript

Jason Herbert (00:00.244)
special here. was Dard, I was just telling Paul, this is my second pod today. And I'm like, yeah, I just I just had Jelani Cobb on earlier today. Talk. yeah, he was cool. Like it was I'm sitting there going, I'm to Jelani Cobb. Just fucking cool. Because he's a big deal. Not that you guys are not big deals. We're all big deal. The four of us, us and Johnny are all but I'm like talking like reconstruction and like how to like, you know, how do we see Obama through the lens of Lincoln?

Dart Adams (00:06.421)
wow.

Dart Adams (00:10.171)
wow!

Dart Adams (00:15.04)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Herbert (00:29.972)
I'm like, that this is good. I want to talk some figure skating today. So, you know, I'm like, I can't wait to get into this. But it was a good plot. And he was a really cool dude. really I really liked him. And so so I think I'm trying to, I'm trying to get him to come back. If you guys ever seen the movie Next of Kin, do know this film? The Patrick's Paul say no, do you know this? Next of Kin is this movie comes out in the late 80s, like 8788. Somewhere in that range.

Dart Adams (00:34.031)
Thanks.

Dart Adams (00:49.247)
Yes

Jason Herbert (00:59.816)
Patrick Swayze, Liam Neeson, Bill Paxton, right? They're all, they're Kentucky hillbillies, so it's my people, right? Who go to war against the Chicago mafia after the little brother gets killed. it's just Helen Hunt is in it, Ben Stiller is in that film. Like we need a critical re-engagement with Next of Ken.

Dart Adams (01:18.498)
Yeah.

Paul (01:19.08)
Get out.

Dart Adams (01:22.88)
It is one of those touchstone rentals from the live era where you would rent something and then you would watch the trailers and there'd be like 18 trailers and you're like, I wanna see that. I wanna see that. Avoid that at all costs. But like next to Ken, I saw because I saw the trailer on another rental.

Jason Herbert (01:28.18)
Jason Herbert (01:34.964)
Uh-huh.

Paul (01:41.67)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Herbert (01:45.928)
Yeah, like I remember, and like I was talking this morning, it's like my people in Kentucky, we don't have a lot. We've got, we've got basketball and bourbon and horse racing, but like that's about it. So if we get a movie, that's the like where we win. That's awesome. Not to ruin it, but like, look, Patrick Swayze is going to show up.

Paul (02:04.733)
I am shocked that I've never, because I feel like I have known the entire Patrick Swayze canon and this one snuck by me. So I'm gonna have to watch it.

Jason Herbert (02:12.346)
I feel like you have homework. It's actually good. Like it's like it's a fun movie, but it actually has a lot to say about like immigration and stuff like that because there's all these ideas like Sicilians come to America. They're like, you know, they're like we grow rocks for a living. And that was kind of like the, you know, epithet of like these poor Appalachians from Kentucky. You know, it's like, like they're supposed to be the backwards people, but that's the way Sicilians are treated. You know, I mean, there, there, there's, there's some neat class dynamics that go on.

Paul (02:34.129)
Yeah.

Jason Herbert (02:37.778)
Like I love it when movies are actually talking about stuff that's maybe they don't even like fully embrace that they're doing. Yeah. You know, so that's not going to happen tonight though, cause this might be the best film ever made in the history of movies. Like there's this, there's Godfather one and two. yeah. you know what? You know, there's only one word that Godfather wanted to don't have. And we're to talk about that word a lot tonight. I'm not going to say the word yet. We're going do it.

Dart Adams (02:41.481)
Realize that they're doing it? Yeah.

Paul (02:43.003)
Yeah.

Dart Adams (02:55.98)
I mean they're all quotable. They're all extremely quotable.

Dart Adams (03:04.001)
Yes.

Jason Herbert (03:06.984)
How about first things first, let's introduce you guys. Dart, you and Paul have never met before. You guys have never talked, right? Awesome, that'll be perfect. All right, let's do some introductions and then we'll jump into the film. Paul, you were here first. You introduce yourself.

Dart Adams (03:12.69)
No, we have not.

Dart Adams (03:17.739)
Yeah.

Paul (03:19.741)
All right, I'm Paul Galliardi, a good Sicilian boy from also from Appalachia too. My family is from coal country in Pennsylvania. So and I do love bourbon. And I'm a teaching, teaching associate professor at Marquette University. And I wrote a book on the Federal Theater Project. And I'm currently working on a research project on ice shows of the 20th century, like the ice capades and

Jason Herbert (03:23.304)
Hahaha.

Paul (03:48.253)
ice follies and yeah, so I know cutting edge very well and I'm very excited to be here.

Jason Herbert (03:56.37)
Okay, I didn't think we were actually gonna have someone qualified to speak on this film. than that, Dart and I are gonna be like, come in just like, love this movie so much. I got a question for, do you know Ben Lindsay part, Paul, over at Marquette? He's a student over there. And Brian Rhinflesh is a friend of mine over there. Yeah, so I had forgotten you were actually at Marquette. All right, Dart, you wanna introduce yourself, sir?

Dart Adams (03:59.346)
You

Paul (04:00.977)
Okay.

Paul (04:08.317)
I know the name. I don't know if you've ever actually met.

Paul (04:15.302)
yeah, okay.

Dart Adams (04:15.66)
Dard Adams, born, raised, Bostonian, self-entitled, Roxbury, it's important. Journalist, historian, author, fact-checked a lot of books, did a few this year. Currently, you can find me in...

Docu-series is like, there's gonna be a theme. Celtic City, Believers, the Boston Red Sox. I'm currently working on a documentary right now about the Boston shootout and a mini-documentary about Reggie Lewis, the Boston Celtic who passed away in 1993. like any kid or teenager that grew up in the late 80s, early 90s that had a VCR and a video card to current, I...

was very much into this cult classic of a film called The Cutting Edge. And yes, it was about ice skating, but that didn't matter because sports films are sports films. And if it's quotable and it's entertaining, you're going to watch it several times over.

Jason Herbert (05:27.795)
All right. All right. Before we get into the film, now I got to ask you a thing. got to start. got to ask you about Rick Pitino and the Celtics. Okay. Listen, here's the thing. If Rick Pitino doesn't leave Kentucky, he wins, he wins more games. He passes everybody like Kentucky, all Kentuckians, all of my people look at this going. If Pitino doesn't go to the Celtics, we win approximately 75 more national championships. Like we were on the verge and then Tim Duncan.

Dart Adams (05:33.772)
Sure. yeah.

Dart Adams (05:39.094)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Herbert (05:57.106)
has to wait an extra year and like graduate and then he goes in for the lottery and of course, you know, that draws Petito out to Celtics thinking they're just gonna get him.

Dart Adams (06:04.171)
Yeah.

Jason Herbert (06:07.421)
for every Kentucky and has this we get it. I understand why he had to go to Boston, right? But it's like, dude, it broke our it broke us in ways.

Dart Adams (06:20.468)
to Boston broke us. Now what's hilarious is Bostonians, love tradition, we love basketball, and what's wild is there is a straight parallel between Boston Celtics fandom and Kentucky Wildcats fandom. You can find Kentucky Wildcats fans amongst Bostonians, which is why for some odd reason, so many kids from Massachusetts ended up going and signing in with Kentucky.

Jason Herbert (06:22.67)
Hahaha!

Dart Adams (06:49.663)
Wayne Turner, who's from Roxbury, ended up signing with Kentucky. Yep. Yes, exactly. He ends up leaving Worcester, Massachusetts, from Worcester Barncoat. I was actually there the day Rick Metino came to visit. And he ends up signing with Kentucky. You know, there's a few other guys that came over. when he decides I'm going to leave, the only place I'd leave Kentucky for is the Boston, is the Boston Celtics.

Jason Herbert (06:50.707)
Turner, burner and one.

Jason Herbert (07:15.688)
right there.

Dart Adams (07:19.915)
And when he comes, he's expecting, okay, the Boston Celtics have the highest odds to get one and two in the 1997 draft lottery. And what happens is, he's like, I'm going to draft Tim Duncan, I'm going to draft Keith Van Horn, and I'm going to bring nothing but banners here to Boston. Three and six. He drafts Chauncey Billups, who we didn't want, and Ron Mercer.

Jason Herbert (07:29.009)
In the draft, yeah.

Dart Adams (07:45.611)
who also didn't want, although he was a guard in college. Problem is, if you're gonna play a shooting guard, lead shooting guard in the NBA, defend your position and hit threes. Ron Mercer was not able to do both, or either, I should say, in the NBA. 131 games later, he ships him off. 51 games later, he ships off Chauncey Billups. And Rick Pitino realized something. I can't trade people in college.

but you can trade them in the NBA. You can't carve an NBA team into your image because you can't recruit. And all these things fell apart and he realized that Boston is not a media market where you want to alienate people like Red Auerbach or the entire Boston city and think that you're going to get them back and he couldn't.

He would tell the players and my god, Dee Brown, Rick Fox, anybody who was there will tell you. He would turn to the players, Dana Barrow tells the stories, he turned to the team and say, nobody's here to see you guys play, they're here to see me coach and you're making me look bad. And he would sell books like Success is a Choice, know, and he would repeat things that people said to him. I guess success is a choice for these guys. He said that during.

Jason Herbert (08:58.132)
Mm.

Dart Adams (09:11.622)
a session with the media. And I'm like, what do you think you're gonna coach? and he wanted the team to press NBA guards. He wanted them to press NBA guards. And he made Travis Knight shoot threes. Travis Knight from Yukon. So it was a disaster and I'm glad he's gone. And he ran the entire team into the ground and old Jim O'Brien had to pull him back and the Celtics started winning pretty much shortly after he left. So.

Jason Herbert (09:35.048)
Mm-hmm.

Dart Adams (09:39.592)
He went back to college where belonged. So, you know, it is what it is.

Jason Herbert (09:43.177)
Yeah. mean, look, then we can, you know, Kentucky's, also had the Calipari going off to the Nats before he came before he went to Memphis and us and so forth. And Calipari says, listen, at the end of the day, Patino has done his Mia Coppa. He's come back. He's gotten the good graces of the big, and I think he's trying to work. I think he's thinking now about legacy. think he's. Yeah. You know, and stuff like, I'm just like, I'm on the Mark Pope bandwagon at this point in time. I'm like, I think Mark, I think Pope can coach.

Dart Adams (09:49.374)
Yeah.

Dart Adams (10:01.556)
He's trying to get pep in now.

Jason Herbert (10:13.3)
what he put together last year quickly. We'll see this year because they got like, they got like a $22 million payroll for Kentucky this year. So it's, it's a lot. So, um, all right. For people who did not tune in for, for DART and I, and I had to go off on, on this thing. Just wait for our new podcast called DART and I go off on tangents, uh, coming to you new. All right. Um,

Everything has a history, this podcast. this case, this pod, actually this episode comes from the most unlikely place, right? So Dart and I were on a pod with a couple other guys and we're actually talking about the history of the Beastie Boys. And you let it slip that this is like your movie. And I just filed it in the back of my head. Why Dart? Like, why is this your jam?

Dart Adams (10:51.592)
Yeah.

Dart Adams (10:56.126)
Mm-hmm.

Dart Adams (11:04.297)
Okay, I'm a writer, I'm a journalist, I'm a historian who learned to read at age two. And in my family, there's nothing we love more than the word, the written word. Now, abstract that with growing up loving film and television. The difference with television was television you watched and it was entertaining, but rarely did you get somebody saying something really clever. When you did, you valued that show.

Jason Herbert (11:31.038)
Mm-hmm.

Dart Adams (11:33.895)
Then you get Cable in 1990. And then you realize, my God, cable shows are pretty much written by these people that write and they love the written word so much that they, it's like something that they want these actors on screen to say the cleverest thing, the most out there thing, because they want everyone to know I wrote that. But then that's the same thing with screenwriting.

Sometimes you have these authors and you have these like amazing screenwriters who write these things and they want you want everybody to you want them to love it so much that they find a way to get the words on the screen subtitles or they find a way through whatever method they can they get the screenplay so they could read those words and When I'm coming up I realized that those are the films that I gravitate to the ones with dialogue that everybody repeats

Jason Herbert (12:27.933)
Mm-hmm.

Dart Adams (12:28.252)
the quotable ones. And here's the thing, you can be a classic great traditional film and have amazing dialogue that people quote, or you can be a really bad film that has dialogue people quote, or you can become a classic cult film and have dialogue people quote. There's several ways it's gonna cat. In this particular instance, this is one of those cult films that has dialogue that's so quotable, you could sit there and recite it top to bottom.

And myself and my younger brother, we got a cable, we had a VCR, and then we had a recorder. So you put one tape in the player, you have another tape in the VCR, you have your rental account, you rent stuff, and if you like something, you would dub it immediately. This was one of those movies. So there are so many parts of this film, there's so many layers to it, there's so much nuance, and there's so many lines.

Jason Herbert (13:03.675)
Mm-hmm.

Dart Adams (13:20.952)
rapid fire lines set back and forth between these between one or two people on screen sometimes three that it makes you fall in love with cinema film and the possibility of what it's like to write and have characters bounce off of each other so this is one of those quotable films that I love that kind of led me to you know wanting to have a first feature or be a screenwriter

Jason Herbert (13:42.067)
Yeah, we're gonna get into the writing here in a bit because there's like, if you don't know who wrote this film, if you're listening in right now, we got a bomb to drop on you. When we tell you who actually wrote this film. All right. then like, so I'm talking, Paul, how did this come about? You said something to me on Blue Sky, you're like, hey, I want to do this pod with you sometime. And I'm like, I got a guy. Right? So what about you? Like, what's your relationship to the film?

Dart Adams (13:50.375)
you

Paul (14:01.853)
Yeah.

Paul (14:07.705)
It's funny because I grew up playing hockey and there weren't many hockey movies that we would watch. Like same thing, like Dart, my friends and I, would watch certain, like we had Slapshot, we had Youngblood, and then later The Mighty Ducks. I was too old for The Mighty Ducks when they came out and I probably saw it was kind of hokey. But this one hit in middle school, I think.

Jason Herbert (14:20.114)
Mm.

Paul (14:32.497)
And the appeal was like, the guys were on a Team USA sweater and he's playing the Olympics. I'm going to watch that. And he's only playing hockey for like 10 seconds, the entire movie. And that's it. I think I'm 90 % sure I saw it in theaters, but then it was just like, what is on repeat and what do people bring to parties? And what are we rewatching constantly? I had not seen it.

in years until I rewatched it for the pod. I found like this cult, yeah, the cult cinema aspect to it and the quotability. And I had a great time watching it. And I like both like, I can appreciate it and like make fun of it, but also just love it at the same time. I, that's what you want from a movie at some point, right? You want the joy.

Dart Adams (15:02.121)
Okay.

Jason Herbert (15:24.872)
Yeah, so I'm playing Helldivers 2 earlier today, right? With like three other guys. And I'm like, yeah, what you doing later? I'm like, I gotta do this film, right? And everybody, to a person, whenever you mention this movie, everybody's like, I love this movie. Nobody doesn't love The Cutting Edge. This is just one of those like movies that sparks joy. You we did this on the watch party on the Sunday night thing we do on Blue Sky a few months back. And we had a huge, huge turnout that night because people have this intense relationship.

Paul (15:27.549)
Mm-hmm.

Dart Adams (15:38.971)
Okay. you

Jason Herbert (15:53.491)
I think Dart, you're absolutely right. Like there's, there's this aspect that takes you back. Cause for me, there were like a cadre of films. There was like this and Friday and Tombstone that me and the guys would like, I'd go to my buddy's house and we would just watch like over like, like wear out the video on this. Right. And it just became like this thing. where do you guys want to start on this? I got, I got two different paths. We can go here. We can talk about cast or we could talk about this as a hallmark of the nineties.

Dart Adams (16:02.557)
Mm. Mm.

Dart Adams (16:07.974)
Okay.

Paul (16:11.697)
Mm-hmm.

Dart Adams (16:22.634)
Okay, I'm gonna open up with just a facts about it. This is crazy to me. Okay, so this movie opens in like spring 92 after the 1992 Winter Olympics. It already happened. Months, a month after it already happened. So there's no lead in.

Jason Herbert (16:24.974)
go for it. Please.

Go nuts.

Jason Herbert (16:38.921)
Mm-hmm.

Dart Adams (16:45.144)
It's no, hey we're gonna get people who are big winter sports fans or winter Olympic event fans into the theater. No, you're not getting that at all. And then the craziest part is that when it opens in theaters, it's going up against like white men can't jump. So it gets pretty much buried, you know, coming out the gate. And the thing is that...

Some people saw it in theater not a lot. They only made like 20 million something, between 23 and 25 million in the box office. Where it really took off was as a rental and on cable. And the thing is that when it really, really took off, the holiday season in 1992, I don't know why between the Thanksgiving and Christmas to New Year's holiday in 92 going into 1993,

Jason Herbert (17:21.236)
Mm-hmm.

Dart Adams (17:37.67)
This film explodes in popularity. All right. And I remember being in school at the beginning of the 92, 93 school year. And we had this class called independent study. Basically it was 30 kids in a library in Boston in the inner city. And what did we talk about for the first two months of that class? This film. We would just randomly quote it. Right. And so, and then the other thing is that

Jason Herbert (17:49.716)
Mm.

Dart Adams (18:06.233)
This is the era of the first wave of video games on Sega Genesis, the hockey video games that were popular, the NHL series, before they even had full licensing, right? Yes. Yes, exactly.

Jason Herbert (18:13.682)
Mm-hmm.

Paul (18:16.328)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Herbert (18:18.324)
You know what I'm thinking about now? Seeing the same swingers.

Paul (18:23.314)
You made, make, made Gretzky bleed, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Herbert (18:23.57)
Right. Yes, absolutely.

Dart Adams (18:28.693)
So there's that and all these things come together and I think I wrote something down November 14th 1992 is when the cutting-edge enters the top video rentals chart on billboard at number 13 enters It entered at number 13 It had already been out for a while. So that means that there was this explosion

Jason Herbert (18:53.416)
Mm.

Dart Adams (18:56.869)
of people renting it during that winter. And then it gets higher and higher and higher. It's like near the top. And like, White Men Can't Jump is like just above it by the time we get to like December. And like the only time I've seen that was another extremely quotable cult classic in our community that is not considered a great film at all. Princess Under the Sherry Moon. So that tells me everything I need to know about the reach of this film and why it's so beloved. I can't...

mention this film and I haven't since like 1993 without somebody saying everybody's favorite quotable line from this film. I'm not going to say it here. No, we're not gonna say it yet.

Jason Herbert (19:34.933)
We don't say the word yet. All right, we're gonna wait. Okay. Okay. Can I jump in actually? Cause I have thoughts on this. don't know. Paul, like, like you watch this film and it's, you know, you know, you want vibe. get out of this. I get dead poet society vibe out of this. Here's why. Right. For me growing up in like Kentucky, I I've never been up to like new England before. And so they're doing all this stuff. There's like this wealthy class. Like if you're like, if you're like working class, like there's almost like this unattainable vibe of like this new

wealthy New England kind of thing. running in the, like, I love the montage, the training montages in this film critically underrated, right? but like all the holiday scenes are like Thanksgiving, Christmas. Like, like there's a sense like Paul, you're rocking that. You're rocking a very lovely sweater right now. Right? Like it's like, I want to put this, I like, I want to put this on and feel warm. I don't know. Paul, what you think?

Paul (20:10.6)
Mm-mm.

Paul (20:22.558)
Thank you.

Paul (20:30.042)
thinking about it, because I was rewatching a little bit of it today and I always forget how much is like the holidays, right? And it's like that, you know, what Dart was saying, like, is does it hit because, you know, it has enough of a holiday vibe for people, you know, and enough of like a vision of what the other half is doing at Christmas and New Year's, right, that is appealing. I mean, like, he's working class schlub from Minnesota.

cheese like landed gentry from Connecticut. And I think I agree with you, Jason, that idea of there is something class-based that I found appealing as a kid. But yeah, the New Year's Eve scene in this film is one of my favorites. I don't know why. It's just such, it is so outside my...

of how you celebrate a holiday. I think that's it. I think it's just like so over the top and I kind of, I'm here for it. Absolutely.

Jason Herbert (21:35.816)
Well, it falls into that trope, For the New Year's, was like when Harry met Sally or these other things, right? Another film we've done here on the pod recently, which is like, it's the uncomfortable first embrace, right? we have to, like, we know these two from the very time, right? Dart, you're gonna say?

Dart Adams (21:41.025)
What's your word?

Paul (21:48.755)
Mm-hmm.

Dart Adams (21:53.709)
Yeah, because they go, it's, ugh, like, how do we negotiate this? Like, ugh, ugh, all right, that's over, that's done, that's finished. And it's not, it absolutely isn't.

Jason Herbert (22:00.308)
Right. We don't have to acknowledge this, right? And that's the tension is the fight of like acknowledging we clearly, you know, want to make baby skaters or something. don't, know, there's a lot there. Let's talk about the cast on this film. We've got two leads in this film who were positioned in 1992 to do very well.

Dart Adams (22:12.254)
Hahaha.

Paul (22:13.063)
you

Jason Herbert (22:30.228)
And for whatever reason, like it doesn't quite happen. got DB Sweeney who's coming off of a stint in Lonesome Dove, if I recall correctly, right? And then I'm going to need a moment because I have to talk about Moira Kelly and 15 year old Jason Herbert just, oh my God, I was so sold on this woman. know, was she 21, 22, 23 when they're filming this? She's young.

Dart Adams (22:37.699)
Look.

Jason Herbert (22:58.58)
just a little bit older than the third chair trombone player from Callaway County High School. Like, I'm still shocked she doesn't explode, but I've got some surprises here. And I think that there's a thing here. Do you guys know that she hurts herself when they're filming this movie? Right? Do you know what other film she was supposed to be in? Another classic sports film.

Dart Adams (23:17.706)
Yep.

Paul (23:23.206)
Is it a league of their own?

Jason Herbert (23:24.793)
League of their own. She's supposed to play the little sister.

Dart Adams (23:25.942)
Yep. Yep. And then went to Lori Petty.

Paul (23:27.624)
Yeah.

Jason Herbert (23:30.15)
Yep. I think if you take this film, League of their own, Mora Kelly goes supernova. That's my thought. And I think that it just is one of those things that doesn't happen. What are you guys thoughts on this, on the casting of this film? Cause it's not just like Terry O'Quinn, pre-lost Terry O'Quinn is greatness. Like he just feels rich to me. But anyway, go ahead.

Paul (23:30.366)
Mm-hmm.

Dart Adams (23:50.422)
Yeah.

Paul (23:51.71)
Mm-hmm.

Paul (23:55.954)
Yeah.

Jason Herbert (23:59.706)
What are your thoughts here? What are your thoughts when you think about DB Sweeney and Moira Kelly? Paul?

Paul (24:04.966)
Mora Kelly, yeah, and that's the same thing. I forgot how much I enjoy her performance in this. And she is that perfect snarky and snooty and demanding Kate, right, from Taming of the Shrew, right? And I forgot that she's in the David Lynch fire walk with me.

film and she's fantastic in that too. So I was kind of like fantasy booking like what would happen to her. Like I can't believe like her career didn't take off. And D.B. Sweeney is always somebody that like I think was just so ubiquitous at this time period. I think Eight Man Owl I think is his best best acting. And and here like he he he balances that kind of arrogant hockey player.

Dart Adams (24:50.284)
absolutely.

Jason Herbert (24:50.868)
Mm-hmm, yeah.

Paul (24:59.164)
with someone who has like some legit feelings for this woman. think it's a very, they're both, lead performances are really, really strong.

Dart Adams (25:09.795)
For me, Moira Kelly was, first of all, everybody had a crush on her. Everybody had a crush on her. I remember, I watched, I joked, my younger brother was joking with me because there's a show called, what was it called? Tree Hill, One Tree Hill.

Jason Herbert (25:16.66)
Everyone still has a crush on her.

Dart Adams (25:31.21)
And I remember when it started, my brother looked at me says, wait a minute. So there's a TV show about a bunch of kids playing basketball in North Carolina. One of the kids is a bookworm who writes. And the other kid is his dad left his family for another family. And the moms are Moira Kelly and Barbara Allen Woods. So there's two hot moms on different sides of town. And he was just like,

As long as Mora Kelly's in it, I know you're watching. So there was one thing there, right? And Mora Kelly was kind of lined up to be like the next, you know, star because she had this, she could have been in Ligadon, she had Fire Walk with me, HBO kept trying to do things to blow her up. there was the film, there was an adaptation of a play, Daybreak, I think it was her and Cuba Gooding Jr.

Jason Herbert (26:08.114)
Mm.

Jason Herbert (26:15.752)
Yes!

Jason Herbert (26:23.23)
The Cuba Gooding Jr. Yeah.

Dart Adams (26:27.37)
It just like it didn't happen for there was a with honors that just didn't break out Joe Pesci of vehicle for him. It's like same thing with DBS we need fire in the sky didn't blow up. So it was like yes, they kept trying these vehicles for them that just like didn't work, but they were like these actors that always worked. You know whether it was television whether was bit parts they constantly were working but.

Jason Herbert (26:38.686)
Love that movie.

Dart Adams (26:55.913)
I think that Marvel Carly and D.B. Sweeney were perfect casting, but I think the person who really made it work that we haven't talked about yet is a man named Roy Doctress who played Pam Chenko, who made this all work in their scenes together. Le gano, ni le gano, is gre area, you know? It's like, yes. The scenes that they had together.

Jason Herbert (27:06.963)
Yes.

Jason Herbert (27:15.324)
Mmm, what a bitch.

Dart Adams (27:24.275)
Even when they did minimal speaking, when they just looked at each other, like there's the scene where it's like, where do I place my hands?

Jason Herbert (27:26.548)
Mm.

Jason Herbert (27:34.12)
So well done.

Paul (27:35.048)
Mm-hmm.

Dart Adams (27:35.572)
And I was like, you can't buy that. Like, I don't know, I wish I could have been around for just maybe a few table reads to see how the like, how they played off of each other. Because so many of these scenes, it's just them and you're automatically, you bought in. You are immersed, you know, I am engaged with just those two by themselves in a rink, speaking to each other. Like the scene where he dares her to play hockey.

Paul (27:59.167)
Mm-hmm.

Dart Adams (28:04.48)
They just have conversations. Yes, Doug can read, you know? I don't know why you don't check it all and start a think tank. So where did you matriculate, Pong? And she says, I had tutors. Close as book, excellent tutors. That read is amazing. And the thing is that when you're a teenager, I was what, how old was I? I was like maybe 17, 18 when I saw this for the first time. And I'm like, I didn't grasp it. How did?

Jason Herbert (28:04.496)
yeah.

Paul (28:08.508)
Yeah.

Dart Adams (28:33.429)
How does she know to do that? How many takes did it take to do that? When did it come up with that? That interaction, that back and forth? Like, how did they know that the way that they did this, you know, would engage people? What did they know? Or did it just work for the director and it was like, all right, next scene? But either way, that informed when I wanted to write or I wanted to do, you know, television and film, if I can't get the two to interact like that,

Jason Herbert (28:35.155)
Hmm.

Dart Adams (29:01.524)
they're supposed to be on screen together, I'm doing it wrong. That informed everything I knew about drawing in an audience and having them suspend belief that these two are building a relationship, whatever it may be, romantic, whatever. I'm not going to believe that they're going to get there if I don't believe them here when they're barely at each other's throats just trying to negotiate how are gonna work together.

Paul (29:25.864)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Herbert (29:26.675)
Yeah, I think Dart, what you're getting at here is like, you know, the unsung hero of this film might actually be the casting director because this film lives or dies based on the relationship between D.B. Sweetie and Moira Kelly, right? And the other actors are terrific. And I want to come back to the coach in a second, right? But this doesn't work unless these two are just bouncing off of one another. And this like sense early on of like, don't like you, but

Dart Adams (29:55.807)
Okay.

Jason Herbert (29:56.649)
I are like, like you, but I don't want to like you, right? Very, and there's a lot of trust there. You know, I think you guys know there's a whole series of like a, a sequel to this we'll get into in a minute. And they made the reason why neither of them were in those sequels is because they made an agreement not to appear without the other. And it's like, I like the fact knowing on the outside that these two were friends, like they made like, and there's like, there was like a real trust there, you know, at some sense, you know?

Dart Adams (30:07.54)
You're welcome.

Dart Adams (30:15.423)
No.

Jason Herbert (30:26.708)
I kept thinking of like, you Ukrainian alcohol, alcohol, psychosis. I'm like, Oh, Ukraine. That's relevant today. This is officially a history movie. We can talk about this. Uh, uh, and so forth. Um,

Dart Adams (30:31.506)
Yes.

Paul (30:36.05)
Yeah, yeah, there you go.

Jason Herbert (30:42.324)
Dart, you're talking about the words. Oh, before we get into it, I'm sorry. One other thing. I got to talk about Mora Kelly's face. I wrote down what I was writing when I'm watching that this morning. Mora Kelly gives great face. And by that, like the scene when like her dad is walking Doug out of the office and she's like, oh, I was just coming to say goodbye. And he's like, ah, hold that thought. says, Doug's gonna stick around.

Dart Adams (31:04.394)
wow!

Jason Herbert (31:11.354)
And the look, the acting she does just like the

No, the sheer terror. And she has moments like this throughout the film where she's just communicating so much stuff there.

Paul (31:26.515)
Mm-hmm.

She's so, I was even thinking the scene where she goes after they win, they get placed in the Olympic team and the first time she has alcohol and she gets hammered. And he goes and sleeps with the other, the rival skater. And I think she's only wearing sunglasses, but like it's still like her face is projecting disgust and contempt and fury in a way that is just, it's fantastic. I would love to know how many.

Jason Herbert (31:36.052)
Mm-hmm.

You

Dart Adams (31:39.333)
yeah!

Dart Adams (31:46.556)
yeah.

Paul (31:57.439)
how many takes there were for each of those scenes, but I suspect not a lot because I think she was so, she's so skilled at using her face and it's just, it's remarkable.

Dart Adams (32:07.902)
There's that scene and what sets it up is crazy because it was another thing that happens that had me like, wait a minute, this is not some run of the mill movie. Because when he's like, all right, he writes the check for him to leave and Doug sees the check and he's like, double or nothing.

Jason Herbert (32:23.188)
Mmm.

Dart Adams (32:31.134)
crumples up the check. And I'm like, wait, what is happening here? Who wrote this? Who would do this? And then they leave laughing and you see her face. And I'm like, okay, that didn't go the way I expected it to go. So like, was just, who wrote this damn movie? And it was that early in the film. I'm like, wait a minute. How have I had all these emotions?

and all these things. Like, what is, how, I don't know how this is going to go. This is not, formulaic. I know there, there's gonna be a will they, won't they, but it's not formulaic. It's like when, when I saw when Harry met Sally, I remember my younger brother and I looked at the screen like, this is a romantic comedy? You can do this? And it was like that. was like,

Jason Herbert (33:05.202)
Right.

Dart Adams (33:23.011)
I know we're going to get to it because we've seen the poster, we've seen the cover of the VHS tape. He's like, but how are they going to get there if they're starting out like this? There's something else going on here. So yeah, that kind of rocked me too.

Jason Herbert (33:40.531)
Yeah, you know, it's got all those traditional elements of the rom-com, right? The will, they won't, they, we know, we know three cores weigh in, they're going to have the hurdle they've got, they've got to like overcome to come back together in the, in the, in the last little bit. It's, there's a reason why those beats happen is that we expect them when we don't get them, we're almost disappointed sometimes. and so forth. And I read once, like when people talk about pacing in a film,

Dart Adams (33:57.073)
Yeah.

Jason Herbert (34:05.62)
saying, this movie moves really well. It's because it's actually hitting those beats when people are spacting them too, right? It's not really about the dialogue. But Dard, I think at this point, Tom, we've got to talk. He's like, who wrote this film? The three of us know who wrote this film, and it's time to talk about who wrote Dard. I feel like this is your baby here. You want to talk about Dard Adams, who wrote this movie? And why does that matter? It's so utterly not shocking. Knowing.

Dart Adams (34:09.981)
You

Dart Adams (34:18.887)
Okay.

Dart Adams (34:32.049)
So the film was written by man named Tony Gillard.

Jason Herbert (34:35.838)
Never.

Dart Adams (34:37.776)
Never heard of them. All right, so this is gonna be funny because I'm going to do something that like people hate, but I do it for effect. He wrote the screenplays of The Bourne Identity, The Bourne Supremacy, The Bourne Ultimatum, and he also wrote Michael Clayton and Duplicity, right? That's what, that, but also he wrote several plays, right? So he is well versed in knowing this beat works here. These are how characters play off each other. This is gonna work with an audience.

Jason Herbert (34:38.526)
There are.

Jason Herbert (34:54.279)
Mm-hmm.

Dart Adams (35:07.856)
This is gonna work with a different audiences. Because if you can write for the stage and write for screen, it's a different animal entirely. So you understand beats, you understand meter, you understand pacing, you understand all these intricate things, the interplay between actor and actor. When do you do things to affect change?

When do you do things to evoke emotion without there even being words written? What can the actor do? Or just finding the right actors to do that. You know what you've written and you know where you want to arrive and having the right people in place to do that. But in order to do that, you have to be a master in terms of like the written word or putting things out there so that they come together. And Tony Gilroy is a master at all of that.

and he's done it in multiple levels so but at the time I don't know that I don't know I didn't take your voice yeah I no idea what this is

Jason Herbert (36:10.068)
No, no, this is baby Tony Gowery, frankly. This is like his early career stuff. I mean, this is 1992. So he's writing this, what, 90, 91? You know, he's writing this 30 something years ago. It's kind of crazy when you think about it.

Dart Adams (36:22.544)
Yeah. And he cleaned up a lot of other scripts too, which is the thing that we really don't, we really could get into, but we'll leave it there.

Jason Herbert (36:26.632)
Yeah.

Jason Herbert (36:33.684)
Paul, what are your thoughts on Tony Gilroy?

Paul (36:36.474)
I don't think I ever made the connection until I started my recent rewatches. it just like, the name looks familiar. And as I had to like lie down for a minute, was like, didn't, was shocked. But I think like, yeah, you could say like, there are points where you'd say like, this is kind of early screenplay in a guy's career. like, there's just like, yeah, I like what Dark said, that scene of crumbling up.

the check and doing the double or nothing. It's, it is so, like on the one hand, it takes you, like you're like kind of shocked it's happening at that moment. But then the more you think about it, like it is so in tune with who this character is, right? He is reckless and dangerous. As a hockey guy, I was always like, like the scene where he, like his helmet that he's wearing, that crappy Wayne Gretzky helmet that provided no protection whatsoever.

Dart Adams (37:15.899)
and

Dart Adams (37:31.119)
us.

Paul (37:34.303)
He's sleeping with an East German figure skater the night before the game, right? He is reckless. He is dangerous. And like that baller kind of move of like, I'm going to do this. And that gains the respect of somebody who, the dad who's like, I want this to happen. They're all kind of desperate characters. And man, it's good. It's just like, there are just these moments that just like, he gets the characters, he gets the situation, he gets the pacing.

And yeah, like I'm just the more and more I think about it, the more impressed I am with the script, the screenplay.

Jason Herbert (38:11.246)
I just feel like this film could have so easily been a made for TV movie with some lower production value. it's like Tony Gower's writing just elevates this to a level really. When I watched it, I was like, this film doesn't deserve to have writing this good, right? It doesn't feel like he's at a level already. And this is not a disservice to the film because we all love the movie. We love the actors. We love so much about this film. But it's like, this is really playing it like this next level.

Dart Adams (38:36.923)
Wow

Jason Herbert (38:39.828)
And as a testament to my fandom of Tony Gilroy, I have, I only have a tattoo of one. Do you know what this is? That is, that's, that's Orabesh, right? Which is the written language of Star Wars, right?

Dart Adams (38:54.822)
Yes, and we're getting to. Yes.

Jason Herbert (38:58.58)
of Andor, right? And the scene in the first season of Andor, when they're on the planet, when they're in the prison, and he's continually asking how many guards on the level, on the next level, how many guards, how many guards? And he looks at him says, and they finally get this point, he's like, never more than 12, right? There's no going back here. That's what this means on my wrist is there's no going back. Like, there's no quitting now. We have to keep moving forward.

Dart Adams (39:14.874)
Thank

Dart Adams (39:19.864)
Yes.

Yes.

Jason Herbert (39:28.178)
Right. So, mean, also, I'm so good.

Dart Adams (39:32.122)
Gilroy cleaned up a couple of scripts for people, but he also is the co-writer of one of my all-time favorite sci-fi films, which is Rogue One. Yes. Rogue One, I'm a huge fan of Rogue One, and so is my brother, because we're Gen Xers, and we loved everything post-apocalyptic, but also we were huge fans of Robo Tech. And Robo Tech pretty much starts because aliens come, completely decimate the Earth, and...

Jason Herbert (39:41.19)
please. You should see. Yeah, up here.

Dart Adams (39:58.436)
for three generations afterwards, the humans have to fight these alien beings from a Earth that's been almost completely eradicated. And that is kind of the theme we get or the feeling we get from Rogue One. They're going to lose, but we still want to watch anyway.

Jason Herbert (40:13.62)
Yeah, they have to lose the balls it took to write this to where, cause they wrote an ending to Rogue One where they survive and it doesn't work. And God, the way that Andor rips your guts out because you have to, I don't know if you guys were like me, but when I finished that last episode of the second season, Andor, I had to watch Rogue One like immediately, right? Like rolled right into it, right? And it just hits you so much harder.

Paul (40:16.019)
Mm-hmm.

Dart Adams (40:29.184)
actually.

Dart Adams (40:36.249)
I did.

Jason Herbert (40:42.29)
My Star Wars hot take is I think Cassie Nando might be my second favorite Star Wars character of all time at this point. I'm like, like I just, I knowing now like what happens with him, Jen Erso, the whole crew. That's the storyline that's compelling. There's no magic here. There's no wizards. There's no mystical energy. These are just people who are just trying to get shit done.

Dart Adams (40:55.864)
Yeah.

Dart Adams (41:04.867)
worrying about midi-chlorian levels when we're watching this at all.

Jason Herbert (41:08.594)
No, no. And the beauty of Andor is it shows the real power, the real threat of the empire is not some maniacal emperor. It's the overwhelming, you know, machinery of this empire. You know, that's how I can just keep throwing things at you. Now we're talking about Gilroy here. I got to talk about Michael Clayton. Like, think it's Clooney's best work. I don't think it's close. It's...

Paul (41:22.291)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Herbert (41:37.97)
You know that last scene that it doesn't look like I'm negotiating scene is just.

How do you make George Clooney into a loser? Right? And that was a thing he struggled with.

Dart Adams (41:47.652)
See, that's the thing. Because I talked about this with somebody else. There's a film that people hate. It's called Southland Tales. And the reason why Southland Tales people hate it is because it messes with you. I say it's mindfuckery. What it does is it takes a bunch of people that are known to be heroic and in heroic roles, and they make them all losers. And it takes a bunch of people in comedic roles and makes them all the villains.

Jason Herbert (42:08.852)
Mm.

Jason Herbert (42:12.446)
Yeah.

Dart Adams (42:16.633)
And it immediately makes you bristle at that. So when you see this man on screen, who you know is always cool, always gets the woman, you know, is always the main guy. He's always, you know, the focus of everything. Like, uh, pick up. Yeah. Pick a film here. Pick a film. I'd march like, pick a film. He's the guy. You know what I'm saying? Uh, three kinks. He's the guy. And Michael Clayton, you completely have to throw all that out when you're watching what's happening on screen.

Jason Herbert (42:30.739)
He's gotta figure it out.

Jason Herbert (42:39.784)
Mm-hmm.

Dart Adams (42:46.039)
And that is tough for an audience to do.

Jason Herbert (42:49.14)
Tom Wilkinson, man. That whole scene where they're standing there and Wilkinson's holding the bread. He's like, if you wanted to come after me, you should have come after me in Wisconsin. know, it's like, you know, Paul, there you go.

Dart Adams (42:50.799)
yeah.

Paul (43:00.796)
Yeah, never come after anybody in Wisconsin. Yeah, it's just the last thing you'll experience.

Jason Herbert (43:04.264)
Hahaha

Jason Herbert (43:09.428)
All right, I have to ask you guys a question. How do we feel about the big move here? And I've got some other side questions to ask you. The Pamchenko, right? We know this is like, how do we feel about this as a device? Because I'm trying to figure out the mathematics. The math doesn't, like I am willing to just suspend disbelief because I don't, what do we think about this move? We know it's coming, right? It's ultimate symbol of love.

Dart Adams (43:18.103)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

dynamics.

Paul (43:33.759)
I don't think it's legal. don't know. I'm totally like it's. No. Yes. It's great. Like it's just so over the top and I can't I can't criticize it, but it makes no sense and you don't you know, you don't care. It's more like a pro wrestling move at a certain point than it is like a figure skating move. And, you know, that's hey, there's a lot of overlap between.

Dart Adams (43:33.986)
So.

Jason Herbert (43:36.776)
Hahaha!

Dart Adams (43:37.737)
Legano ni legano is gregerio.

Jason Herbert (43:40.136)
Cray Area!

Paul (44:00.383)
skating and pro wrestling that people don't want to acknowledge. yeah, it is like, it's just like a perfect amount of like early nineties, like long 1980s sort of sports movie cheese. And yeah.

Dart Adams (44:03.051)
Absolutely.

Dart Adams (44:14.935)
way it was presented. He takes paper, sketches, puts them on the ice, spaces them out in front of them in a serious scene. So you don't even realize that. And he lets them arrive at it on their own. But the first person there is Moira Kelly. And she's supposedly like the smart one, the well-read one, you know, the one that's, you know.

Jason Herbert (44:18.482)
Mm-hmm.

Paul (44:19.091)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Paul (44:25.874)
Mm-hmm.

Dart Adams (44:40.393)
Genius level the one that everybody is we need to find the guy to get her over the top, right? And who comes over from the other side, but you know the reckless guy who's like Is this a bounce throw into a catch?

Dart Adams (44:57.672)
my God. And she's like, no, you can't do that. He's like, my God, that's amazing. The Pam Chango twist. He's like, no. What, you want to name it after you? And that scene is amazing because I forget it's stupid. You know what I'm saying? I forget this is ridiculous. But the way it's presented, it makes it seem like this is a viable thing.

Jason Herbert (45:08.883)
Ha

Paul (45:14.546)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jason Herbert (45:14.834)
Right. You buy in.

Paul (45:18.408)
Mm-hmm.

Dart Adams (45:24.575)
The powers that be don't want anybody to do. No! This is ridiculous! Even though that they are figures of how to do it step by step, drawn on the ice. You're actually taking it seriously.

Paul (45:35.294)
And they're drawn on like pieces of paper look like almost like ancient parchment. Like he's passing along this like wizardry to his like, you know, wizard students. It's just like, it's shot amazingly. again, like, you don't, it doesn't matter. Like it's like, it's completely ludicrous, but you don't care. It's just like, it's perfect. It's perfect.

Dart Adams (45:41.1)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Dart Adams (45:56.929)
leading, the leading, Pam Chinkel says that, he says European nationals, they sweep. It's over. Nobody, nobody can win. They'll get the gold. And then he lays it out. So it already raises the anticipation. This is our only outside shot of getting it. So you already, again, you've thrown out the idea. This is one of the

Paul (46:04.616)
Yes! Yes! Yeah! Yeah.

Jason Herbert (46:05.972)
This is like a Rocky IV element to this.

Dart Adams (46:23.607)
most ridiculous ideas in any sports movie. And also I think the one of the things that has the benefit to it, there were so few movies about skating in a sports film that took skating seriously as this film did because they're training sequences. I feel like if you came up in the early 90s,

Paul (46:40.498)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Herbert (46:40.872)
Let's talk about that.

Dart Adams (46:45.183)
and you made a sports film later and you were like, weren't inspired by or you didn't take any beats from the way they presented the training sequences in the cutting edge, you're lying. You're absolutely lying. Because there's no way you make a sports film and you don't incorporate this, even the way they use music in the sequences, you know, in the training sequences. And I loved, she's...

Paul (46:56.392)
Mm-hmm.

Paul (47:05.864)
Mm-hmm.

Dart Adams (47:14.908)
at is it lunch dinner? Bam! Yeah, it falls asleep. That came out weird and it was perfect.

Jason Herbert (47:18.1)
As she falls asleep.

Jason Herbert (47:24.638)
Well, they have to do this thing here, right? Which is you have an entire generation of people who grew up watching Slapshot and grow up in like during the violence of the eighties when dudes are like knocking the crap out of each other on the hockey. You've got to figure out a way to elevate. And this is a thing. And we see this in like Doug's conversation with his family, right? When he goes back, now I think he's been doing this hyper macho merchant Marine's thing. And he's like, no, I've been doing figure skating and like finger painting.

Dart Adams (47:46.474)
Yeah.

Jason Herbert (47:52.339)
You know, but it's like what they've got to be able to do is raise the physicality to people who don't know anything about figure skating, right? And say, wait a second, these are real athletes doing really intricate muscular sporting stuff that is on par, if not harder than hockey, the toughest thing, right? You've got to make ice skating tough for the audience.

Paul (48:11.706)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Dart Adams (48:16.301)
So a film that pays a lot that should pay more homage and I felt like it did to that to this film is stick it because stick it had to sell that gymnastics are the hardest sport and the athletes are elite the most elite in the world and I don't think it could have gotten that point across

if not for the way they presented what figure skating is, the training and the intensity of it in this film.

Jason Herbert (48:48.456)
I was so afraid you were gonna go with Jim Carter.

Dart Adams (48:51.015)
that's hilarious. And yes, we all did see Kim Carter. Where's that pop-a-whore stand?

Jason Herbert (48:55.454)
Paul, what are your thoughts on the... What are your thoughts? Listen, we all grew up in the 80s. We love montages. What are your thoughts, Paul, on these montages? They work for you.

Paul (49:00.606)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dart Adams (49:01.864)
Yes.

Paul (49:05.17)
They do. I am a fiend for a good montage. The Rocky montages are like part of like my mythology. I love, you know, like his arrogance coming in like the first skating session. And I've never worn figure skates, I, know, like that, like the toe pick, right? And he's trying to do the moon. I did it. I couldn't. Yeah.

Jason Herbert (49:12.18)
Of course.

Jason Herbert (49:27.76)
you're gonna say it. All right, do it. You said it. We made it 49 minutes. All right, keep going.

Dart Adams (49:28.464)
he said it. He said it.

Paul (49:34.527)
But I love her responses to him. I love, as Dark said, the physicality of it, right? And the intricacy of it and how, yeah, I don't think people realize just how radically different a hockey skate and figure skate are, right? Just they perform differently, they wear differently. But I love, yeah, his just exhaustion and I love...

You know, and then as the other training sequences start, like they are basically, they go from like the training of trusting each other to the training, like the, the, working to meet our goal and we're all, it's all about sex, right? Everything is about, we're going to have sex. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah.

Dart Adams (50:17.064)
Yeah, yeah, they're right next to each other face to face pumping iron and lifting. Yeah, I was like, what's going on here?

Jason Herbert (50:23.012)
it's also that song is awesome. What is it that, what's the name? wrote it right on time. Dude, do. I'm in the gym sometimes doing cardio, which never ever, ever happens. But if it did, I'll be banging the right on time. That song is jamming. Paul, you, you're good.

Dart Adams (50:29.18)
Right on time. Right on time.

Dart Adams (50:40.488)
Yes. And also Groove Master, also Groove Master by Mighty Arrow featuring MC Shan, which his part actually sneaks into the film, which cracks me up.

Jason Herbert (50:46.112)
yeah.

Thank you.

Jason Herbert (50:52.84)
Yes. Cause it's a fun scene, right? When he is like, when he is outskated, cause he's got to get to a point where he comes in as a complete novice and then he's got to, he's got to catch and then surpass her in ways. And like, he does that during that groove master scene where that shot where she like goes through his hand and he holds onto it. he's his best line in the entire movie is when he shoots his eyebrows at her right there. When

Dart Adams (51:01.46)
Mm-hmm.

Paul (51:04.798)
Mm-hmm.

Dart Adams (51:19.787)
yeah!

Jason Herbert (51:20.572)
When he's like, he's got this cocky ass green is like, he's like, Yeah, gotcha. You know, I'm like, that's, got I got sugars.

Paul (51:24.402)
Mm-hmm.

Dart Adams (51:24.563)
Mm-hmm.

Dart Adams (51:29.365)
Because the toe pick scene, I think, set up so much. Because in terms of how hard is this? How much of a challenge is this for Doug? Toe pick, toe pick, and she sold it. I don't know how good of a skater she actually was, but.

Jason Herbert (51:47.789)
Mm-hmm.

Dart Adams (51:51.145)
That scene totally sold everything. And then at the end when she skates away, toe pick, and then giggles. I'm like, that is one of the great iconic line deliveries of the early 90s.

Jason Herbert (52:04.124)
If you say this movie to anybody, the first thing they say is Topeak. The first thing they say is Topeak. And you can say this one move, one word, and people know this film. Thank God they didn't name this film Topeak, like, Cutting Edge is a perfect name for this, right? But there's that great, mean, God, Topeak just works here. I need to ask you about Kate and Hale.

Paul (52:07.378)
Yeah.

Dart Adams (52:07.528)
Absolutely.

Paul (52:14.707)
Mm-hmm.

Dart Adams (52:14.898)
Yes.

Okay.

Paul (52:17.886)
Paul (52:29.31)
You

Jason Herbert (52:34.724)
Are they the worst couple in film history? and also, and I know we're a family podcast to Kate, to Kate and Hale have sex. This is the question I sat here trying to think. Cause you know, cause Doug's getting his dog is like, try is do is essentially like the United nations at this point in time, reaching across cold war barriers. Right. Right. Yeah. I actually looked up Namangita, this, this morning, like she's Canadian.

Dart Adams (52:34.856)
boy.

Paul (52:43.398)
No, no, not.

Dart Adams (52:43.752)
Hahahaha

Paul (52:57.863)
Literally.

Jason Herbert (53:05.559)
But are Kate and Hale getting it on and if so, do they ever turn the lights on? I'm just like, is so, there's nothing there, am I right?

Paul (53:16.392)
think so because like there's the scene where she where they're at nationals and she's crawling around looking for I forget what it is her earring right and he is just like she is like like there's a lot of scenes in this film of her posterior right a lot of close-ups and but like she's crawling around like he's just like paying no attention to her at all and I think like that that signals like a completely sexless relationship.

Dart Adams (53:21.3)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Herbert (53:24.99)
or hearing.

Dart Adams (53:26.164)
ever.

Dart Adams (53:32.818)
Yes.

Jason Herbert (53:34.046)
Thankfully.

Jason Herbert (53:44.853)
Um, there's a great line after they, after hail and again, like announces their engagement against her wishes, right? First there's a great line delivery by Doug, by DB Sweeney, who says, can you take off the rocket cuts? My cuts, hand. You know, I was like, Oh, he doesn't like this at all. You know, is he the first to figure out that he's in love with her or does she figure it out before him?

Dart Adams (53:51.801)
What?

Dart Adams (54:04.987)
Mm-hmm.

Paul (54:06.589)
Mm-hmm.

Dart Adams (54:12.476)
So I have an interesting theory on this. I think you brought up Katen. I think he knew before either of them. And I think that their relationship was one of convenience. And it was only going well because she still hadn't found a partner. Once the timeline to their relationship ending started the day Doug began being her partner.

Jason Herbert (54:14.26)
All right. I want to hear this.

Jason Herbert (54:22.131)
Yeah.

Paul (54:23.037)
Mm.

Dart Adams (54:42.126)
It all started falling apart because she started spending more time with him out of necessity to, you keep her career going. You know, so she had a shot at gold in 92 because another thing is that we kind of lose track of when did they start training for 92 because I'm estimating that it was 90.

Jason Herbert (55:04.07)
Yeah, I think this is a couple of years.

Dart Adams (55:05.779)
Yes, I think this happens over like at least 18 months. So I'm guessing it's 1990 when they finally go get him because Panchenko says something very interesting to him. No one else coming for you. I am the last, I guarantee you, I'm the last person coming for you. So you don't have another shot after this. And then it leads to the scene, you know, where he's like doubling nothing with the check. And then they come out laughing.

Jason Herbert (55:18.42)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Herbert (55:24.756)
Great line delivery.

Jason Herbert (55:29.214)
Mm.

Dart Adams (55:30.802)
and Kate's like, what in the hell? And as soon as they start working and start figuring things out, where do I place the hands? And then them being in the rink together, going back and forth with, can you move your clubs? And I start from the scene where the slap shot happens, hits him in the nose, she's feeling guilty in the hospital. And Panchenko says, you feel fear because you found a partner.

From there on, I think he knew immediately, her boyfriend knew immediately. Because I feel like they, as she started training more and more, they got more and more distant. And I think it was a last ditch effort to announce the engagement and put the ring on her finger. Because he thought, yeah, he thought that if I don't do this now, we're gonna break up before I even get here. So that confrontation you mentioned when she's on the ground looking for the earring.

Jason Herbert (56:16.894)
Keeper.

Paul (56:17.662)
Okay.

Paul (56:22.514)
Yeah.

Dart Adams (56:28.562)
He already knew it was over. He knew it was over.

Paul (56:29.788)
Yeah, because when they meet at the New Year's Eve party, and she introduces Doug to his fiance, they both come throw in like, yeah, yeah, yeah, like immediately. And so, but I think like, yeah, like either he's already suspected it or he's just like, is already threatened by Doug.

Jason Herbert (56:40.801)
that is a dick measuring contest immediately.

Dart Adams (56:44.336)
Hahaha

Dart Adams (56:56.91)
It's funny because the dad is completely oblivious.

Jason Herbert (56:59.944)
Yeah.

Paul (57:00.297)
yeah. Yeah.

Dart Adams (57:01.36)
The jazz is completely oblivious. think the coach knew and I think he knew.

Jason Herbert (57:07.924)
So who knows at first between Doug and Kate?

Dart Adams (57:11.351)
I think

Jason Herbert (57:16.34)
Because I think it's Doug. I think Doug's, I think Doug the brute is more aware.

Dart Adams (57:24.592)
Oh, I think it is Doug. I think it is Doug. And I think the scene that kind of highlights it is because I think Kate's late to accept it because when he gives her her present and he gives her a Gordie Howe jersey and she doesn't know what the hell it is. He's like, and he's like, it's Gordie Howe. He's like the greatest player ever. And you realize, wait a minute, a hockey guy gave a Gordie Howe sweater to her?

Jason Herbert (57:26.196)
Okay, bye.

Jason Herbert (57:37.618)
Mm. Yeah.

Paul (57:39.23)
Mm-hmm.

Dart Adams (57:52.58)
What the hell is going on here? And she's like, I like it. I like it. Because she realizes that, wait a minute, why did he give that to me? But I think he knew before she did. It took her a while to come to grips with it. He was fighting it.

Jason Herbert (58:02.612)
But then there's that scene of her wearing the jersey and she doesn't look better in the film when she's wrapped up in it. She's clearly feeling the feels when they're away.

Dart Adams (58:08.388)
Yes.

Paul (58:13.534)
Mm-hmm.

Paul (58:17.49)
Yeah.

Dart Adams (58:18.875)
How about the scene, one of the all time great, most portable scenes is he leaves. And he's off hoaring in New York. It's not New York. He went through Boston, you know? Yeah. Ramjet the rookie. Where did Ramjet the rookie come from? That came out of nowhere. There's Roger Ramjet, but where'd he get Ramjet the rookie?

Jason Herbert (58:27.174)
I know where you're going.

Jason Herbert (58:33.576)
He's whoring in New York. He's nothing to any collect, you know?

Paul (58:35.134)
He needs a weekend away.

Jason Herbert (58:43.507)
Yes.

Jason Herbert (58:47.998)
You know what I dig though is the, and this is a sign of like Doug's continual understanding of the sport, is he's watching that video and he figures it out. Can we talk about that? Like this is revolution that Doug is intellectually a lot smarter than he's letting on, right? Or that we're made to think of him. Cause he's always like, wait a second, this wasn't on this guy over here. This is on Kate.

Paul (58:57.234)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Dart Adams (58:57.551)
yeah.

Paul (59:03.517)
Mm-hmm.

Paul (59:11.432)
Mm-hmm.

Dart Adams (59:11.822)
Yes, Doug can read.

Jason Herbert (59:13.64)
Yeah, right. And that fight they have with his dad or with her dad towards the end, know, when they're like, he's like, was, you know, that dude was getting it done.

Paul (59:14.546)
don't need.

Dart Adams (59:23.162)
You needed a, yeah, yeah, you needed a, you needed a go-to guy. You should have asked for a go-to girl. And then she admits that she messed up. That's the thing.

Paul (59:24.478)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Herbert (59:28.968)
Hoo!

Paul (59:36.413)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Herbert (59:36.444)
she's gonna retire. How do you retire like 22? Like, I mean, I would like to.

Dart Adams (59:38.468)
Yeah.

Dart Adams (59:44.964)
The case, the empty case, there's supposed to be a golden there.

Paul (59:48.21)
Yeah.

Jason Herbert (59:48.509)
Okay. Can we talk about the final thing? mean, because like, we know they're going in. She's like, we can't, he's like, we can't do this. Benjenko, you'll die, you know, and she's like, we're doing it. What are our thoughts on this climax?

Paul (01:00:06.014)
Yeah.

Dart Adams (01:00:06.308)
So much happened leading up to it. There was, Laurie Peckarofsky, you know, there was that.

Jason Herbert (01:00:16.94)
okay. we, can she be with Doug after he sleeps with Lori Pakarovsky? like, you know, that's the thing. If you're dating, right? Or you've got this, how about you have a will-they-won't-they relationship with a friend, right? That you were clearly attracted to, but you haven't announced those feelings for one another. Is it still fair game to go date, even though you have, or to even have a one night stand with somebody?

Like what are the rules here? That's what they're playing with here. This idea is like, you're clearly in love with this woman, but neither of you will admit it. Therefore it's okay to sleep with this other person. she, and girl number one has got to accept that because she's engaged guy number two. It's so, it's so good.

Paul (01:01:03.966)
Yeah, and it's, I don't know if it's a criticism of mine in the movie, but it's just so fascinating of his character, right? That he, in that scene where she gets drunk and like you would think hockey bro, right? You know, is going to take advantage of her, but he has the moral moment where he's not gonna do that. But then he goes and sleeps with the rival, right? And I don't know how you overcome that as a couple, right? But I think it's,

Dart Adams (01:01:04.291)
Yeah.

Dart Adams (01:01:18.542)
Yes.

Paul (01:01:32.959)
But I like that in that terms of the characterization because he is a complicated figure. when I was rewatching with Michael, yeah, like I was rewatching with my wife a couple of weeks ago and I said, know, the thing, one thing that always bothers me about this one, he's from Minnesota and he has a Bobby hole blackhawks Jersey that the he cherishes. Like what? No, this is, that is not, it is not, it was nowhere to start his jacket.

Jason Herbert (01:01:40.244)
It's like he's relapsing almost.

Dart Adams (01:01:54.349)
Mm hmm. Yes.

Jason Herbert (01:01:58.889)
Well, he's also got the North Star's jacket the whole time.

Paul (01:02:03.624)
But then my wife was like, well, it's also like that weird thing in Ferris Bueller's Day Off, where they're in suburban Chicago and he's wearing the Gordie Howe Jersey. So maybe it's something about 1980s water in the Midwest. But I don't know. I don't know what the rules are.

Dart Adams (01:02:09.499)
yes.

Jason Herbert (01:02:12.306)
Jason Herbert (01:02:18.13)
You said Woodard.

Paul (01:02:21.374)
Yeah, the water came out.

Dart Adams (01:02:23.63)
No, all of us Northeast guys all have that because in Boston, if it's not Boston, Massachusetts or New England, why the hell are you, why do you have it? Like as far as we go, it's like a Providence Friars jersey or a Yukon uniform. It's like past New England? No, you can't have a New Jersey, New York, Philadelphia, anything.

Jason Herbert (01:02:34.516)
Sure.

Paul (01:02:39.496)
Yeah.

Jason Herbert (01:02:48.596)
Can I tell you a thing? I was in, I was at Yellowstone National, I was in Cody, Wyoming. I was going to Yellowstone, right? And so with a friend of mine, and this would have been like 2010, 2011. This is John Wall era Kentucky basketball, right? So I see a guy wearing a Kentucky hat and I immediately throw up the three goggles at him, right? Cause that's what Eric Bledsoe and John Wall were throwing up back then. And he's wearing a Kentucky hat and he doesn't throw it back.

Like Kentucky fans are famous. think you know this dart for like finding each other no matter where we are. But if you're wearing our gear and you're not a fan, that is stolen valor. I'm coming for your ass. it's like a motorcycle, like a motorcycle. I'm coming for that patch. Give me that K back. know? So, but here's my thoughts on Jersey. Maybe the guy, he talks about loving the smell of the ice, right? Maybe he's just a fan.

Dart Adams (01:03:19.928)
Yes.

Dart Adams (01:03:28.974)
You

Jason Herbert (01:03:44.838)
a fan of the game and understands like it's Gordie Howe, I think Gordie Howe transcends any particular team. I think that that's

Dart Adams (01:03:50.817)
Yeah, especially if it's your dad or your uncles who got you into the game and that was their.

Jason Herbert (01:03:55.186)
Yeah. Also the audience needs to know who he is, right?

Paul (01:03:56.063)
Yeah. No, think, yeah, yeah. I mean, Bobby Hall was a giant piece of shit. know, like, we shouldn't die in this hell. He was horrible. Racist, misogynist, drunk.

Dart Adams (01:03:59.894)
and

Dart Adams (01:04:05.183)
Absolutely.

Jason Herbert (01:04:12.596)
I think that they cut that from the scene. know, Tony Gora wrote this whole scene, and which Doug explains to Katie, ethics of playing hockey. Yeah, we ruined it, right?

Dart Adams (01:04:23.949)
Again, the fun of being a historian. Yes.

Jason Herbert (01:04:31.908)
I love, do you guys want to give your favorite quote? We're going to take a part. Cause Dart, you were saying this is one of the quotable films. Let's take.

Dart Adams (01:04:36.493)
There's something there. this is the most, this is one of the most portable films of the early, early nineties. Now the thing that gets me too is it's something you mentioned that also made me like fall more in love with this film. She looks at this picture, it's like, what is this? He says, it's a picture of me smelling the ice. And she's like, pardon? Says, okay. So I said to one of the guys that works in the rink that when I came on, I loved the smell of the ice. So.

Paul (01:04:53.768)
Mm-hmm.

Dart Adams (01:05:03.82)
When I came in to smell the ice, they took a picture of it and he gave it to me. Like that's a lot of world building. And makes you like really, wow, you're I'm so invested in this film for little things like that, you know, that 30, 40 seconds. That's what makes me like watches. But in terms of like quotability, Topeak, Legano ni Legano is Grey Area. it's not entirely true. He went to Boston.

Jason Herbert (01:05:11.604)
Yeah.

Paul (01:05:12.444)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Herbert (01:05:19.433)
Yeah.

Dart Adams (01:05:34.285)
Laurie Peckorofsky, Ramjet the rookie here. There's, yeah, there's so many things. I'm surprised you don't check it all and start your own think tank. Yes, Duncan Reed. Like there's so many things in this film, but it's like there are entire passages of this film, entire scenes where my brother and I would just sit there like it's house party.

Jason Herbert (01:05:40.372)
She can't even curse properly.

Dart Adams (01:06:00.973)
Like we could do it Friday. Like you could do it at Godfathers one and two. Like you could do it at Godfathers one and two. Like you could do it Ghostbusters. Like you could do it like, you know, any, if it bleeds, we can kill it. You know, Predator. It's on that same level. So for me, they're so, like when Harry met Sally, their entire scenes, people just sit there and they quote, I could do the same thing with this film.

Jason Herbert (01:06:06.312)
Keep talking, Dard, I'm signing you up for more episodes.

Paul (01:06:16.638)
Good night.

Paul (01:06:27.858)
Yeah.

Dart Adams (01:06:29.504)
You know, and it's wild like, Laurie Pekarovsky and things. Don't get too close. You might get like, you know, you might get diabetes. His arm got caught in a laterhosen. You know what that means? We have an E. You know, or the very simple thing when they finish skating and he got it and she's late.

Jason Herbert (01:06:42.42)
god, so good.

Paul (01:06:44.158)
Mm-hmm.

Dart Adams (01:06:54.346)
And so he's just calm skating around and he goes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And then they immediately cut the panache go outside in the snow. Yes, doing this. Like it's things like that. That like really sold this film. And when you put it all together, like there's so much, there's so much you can quote from this movie. Like it's hard to pick one, but there's so many. Again, if you were to play this film, start top to bottom.

Paul (01:07:03.131)
Yeah.

Dart Adams (01:07:21.739)
starting from when he wakes up in the bed with the the with the athlete from in 88 Oh and they run into each other in 88 in that year

Paul (01:07:27.698)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Jason Herbert (01:07:30.472)
Yeah. Honey, where I'm from, we stand for the national anthem. he constantly has her.

Dart Adams (01:07:35.379)
Yes, there you go.

Paul (01:07:35.87)
That's great.

Dart Adams (01:07:39.657)
Yes.

Paul (01:07:40.926)
Jason Herbert (01:07:41.022)
You know, Paul, what about you? What do you got? Cause I've got one line that I'm hoping you guys don't key in on.

Paul (01:07:43.493)
I, okay, I have a few moments that just always stand out to me, right? When they're going to skate before nationals and he's clearly nervous and he goes and he's about like his phase, he's like, I'm better now, right? Like I'm butchering the line. I love his interaction when he goes back to Minnesota and his dad or his brother is having this big bash at his sports bar.

Jason Herbert (01:07:55.101)
You

Paul (01:08:12.004)
And he's like, my brother's back from the Merchant Marines. And Doug confesses he's been training to figure skate. And they're sitting in the back. There are two lines. And the brother says, is it something I did? almost like a kind of like, because like there's not really a whole lot of discussion of queerness in this film. But that's new.

Jason Herbert (01:08:30.462)
Ha ha!

Dart Adams (01:08:35.64)
Okay.

Jason Herbert (01:08:36.51)
Right. But it's implied.

Paul (01:08:39.346)
That's one of them. It's kind of like this paranoia. And then he says, and this is my own research right now, he's like, you're going to end up being Snoopy in the ice capades in two years. But then there's a moment when they meet the rival and they're skating at nationals. And I forget the former partner. Yes. And he's like.

Dart Adams (01:08:48.147)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Herbert (01:08:58.164)
Brian?

Paul (01:09:00.484)
I understand why you've been keeping him away from me. That's like a wink. And that's like this overt acknowledgement of like male queer figure skating that you start to see. Yeah, yeah. And you start to see this in the 90s where there's this acknowledgement guys like Brian Boitano and others where, hey, yeah, we're queer. A lot of us are queer. there's another, yeah, those are my most, I find just really fascinating.

Jason Herbert (01:09:04.862)
Mm-hmm.

Dart Adams (01:09:09.643)
Don't worry, you'll get used to it.

Jason Herbert (01:09:13.597)
And.

Dart Adams (01:09:19.317)
Mm-hmm.

Paul (01:09:29.886)
But the Snoopy line always kills me. that's... You're gonna be Snoopy the Ice Capades. Which... Yeah.

Dart Adams (01:09:32.715)
You're gonna be snooping ice to pay. too weird.

Jason Herbert (01:09:36.406)
risk of inter- yeah. And Doug Space, like, it's almost like he's never encountered a gay man who was hitting on him before. Right? He's like, you know, shocking. Which tells us a lot about hockey, or at least the perceived ideas of masculinity inside of hockey, where guys are hiding it. Right? I'm certain there are gay hockey guys. Right? So here's my line. And it's the very end.

Dart Adams (01:09:45.791)
Yes.

Dart Adams (01:09:53.291)
Thanks for watching.

Dart Adams (01:09:59.945)
Yes.

Jason Herbert (01:10:05.877)
where he's like, you didn't have to do it. She's like, yes, I did. Because I love you. And he looks at her and says, just remember who said it first. And it's just him getting her one last time, you know, and then they kiss and it's just beautiful and perfect. And it's like, like, I don't, yeah, I just love it.

Dart Adams (01:10:12.331)
Instead of purse.

Paul (01:10:12.99)
Yeah.

Paul (01:10:17.106)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dart Adams (01:10:17.247)
more time.

Paul (01:10:21.596)
Yeah.

Dart Adams (01:10:22.078)
Yeah.

I wanna kick a little ass.

Jason Herbert (01:10:29.217)
yeah, God, I love this movie so much. I, we talk a lot about, this is obviously a history centered podcast. We've been talking about these lives and so forth and our lives and so forth. I want to do some projecting without, did you guys ever watch the sequels? I, for me, the sequels are kind of like this nebulous thing and I never watched them. so let's pretend for a moment that they don't exist in your mind time. Okay.

Dart Adams (01:10:53.32)
Hey, absolutely, I'm totally fine with that. Totally fine with that.

Paul (01:10:55.614)
you

Jason Herbert (01:10:56.071)
In your mind's eye, here's the real question though, because we often get some, like when we did Pretty Woman, the answers were all over the place when I asked this question. Do Doug and Kate stay together?

Dart Adams (01:11:09.492)
So I'm going to start. I taught screenwriting online for a brief space of time. And one of the things I did was I had several things that I did where it's like I gave people an assignment. One of the assignments was, and it's a long time ago to give you an idea what I mean. I said, write the first 10 pages of a sequel to Ferris Bueller's Day Off.

Jason Herbert (01:11:11.069)
Okay. Dart's got ideas.

Jason Herbert (01:11:35.925)
my God!

Paul (01:11:37.448)
Hmm.

Dart Adams (01:11:37.962)
And one of the things was I kind of led this like it's Ferris' kids, right? And I said the second thing was, and this doesn't sound hilarious, giving me a sequel to The Cutting Edge. And it's Doug and Kate's daughter and son.

Jason Herbert (01:11:43.763)
Yes.

Jason Herbert (01:11:55.989)
Yes.

Paul (01:11:57.65)
Mmm.

Dart Adams (01:11:59.279)
And so I definitely think they're together. think that and it's funny because I think every single sequel arrived at the same idea. They were training skaters, but they weren't training just figure skaters. was training hockey players and she was training skaters and they would trade off sometimes because they would see that, maybe she would be better suited for this. So I felt like at some point

a girls hockey team came out of it. And that was kind of the thing that I saw that they were just be like, look, we're not getting these girls to the Olympics, but there's an opportunity here. So maybe we can get these girls, them into shape and turn them into hockey players. And then that would be another type of movie where it's those two, then they have to find another coach to come in and help them with these girls going along, you know, bring them along. And it would have to be like, who would that be? What would that look like?

Paul (01:12:31.453)
Mm-hmm.

Dart Adams (01:12:59.217)
So that was usually that. So I absolutely think that they stay together and I think that they have kids. And I think that the kids have to live up to their parents accomplishments and one of them kind of wants to be completely defiant.

Jason Herbert (01:13:13.013)
How do you think?

Paul (01:13:15.336)
I have never thought of this before, but my mind is going spinning. part of me, I do think they stay together. I would be interested in a film where the dedication is switched, where Doug maintains his, the nuance. Yeah, whereas she, as now a gold medalist, kind of falls into...

Jason Herbert (01:13:19.413)
Good. Please let it rip, dude.

Jason Herbert (01:13:35.845)
He's diving in.

Paul (01:13:44.031)
maybe bad habits, right? Or like kind of has like a sort of downfall. He has to like bring her up and get ready for the 94 Olympics. Or I can see that kind of a Ghostbusters 2 thing where he actually does go to the ice capades and has to like bring his like credibility back.

But I would honestly, my answer really is I wouldn't mind a gritty reboot that centers on the Tonya Harding, Nancy Kerrigan issues and Doug and she are like actually involved right in like trying to save US figure skating. But I tell you did that well too well. So yeah, yeah.

Jason Herbert (01:14:15.428)
Dart Adams (01:14:27.634)
Yeah.

Jason Herbert (01:14:29.173)
Well, maybe we could just get Sebastian Stan in here somewhere, as whatever, but like, I'm a big fan of Stan anyway, going all the way back to Hot Tub Time Machine. But here's my thought. And I, you know, there's some films like, we watched Pretty Woman, there's no way they stay together. I'm sorry. It's just not happening. You can't overcome. They don't. They're done in a few months, in my mind. Right? We did Notting Hill. we talked about the IDM.

Paul (01:14:32.892)
Yeah.

Dart Adams (01:14:33.256)
That's hilarious.

Paul (01:14:39.891)
Mm-hmm.

Dart Adams (01:14:48.892)
Yeah, I totally agree. I totally agree with that.

Jason Herbert (01:14:58.473)
when we did the Notting Hill podcast of like, where do you want the sequel to take place? And it's like, I don't want to see a sequel where they have to, where we find out they didn't make it. Right. Cause that just breaks my heart. And I want to believe in Doug and Kate. Right. And I think that they actually do. I think that this works so well. They've got some class stuff to come up. Cause I think he's going to elevate. He's going to come up to her level as far as class and stature and stuff like that. I think she goes into announcing he starts coaching hockey at Yukon or something like that. Maybe he, maybe he coaches the women's.

Paul (01:15:22.835)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Herbert (01:15:27.071)
hockey team or some jazz, like he stayed or maybe he stays as where I don't quite know, but they definitely have kids who go into the combined world, right? I would want to see like a sequel, but only with these two, because it's like, I can't like, I appreciate the, obviously affection for the stories and stuff like that. There's all this direct video stuff on these. I think there's three of them.

Dart Adams (01:15:43.739)
Okay.

Jason Herbert (01:15:53.495)
But I, it's also the thing of like, whereas I don't want to see Doug and Kate not on screen together, or I don't want to see Doug and Kate like broken up. I also don't want to not see, don't, I don't want to see James Garner's version of Tommy Lee Jones' version of, you know, uh, which one was he? he, he Gus McCray? Like, like in Lonesome Duff, you know, and I loved, I love James Garner, but like, I want to see the original actor, right? In the role, uh, and stuff.

Paul (01:16:18.77)
Yeah, yeah.

Jason Herbert (01:16:22.934)
You know, that's long story there together. I will not hear of any world across the multiverse of cutting edge there together. Regardless. think she goes into television. I think she becomes an announcer and is like, and we see her on television every four years is what I think happens. where does this film sit on the, we look at the 1990s and this is where I'm going to kind of bring this down. Look at the 1990s was a golden age.

Paul (01:16:39.518)
Mm-hmm.

Dart Adams (01:16:48.584)
Okay.

Jason Herbert (01:16:53.21)
of sports film. Dart, you brought up earlier another incredibly quotable film, White Man Can't Jump, right, which is same year in 92. But let's talk about another film that's incredibly quotable, The Sandlot comes out in 93. Okay. I'm not a fan of Rudy, but that comes out in 93 as well. League of the Roads in 92.

Dart Adams (01:16:53.831)
Yes.

Dart Adams (01:17:01.242)
Thank you.

Dart Adams (01:17:15.608)
What historian what historian doesn't have issues with Rudy?

Paul (01:17:19.71)
Thank

Jason Herbert (01:17:19.936)
Well, you know, I'm from Kentucky. I don't want to acknowledge anything in Indiana period. Mighty ducks. Minnesota is having a, is having some time in 92. You know, 10 cup, 10 cup, criminally underrated. 96.

Dart Adams (01:17:32.934)
I gotta tell you, I gotta tell you, I don't love the Mighty Ducks, but you know what I do love? Little Giants.

Jason Herbert (01:17:38.954)
What's that? Okay, that's coming. That case is a little giants 1994. What else we got? Here's one for you. He got game.

Dart Adams (01:17:50.37)
He Got Game is a great film despite the fact Ray Allen is god awful at it.

Paul (01:17:50.931)
Hmm.

Jason Herbert (01:17:52.246)
1998.

Jason Herbert (01:17:56.727)
He's bad, you know who's Rosario Dawson's in that film. Oh man, she blows the doors off that thing, right? Varsity Blues, 99. What else we got? Indie Given Sunday is 99. I mean, it's a...

Dart Adams (01:18:00.997)
Yeah, so.

Paul (01:18:03.646)
Mm-hmm.

Dart Adams (01:18:04.358)
So.

Dart Adams (01:18:11.879)
Any Given Sunday is extremely underrated because it does so many things in terms of this like grit and getting to the soul of the issues with the league in terms of who's a star player, what does it mean to be a veteran? You're at end of your career, you're injured, you just want to this bonus money and clock out versus this is what I stand for.

Paul (01:18:27.646)
Mm-hmm.

Dart Adams (01:18:41.766)
I'm a leader, I'm respected in the locker room, and I'm just trying to get there. And I realized that, you know, I'm putting my body on the line. I'm trying to get these sponsorships. I was nobody six months ago, and now I'm on the cover of the magazine and I'm the guy, you know, selling the tickets, you know? So I'm gonna get what I can get, because you don't care about me. You didn't care about me when I was sitting on the bench. There's so much going on at any given Sunday. And the inches speech.

Paul (01:18:45.907)
Mm-hmm.

Dart Adams (01:19:12.89)
The entry speech. my God, this is one of the best things ever in a sports film.

Jason Herbert (01:19:18.774)
Can I give you two films that predicted the future, two sports films that predicted the future in the 1990s? Days of Thunder. Called the whole team. Remember in 1990, there wasn't like teams in NASCAR, right? They called that. Even more. You ready? 1994, Blue Chips. Blue Chips calls. And that's a film I'm trying to get Rex Chapman on. I'm trying to play my Kentucky thing with Rex Chapman.

Dart Adams (01:19:25.818)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Paul (01:19:32.424)
Yeah.

Dart Adams (01:19:32.496)
Mm-mm.

Dart Adams (01:19:36.539)
Mm.

Dart Adams (01:19:40.742)
absolutely. absolutely.

Dart Adams (01:19:46.455)
Thank

Jason Herbert (01:19:47.799)
Cause if you read Rex's memoir, like it's a fascinating study in like race, relationships, getting paid. mean, obviously Rex had some real challenges and I think it's a real brave book that he wrote and stuff, but I'm trying to get him on there cause I want to have him talk about blue chips. Cause I think blue chips man was like, and I hate how much ass kissing they do to Indiana University and Bobby Knight. I can't stand Bobby Knight.

Dart Adams (01:19:56.542)
yeah.

Paul (01:19:57.086)
Mm-hmm.

Dart Adams (01:20:02.512)
Yeah.

Dart Adams (01:20:12.921)
Yeah. Yeah. I gotta tell you, Calbert Cheney, that whole squad being in that movie, my eyes just rolled to the back of my head watching it. Yes, my god.

Paul (01:20:15.048)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Herbert (01:20:25.686)
potatoes in that film. We see them early on. All right, so here's my last question though. Where does this film, think about all these movies that come out.

Where does the cutting edge sit in the pantheon of 90s sports films?

Dart Adams (01:20:41.573)
I think it's in the upper 20 % guaranteed because if you think about ESPN2, which revolutionized the way sports were marketed and sold, you can't tell me that there wasn't anyone who started working with ESPN from ESPN2 on who weren't involved in the marketing, the way things were sold, what they picked to play at night was not inspired by.

Jason Herbert (01:20:51.326)
Absolutely.

Dart Adams (01:21:10.309)
the cutting edge or especially like the cinematography because the way they cut the skating sequences and the montages, can't tell, like every sports film afterwards took cues from it. You watch sports films before it and you watch sports films after it. It's very clear, oh, these people love the cutting edge.

Paul (01:21:25.853)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Herbert (01:21:33.396)
Is the cutting edge the saving private Ryan of sports movies, Dart?

Dart Adams (01:21:37.347)
I don't think it's the saving private Ryan of sports movies. think it might be, what's a better one? What's a movie that every screenwriter from a certain era, generation watched? Like think about Doug Liman's Go, right? You know, if you were of a certain generation that came up with independent film of that era, you saw Go, you saw Swingers. It's like.

Jason Herbert (01:21:53.782)
I love that movie.

Paul (01:21:54.578)
Right.

Dart Adams (01:22:04.258)
that you know or maybe for a generation previous to that slacker or or the black and white one dana dana seltzer shark no no no no no no no no that was black and white the one way they work in the movie theater the video folks folks like it's it's that kind of we know you saw it it's very clear from your work you saw this

Jason Herbert (01:22:15.415)
American History X.

Jason Herbert (01:22:24.425)
clerks. Clerks.

Paul (01:22:25.256)
Yeah.

Jason Herbert (01:22:31.541)
Yeah.

Paul (01:22:33.885)
Mm-hmm.

Dart Adams (01:22:34.136)
You can't deny you saw it. Everybody can quote this movie. Everybody cites this movie. We all saw it. So I think it's that. More so than the film you mentioned. Yeah, definitely.

Jason Herbert (01:22:49.559)
Oh, what about you? How do you feel?

Paul (01:22:52.124)
Yeah, like of those sports films, I think it's definitely up there. Yeah, top 15, top 20%. I do think they're better. I need to re-watch a few of those.

Jason Herbert (01:23:07.199)
I I threw some stuff at you. We didn't even talk about Major League.

Dart Adams (01:23:08.804)
Because there's some movies that a lot of people saw that were terrible. The Air Up There was not a good basketball film. It's not a great sports film. But a lot of people saw that. And like they could quote it, but it's not a rewatchable film like some of other ones are. And I mean, as much as I love The Bump the Rim, there are sequences in there where the same guy throws a pass to himself and dunks it. Like, you know?

Paul (01:23:14.546)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jason Herbert (01:23:18.155)
No.

Paul (01:23:25.63)
Hmm.

Paul (01:23:36.082)
Yeah. Yeah.

Dart Adams (01:23:38.049)
It falls a full court past to himself and catches it.

Paul (01:23:40.476)
Yeah, I like the idea of like, what's rewatchable? Because I would say like things like League of their own, I will always watch if it's on cable or whatever, like that is immensely rewatchable for me. This is rewatchable. Like, what's the...

Dart Adams (01:23:46.629)
absolutely.

Dart Adams (01:23:53.186)
Yes.

Jason Herbert (01:23:55.959)
You're gonna get me sued by Bill Simmons now.

Dart Adams (01:23:58.627)
you

Paul (01:23:58.943)
What's the one with the kid manages the twins? Is that little big league or is that because they're a little big league like that one like it's not a great movie but like the baseball sequences are fantastic because they have

Jason Herbert (01:24:04.951)
I think that's a little big league. Yeah.

Dart Adams (01:24:12.896)
I will tell you that is what's another one? Pitchers got up big but rookie of the year? Rookie of the year is another one.

Paul (01:24:19.1)
Work in the air. Yeah. Bye.

Jason Herbert (01:24:22.143)
Yeah. Well, these kind of occupy a space of like kind of like light hearted kind of thing versus like, know, we're talking about a little bit.

Paul (01:24:27.4)
Mm-hmm.

Dart Adams (01:24:27.543)
Yes.

Dart Adams (01:24:33.005)
Well, again, being a historian kind of ruins some sports films because one sports film that if I wasn't a historian, I could just turn my brain off. I could enjoy it is Moneyball. But being a historian, it ruins Moneyball for you because you're like, wait a minute, they had the best pitching, some the best pitching in the game. That's not what he did. He didn't do that. That manager wasn't that terrible.

Paul (01:24:47.943)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Herbert (01:24:56.567)
No, what Moneyball does is give you Brad Pitt's best actor, best acting performance ever. You know, it doesn't require Brad Pitt to talk a lot. And that's Brad Pitt's best stuff. And this isn't a disservice Brad Pitt. actually think he's one of the most important filmmakers. Look at what he's done with like Plan B productions. He picks winners, man. And stuff, but like he gets to do with this a lot. You know? Yeah, it's like...

Paul (01:25:02.065)
Mm-hmm.

Paul (01:25:14.002)
Mm-hmm.

Dart Adams (01:25:16.832)
Yeah.

Dart Adams (01:25:21.212)
He gets on base.

Paul (01:25:23.324)
Mm-hmm.

Dart Adams (01:25:28.898)
Yeah

Paul (01:25:30.118)
The trade call that he does with Jonah Hill, right, I think is fantastic acting on both their parts. But you're right, Dar, like when you look at the history of it, you're like, wow, it falls apart, you know?

Jason Herbert (01:25:43.569)
No, but there's rich teams, there's poor teams, then there's 50 feet of crap, and then there's us.

Dart Adams (01:25:50.582)
there is just the Red Sox took our heart. Yeah, like, you know.

Paul (01:25:50.589)
What was that?

Jason Herbert (01:25:55.192)
People are like, are you about to cover every single sports film in history? I'm like, yeah, actually we haven't told Don. That said, guys, there are so many other movies I want to have you guys both back on to talk about. I was really looking forward to talking to you both about this film. I had a blast talking to you guys about this tonight. Like, I could just always watch this movie.

Dart Adams (01:26:16.322)
Think about the stuff we didn't talk about, like how the skaters that they're afraid of ended up coming in like ninth in the Olympics, because they were Canadian. The skaters everybody's afraid of.

Jason Herbert (01:26:19.329)
Go for it.

Jason Herbert (01:26:23.605)
Yeah. Yeah.

Paul (01:26:25.832)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Herbert (01:26:31.519)
It's a thing.

Paul (01:26:31.548)
The, we didn't talk about, yeah, like, is that the one where they're doing the, the later hosin like routine and she falls on her butt? And that's how that was qualified. Yeah, that was nationalist.

Dart Adams (01:26:39.754)
no, that was that was your qualifier for the Olympics. Yeah, that was the national.

Jason Herbert (01:26:41.271)
That was at Nationals. And we're supposed to get upset because we know that Kate and Doug are rocking out and they're like, oh, the judges just didn't see it. Looks like it's going to be, and we're like, oh no. And then she thankfully falls. You know what that means, right? we are in. So that's, you know, that's what we like. It's everything's just, it's not a question of if they're going to like win. It's how soon, like when are we, are the stars going to align with them winning and falling in love?

Dart Adams (01:26:47.681)
Yeah.

Paul (01:26:50.28)
Yeah.

Dart Adams (01:26:56.459)
Yes.

Yes.

Dart Adams (01:27:05.387)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Herbert (01:27:12.064)
Right.

Dart Adams (01:27:12.203)
Them landing the Pam Chinco twist after those sequences where he's spinning her around and he's hitting her head on the ice. And she skids on the ice and she slides and she can't get back up and you see that pained expression on her face. Also, I wanted a great sequence that people don't talk about nearly enough.

Jason Herbert (01:27:18.931)
and those are painful to watch.

Paul (01:27:20.743)
Yeah.

Jason Herbert (01:27:22.999)
And she's like, oh.

Jason Herbert (01:27:34.423)
This movie is perfect. I'm sorry. It's a perfect film. It's like this movie does everything it sets out to do. Like I think there's a whole series. Like I think Predator is a perfect film. It is the perfect action sci-fi movie ever.

Dart Adams (01:27:45.857)
So, if you want to talk about a perfect film, right? No wasted motion, nothing. It was originally called 72 Hours, but we call it Taken.

Jason Herbert (01:27:48.919)
Go on.

What do got?

Paul (01:27:58.014)
Yeah.

Dart Adams (01:27:59.461)
Minimal, minimal distractions. We get straight to the point. There's the scene where he goes to his daughter's, his daughter's birthday party. He brings the karaoke machine. He doesn't say three words to the man who's married to his ex-wife, but we already know I should hate him. Yes.

Paul (01:28:01.951)
Yeah.

Jason Herbert (01:28:15.649)
The world building is so good. And take it. And like after she gets taken and he calls like Leland Orser, right? And he's like, these guys are from the Baltic and this is why we can tell. And we know exactly what town like, you know, they he's been running with heavy, but you're like, I love it. When filmmakers don't hit us over the head with stuff where Liam Neeson doesn't go, Hey, remember that time when we were in the Baltic and he's like, it's just, I got another perfect film for you. Ready?

Paul (01:28:17.478)
Mm-hmm.

Dart Adams (01:28:27.509)
Yes.

Dart Adams (01:28:40.853)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Herbert (01:28:44.8)
Man on fire.

Dart Adams (01:28:48.398)
The Denzel Washington version. Okay, yeah. Okay, interesting. Yeah, all right. Because, yes.

Jason Herbert (01:28:49.793)
The Denzel version. I have not seen the Scott Glenn version, although I would like to. But Creasy Bear? Come on. I mean, Denzel does a really good alcoholic. You know?

Paul (01:28:51.038)
Okay.

Dart Adams (01:29:01.151)
Yeah, I will say what's hilarious is that film, him working with her, they became lifelong friends. She became friends with his daughter and like their families have been friends since they did that movie together.

Jason Herbert (01:29:13.719)
Hasn't she, isn't she one of the equalizer films now? Like, it's like, like she's a full on adult now. yeah, that's Elle Fanning, I think, right? Is the one, yeah. So it's like, I love seeing that, right? Cause I had, I had Ed's wick on the pot, right? And he was like talking about his relationship and he writes about this in the book that he wrote, right? His relationship with Dentel.

Dart Adams (01:29:17.908)
I see us

Dart Adams (01:29:22.123)
her and her sister yet.

Jason Herbert (01:29:42.549)
And you get the sense that it's not easy to earn that man's trust. So many people want a piece of Denzel Washington's life. Denzel, So yeah, Paul, you have a sneaky, a sneaky, perfect film.

Dart Adams (01:29:47.221)
Uh-uh.

yeah, his name is Denzel.

Paul (01:29:52.702)
Mm-hmm.

Paul (01:30:01.939)
Man, that's hard. I don't know, sometimes my cousin Vinny is up there for me. It's near perfect. There are a couple scenes I would cut that haven't aged well, but I love the pacing, I love the world building, I love the acting. There was another one that I was like, oh, and I can't remember what it was, but.

Jason Herbert (01:30:08.126)
Dart Adams (01:30:23.008)
.

Jason Herbert (01:30:24.215)
Do you know what film I'm dying to do on this? And I wrote it as we're talking and I don't know if you can see this or not. Right here. Teen Wolf. I wanna do Teen Wolf. I love Teen Wolf. Susan Arsetti, Booth, full on, I'm in love. I'm eight years old. Go on.

Paul (01:30:34.44)
Team off.

Dart Adams (01:30:35.934)
Okay.

Really?

Really quickly, I had a campaign. I'm going to say this because it's never going to happen. And I was put out in the universe. I was trying to sell Adidas. I'm doing a campaign for Teen Wolf's 40th anniversary with Anthony Edwards. I wanted to be T-Wolf versus Teen Wolf. And Adidas outfitted Teen Wolf in 85. And what they've never done, which I've been trying to get them to do since 2015, is retro the Knights.

Jason Herbert (01:31:11.415)
Give me that jersey.

Dart Adams (01:31:11.72)
and the Beavers uniforms, the jerseys, make like high school championship jerseys, all that stuff, the Letterman's jackets for a capsule. And I wanna do a full campaign with Anthony versus Teen Wolf, but I wanted to make it him now. Like a kid from, know, Beaver Town High turns into a wolf now. And like everybody's talking about him, he's ranked number one and like.

Paul (01:31:12.744)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Herbert (01:31:14.551)
Keep me the jersey.

Dart Adams (01:31:40.114)
Anthony Edwards like pssst, the bus is ass. You know, he's talking trash to them in the media. He's like, I'll take them one on one. So it's like this whole campaign happening all year long. Teen Wolf versus Teen Wolf. You know, he has a 56 inch vertical. Anthony Edwards, I don't need a 56 inch vertical. I wasn't 5'3 to start with. You know, so like that. So I really would love Teen Wolf. Yes, I liken. When in the end, the when in the end,

Jason Herbert (01:31:42.199)
Hahaha

Jason Herbert (01:31:57.717)
hear Anthony Edwards say, Lichenthrope.

Jason Herbert (01:32:04.183)
Oh my God. Okay. This is what I would get to. If you take Rambeau or you take Rocky and you set Rocky aside as its own thing, I think when in the end, this is my hot take, is the single best non-Rocky sports montage ever made. The song is perfect. They resuit, if you watch it, they have some of the same shots played over in the same, I don't care. I don't care.

Dart Adams (01:32:13.759)
You

Dart Adams (01:32:29.407)
Yeah, yes. Shots missed in ways that don't make sense. The same shot going in ways that don't make sense. The rebounds like this. Yes. The hook.

Jason Herbert (01:32:39.324)
shoot it, fat boy. my God. Everything. Paul, do know this film? Are you in love with Teen Wolf like we are?

Paul (01:32:45.79)
I have not seen Teen Wolf in like forever, but I recently watched a video called 60 Second Breakdown. It's kind of a tongue in cheek. Like when he appears, like drops 34 points in the basketball game. They're talking about like the poor defense and like, yeah, it's great. But I am overdue for a rewatch for sure. I would say my other, yeah.

Jason Herbert (01:32:53.845)
Okay.

Dart Adams (01:32:54.194)
wow.

Dart Adams (01:33:02.259)
Yes.

Jason Herbert (01:33:06.472)
I'm just...

Dart Adams (01:33:08.391)
I think J-Fox's layups, they hit the back iron and then go in.

Jason Herbert (01:33:11.799)
They're so bad. Least athletic guy, but some of the great lines like how can you keep going? He's like, how much of this can you keep doing? He's like as much as you could dish out Nick. He's like, you know.

Paul (01:33:12.871)
Yeah. Yeah.

Dart Adams (01:33:22.143)
Yes. I'm going to shoot more free throws jumping.

Jason Herbert (01:33:26.967)
Are you allowed to shoot a jump free throw? It doesn't matter. I'm sorry. Listen, I'm eight years old. I'm thinking that all high school parties end up like in a closet with boof. You know, and I'm like, or the jello, right? With chubby. Like, God damn it, boys. I miss the eighties. I feel like I 10 years too young for my life. should like...

Dart Adams (01:33:41.65)
Ha ha ha!

Jason Herbert (01:33:54.828)
We can talk about what I want when I talk about the films, singles, right? Like I feel like I should have been Steve who is exactly, born 10 years before I was like, just, I I've missed I'm the tail end of accident. It pisses me off. So there's

Paul (01:34:00.094)
Mm-hmm.

Paul (01:34:12.753)
Yeah.

Dart Adams (01:34:13.502)
I the hilarious thing, the hilarious thing for me being a Gen Xer born in 75 is I would watch these Hughes films, you know, and these other films and black kids would watch them like they were national geographic films because like, is this how white folks live? Yeah, is this how white folks live?

Jason Herbert (01:34:21.719)
yeah.

Jason Herbert (01:34:27.543)
Look at the white people, right? Why are they so fucked up?

Dart Adams (01:34:32.862)
Like, oh my God, the jocks and the athletes and the cheerleaders is like, because in a black high school, you could be a basketball player, you could be a cheerleader, and you could still be way cooler than all of them just being a regular dude, you know? So it was really weird that, you know, there's like, with the jocks on his side and the nerds on his side. And it was like, the nerd might be the dude to get you in the club, because he might be the DJ. Like, who cares? So was really weird to watch it from that lens.

Paul (01:34:51.197)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Herbert (01:34:56.129)
Like where, where are the black people in St. Elmo's fire? It's set in DC, right?

Dart Adams (01:35:03.108)
don't get me started on that one. We've had that conversation. That's a hilarious conversation. Like, are they the only white folks that found each other in DC in that one place? Chocolate City.

Jason Herbert (01:35:12.727)
Oh yeah. Yeah. You know, that, that, you know, guys, we could be here all night. Like I am so odd. Like, like just, I'm like scribbling down. like a dart likes this. likes this. Dart will say, okay to this if I email him so forth. Um, it's a danger. All right. I'm going to call this one tonight. This has been amazing. I'm so fired up. Like I, I'm, I shit you not like the second I hit record, we're going to start playing on the next one. Cause I want you both back on the pod.

Paul (01:35:13.51)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Dart Adams (01:35:20.733)
Thank

Dart Adams (01:35:25.413)
Hehehehe.

Paul (01:35:25.96)
Yes,

Jason Herbert (01:35:41.911)
This was so much fun guys. Thank you so much for being here.

Dart Adams (01:35:46.141)
Thanks for having me.

Paul (01:35:46.376)
Thank you for having me. Yeah, having us, yeah.

Jason Herbert (01:35:49.078)
Yeah.