It is yet another great day to get better. Welcome to becoming undone the podcast for those who bear bravely, risk mightily and grow relentlessly. Join me Toby Brooks as I invite a new guest each week to examine how high achievers can transform from falling apart to falling into place. He must have been said that inspiration can strike in unexpected places. Take for instance the Lou Goldberg-esque way in which this show in this movement called Becoming Undone came to be and first started to take reek in my mind. It was about three years ago I was watching the Olympics a favorite past time of mine and I was overcome with this unshakable and troubling notion. I realized that for every champion whose story gets told a thousand times, there are thousands of runners up and also rands whose stories are never told. For every gold medalist who celebrated top the podium, there's a fourth place finisher and a tenth place finisher and a did not finish her we've never heard of. And it wasn't just a sports phenomenon either. For every Broadway lead, Boyband Supergroup and billionaire social media mogul, there is a seemingly endless line of nameless and faceless others whose timing was just off whose talent peak just a little too soon or a little too late or any of a thousand other reasons why they just missed the mark. Shortly after I watched the HBO documentary expertly produced by the most decorated Olympian in history, Michael Phelps called The Weight of Gold. In the film Phelps and countless familiar and recognizable world class athletes discussed a psychological toll of competing on a world stage. Frequently, the end of the Olympics, not to mention the end of competitive careers, can exact a heavy toll leading to depression, emptiness, loss of identity and even significantly increased risk of suicide that many athletes experience when the careers are over. Surely there was something to be said or better yet done about the situation. There was, but at the time I didn't know what to do with it. So it sat there. Like the proverbial splinter in my mind. Fast forward to October 2022. For some inexplicable reason and I mean absolutely inexplicable reason. I had an incredibly specific urge to Google whatever happened to white guys. W-H-Y-T-G-I-Z. I keep in mind I grew up in the country without table and without MTV. White guys, the group we sparked in a search, had been an obscure early 90s pop group, mentioned within a nearly obscure album, All 414-All by Michael Bivens' Sablevax, the East Coast family, in 1992. If they were mentioned in the liner notes and appeared in the video, but to my knowledge nothing else ever happened. It's a highly specific 30-year-old memory that just randomly bubbled to the surface of my white matter one random Tuesday. Don't do me out just yet, I promise I'm doing somewhere with this. I remember listening to the album, checking out the liner notes and seeing this group of 5 white guys who were sure to be Bivens' big 10 records next supergroup, along with a voice of man and another bad creation. But they weren't. Still what happened to white guys? What I discovered on my search was that I wasn't alone in my curiosity. As a matter of fact, 90s pop culture expert and former MTV VJ Dave Holmes had put together a 10-part passion project, waiting for impact, focused entirely on tracking down the people and the story of how the group, actually started their journey as too special, didn't sudden impact, and then white guys, how they came to be, and the story behind their near brush with pop stardom. The show sent me down this blissful and wildly engrossing and entertaining rabbit hole, with the songs and the entertainers of my youth. Dave not only tracked down every member of the group got their story and published it all on the web to glorious effect. He also interviewed several other 90s icons like Joy McIntyre of the New Kids on the Block and Freedom Williams, formerly of CMT Music Factory, and to loosely paraphrase an episode of Seinfeld, it was real, and it was spectacular. About the same time, I spent a week in Rancho Maraj California as I've mentioned in previous episodes, observing addiction care and treatment at the Hazelden Betty Ford Center. On a strike by how most of the patients participating in the program had recognized the high cost of the past mistakes, and they were resolved to do better on their next opportunity, and their lives had come apart at the seams, figuratively coming and done. It committed to a difficult but worthwhile process of healing and recovery that would continue as long as they live. They had become works in process, undue. Suddenly and forcibly, the four of these individuals, and what I thought were isolated ideas, people just host a podium to depression and despair that can come after things like the Olympics and a random podcast about a 90s blue band who never released an album. And the steely resolve of addiction patients overcoming and getting better and fighting back. They all collided and mashing my mind in a remarkable moment of clarity, nearly missing, failing, just falling short. The stories of real people who had fallen apart only to later fall into place in a podcast like Dave's, but with inspiration from shows like Lewis House School of Greatness, becoming undone was born. And fittingly, I guess I absolutely knew I had to get on the show, the guy who's worked and inspired the idea to begin with, let's see absolutely perfect example of resilience on his own path to victory. I did my research and I learned all I could about Dave Holmes. I discovered that after MTV he'd gone on to become an actor and an author. He'd written and published a book, Party of One, in 2016. I immediately ordered it, when it arrived I've filed through it in a couple of days struck by just how in many ways he and I are so dissimilar, yet so alike in others. I'd listened to waiting for impact and some tiredies for more times. But each listen I was less focused on being entertained, and more focused on reverse engineering a show that could be so true to the research and journalistic integrity of telling the story in true crime fashion. It also be so fun and entertaining. If podcasting was the house that I intended to build, then waiting for impact was the blueprint I intended to follow. In the show Dave acknowledges his own journey, failing out of college at Holy Cross as he battled depression and addiction. He'd been publicly out of it as one of the only gay students at the conservative Catholic school. In his own words, he managed to pull out of the emotional mose-type of his shame spiral. However changes life he worked up the courage to take a shot at MTV's reality contest, want to be a VJ. He finished runner up out of a veritable sea of contestants just missing the offer of a dream job. But he didn't press the network executive so much along the way that they offered him his dream gig as a VJ anyway. A smoker and a drinker who'd been criticized in his MTV days for being overweight eventually became an avid cross-fitter and a competitive triathlete. Through later experiences as an actor, author, and editor at large as Esquire, Dave has been open, honest, and vulnerable, and sharing both his struggles and his triumphs on his path to a life of both success and significance. It seemed as though for every year of disappointment Dave had discovered and embraced a gang of accomplishment. If anyone knew what it meant to go from falling apart to falling into place, it was Dave. He had done so countless times and in countless ways. I reached out to Dave hoping I might get a moment of his time to ask him some questions about his path from being undone to becoming undone to my utter amazement he actually responded. It took a while but we finally connected and agreed upon time. And what follows today in this episode is Dave Holmes, number one fanboys attempt to glean the nuggets of wisdom and his experiences have taught him. I'm not sure what I expected to come from the conversation. Will he come BFS, meeting on Zoom regularly to talk about obscure yet mutually enjoyed little facts like how the legal ramifications of the copyright renewal act of 1992 forever change sampling, not to mention the entire music industry ever since? But he sees that promise in me that he'd want to mentor me on this podcasting and newly attorney. We want to collaborate on a new book project. I was still getting ahead of myself. Most likely it would simply be a brief glimpse into the mind and life of a high achiever who has managed to leverage the bigger pain of life's disappointments into the sleek flavor of eventual victory. And if I had to guess that say it was the last one. Regardless, I'll forever be grateful and in Dave's death for him graciously taking the time to tell his story, share some laughs and do inspire listeners with a life well lived. Thanks Dave, you and your work had an impact. It's a great day to get better. I'm thrilled to have actor, author and personality Dave Holmes with us here today. Dave, welcome. Thank you so much for having me. It's good to meet you. Yeah, same here. This particular show was a long time coming, but for me, it's probably the most important one because simply put this show, the book that I'm working on, what I hope will eventually become kind of this movement where we reframe failure and talk about what it means to succeed. It wouldn't have happened if not for your 10 part podcast waiting for impact, which hopefully we'll have time to get to a little bit later. Well, so thank you very much. That's that is so good to hear. I mean, is that I that I did what I set out to do. So that makes me very happy. Thank you. You did. I kind of became the ultimate Dave Holmes fanboy after I collided with the show. I was on a long trip and just binge the whole thing the first time through and it was just entertaining. The pop culture references the 80s and 90s music, but this obscure piece of music history really struck a chord with me and in the closing moments of the entire show, you say, make your thing. We need it. We need you. You we are pointing at you in a word. I was inspired. So thank you. That makes me so happy. So for you start at the beginning, wherever that was for you've got a fantastic character art. Well, I grew up mostly in St. Louis, Missouri. I was born in New Jersey, but we moved to St. Louis when I was four. And I I was I knew that I that I wanted to perform and I knew that I wanted to create and and I knew that I was I knew that like I had a brain for something other than what I knew adult life to be and to look like right. I had two older brothers and a father who were very practical, very traditional men. And I was a little different, right. I loved, you know, I love to Carol Burnett and I loved, you know, the original cast recording for Annie and there were just there were things that made me feel like I was alive. And as I as a gruelter and his like boys, my age started to gravitate more towards sports and whatnot. I just really never did. I like to make up stories and I liked to like I had action figures and and I would I would create sort of casts and long stories and essentially soap operas with them. And and that was kind of that was what I stuck with I sang and I would act in plays. I would there was a local paper that had local auditions and stuff and I would like put myself in the way of the vows and and that was kind of where that's where my passion was. But my my my brain my more practical side saw the other boys and men around me and was like that's that's what you do that what they're doing is what a boy supposed to do so I can do this for a little while and get it out of my system. But at some point I have to get practical. So so I always even as a kid had this sort of internal sort of tug of war. And you know and still like there's still a part of me that like every time baseball season starts and like this is the year this is the year I'm going to get into it. I'm 51's probably not going to happen and that's okay. Yeah. So in your book in the opening chapter I love how you use music to describe emotion. My daughter brings his vocal performance major and I was a sports guy and she has opened my eyes to this world of art and theater and musical. She's she's been in a couple of community productions and it's what she's all about and she really convinced me that you know sport and art really aren't that different you pursue this passion. Sometimes you get your shot like you like to say you took a big swing and sometimes it works out and other times it doesn't. But what she's taught me is that's fundamentally human and in your book you describe the no rain video and the beagle. And I love that visual who was Dave back then when you felt like that little girl dancing solo who was Dave and what did he really want out of life. I was what was that 1991. I was in college and I I really like there was you when I look back on it it and this this could just be memory or like current current me with the with the wisdom that I've gained since like putting that on a younger kid. In retrospect it really feels like when I decided to go to college or when I decided on a college there I could go the path that like my my heart and my gut wanted me to go in or I could sort of become what I thought like I was supposed to become and there thereby please my family and. And be what a what a what a man is supposed to be and I chose that path and it was wrong it was just wrong for me I went to a place called Holy Cross in mess just a great school and I met terrific people there but it was a place for what I thought like a man was. And I shouldn't have done that and like the internal struggle really kind of messed me up during that time I was I was depressed and anxious and and I just didn't I just didn't know what to do with myself I got suspended after my freshman year for like really never ever going to class and I should have taken that I honestly should have taken the hand and gone somewhere where like I could learn how to use a brain like mine for an income and I could like. Not be the only gay person on campus and like things like that but I just was like no I have not now not only do I have to go and do it a man does but I also have to like prove them wrong and finish what I started whatever so I that was like the no rain video was the year I came back and I was in an off campus house with guys who not have got along with one another and it was just it was miserable and weird and I just I knew that there was another life waiting for me but I did not get to it and in that way I was. And in that video it's this is this girl who just wants to like dance and sing in a bee costume and everyone's like you're weird get out of here and then she like throws open she finds a gate in a in a glen and like opens a gate door and like there are other people in bee costumes and it's like that's that might exist somewhere in the world for me but I'm just going to have to like keep my head down get through this and then right there yeah. So you you managed to graduate from Holy Cross it didn't come easily and you encountered your share of obstacles along the way. If you find yourself in a job that you don't particularly love and this opportunity comes down the road to become a VJ. You mentioned both in the podcast and the book that you had to climb out of bed at 4 a.m. to go stand in line. How do you feel that your experiences that Holy Cross and maybe even earlier back in St. Louis said prepared you to be that brave that was a pretty bold thing to do well you know having having failed on such a massive scale in college like really having messed it in every possible way and you mentioned like obstacles that were in my way I put every obstacle that was in my way in my way. All of my problems were self generated it was just not it was not a good scene but I you know I got out of there and and I got out with just an insane drive to make something of myself not even really to show them but to like show me that I that I wasn't failure and even when I was you know in this like advertising job that I didn't like I was still I was still doing improv shows in bars for three people where they were like twice many people on stage and there were in the audience and like you know attempting stand up and just doing a million just trying to find my thing and and yeah then I saw I saw this ad or not wasn't even a story on billboard.com about what would turn out to be one of the VJ and I you know of course grew up in front of MTV the the VJ like position was like of course my dream job but I had no idea how to get it other than to go and stand in line and for in the morning and I was like well you know really are happy it probably won't happen but I'll feel like a joke if I don't try right and I don't have anything to lose and I hate my job so why not just take a day and go and stand in line and at least just like see the inside of the place you know see where the studio looks like and maybe maybe I would get like you know I would talk to somebody and they'd be like hey we like we like your attitude or whatever we have a production assistant job or a writer job whatever and so I thought I have to go but in that moment at like four in the morning it was that internal like tug of war again of like I was 27 and and I was like boys my age or start up by houses and stuff and you know having practical jobs and that's really what I'm supposed to be doing and if I go to this thing what what happened I maybe get a job or whatever it's like this is a silly thing for 27 year old to do and I remember to do. And I remember having that like internal argument in, you know, pitch darkness at a very, very early hour as, you know, my eyes were stinging from fatigue. And I, I don't know what it, I don't know what it was that took the scale toward get out of bed and go to the thing. But I did. And I don't, I did, and it set my life on such a completely new course that I, I like, I honestly don't. I can't imagine who will wear that would be if I did. D-d-stay. While I certainly couldn't have known it at the time, that single act of alarm clock obedience changed the entire trajectory in course of Dave's life forever. And here I'm telling it, it wasn't so much a premeditated attempt to make his dreams come true, as it wasn't active quiet desperation to break free from a likely future that he'd grown to hate. Not to mention a shot to see the cool inner workings of the MTV studios. For whatever the reason and despite the long odds, they've got out of bed, got dressed, and got in line. It was a bold move. So you end up as a finalist on one of the VJ, right? And you finish second to this Tim Burton caricature that is Jesse Camp. Yeah. From that moment, did you view that as I succeeded all the way to the end or I failed? I, I, couldn't even think in those terms at that time. First of all, when I showed up, I mean, I knew it was like an open call and I knew that they were going to like get some press from it and all that kind of thing. But I don't think I understood that it was going to be on live TV after a certain point. And then I understood that and I thought, well, that's going to, you know, if anything happens, that's going to be very strange. And I'm going to have to keep not going to work. But they, from this, like, they had until midnight on Tuesday to let us know if we had made the top 10 and would there for it need to be in the studio the next morning. And they called it like seriously, like 1158 on Tuesday. And I, and from that time, I, I just was operating in a state of shock, right? Yeah. And the whole thing is such a blur. I found the VHS tapes at my parents plays. And I digitized them and I am terrified to watch. So I have it yet. But that whole situation was so strange and so exciting. And I really don't think I ever thought that I had a shot of winning. So in my head, it was like, like, lose, well, lose, right, lose the best you can. Whatever emotions you might have about not winning, just stick a pin in them and come back, come back another time and be sad or angry or whatever. But the job is to get the get a job, make something good from it. And so that procedure, like began immediately. There was a rat party and it was like, I felt a little emotionally not super stable. But it was like, you know what? Just go. Just go. And smile and shake hands and get business cards. And if you got to feel away about it, feel away about it on Tuesday, right? And I don't think I ever got, I don't think I ever actually did because it was like immediately there, there was work to be done. And I then I got to it and worked out. My daughter shared with me her first week in college. They're like, congratulations, you're all artists. Your job is not to land the gigs. Your job is to audition. And that's such a powerful mental shift. Like, isn't it? Getting a role means I get to do what I love. My job, the thing that I'm getting paid for is to just keep putting myself out there where in an industry where failure is so much a part of what you do. And that's so foreign to me. Like you apply for a job, you stay there for extra than years and maybe apply for another job. But you don't put yourself out there weekend and week out and maybe not even get a courtesy letter back saying thanks for coming in. Yeah. Yeah. I heard, I remember hearing something like that. Like in my ear when I was still in advertising and like taking acting classes and stuff at night, I took a class in commercial auditions. And that's what the, that's what the instructor said too was like, what you do is you go and you audition and you do the best you can. And when you walk out of the room, you forget about it completely. Do not think about it again. If it happens, then terrific icing on the cake. But yeah, your job is so auditioned and then to forget it and not go over it and over it and over it in your head. And as you said that, I was like, I'll never be able to do that in a million years. You might as well tell me that my job is to fly. But you do. Like after a certain point, you're just like, yeah, okay, I did it. I did the best I can if I get it. I get it. Great. That's absolutely right. And it's a good attitude to go forward with it. Yeah. So you are this purveyor of all things pop culture, love of music. You've got this encyclopedic knowledge. So that makes you on paper, the perfect person for this MTV job. But you don't have this aesthetic that you're the guy you lost out to had. Sure. Sure. And it feels like you've done the heavy work that would have should have led you to deserve that job. And that shines through eventually. Like that's ultimately what helped you get an offer outside of want to be a VJ. So how did you take that disappointment and then just turn that into kind of iron will determination. I'm going to make this happen. All those years I spent reading variety and all these things that I love that are core to me. They were actually preparing me for this dream job that I didn't even know existed back then. Yeah. When I lost and I think I say this in the podcast or maybe I'm a book I don't remember. But I was supposed to be at a good college friends wedding that Saturday the day of the finals was Saturday. So obviously I had to you know, beg out. And so the groom was like, we'll be in the bar at the reception place watching. I didn't think about it until hours or days or whatever afterwards. But it's like, God, I'm just my college friend sat in the bar and watched me lose. Awful. But like as I went forward, I was like, well, I'm going to, you know, like now I have these business cards and I have these sort of connections with people and they've said like, Oh, you know, we should find something for you. But they'll forget, you know, people forget and they may have a warm feeling toward me now, but they'll that'll wear off. So I'm just going to keep calling and emailing and like any half idea that I ever had in my life, I wrote down and turned into like a show pitch and and like I just thought like, I'll either get somewhere or they'll tell me stop calling. And if they tell me stop calling, that would be, I would feel weird about that, but it can't be any worse than what just happened, which really wasn't that bad, you know? In the contest determined by fan vote, Dave appearing fairly straight laced, but overflowing with obscure facts and trivia about all things music, a knowledge he'd acquired over years of study and a genuine love for pop culture lost to Jesse Camp, who was unforgettable, unique and aesthetic, but no doubt lacking in just about everything else. For what I would suggest is probably the same human instinct we all seem to have and not being able to look away from a car accident that we witnessed on the side of the road, the teens of the 90s who called into the show and voted were somehow drawn to the spectacle that was Jesse. Meanwhile, MTV exec saw real substance in Dave and doing no small part to his dog it persistence and not only in his words again lose well, but also make something come of this incredible opportunity it eventually paid off. I got very lucky in that the the people like the production assistants and the producers and the bigwig MTV executives who were like 29 were all kind of they all came to MTV because they were people like me. They were people who grew up loving, loving music and entertainment and wanting to like wanted to make stuff, wanting to like make fun TV, the kind that they grew up watching. And I think they I think if I made it to the well I made it to the top 10, I think that happened because some of those people in that conference room as they were like holding up people's polaroids and debating them. I think a lot of those people felt like I was a version of them and so they were kind of rooting for me and for themselves. And I think I kind of benefited from that. And also from the fact that the person who won you know was a crazy character but was not you know not the most disciplined reader or researcher of things. So you end up with the job you you don't win the contest but ultimately you win the war you you land this dream job and you find yourself on a variety of different programs at MTV. There's clips of you introducing Britney Spear. I mean you're at the center of this cultural phenomenon. Wow. But it doesn't last terribly long. That's not a career where someone hires in as a VJ and MTV not to mention the whole industry change but only there for three and a half four years. I was there 98 to 2002. So like four or four and a half something like that. Yeah. So it comes to an end. I'm curious that dream job that you didn't know existed as a child you landed and then you walk away from it. How much did it become part of your identity for a lot of athletes we look at this like oh I wanted to be in the NFL all my life for an artist. So I want to be on Broadway all my life. Nine year old Dave didn't know he wanted to be a VJ. But now you were and now that's gone. Yeah. How is that similar or different from that person that's been ruminating on this their whole life? Yeah. I just said ruminating. Sorry. Four five years is about the best you can hope for really. Like you know that's that's a job that they it's like Manuto they kind of cycle you in and out. So I feel like I got what I wanted and you know it's it's not a job you stay in forever in that last six months. I started to feel myself getting less busy and I started to watch new people get cycled in and it was there is no there is no last day and there is no like a by party or whatever it's just like your under contract until you aren't and nobody really even knows this is like the check stuff's coming and that's kind of what happened like I you know I called a couple of the people who I worked with in my early days who again were now like big executives and not yet 30 years old and I you know called and said thank you and they were like oh yeah I guess yeah I guess that's it. Well yeah okay I guess you're working anymore anyway goodbye thanks for everything it's just kind of it like Peter's out in that way right yeah and I I loved it but I also felt like it gave me give me you know some name recognition and a little bit of a platform and I was I was starting to come out to LA a little bit more in my last few months at MTV and there was so much more TV work out here and I thought okay I'm just gonna kind of write it and get in that audition circuit and keep going and so I so I did and I was very lucky and that I found a lot of TV work for the next 10 years or so and also a lot of you know being in audition rooms with Daddy Bonn a Ducci and I would see we were on the same like circuit there's like a handful of guys who were oh god who's the guy Roger Lodge there are a bunch of us who who kept you know kind of bumping into one another and any of us sometimes it worked out and sometimes it didn't and I stayed afloat yeah for longer than I thought I would right yeah I love the visual so I spend a lot of time my wife works with children pretty extensively so you get to talk with them and there's so precious you talk to a nine year old hey what do you want to be on I mean influencer you know like every little kid now wants to be an influencer so now you're a podcaster like again this is not something that young Dave back in St. Louis new existed so now talk me through that transition from MTV to TV work to now you have this kind of burgeoning media empire growing under your own feet yeah I mean here's hoping yeah I mean it is it is not a thing that existed when I was growing up and it is also not a thing that I can explain to my own mother you know I truly like when when when when for impact came came out I really was eager for her to listen to it and she was like well what time is it on it's not that's not really it's kind of just always on well what channel it's not really a channel like so when I get in my car what what station do I go it's not that it's a little it's a little tricky and I still like even really milder brothers I can't quite explain to them what it is that I do I was very lucky in like the early early days of of podcasting I was able to you know Jimmy Pardo Jimmy Pardo one of the greatest comedians of all time was very early in the into the podcast world with a show called Never Not Funny and he was in acquaintance of mine when I first moved out to LA and so he had me on and and I immediately saw like what this new sort of form could be he's somebody who is brilliant but it's very difficult in the world that existed in whatever was 2005 for him to get to the next level because his comedy is all crowd work which you can't really do on a late night show you have to do like your your bits and his bits are funny but his crowd work is like out of control amazing so he created this thing for himself and it immediately caught on and and this was right when I was in the kind of an early stage of my career where I was like you know pitching shows and going on general meetings and and finding out that all of all that the networks really wanted was like you know saucy unscripted shows you know do you like can you maybe pitch a docu series about like an erotic cake baker or something no I can't I don't think I can't I don't think that's what I was here to do but there was this thing where it was like the playing field was wide open anybody with a microphone could get on and and make something and everybody's got an equal shot of exploding right and in the last you know 12 15 years we found that to be true like I've seen friends who who didn't quite know where they fit in now own media empires like as you've said like you know Karen Kulger from Georgia Hardstock I'm known forever and they they both have worked steadily but never really broken through and then they got together and they did my favorite murder and now they own houses and the hills and they're making stuff that they love and they you know hired me to do waiting for impact which I'm grateful so over time you know I've I have a few that I do myself and then as my writing career kind of became a thing and and I got a regular you know magazine gig ideas that aren't quite books but are a little bit more than a magazine piece I can sort of now say like okay well what's what's the six to ten episode thing that I can make out of this and interview people and it's all the story in a different way I've ran into this I loved right and I've tried media I've tried blogs I've tried social media and people will listen to me read what I've written yeah way more readily than they'll read what I've read but also maybe maybe that's just a better way and we didn't have it before like you know I don't I don't think that it's necessary amount of attention whether you're listening or or like looking at words right we just didn't really have we had like maybe AM radio and then after a time like this American life and radio lab and stuff like that like audio ways to tell stories yeah for sure what advice would you give the little boy who was in pursuit of your childhood dreams follow your gut just follow your gut there is your head's gonna get you into a lot of trouble and we I guess I don't know whether this is a good or a bad thing let's say it's a good thing we're now in a world where you're probably not gonna get rich if you if you want to get into the entertainment world unless you're in a family that's already rich you're probably not gonna get super rich the the error of the blockbuster is largely gone so an attempt to please everybody is going to bum you out and probably not work but something that you're nuts about like a story that you're dying to tell or a song that you're dying to sing or a thing that only you can write or whatever do that do that thing and and put it out there and it'll find its audience and you might be able to sustain yourself you know you might be able to have like a comfy middle class existence to the degree that that exists in America anymore you know you can you can do that thing you know you can make an honest living you probably won't be rich and you definitely don't want to be famous so just do do you think follow follow your own heart now that will be the way to satisfaction for you yeah that's great one thing I was surprised about as I'm reading through and you'd talk about smoking all through school and drinking and not being healthy but by the last chapter you're a cross-fitter you're a triathlete you're a marathoner is that just a product of being surrounded by that in southern California or is there something within you that ultimately led you to make that decision you don't just roll out of Ben Room of Triathlon that is a conscious choice no that is a conscious choice and yeah part of it is is living in southern California where not only is it beautiful every day you can always go outside and you can always get on your bike or go for a run or whatever and not only are you surrounded by like people who are in really good shape and if you aren't you you got to look in the mirror and you know deal with that fact but also like the night life is terrible I'm so lucky in that like I just I would rather I would much rather stay home than like go to a club you know my improv days in LA were a lot of you know late nights and stuff but basically it's it's so much more pleasurable to be in bed by 930 and up by 5 right because it's it's gorgeous I when I guess it was the mid-Aunts when I did my first triathlon and what the way that I justified it to myself was that I was at a school and I I was kind of trucking along career wise and doing things that I knew that I could do and I felt like I hadn't had the feeling of gradually getting better at something like absolutely sucking at something and then day by day learning and growing or whatever training yourself to get better and better and better and like doing something in May that I couldn't do in January is not an experience that I'd had in a long time and I and I felt like that was something that I needed and so so I did and I loved it and I got very emotional when I crossed the finish line and I was like well okay I'd do stuff like this now and I'm I am that I'm doing New York City marathon again this year and I'm dreading it but it's January and that's in November by the time November rolls around it'll still hurt a lot but I you know I will have trained myself to do it and that that's something everybody really needs you got like whether it's that or needle points or a video game if you want it to be like doing something that requires daily work and improvement is super super important yeah I know you know my motto strategic and purpose relentless and pursuit better every day David Sonnell on the head couldn't have said it better myself and even though my goals for the near future involve a weight room and a half marathon days reminder to pursue something you can suck at for a little while comes at a perfect time for me that was me this this podcast idea I said I'm not just gonna dabble and it's my daughter and I dabbled with one week I think we produced four episodes her freshman year of college with the idea of being I'm a professor she's a student no that'll be fun banter we'll disagree but I didn't do it regularly with this I said screw it I'm all in I'm doing at least three episodes a week I'm gonna launch with ten and a year from now we'll have one 15 will reassess and see if this is worth the investment or not but it's been great it's taught me new skills it's helped me reconnect with people that have lost touch with connect with new people that I've never met so it's it's been really cool I love it I love it and yeah you really do you have to you have to commit you have to really commit because it's so easy not to do stuff but it's it's great if you if you do what you've done which is make like make a goal for yourself but also tell people about it yeah so that if you don't do it there's an added element of shame I find it I'm Catholic so I find that shame can be a really really good motivator right so let's pivot a little bit and talk about the show where did this idea for waiting for impact come from uh waiting for impact is is the story of a a boy band called Sudden Impact who were featured in the video for Motown Philly by Boys to Men Boys to Men now is the the top selling R&B group of all time but at the time they were one of the acts that a guy named Michael Bivens who was in double the Devote and new addition he got a development deal with Motown and he signed three artists right away which were Boys to Men who blew up uh another bad creation who were like I think there were seven of them they were like kids kids like 12 and under they had a couple top 10 songs and then the third act was this boy band son impact and they're featured in in this video for like literally less than three seconds and there it's a it's a it's a it's a seamless black background they are they surround Michael Bivens in like a semi circle and their name is in lights above them and and they point at the camera it's like it's this very like this very bold like yep Sudden Impact just get ready and and I was ready and and this this was like right at my b girl time in history where I was you know music video was that was my window into the land of Oz kind of and and and I was super depressed so it's been a lot of time from the TV and I remember seeing that video a million times and in in the back of my head being like I wonder when the sudden impact that was gonna come out because surely they're not just gonna put them in the video and then not release anything but they never released anything and it was something that was just you know it existed kind of in in the back of my mind and and then I moved to Los Angeles and I started doing a lot of improv and and one of my one of my good friends from those days his name is Scott Gimpo who has gone on to become the showrunner for the walking dead and he and I are both nerds in this way and I don't know how Sudden Impact came up but it did and we were like the bands reunited was on VH1 at the time and I'm like we should do an episode of bands reunited but about Sudden Impact and just get them back together and instead of doing a song like they do on band reunited there wasn't a song so we'll just have them points like we'll stand there and they'll do a semi-circle at a certain point and that was kind of our little dumb joke and but it remained in the back of my mind and then you know as I said I started like writing became more of my career and I got a job at Esquire and I did this book and I this idea which I really wanted to flesh out wasn't a book and it wasn't a magazine piece but as as like after cereal happened and people developed this appetite for kind of investigative shows I thought maybe this is it like a true crime show about a disappearance but it's like nobody died and nobody murdered anybody but there's probably some kind of music industry business trickery or or mishaps or whatever and there's also there's the business side of it and there's that what actually happened to these guys but there's also a human interest piece to it which is about like these guys didn't didn't blow up and I don't know what did happen to them and they got this huge introduction to the world and then nothing had happened and you have and that happened so much there are so many things that you think are gonna explode and they don't and then you have to keep living so like how do you do that it happened to me a bunch it happened to people I know a bunch and so I thought like all right this is there's interest you know there's there's something that I really can like simply teeth into in this story and Karen Kilgarath and Georgia Hardstar could just started exactly right which is their kind of podcast indelabel and I they're friends of mine and and we went to the 101 cafe and had coffee and I pushed them the idea and they were like yes do it do it for us and and so I did yeah it's a fantastic piece the the thanks the pop culture side of it and the music side of it to me is the frosting but you're absolutely right like the the real core is this their stories there of just these near misses just people who were just right on the cusp of superstardom yeah and it never really formalized and and just like you I mean that was the idea for this show was what do you do with that like where do you go if you're Hayden and you you tell all your friends that you're gonna blow up as the world's next Elvis and then you're selling cars a couple of years later you know how do you reconcile that in your own soul and the thing that's so resonated with me is these people weren't bitter at all like they still spoke so positively about the opportunity that they got not with this like I'm more way more petty than that I would be angry you know Michael Bivens gave me a shot but then his record label evaporated you know like kind of the classic old athlete if I hadn't torn my knee up I would have made it to you know they always have this tale of whoa and that wasn't it at all all of these people just said this was a springboard that I used to do other things right that was remarkable did you expect that I I really did not know what to expect and and I was I was a little worried that I might run into what you just described like people who are who just like don't want to talk about it you know I I heard that name in 20 years slam the door there were no doors it was all over so but like I was worried that I that I might hit some resistance and I really didn't and what yeah what I found is is what you described where people just said to themselves this thing didn't happen and my choices are to live or die like I can either put one foot in front of the other and just keep moving or I can be resentful and angry and let it eventually kill me and I think the human drive is to live you know yeah yeah I don't know I I I I love talking to that guy to hate and I love talking to the the guys from sudden impact because they they do have that kind of resilient spirit but they also know deep down are like you know we got to like we met you know all thoughts are a barrel at a party or whatever like it's they they got to L.A. they got to come to L.A. and like record stuff and maybe it never came out but like they but they also like while their friends were you know doing whatever they were doing they were like you know we had a few years in L.A. they're like really almost make our dreams come true and that's still that's still fun they still have stories they can tell the parties and stuff you know you mentioned Scott Gimple and he's quoted in the first episode as well as circle back to it toward the end of the last one where he says I'm still holding onto that hope that's like the hope I had back in 91 I can't wait to see this yeah because I don't like endings and I'm like that that is the core of what I'm trying to do with with this show is there may be endings very public sometimes I mean you were on television and here's the winner Jesse that wasn't you but that wasn't the ending to take it to a marathon or a trass I was just a mile marker on your journey and let you know that well I didn't necessarily go the way I wanted it to but it doesn't mean I have to stop the race right now yeah so what for you remains undone what what ending is not there for you oh wow I mean you know I'm really glad that we're having this conversation right now because I am blocked as hell like I you know I've I regularly get at a square magazine I have to radio a column in the print edition and and I'm like I you know the the topic for the the latest column is like something that I know extremely well and I can't get it out the life of me and that never stops I've never gotten to a point where writing isn't really hard work and where I don't have to face the idea that I don't know what I'm doing or or that I don't have to think well this is this is the one where they find out that I'm actually like I'm I've been in disguise this whole time I've been an imposter this whole time the imposter syndrome is like the oldest story in the book but it's like I've got it and a lot of people have it and if you do have it it doesn't go away you still have to have that conversation with yourself every time so I am I incredibly grateful to you for saying what you just said which is that these things are not endings they are my own markers on a larger race on larger road trip whatever and I I know that I will get through it I know that I have gotten through it 100% of the time that I felt like I couldn't do it I was wrong and so yeah I don't I don't know that like there is an undoing of that work I don't know that there that that's a thing that I can never defeat but it's a thing that I can learn to live with and know that I can overcome when I when happens because it will happen again so there's I would say that like defeating that inner voice would be the work that I would like to do but I can't I just have to I just have to learn how to outsmart it but the work the work that's undone is is I'm like I am like restless and I have I have a severe case of ADHD and and I have a tendency to want to do everything and so I do everything and I I'm doing a little bit of stuff here and I'm kind of on the radio here and I'm like I write a little bit of freelance stuff over here and then I have that's why I think here and I do the podcast here and there and everywhere the what I think the work is now is to synthesize that and and build like the production entity that I would like to see in the world and that requires you know discipline and business knowledge and all kinds of things that I don't really have but that I can either get or borrow from people so that is the work of this year really is to kind of build and grow that business and get the stuff that I want made made and then hopefully grow enough that I can help other people get their stuff made thereby live a comfortable middle class existence in Los Angeles exactly that's that's the goal for all that's right and I hope so yeah well Dave this has been fantastic how can listeners connect with you or where can I send them so that they can get involved in the day of homes cinematic universe get into get into the day of homes business I'm on Twitter and Instagram at Dave Holmes you know Twitter is disintegrating before our eyes but I still can't quit it so for the time being I'm still there I believe I'm Dave Holmes on post as well I don't even know where to send you on mastodon but uh but yeah at Dave Holmes tends to go to to me and uh yeah I'll keep you I'll keep you abreast of everything that is happening there well I have big dreams for this but I will say you will want now and forever hold the distinction of being my first guest that has the blue check by your name uh oh boy and and I'm happy to say I did not spend eight dollars there you go I knew somebody is actually out in the early days I I knew someone at Twitter and and I was like yeah it would be nice man so you could hook it up well Dave thank you so much you've been an inspiration to me and uh I continue to follow your work all the time thank you Toby that means the world and I am really excited about what you're making I've had so much fun listening to it you you've gotten great stories out of great people who I would not otherwise have have known about and uh and I think you're doing you're doing something great so don't stop doing it it takes you know it takes discipline and it takes curiosity and you know it takes just like the will to uh to put something into the world that doesn't exist you know and that's what you're doing so awesome well thanks again Dave I really really appreciate it thank you Toby market down my friends for all the griping and complaining about social media destroying the fabric of society and in this new age of new media channels with unprecedented access to putting new things out in the world all forever pointed this experience as exhibit a in my life that good can and does come from people from all walks of life using the tools that we have today that didn't even exist the generation ago to encourage and inspire one another on this trip called life you know there was a time and the not so distant past or the orbit of someone like Dave Holmes would never have overlapped with my own what's more at same time likely wouldn't have had a place for the story he so expertly weaved about a group of five young men from Virginia who miraculously found their way into the biggest smash hit video of 1991 only to dissolve and to obscurity just like that band-side impact and author and host to the show about them beneath the surface of what some would call failure is a story of resilience and redemption Dave Holmes has found a way to move beyond temporary setbacks to be successful and I will never forget the time he was willing to not just inspire a nameless faceless fan like me for a far but also to come on my show and do it in person so Dave if you're listening I'm giving you that steely sudden impact point of approval right now becoming undone is a nitri-high creative production written and produced by me Toby Brooks if you or someone you know has a story of resilience and victory to share for becoming undone contact me at undonepodcast.com follow the show on Facebook Instagram and LinkedIn at becoming undone pod and follow me at the wj books listen subscribe and leave us a review at Apple Podcasts Spotify Stitcher or wherever you get your podcasts until next time everybody keep getting better