0:00:09 - (B): It's a great day to get better.

0:00:10 - (Toby Brooks): Welcome to the first ever episode of Becoming Undone, the podcast for those who dare bravely try mightily and grow relentlessly. I'm Toby Brooks. I'll be your host and your tour guide as we invite new guests each week to examine how high achievers can transform from falling apart to falling into place. Episode one is finally here. This is the culmination of about three months of solid work, and prior to that, about three years of ideas and considering different strategies to pull together this idea that success usually is only half the story.

0:00:48 - (Toby Brooks): When we see athletes or artists or entrepreneurs and we hear their story of success, oftentimes we just look at the victories. But all too often the victory only came about because of the setback. This effort, this Becoming undone idea is really the collision of really three different ideas that all came into my life about the same time. The first is something I've dealt with for a long time now. I'm an athletic trainer by trade, and I've worked with both athletes, the physically active, for the better part of two decades now.

0:01:30 - (Toby Brooks): And one of the things that has really bothered me throughout the duration of my career is that transition that athletes make and oftentimes make alone. From being a competitive athlete to not being a competitive athlete, to basically just being shown the door, your career's over. This thing that was central to your identity for so long is now suddenly finished, and what do you do with that? And I've seen a lot of athletes really come apart.

0:02:01 - (Toby Brooks): That loss of something so central to them sent them into a tailspin. But then for others, they just make that transition and use those same strategies that help them be successful as athletes and parlay that over into success in the business world or into coaching or into countless other things. And I couldn't help but just be confused by what makes the difference. What is the difference between an athlete who falls apart and another one who sees that their work isn't yet complete?

0:02:39 - (Toby Brooks): So that's the athletic side. A similar thing happens for artists and even for entrepreneurs. We know that 9 out of 10 startups fail within the first year. We know that another eight or nine out of ten of them fail within the year after that. So to be an entrepreneur really means to wrestle with failure and to use the lessons that you learned in one thing that wasn't successful and apply them in a way that is.

0:03:06 - (Toby Brooks): And so I started to recognize that this wasn't just an athlete's problem, this wasn't just an entrepreneur's problem. This was an Achiever's problem. And only by recognizing that failure isn't final. Understanding that even though I may come apart at the seams in one day, in one week, in one season of my life, it doesn't mean I come apart for the rest of my life. I still have something left to accomplish. And so this really came to a head for me when I spent a week out at the Hazeldon Betty Ford center in Rancho Mirage, California, as part of their Summer Internship for Medical Students program. Now, I'm not a medical student, but I do work as a faculty member in a health sciences center. And Hazelden Betty Ford has had this program for several years where they bring physicians in training and now, more recently, faculty out to the center and immerse them in a full week of what a patient experiences as part of the Hazelden Betty Ford Treatment Center. I didn't know what to expect.

0:04:15 - (Toby Brooks): I was warned, told more than once that it would change my life. And I was a little skeptical. I didn't really have time to do it, but I had been invited and I decided to give it a shot. And so after about the second day, I really started to realize how transformational this process would be. So in this model, what they do is you split your time. About 50% of your time on campus is spent learning about addiction disorders and kind of getting the text answers and seeing examples of how Hazelden Betty Ford does addiction recovery care.

0:04:53 - (Toby Brooks): And the other half of the time, you are actually assigned to one of the treatment groups, the residence hall groups. And so the group I was with was a very diverse bunch. I believe there were seven or eight. There's always people coming and going depending on their care. But these were anywhere from 20 year olds to there was a guy in his 60s. And all of them had very different life stories, but consistently they had all struggled with addiction. And it was interesting for me to see most of the patients there spend anywhere from a week to as much as a full month.

0:05:33 - (Toby Brooks): It's not compulsory, but if the patient is willing to undergo care, they will be there for upwards of 30 days and then maybe transition into an aftercare program. But it was remarkable to me to see each participant was assigned a buddy. And my buddy had been there just about the longest out of the entire group. So he had kind of been through the process. He had sorted through some resentments for having to be stuck in rehab for a month. He had done some of the heavy work in therapy, both group and personal individual therapy. And he was kind of an elder of the group. And I was so amazed. I mean, his story was remarkable.

0:06:16 - (Toby Brooks): The life experiences that he had and the things that had led him to the point where he realized he had to make a change. So you have this person who's on the tail end of their immediate recovery. You know, that visit at Hazeldomet. And then during that week, we had two or three other guys who were brought into the program, and they were on the opposite end of the spectrum. Angry, resentful, hurt, physically dealing with the withdrawal of addiction, depending on what it was they were addicted to. And as I was talking to my buddy, he really gave me some insight. And he said, you know, I spent so many years of my life medicating and seeking out ways to treat my pain without really doing the hard work that it took to.

0:07:03 - (Toby Brooks): To get better. And when I heard that word, better, I really stopped in my tracks because I've been kind of all about this better for a long time. And it made me realize that as somewhat of a perfectionist, I have struggled with the idea of failure. I have avoided it at all costs. And we'll get into that later. Today's show is less about me and more about my first guest, Joseph Skorjeski. But I emerged from that experience excited and convicted at the same time. That failure had been something I had run from for so long when I didn't let it do the work that it was really there to do in my life.

0:07:43 - (Toby Brooks): And so over the next months, I really wrestled with what I was going to do about this. And that's where the idea for becoming undone came from. The thought that I know countless former athletes, current athletes, coaches, lots of folks from the athletic space who have dealt with failure as a springboard to success, who have navigated the end of an athletic career and the beginning of everything that comes after that. And increasingly, I'm also learning about folks in the entertainment space, artists who are very, very similar in a lot of ways to athletes, where you pursue after this thing you're so passionate about for so long, and eventually, sometimes it happens and sometimes it doesn't. So my first guest is the national director of Business Development at the Hazelden Betty Ford center in Rancho Mirage.

0:08:36 - (Toby Brooks): And Joseph is an absolute delight of a human being. His pedigree is unparalleled. The guy knows everybody. He has served in presidential administrations as an expert in addiction recovery and care. And he has a story of his own about overcoming addiction. And I realized that there was no better person to start off the show than someone who had used their own, if you want to call them Failures as a springboard to being world renowned in his area. He's a counselor, he's an administrator, he's an executive who has really built his entire life around helping people who have succumbed to addiction disorder. So without further ado, I am thrilled to introduce my first guest for the show, Joseph Skorjeski.

0:09:30 - (Joseph Skrajewski): You know, becoming undone. What a cool topic and what a cool background. And, you know, to start at the beginning, you know, I was born in Trenton, New Jersey. Born to young parents and two individuals that were just trying to figure their way through life. And, you know, I'm so grateful for the opportunities that they provided to me because they were just trying to figure life out. And so, you know, some people would say that I grew up poor. I mean, I don't think kids know that they're poor growing up. I think kids are putting one foot in front of the other and trying to make friends.

0:10:03 - (Joseph Skrajewski): I grew up in a row home. I remember, you know, being provided for. I remember doing things when I was younger, like enjoying when it rained because there'd be worms in the gutters to play with. I remember playing stickball with rocks and stuff. Sticks. I remember, you know, going pool hopping, where we'd hop in one pool to the next. Later in life, somebody said that was called trespassing. But we were just having fun as kids, and.

0:10:25 - (Joseph Skrajewski): And I really enjoyed that. And, you know, my Jersey dream, interestingly enough, was. Was to get out of New Jersey. I remember thinking, how can I be successful in this world? How can I be successful in life? My mother worked for the state. My father was a truck driver when I was born, but he eventually became a police officer. And, you know, nowadays I work as, you know, executive director and a national director here at Haz Benny Ford.

0:10:48 - (Toby Brooks): But.

0:10:48 - (Joseph Skrajewski): But that was never my plan. Like, that was never my vision. I remember thinking, like, how can I be successful in this world? And I remember thinking, like, you know, I was close enough to. To big cities like Philadelphia and New York. So really, my. My dream was to, you know, become a stockbroker, to, like, work in New York City.

0:11:09 - (B): Did you catch that?

0:11:10 - (Toby Brooks): Joseph's Jersey dream was to get out of Jersey. In his mind, that meant the financial markets, Wall street, becoming a stockbroker with the money, the power, the prestige that comes along with. But life, as it so often does, had other plans.

0:11:25 - (Joseph Skrajewski): So, you know, I was blessed. I don't usually share this, but I actually had a craniotomy when I was an infant. I had fluid in my brain. And so all these pictures I have of me as an infant. I have these, you know, big bandages on and these head wraps. And I mean, it may sound silly, but I remember my mother telling me as a little boy that they, you know, put extra brains in my brain.

0:11:46 - (Toby Brooks): Mom's explo explanation seems completely reasonable to me. If anyone has extra brains, it's Joseph. The guy is smart, he's bright, he's articulate, and never in a thousand years did it cross my mind that maybe he had a story of overcoming addiction of his very own.

0:12:03 - (Joseph Skrajewski): So I did well in school and got into the university that I wanted to get into. And, you know, it's interesting, you know, people think since I work at a substance use disorder system like Hazelden Betty Florida, the largest nonprofit substance use system in the world, that that was always what I planned on doing. And again, it simply wasn't. You know, I thought again that I was going to be successful in New York City. So I went to the university I wanted to go to. And really, like, December of 2000 is where my story really starts, because December of 2000, I went to all the big firms to interview the Goldman Sachs, the Morgan Stanley, the Merrill lynch, the Smith Varney.

0:12:41 - (Joseph Skrajewski): And it's interesting because it was one of those interviews where you go and do your absolute best, like you put your heart out there. And I felt really good about those interviews. And I got the first call back from Goldman Sachs, and they said, Mr. Skrodenski, thanks for coming in. We like your background, we like your energy, we like your passion. Unfortunately, right now, with the uncertainty in the markets, we simply can't extend an offer to you. Best of luck to you in the future. And next call came in from Merrill lynch, and it was much of the same.

0:13:10 - (Joseph Skrajewski): They liked me, but they weren't ready to extend an offer. And then I'll never forget the next call that came in, because it's really the call that should have changed my life. And so the call came in from Morgan Stanley, and they said, you know, Mr. Husky, thanks for coming in. We like your background. We like your energy, we like your passion. We'd like to give you an opportunity. We'd like you to finish out your last semester of undergrad. We'd like you to work in the World Trade center for Morgan Stanley.

0:13:39 - (Joseph Skrajewski): Welcome to the firm. And like I say that now to you, Toby, but literally, the hairs on my arms still stand up when I share that story, because it was my dream come true. It was really what I've been working towards my entire life. And so I finished out my last semester of undergrad, I remember thinking that that was party time. You know, as long as I still got good grades, I was going to work in the World Trade center for Morgan Stanley.

0:14:03 - (Joseph Skrajewski): And so June of 2001 I walked in and it was like magic. There was this excitement and this passion and this energy and it was myself and about a dozen other shot 21 year olds right out of undergraduate. And we were hungry and they brought in this guy at the time that was selling us on the dream and he said, you're going to be millionaires and you're going to make all this money. We were just like so excited at the time. We were just drinking that up. And finally after that he said, you have one thing to do first here at the company and that was to pass our Series 7 licensing exam. And I wasn't super worried about that. I was good at studying things and memorizing stuff and taking exams.

0:14:41 - (Joseph Skrajewski): So after he said that, he stood back like this and he pointed on over at this big wall calendar and he said, I'd like each of you to walk over to that wall calendar, flip out three months and circle the date you're going to take your Series 7 licensing exam. And I still remember this clear as day like it was yesterday. This is like 21 years ago. But I remember walking over to that wall calendar, flipping out three months encircling the date 9-11-2001, the morning of 9 11. Rather than going to my office like I did every single day, I went to one of those Sylvan testing learning centers with the cameras on me and the partitions and I sat down for my licensing exam.

0:15:25 - (Joseph Skrajewski): It's a six hour test. There's a three hour first part, there's an hour mandatory break. In the middle, there's a three hour second part. After the first two hours and 50 minutes, I was ready for my break and I walked into the waiting room and I saw these two women and they were filled with emotion. And they said, sir, are you okay? And I looked back at them and I said, well, kind of stressed out right now. I just took the first half of this test, I still have the second half to go. And they said, no sir, no, don't you work for Morgan Stanley?

0:15:59 - (Joseph Skrajewski): I said, yes. They said, well, you work in the World Trade Center? And I said, yes. They said, well sir, the towers have been hit by planes.

0:16:16 - (Toby Brooks): If you're like me, you got goosebumps. Here's Joseph, a young, newly minted college graduate with nothing but the future ahead of him. Lands a great job in the World Trade Center. But three months prior, he schedules out an exam that pulls him out of the office on the very day that the plane struck.

0:16:37 - (Joseph Skrajewski): Wow. Now, one thing I do know is everyone everywhere felt something when they got that piece of news. It wasn't like you could call your family and friends. Phones weren't working at that time. It wasn't like you were gonna charge downtown and make sure that everything was okay. There was no getting back in. I knew what it felt like to truly powerless over a situation. We didn't know what was going to happen next.

0:17:04 - (Joseph Skrajewski): I remember walking to the corner and there was this little Dunkin Donuts there, and There were no TVs, but there was this speaker in the corner and it was talking about that morning's events. One thing I was taught from a very young age was you simply put one foot in front of the other and you continued to move forward. I went back to that testing center after the break, and before the break, There were probably 15, 20 people in the room. And after the break, there were four of us.

0:17:28 - (Joseph Skrajewski): I remember looking around and then fixating my face on this computer and then finishing out my licensing exam. At the end, you actually hit a button and it pops your score up 10 seconds later. I remember seeing this passing score. And I remember thinking, wow, this is like a really proud moment for me. But at the same time, I remember thinking, how could I be proud in a moment like this? This global tragedy was unfolding.

0:17:54 - (Joseph Skrajewski): I remember going down south to where my parents still live near today. And during that trip down south, I started doing things like evaluating my life. Now, it's so interesting because most people don't remember this, but 911 took place on a Tuesday morning. And over those next five days, the stock market was closed down. And I drank and I used more drank alcohol. I used other things, more than I ever had in my entire life. And that's where, like, substance use disorders comes into the equation here.

0:18:23 - (Joseph Skrajewski): But I'll tell you this. My mother and my father never had a substance. Substance use disorder. My grandfather had struggled with alcohol. And I remember being a little kid, and when I would watch my grandfather drink, he would change. And I remember as a child thinking, like, what could I do? You know? Like, I remember. And I think kids do this. I think they make up stories like, could I have done something differently that would have helped my grandfather?

0:18:46 - (Joseph Skrajewski): And that's why I think it's so important I look at the things I do today. But that experience really played into that. Nevertheless, I drank and used over those five days. The following Monday, we were relocated across the Hudson river because the towers were no longer there when the stock market reopened. All of those clients I prospected on the sidelines could now invest with me. When you have a global tragedy like that, the market recorrects over time.

0:19:11 - (Joseph Skrajewski): And as the market recorrects, money starts coming in. And it was just so interesting, Toby. Like, I thought I had found my place. Like, I thought I had found what I was meant to do. But my drinking had gotten worse, my using had gotten worse, and I just feel blessed, you know, over time. I left Morgan Stanley. I went to a company called Alliance Bernstein, which was this big investment, research again, money was coming in. I thought that that's what I was meant to do in life.

0:19:37 - (Joseph Skrajewski): Like, I thought that, like, you were supposed to make money and that would bring about happiness and that would lead to success. That would be a fulfilling life. But.

0:19:45 - (B): So who would you say you were back then? And what did Joseph in 2000 or 1999? What. What did he want out of life?

0:19:53 - (Joseph Skrajewski): Yeah, you know, I don't know. I mean, I look back and I think, you know, like. Like, was I naive? You know, Like. I mean, I just don't think I had that much life experience. You know, I just. I think I've always been a realist, you know, and I just think I associated, you know, money with success, what I would see on television and what I would see in the movies. I mean, people that had, you know, material things look like that was what success was all about. And, you know, for me, I chased that for a while, but it wasn't, you know, really what just wasn't destined to be and that. And that sort of plays into my story here. Like, you know, I think people, when they're younger, they think like, hey, I'm gonna go make some money and. And, you know, that's gonna lead to me being happy. And we're gonna get married, I'm gonna have kids, we're gonna have a big house, and life's gonna work out magically.

0:20:43 - (Joseph Skrajewski): And I don't think that's the reality for many of us. I think we. We go through up can be challenging at times and beautiful at others. So for me, again, you know, I thought I was going to have this upward trajectory and just run that out for life, and that's not how it.

0:20:57 - (B): Took out right now. Did you have clarity in your vision with specifics like two kids and a house in upstate? Or was it just you were young and Success was going to show itself to you. Do you feel like you were driven by it or pulled toward a goal like that?

0:21:15 - (Joseph Skrajewski): You know, I always wanted to have a bunch of kids, you know, in my mind, like, in theory, you know, I would get married, I would have a number of children, and. Yeah, and I guess it would be like that white picket fence, perfect story. And I mean, I think, you know, I think I'm just grateful that it. That it didn't turn out that way. You know, they talk about, like, resiliency and people and like what we're made of and, you know, we strive through the challenges and hopefully we come out on the other end.

0:21:44 - (Joseph Skrajewski): And I think that people would. Would vision that as my story. I mean, when you're living, you know, a certain type of life, like, you don't see this outsider looking in. Like some people will say, you know, as they hear the more of my story, like, oh, like, you were so resilient, you bounced back. I don't think you see that when you're living it, you know, I think you're putting one foot in front of the other and you're just hoping that things work out for you.

0:22:03 - (B): Yeah. Now at this point of your journey, I mean, you've really just encountered success after success. When you went through undergrad, successfully completed that pasture series seven, you're on that upward trajectory. I mean, whether success was defined for you or not, you were on the path. How did you feel about that at that point? Was it fulfilling? Did you feel kind of a yearning or a calling for something more? Or did you really feel like you were doing what you were meant to do?

0:22:31 - (Joseph Skrajewski): Well, I think at that time, in retrospect, I guess it wasn't enough for me. I mean, when I started using substances, you know, alcohol and other things, I mean, I guess I was searching for more, like, I mean, I guess it wasn't enough success. It wasn't enough money. It wasn't enough in that moment. And so that's why it's interesting, you know, Like, I don't think, you know, I didn't think my drinking was out of control.

0:22:55 - (Joseph Skrajewski): You know, I was still doing well at work. I was still, you know, achieving outsider looking in the company. You know, I wasn't having issues, you know, until they started to happen. And that's what's so interesting about, you know, sort of sort of life evolving. You know, I. I could take it to a number of stories as to, you know, how my progressed and, you know, how I started to get into trouble with substances.

0:23:15 - (Joseph Skrajewski): And, and I think, you know, that's. That's relevant. I mean, I can tell these dramatic stories about, you know, my addiction progressing. But, you know, I was just fortunate. I had a family that gave me an opportunity to go to. To treatment. And I didn't know what treatment was. Like, it's super interesting. Like, you know, now I'm, like, embedded in this world, you know, of addiction recovery and treatment. But I didn't know what that was. You know, I didn't know that there was places that people went to not drink and to find community and to find recovery. And it's so interesting. I represent a large organization, and we've got a lot of patients, and I'll talk to them about Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous, and I'll tell them I didn't know what that was when I arrived here.

0:23:59 - (Joseph Skrajewski): I didn't know there was this embedded place where people went to get help and to stay there. And it's so interesting. I ended up in treatment. And I went to a treatment facility in Southern New Jersey, and I started on this path. I came out here to Southern Californ, California for continuing care at the time. And I couldn't envision myself doing finance or economics for the next 20, 30, 40 years. And I'll never forget this. Somebody came to me in a super insulting way, Toby. And they were like, what are you even good at?

0:24:26 - (Joseph Skrajewski): And I just blurted out, I said, I'm good at school. And they said, why don't you go back to school and get some degrees and letters after your name and all that good stuff? And so that's what I did. I did my graduate work in psychology, which was super different than what I had ever planned on doing. I didn't even like psychology. I hated psychology in undergraduate, quite frankly. But it was tied into this addiction recovery thing that was going to be a part of my life. And, you know, I wanted a better future for myself. I didn't want to drink anymore. I didn't want to use anymore. I wasn't happy with the person that I had become through substances. So I wanted, you know, a different path.

0:24:57 - (Toby Brooks): The thing Joseph's story makes me realize in this moment is that no matter the amount of time or money or degrees we've spent already going down a path, if we're left with a void, if we are left with a question about whether or not it's truly our purpose, nothing fills, nothing makes us feel satisfied. And so the bravery that it takes to make that pivot and make that transition and leverage our own story in order to find new success.

0:25:28 - (Toby Brooks): That's a sign of real strength.

0:25:30 - (Joseph Skrajewski): And so I went back to school, I got my graduate degree, and then I took a humbling job at the time and in Southern California here. And it was exactly what I needed. And I found some community and other people that were buying into this, you know, recovering world. And. And so I was, you know, I was into abstinence, and I was into hanging out with other people in recovery. And this is sort of where my life really ended up changing. You know, somebody said as I was coming up on two years of abstinence, you know, why don't you go check out the Betty Ford Center?

0:26:00 - (Joseph Skrajewski): They help people just like you and me. And I still remember it. You know, we had a security gate on this campus at that time. One way in, one way out. And I remember driving up to that security gate, and as I drove through the security gate and arrived on campus, I remember having this feeling of serenity and peace and family and belonging, and it was everything I had been looking for my entire life.

0:26:29 - (Joseph Skrajewski): And when I arrived here, I went through the interview process, and it was intense. You know, you had people asking you a lot of questions. And I started here as an addiction technician, which are, you know, 247 staff that are here to help patients along. I was able to finish up my graduate degree and get my license and, you know, became a counselor here. And it just felt so good. I felt like I had a purpose. You know, instead of doing, you know, for profit finance, I was doing nonprofit health care.

0:26:56 - (Joseph Skrajewski): And again, I never had planned on that. But I was seeing smiles, and I was seeing glimpses into people's lives, and they were lighting up again. I felt like we were doing something so rewarding, so monumentally important, and it was just remarkable. And I'll still never forget our founding president and CEO at the time, who had been here for decades, gave me a call, and I came running across campus. And I live in the middle of the desert in Southern California, and it's summertime, so it's 120, 15 degrees.

0:27:26 - (Joseph Skrajewski): And I ran across campus, and I was, like, perspiring, and I'm an excitable guy, and I, like, burst through the doors and talked about how much I love being a counselor. But at that time, they had an opportunity for me. They had a vision, and they started talking to me about medical and professional education. And honestly, Toby, I really didn't know what that was all about. I just knew that I wanted to do something that mattered.

0:27:46 - (Joseph Skrajewski): Like, I wanted to do something that would help others. I always believed in spider web effects, you know, like sharing with others so that they could share with others. I just believed in just leveraging the voice that I had to help others. And so they started talking about programs, and it was just so cool at the time. I got to meet Mrs. Betty Ford. I got to meet Dr. Jim West. I got to meet Dr. Tom McClellan. I mean, all these iconic people that were so remarkably well known in helping people not only with substance use disorders, but, you know, Mrs. Ford had helped women with breast cancer. They had reduced stigma with regards to a disease that was so misunderstood.

0:28:24 - (Joseph Skrajewski): And they started talking to me about training medical students and residents and fello and training judges and lawyers and licensed professionals. And it was just people in safety sensitive positions that weren't learning about substance use disorders. And typically, their awareness of it was what they saw on television and saw in the movies. You know, this impression that, you know, people were homeless, lying in gutters in skid row Los Angeles with needles stuck in their arm. And that's what addiction was. And we wanted to do things differently. We wanted to reduce stigma and break down barriers and bring people like yourself and others to our facilities to show them addiction through eyes of human beings living with it. So it was like the ultimate outreach play.

0:29:07 - (Joseph Skrajewski): And I loved it.

0:29:09 - (Toby Brooks): Two things to point out here. First of all, recognize Joseph took a step back in the eyes of the world. He took a huge pay cut. People that thought of him as a success previously are now wondering, what's this guy doing going to grad school and serving as a residence counselor? But he knew, he understood that what. What served his purpose best was to change course. Second of all, I want you to recognize and visualize this guy's always dressed to the nines, full suit. I just. I'm picturing him running across the campus as a Hazelden Betty Ford center in his dress shoes and his navy suit as he gets the good news that he's been promoted.

0:29:44 - (Joseph Skrajewski): You know, it was just. I felt again like it was. It was so meaningful. And at that time, my mentor, Dr. Tom McClellan, was the drug czar for the Obama administration. So I got to do some public policy work on getting outpatient services covered through the affordable care. So we were writing policy, and then I remember that we were always tired of being last in line when it came to funding. Like, addiction medicine was always in the back, and you had all the other houses of medicine, and here was addiction.

0:30:10 - (Joseph Skrajewski): And I wanted to do something about that. And so me and a Number of others started looking at creating the American Board of Addiction Medicine and Addiction Medicine fellowships. We built the first one in California, US and Betty Ford and my good friend Dr. Anna Lemke up at Stanford. And so we now have fellowships on the west coast. And at that point there were just a couple dozen of us sitting at round tables in Washington D.C. and Chicago Talking about our vision of getting addiction medicine recognized on par to reduce stigma and help this population that needed us.

0:30:44 - (Joseph Skrajewski): And now that's grown and evolved over the years whereby we have 85 ACGME gold standard accredited addiction medicine fellowships with hundreds of fellows. What was a couple dozen people at some roundtables in a room is now hundreds and hundreds of people advocating for a population that needs them.

0:31:02 - (Toby Brooks): Not sure if you caught that. So let's recap. Joseph's born in New Jersey with dreams of becoming a high powered Wall street financier, gets a job in the World Trade center, but just so happens to be out of the office on the day of the 911 attacks from that ends up developing a substance use disorder. Eventually his family gets him into care where he undergoes rehab and recognizes there or maybe shortly thereafter that his true calling in life isn't finance, but rather working with those suffering from addiction use disorder. So he decides to get his master's degree, becomes a counselor, gets an entry level job at Hazelden Betty Ford center and is willing to do the hard thing in order to make that transition.

0:31:43 - (Toby Brooks): From there his energy and his efforts are recognized and he's promoted. He's allowed to serve on teams that are crafting federal legislation regardless regarding how patients are cared for who are in the throes of addiction. If that's not someone who went from being undone to becoming undone, then I don't know who is.

0:32:01 - (Joseph Skrajewski): You know, along the way our summer institute for medical students expanded. You know, it's now got 250 students from 120 different schools all over the world coming to our three sites in Rancho Mirage, California, Center City, Minnesota and Newburgh, Oregon. I'm proud of that. To help them see addiction through the eyes of human beings living with it, we built out our professionals in residence, our better late than never program so that know residents, mid career professionals, other people that never got educated on addiction can learn more about it now.

0:32:30 - (Joseph Skrajewski): We built an online learning platform. Toby. I mean I remember back in the day people were like, you know, this will never catch on, you know, and they were like why would we teach this? You know, they all thought curriculums were perfect at the time now, but we never gave up. And so we built out TED style videos and learning platforms and people now use that. You know, hundreds of thousands of people use our platforms today that didn't before.

0:32:51 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah.

0:32:51 - (B): I want to go back to a point you made and it really just struck me. I mean, your story really stoked the fire for this idea for me, this idea that, that people kind of go through chapters of their life, but that's not the totality of the story and the early iteration. Joseph 1.0, you're in high finance and in kind of your, where that went from there. You talk about serenity, peace, family, belonging.

0:33:20 - (B): Those are all terms I would use as an antithesis of high finance. You know, the thought of this pressure packed, win at all costs kind of Wall street mentality when you pivoted from what you thought were your career ambitions or your life's purpose, when you ultimately made that decision to go from that to this, what did that feel like for you? You.

0:33:45 - (Joseph Skrajewski): Well, it was frightening, Toby. Like, I thought, all right, I went to school for, for finance, like I'm supposed to work in finance. You know, I felt like, wow, I had, you know, given four years to getting an undergraduate degree and you know, gone through all these business classes. You know, I was looking at, you know, a lot of my friends that had done the same and they were successful in business.

0:34:04 - (Joseph Skrajewski): So I mean, it was truly like a leap of faith. Like, I mean, I think if you look at people that are in their, you know, late 20s that have done something for, you know, six or seven years and they've gone on this sort of natural progression or, you know, this slowly but surely are rising upwards to just change course midstream, whether it be because of something like addiction in my case, or if it just be like, you know, you move or you have a family, whatever it is, for different strokes for different folks.

0:34:29 - (Joseph Skrajewski): I mean, for me it was frightening. I mean, it was sort of bittersweet to leave behind my training and my education and try something different. But I'm so grateful that I did. I mean, I would have hated to just sat there and, you know, round pegged, square hold this thing and tried to force business for the next 20, 30 or 40 years when I wasn't passionate about it anymore. So I'm, I'm grateful that I did change it up or mix it up. You know, I mean, again, I, you can look at like the finances are what people make. You know, I was going to make a lot less money at that time to do something different. But you know, I Didn't have children at that time. I wasn't married at that time.

0:35:05 - (Joseph Skrajewski): So for me, leap of faith, do something different. You know, what makes my heart sing. And I say that today, you know, you know, what keeps my heart full. Because we have good days and we have bad days, right? I think everybody has that. And I could sit here and say, oh, you know, I had, you know, these challenges during this year and those challenges during another. For me, you know, it was, it was doing something different, trying something, you know, unique.

0:35:30 - (Joseph Skrajewski): And I'm grateful that they gave me the opportunity to work with others, you know, because some people want to become a counselor, you know, and they want to do that for the rest of their life. I couldn't see myself doing that either. So then when they gave me the opportunity to work in medical and professional education, it was, it was a bit different. And you know, I, I mourned working directly with patients at the beginning.

0:35:48 - (Joseph Skrajewski): I missed that personal connection, seeing them five days a week and wishing them on their way. But at the same time, I felt like I could have an even bigger impact in that new role. Because my thought was, all right, I'm going to train med students right now. Bright eyed, bushy tailed, fresh green, not broken or jaded by the system, just sponges for knowledge. I'm going to give them what I deem and what I think truly is a life changing experience.

0:36:15 - (Joseph Skrajewski): Five days, 50 hours of seeing addiction through a compromised population that's hanging on to life with the hope being that they're going to help countless others. Right? I mean, how cool is that, right? I mean, like you're in education, you know, we get the opportunity to meld the minds of the future and we don't know what they're going to do with it, but we have hope and we have faith that they're going to do something proactive and positive. And some do more than others. But at the end of the day, you know, we're doing laws of averages here, right? So I'm just trying to make a difference on a daily basis and, you know, provide a, you know, a good life for patient population.

0:36:51 - (Joseph Skrajewski): You know, I haven't mentioned that I have a son yet. But you know, I think about the things that matter most to me today. You know, I have a little boy, a seven year old, and you know, I look back again to, you know, what my vision of what I wanted in life when I was younger. You know, married, white picket fence, perfect story, four kids. Well, you know, I'm, I'm divorced, you know, I do not have a partner. Today I'm raising a seven year old little boy. I'm co parenting to the best of my ability.

0:37:20 - (Joseph Skrajewski): And I love that I get to see life through my son. And between that and my work, I wouldn't have it any other way. Like, the moment that he was born, my life changed in the most dramatic and best ways because it wasn't always just about me anymore. Like, here I was with this little infant in my arms and I just wanted to provide a good life for it. So we look at what we value in life today. I mean, I value getting up bright and early in the morning to get myself ready.

0:37:53 - (Joseph Skrajewski): I value my son getting up and getting him ready for school. I value dropping him off as I walk him up, holding his hand and giving him a little kiss on his forehead. I value hearing about you putting in a good day at work here and making a difference in the lives of the patients and their families. I value picking him up and hearing about his day. And I mean, he's just so excited too. I mean, it's just like, it's just so beautiful to hear the excitement as he tells me about what he learned over the course of the day and spiders and ants and I mean, I get to be young again. I mean, I spend much of my time just trying to stay young.

0:38:27 - (Joseph Skrajewski): And then at the end of the day, we get to have dinner together and I get to give him a little bath and, you know, get him ready for bed and read him a story. And I mean, we're even reading the Beamer stories right now, which is a series that we created for kids who come from families with addiction. We got to work with Sesame street along the way so I could help explain to my son in an age appropriate way the type of work that we did.

0:38:50 - (Joseph Skrajewski): And next week is our 40th anniversary here. I'm going to bring him back to our campus for the first time since the pandemic started. And he's just so excited and he's so proud. And my daddy works at the Betty Ford Center. He just says that with glee. And I mean, those are the things that matter to me today. You know, my, my son and my work.

0:39:07 - (B): Yeah, that's fantastic. I think for a lot of people who are, who find themselves on one track in life and maybe have a yearning to make that jump to do something else, whether that's divinely inspired or just a. To. To quote the Matrix, like a splinter in your mind like this. The sense that I'm not doing my purpose like My, my why isn't being fulfilled.

0:39:29 - (Toby Brooks): And I just realized that this is now the second matrix splinter in your mind reference that I've made in this episode. So my apologies.

0:39:38 - (B): There's that fear. You mentioned that word fear. And so you have worked to establish yourself and, and to progress in, in one line, and then you make the jump. Was there ever a part of you that, that questioned that transition or, or maybe second guessed yourself? Or do you feel like you've just been pedal to the metal, settle toward this new goal all the way?

0:40:01 - (Joseph Skrajewski): I think there have definitely been ups and downs along the way. You know, I'll hear people sometimes say, like, I wouldn't change a thing in life, and I think I would change some things. You know, I can't change anything. And people will come and they'll ask me these big philosophical questions, like, you know, are you happy, Joseph? You know, and I'll very honestly and directly answer them. You know what, I'm certainly happy enough.

0:40:27 - (Joseph Skrajewski): Like, I am, you know, grateful for all that I've been given in the life that I have today. You know, I, I keep things in perspective, you know, like when I'm having like a hard day or I'm reflecting upon the way I want things to be, I think about others that have it, oh, so much harder than I do. And again, that just reminds me to stay humble. You know, I don't, I don't think it's been just this upward trajectory through life at all. You know, I think it's, you know, we deal with the pitfalls and what's thrown at us.

0:40:54 - (Joseph Skrajewski): You know, I still go to 12 step meetings and I'll hear people share about what their experiences look like. And some have a return to use. And, you know, they're there because they just want to start anew and work a program of recovery again. So I'm reminded of what I have on a daily basis. And I certainly don't want to lose or give up all of the beautiful things that I've accomplished and that I get to experience on a daily basis.

0:41:18 - (Joseph Skrajewski): But no, it hasn't been a upward trajectory. I mean, there are ups and downs. There are good days and bad days. Now there are some really challenging ones where I sit there and I'll bang my head against the wall and I'll think, what could I have done differently that would have led to a better outcome or a softer, easier one? But at the end of the day, I know I can look myself in the face, in the mirror, and I know I can smile.

0:41:41 - (Joseph Skrajewski): I know That I can speak my truth and live a good, honest life. I know I've got faith and in the work that I do and in the relationship that I have with my son. So at the end of the day, would I change some things if I could? Probably. But can I change those things? I can't. So do I live in a world of gratitude today? I do. Yeah, I do.

0:42:02 - (B): I think your story is so illustrative of a concept that's been around in leadership circles for a while. David Brooks talks about the second mountain and how early in life, oftentimes professionals pursue success. And that's, that's the first mountain we try to scale. We want to prove to ourselves, to our significant others, that we have value and that doesn't satisfy. And so the second mountain is significance and it's making an impact and leaving a legacy. And I think about, you know, young, wet behind the ears, 20 year old Joseph working in high finance, thinking about what late 30s Joseph did, shaping public policy with the President of the United States or impacting medical students who go to every reaches of, of the United States or beyond and just how impactful your work has been in a way that probably younger you never would have conceived of.

0:42:56 - (B): So my question is, how do you think you're different today as a result of what you've been through? How did that journey shape you the most, do you think?

0:43:04 - (Joseph Skrajewski): And I really appreciate you saying that, Toby, because, you know, we get caught up in life, right? We're moving a million miles an hour at times and we're juggling responsibilities and trying to stay accountable to ourselves and to the ones that rely upon us and need us. So it's been a journey. It's totally been a journey. And my priorities have shifted, they have changed. And it's funny, they say sometimes we grow to be our parents, we evolve into grownups. And as life evolves and changes, the things that we value and care about the most change at this point, same time.

0:43:41 - (Joseph Skrajewski): And so, you know, I'm a lifelong learner. You know, my life gets turned upside down from time to time. You know, I'm constantly evolving and trying to stay flexible. I mean, it's like, you know, the pandemic happening, right? I mean, that's like affected all areas of life along the way. But that's helped me, you know, not be so rigid with regards to, you know, not only how I worked but how I lived.

0:44:05 - (Joseph Skrajewski): It's given me the opportunity to have additional time with my son at this age where he's just, oh my, gosh he's so fun. I mean, it's just remarkable. You know, he started in a new Catholic school right now. So it's reinstalled my faith, you know, in going to church and praying together. I mean, it's just. I mean, I live a good life today. And I mean, you know, again, I don't want to get caught up in the what ifs or what could have happened differently because I can't change those things. I mean, there are times I'm a dreamer. There are times when I think, are there there other diseases or other illnesses that I could help as well?

0:44:40 - (Joseph Skrajewski): I mean, do I know what the next chapter of my life is going to be? But when I start future tripping or thinking about where I'm going to be in three years or five years or 10 years, I just rein myself in and remind myself that today's a good day and I'm making a difference. I'll hear people say all the time, oh, you're having an impact on the future of healthcare. And I don't think you think about that, you know, while you're living it. You know, I mean, I've got my, my friends and colleagues here at the Betty Ford center. And, you know, one of them's been here for 35 years, one of them's been here for 22 years. I've now been here for 14 years. And we'll reminisce back on the time that we had sitting in rooms with Mrs. Ford, Dr. West, Tom McClellan, Keith Humphries, Mark Gold, like all these other people.

0:45:27 - (Joseph Skrajewski): But at that time, that was just work like, like that was just like suiting up and showing up and, and trying to matter. And I think that's what we still do today. We suit up and we show up and we try to matter. And if we can influence others, that's just gravy.

0:45:42 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah.

0:45:43 - (B): So the programming that you built, I actually got to partake in and spend a week out there, was truly transformative for any physicians in training or healthcare professionals. Cannot recommend it enough. But one of the things that impacted me the most during that experience was sitting in on the group therapy that your residents participate in. And one exercise that they did that was particularly powerful was seated across from one another.

0:46:15 - (B): One of, one of the participants in the program looking at another participant, and they were instructed to forgive, slash give advice to their younger self. And that. That on the surface, like, if you've never experienced that, that sounds a little hokey. And I don't mean to disrespect the technique at all. Because I'm getting to the point here. It was so powerful. Just physically kinesthetically going through the process of looking another human being in the eye, pretending that they're your younger self and forgiving them for false missteps or giving them advice for future things was so powerful. So. So I love this question. What advice would you have for the younger Joseph?

0:46:57 - (Joseph Skrajewski): Yeah, I would tell him to dream big. You know, I would tell him not to. To limit himself to one or two things that he thinks he's destined for in life. You know, if I would have taken this linear path, I wouldn't be sitting in this seat today. I would tell him to think outside of the box and, you know, shoot for the stars. Because not everyone has those. Those types of opportunities. I mean, we're blessed to have options and it's a beautiful world that we live in. And so, I mean, I look back and I. Again, I never would have imagined that I would have evolved to the place I'm at today.

0:47:31 - (Joseph Skrajewski): So, yeah, to just put one foot in front of the other and appreciate the little things.

0:47:35 - (Toby Brooks): Appreciate the little things. Such sage advice. So easy to say, yet so hard to do. If you think about it, friends, they're all little things. And those little things make for big things. So what I love the most about what Joseph has to tell younger Joseph is to understand that the journey happens one step at a time.

0:47:59 - (Joseph Skrajewski): I mean, I look back, my family is still in New Jersey for the most part, and I'm out here in California. And there are times when I really wish we could all be together. But then I pause and I breathe and I remind myself about how good my life is again. And how I have a beautiful son and a wonderful workplace and good friends and. And people that I can count on and. And again, I just do my best, you know, I just do all that I can. So, yeah, I just. I would tell my younger self, you know, don't limit yourself. Don't. And don't be afraid to make mistakes and don't be afraid to.

0:48:33 - (Joseph Skrajewski): To try new things because you never know what, you know, what might stick.

0:48:38 - (B): Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but your role has changed. Within Hazelden Mediford, you were Director of Medical education and now are in business development. Is that corporate?

0:48:46 - (Joseph Skrajewski): Correct. You know, it's a leap of faith and, you know, it's bittersweet right now, Toby, you know, I've built something really special with a team, something that I'm extremely proud of and have dedicated a large portion of my life to, you know, I've given my all to medical and professional education. And so I have this new opportunity right now where I can leverage that lived experience the relationships that I've built with others, with the hope being that I can help help more patients access care than ever. And so it'll be interesting. You know, again, I'm taking this leap of faith and I'm taking things seriously and I'm putting one foot in front of the other and I'm working with healthcare systems and hospitals and individuals to try to get more patients access to care, to try to open up more opportunities for people to access medical and professional education programs, to get more kids into children's programs, to get more families into families, family programs.

0:49:44 - (Joseph Skrajewski): I like to think I have like a menu of opportunities that I can provide to the individuals that we serve and that we treat. So we'll see how this year turns out. You know, I'm feeling optimistic and I'm feeling supported and I'm feeling blessed right now. But yeah, it's an interesting transition.

0:50:01 - (B): That's fantastic. Well, this is the last one and I intentionally don't include it on the script because I want an un rehearsed, just raw, honest answer. The title of the podcast, Becoming Undone. What's Left Undone?

0:50:15 - (Joseph Skrajewski): What's Left undone For me, I would like to, to meet someone and you know, I would like to have more a partner and more children. So I think that there's still that chapter of my life that, that remains to be written. I think this new position of mine is going to be incredible and I think I'm going to be able to really have another profound positive impact on, on the world. And if not, I'll find my way along the journey.

0:50:40 - (Joseph Skrajewski): So I still think there are a lot of people left to help out there right now. So I'm. A lot of it is still open ended for me. One thing I've learned throughout life is that I, you know, I make predictions and God laughs at them. You know, I sit here and try to write the future and sculpt out what, you know, three years, five years, 10 years down the line. I know I'll be here for my son. I know I get, I'll get to watch him grow up. I know I'll be here for my community and for people who that need me.

0:51:04 - (Joseph Skrajewski): But as far as, you know, I don't want to work extremely late into life. So, you know, I do hope to, you know, retire at a reasonable age so that I can travel and spend more time with my family. I just want to live a good, positive, profound, proactive, faith filled life.

0:51:20 - (B): Yeah, no, that's what this is all about. I hate the idea of endings and the notion that what's left remains unwritten. There's a beautiful mystery in that and every day is an opportunity for me to pursue that. And so, Joseph, I can't thank you enough. It's been fantastic. First of all, I owe you for this summer that that changed my life, the experience. You, I won't say single handedly, but you certainly, your fingerprints are all over the summer medical program.

0:51:49 - (B): It's fantastic. But also just your story is powerful, it's inspirational and it is transformed, transformative. So thank you again for agreeing to meet with me and I sincerely appreciate it.

0:52:03 - (Joseph Skrajewski): Thank you so much, Toby.

0:52:05 - (Toby Brooks): So there you have it. Episode one is in the bag. You know, it's been said you can't do a thousand podcasts until you've done your first. So I'm happy to report that number one is done and they will get better from here. As I continue to learn the new software, as I continue to get better at interviewing, my hope is that you will stay the course, you will stick this out with me, and together we can develop a community of folks who are committed to Becoming Undone.

0:52:33 - (Toby Brooks): Becoming Undone is a nitro hype creative production written and produced by me, Toby Brooks. If you or someone you know has a story of resilience and victory to share for the show, please contact me@undonepodcast.com becoming undone can be heard on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and wherever else you get your podcasts. Until next time, everybody keep getting better.