Even More Than This
Even More Than This
Even More Than This Ep. 5 / Charlotte
When is it okay to call someone a slut? Is it ever? What about if it’s a joke? Have you thought about it?
Follow Kien-Ling and Anika as they explore the saucy content within episode 5 of More The This. Covering a range of topics spanning from nude photo sharing to stresses relating to differences in home-lives and finishing off strong with an answer from a range of voices to the question opening this descriptor!
The tea is spilt in this podcast episode… Do yourself a favour and hit play!
Content warning: This episode explores themes such as the non-consensual sharing of nudes, misogyny, and physical and emotional violence in the home.
This podcast is created by the ACTF in collaboration with Queer Town. Hosted and written by Anika and Kien-Ling. Produced and edited by Bridget Hanna, ACTF and Archie Beetle, Queer Town. Mixed by Phil Threlfall, The Base. You can watch More Than This on Paramount +. Keep up to date with Even More Than This via the ACTF Instagram.
0:00 ANIKA We acknowledge the custodians of place, the traditional owners of our lands, waters and skies, wherever you are in this moment.
We created this podcast here on the lands of the Wurundjeri people of the Eastern Kulin Nation and pay our respects to the Elders and Culture Leaders past, present, and future.
0:20 LING Content warning. This is a quick heads up that this episode explores themes such as the non consensual sharing of nudes, misogyny and physical and emotional violence in the home.
0:30 [Theme Music]
0:49 ANIKA Hello, and welcome to the show Even More Than This. My name is Anika and my pronouns are She/Her and I’m also joined by my co-host Ling
0:56 LING Hey everyone, my name is Ling, my pronouns are She/They and in this podcast, we’re just going to be exploring episode five of the show, titled Charlotte. And along the way we’re just going to be again, piecing together what does it mean to be an adolescent today. Yeah, so just before we kick off the whole episode, we’re just gonna give you all a little introduction into Episode Five.
So Charlotte confronts Legs for posting her nudes without her consent, which makes Legs realise that her actions were wrong. Jamie and Zali come to Charlotte’s side in the midst of all this chaos, and on the flip side, Charlotte’s home life is also in pieces when she comes home to find that her dad has actually stolen her hard earned money for gambling and alcohol. And even after all that madness, she runs into an older man, Carlisle at a train station.
1:40 ANIKA And now we’re gonna get into a little bit of a scene between Charlotte and Legs. It’s a bit explosive, so let’s get straight into it.
1:49 [Clip from More Than This]
Charlotte Okay, I’m only gonna say this one more time, and then I’m leaving it alone.
I want nothing to do with you. I want nothing to do with Leon. I don’t want to steal him. I’m not trying to fuck him, and I’m not trying to make you jealous.
But because you are so fucking insecure that you can’t comprehend that not everything is about you. Now everyone has seen my naked body without my consent just so you could feel a sliver of self worth!
Mr. E Charlotte!
Charlotte Just a minute Sir. Do you know what you’ve done? I hope you’re happy, you fucking bitch!
2:22 ANIKA Mic drop. Boom.
2:24 LING That was a lot. Apologies to our listeners, might’ve screamed into your ears a little bit just then. Yeah, but just unpack the situation. So basically what happened is that Charlotte had just had enough of all the peer pressures and tormenting behind her back and, you know, really rightfully so stands up to Legs in class. Which honestly, the acting everything was great. If I was Legs, I would be shaking. I would be crying. Honestly, I think Charlotte’s words were super spot on here because she very clearly highlighted that what Legs did was wrong, and the internalised misogyny she felt that was going on between them. Because in my observation, I find that the reason that Legs spread the nudes in the first place was because she was insecure that Leon still had a thing for Charlotte. And even though, like, that is not justified, we do have to look at it from both sides I feel. And obviously it was wrong for Legs to do that. Not defending her. But I think the only sympathy we can feel here is that Leon who is you know, a man who’s supposed to be committed to her loyal to her is potentially in love with somebody else, and not even just somebody else. It’s like literally his ex. And yeah, yeah. And it really hurts to see someone that you love, you know, fall in love with somebody else and you know, makes you feel like you’re not good enough. So you kind of just do anything to take them down. And to see everyone shame somebody that you hate, makes you feel better about yourself so I can see where she’s coming from. But I think the way she went about it was obviously really wrong. So what do you think about this whole internalised misogyny thing?
3:57 ANIKA I think it’s definitely prevalent within this show, and I think it definitely happens in real life. And that whole concept like you touched on, like women trying to tear women down for the attention of men. And like behaviour in that kind of light, it definitely feeds into that concept of internalised misogyny.
And, I think I’m so proud of Charlotte, be fair, like, Yeah, I’m very proud of her for standing up for herself because I believe that, you know, people who do bad things like need to be pulled out, like called out and need to be pulled up for their bad behaviour, and I think Legs definitely needed to be called out in a way that was quite severe. Like we heard, totally, like we heard from Charlotte, and I believe that what she said was all very validating. Ling, What do you think?
4:38 LING Yeah, I think it reminds me of, I don’t know if you remember this, this whole trope of like, Oh, I’m not like other girls. Do you remember this? (ANIKA Yeah.) Yeah, because I think that’s a really good example of how internalised misogyny, especially in this society can be so like invisibly intertwined. Because it took me years to realise like actually how bad it was, because it wasn’t like, ’cause this is a very big example of internalised misogyny, but if you go into the little things, it’s more of like, being feminine is like, oh, being basic and being like everyone else was seen as socially undesirable. And so it was like, I don’t want to wear pink. You know, I want to wear pants. I want to do sports. I’m not like feminine like other girls. So yeah. Have you had that experience?
5:23 ANIKA Yeah totally. I see what you’re saying. And I think like tropes like this come out on social media as well, especially like platforms like Tik Tok, and those kinds of things are different trends which I feel reinforce that which is really interesting, because there’s that crossover between the show and what happens in real life. They’ve done it again. (Laughs) But I think what’s really important to note is the whole concept of like, empowered women, empower women, you know what I mean? So obviously, Legs was not feeling super empowered, because of like this kind of patriarchal society that we live in, I believe, and that she was not kind of getting that attention that she required from like the men in her life which fair enough, like, that is a really bad situation when your boyfriend is still in love with his ex girlfriend like, yeah, that’s not a vibe.
6:07 LING I actually think that’s a really good point, because I feel like if Legs had a better support system, this just would not have happened.
6:14 ANIKA Yeah. If she was feeling supported by her boyfriend she wouldn’t have felt the need to share Charlottes nudes around, period.
6:20 LING Exactly. So even though internalised misogyny is like largely perpetuated by women, I think it’s not like an inherently social female problem, because I think it’s rooted in the consequences of the patriarchy, and you know, just like the need to suit a man’s desires and male validation, things like that. I think it’s important to highlight that actions that further internalised misogyny must be called out, but it should not be blamed on the individual woman because it’s not an individual problem.
6:49 ANIKA I agree. And I think this kind of behaviour is punctuated by Leon in that he calls Legs crazy. He calls Legs insane. Like, I have a really strong passion for when people call other people, not a passion for it, but against it. I don’t agree with it, because it’s like, okay, you’re insane for what, emoting? For showing your emotions, for being passionate about something or about a person or about a situation, I just, I don’t think that’s right, in my opinion. And I think like when you call somebody a slut, when you use like the S word, I don’t believe like, it’s, I don’t believe it’s fair when people do that, because it’s like, you boil somebody down to just that character trait. It’s like you disregard everything else that that person is. And it once again reinforces that whole idea of internalised misogyny. And that whole idea of being in a man’s world, potentially, like because historically, it has, we have lived in a very patriarchal society. And obviously over time, you know, progression, (LING things change) things change, and things like society evolves, however, we’re still in that process of evolving.
7:53 LING Yeah, that is so true. I actually have, not an opposing view about the word, but just like a different view. Because I know that slurs can be reclaimed in like, kind of more empowering way. Yeah. So I feel like that’s what I feel about this word. Because if ever someone called me that in a derogatory way, I’ll just be like, you know, whatever. You want to call me that, sure. Whatever. Obviously, I know it’s misogynistic. But it’s I feel like we can kind of reclaim it, depending on the context. So clearly, you can tell when it’s bad, but I think we can reclaim it in like a slay way. You know, and like Girl-Boss, you know.
8:34 ANIKA Yeah I agree. I feel like that’s happening more and more frequently now where people are like taking words that were derogatory and kind of like reinventing them almost in a way that like, as you said, allows them to reclaim ownership of that word.
8:48 LING Yeah, because it feels like empowering, you know, like, yes.
8:51 ANIKA However, I think in the context of like More Than This, and especially in this episode, we commonly see Charlotte being like associated with the term slut, and we don’t see similar name calling, if you will, being done to Leon. So it shows like that kind of sense of double standards within the show, and like more broadly.
9:06 LING Yeah, yeah I definitely think so. I think that’s actually very common in real life, like in today’s society as well. Because the word slut has been historically female associated, like you said.
So after the whole showdown, Leon and Legs have a discussion about it, and it’s clear that Leon’s really mad at her. So let’s have a listen to that.
9:29 [Clip from More Than This]
Legs I didn’t print those photos.
Leon Oh, no. Just the you broke into my phone and sent the photos.
Legs Why do you still have them? Do you look at them? Do you get off on that?
Leon Legs stop. You sound insane!
Legs I’m insane? You watch her all night. You have her nudes on your phone, and you’re calling me insane for caring what my fucking boyfriend is doing?
Leon Look I get you mad at me, yeah. But why did you have to do this to her?
Legs I don’t know.
What if she reports me to the police?
Leon She probably will. They’ve been sent to everyone and it’s even ended up on sites and shit.
Legs I didn’t mean for it to get this far. Everyone knows it was me, I’m fucked.
What do we do?
Leon You should talk to her.
Legs You talk to her!
Leon She won’t talk to me
Legs Well shit Leon. I’m scared. What am I meant to do?
10:21 LING What really shocked me about that scene was the conclusion of it. Because after that whole fight, they still stayed together. And I don’t think it’s because they particularly liked each other. But it was more that they knew they were both to blame. Like they were both in the fault and no one else is going to be on your side. So I think they kind of found solace in each other because hitting rock bottom with somebody else is better than being there alone.
10:47 ANIKA Yes, Ling I totally agree. And I think that this scene definitely proved a few things. Firstly, that they obviously confided in one another because they were going through similar experiences. Secondly, Leon is a girlfriend boy. And I feel as though this scene really kind of coined that ideology. And if you don’t know what a girl, a girlfriend, boy is. It is basically a boy who always feels as though they need to have a girlfriend.
11:10 LING Right? Yeah, I see that a lot actually.
11:12 ANIKA And I feel, I know lots of people who girlfriend boys. I feel like if you don’t know, any girlfriend, boys, it’s probably you. Just putting it out there. But yeah, I feel like it definitely showed that and I think the third thing that this scene definitely proved as well was that, to me, it seemed as though Leon was actually looking out for Charlotte like, he, he showed that he cared for Charlotte and was like, oh,..
11:32 LING Yeah, because you could tell that like, his concern was not mainly for himself. You felt like it was like 5% for Legs. He was not very concerned about Legs if I’m gonna be honest. But yeah, a lot of it you could tell it was like genuinely for Charlotte.
11:49 ANIKA I agree. And then the response from Legs was as though she only really cared about the impact of her actions on herself and how that would impact her. And I found that really confronting, in a way. I’m really like, Oh, wow. Like, as if you couldn’t think about how, the impact that this has had on Charlotte.
12:04 LING Exactly. Because she’s kind of like the main person involved with this. But with Leon, you could genuinely tell that he cared. And I think there’s a really important scene that portrays this with Leon and Mr. E, where Mr. E was giving him advice about what to do. And I think what he said was actually super helpful because it was his attitude towards the whole thing. He wasn’t forgiving, but he wasn’t super harsh, either. And he was understanding of the situation but not excusing his actions. And I think that’s like the perfect way to go about the situation. And I remember something he said that was really impactful. Like when I watched it was whether you share the images or not they were still on your phone, which I think is so true, because you can remember like he was looking through those photos, like in episode one, which is like at way beginning of the whole thing. Yeah. Which I think is a really valid point. And it brings up a good question. Should it be mutually understood that when a couple breaks up, you should immediately delete their nudes off your phone? What do you think?
13:04 ANIKA I think so. (LING Yeah) Definitely. It’s like you’re no longer engaging in that relationship in that kind of intimate way. There shouldn’t be a reason for you to then have those like images on your phone. And I think also if you translate it from like a digital sense to a real life sense. It’s like, you’re not seeing that person in that way anymore. And therefore, you shouldn’t have that right to see them in a digital space in that way anymore.
13:28 LING That is so true, I never thought about that. Such a good point.
13:31 ANIKA Yeah. Because it’s interesting, because I feel like sometimes there’s a disconnect between what happens digitally and in real life. But if you translate it over, it’s like
13:37 LING It’s the same thing, essentially. Yeah, there’s still maybe like this element of trust, but you’re no longer in each other’s lives that way.
13:45 ANIKA I agree. And I think that the scene between Mr. E and Leon, was actually really important because I think if anything in a broader context, it actually shows the importance of getting multiple perspectives on an issue and getting perspectives from people who are your age, yeah, sure, definitely. I think when you introduce a fresh perspective, upon a situation, it really allows you to kind of contextualise the situation. And it allows somebody else to be like, this is wrong. And this is right. This is what you should do. And this is how you should go about, I guess this situation, essentially.
14:14 LING Yeah, and I think the whole dynamic of Leon and Mr. E, you know, as Mr. E kind of as a parental figure. I think that really parallels with the next scene, which is Charlotte’s home and school life.
So Charlotte school and home life are very, very vastly different, but still unfairly difficult. So let’s have a listen to that.
14:34 [Clip from More Than This]
Charlotte’s Dad Why you home so late?
Charlotte I had work.
Charlotte’s Dad Since when did you think it was all right to just come and go as you please and say I had work.
Charlotte Since the hot water stopped working
Charlotte’s Dad Look, I don’t think it’s safe for you to be coming home at this time.
Charlotte I have been coming home at this time on a Thursday for about three weeks now.
Charlotte’s Dad No you haven’t.
Charlotte Yes, I have.
Charlotte’s Dad Well, I don’t know if I’m alright with that.
Charlotte We don’t really have another option.
Charlotte’s Dad Hey, show me some respect.
Charlotte Get a job then dad.
Charlotte’s Dad I’m trying. It’s not easy as bloody easy as you make out, You think it’s all so simple..
Charlotte It is simple. I’m doing it because you’re not..
Charlotte’s Dad Shut up! Just shut up. You have no idea what you’re talking about. You think you’re so clever. It’s bloody hard out there. You… you have no idea.
Charlotte Ok, ok I’m sorry. You’re going to get a job, yeah?
15:23 LING So as you can see, Charlotte comes home into an even worse situation, where she’s just had to buy groceries, do the cooking, the cleaning. She’s come from school come from work, and she’s just continuously violated in terms of privacy. Her dad’s actually taking her money, which she shouldn’t even have to make in the first place. And it’s clear that she’s technically the adult at home. And I find this household dynamic so reversed, because it’s almost like she’s the parent because she cooks she cleans, she makes money and she takes care of both of them. But then Charlotte’s dad still has that like brute force of paternity because he’s violent, and he only cares about being her dad when he wants to enforce power in the house because he doesn’t have control essentially over anything else. He does not have control in his life and his career and he can only kind of feel that power when it comes to his daughter. And what I found very interesting about the scene was that when they had a fight, Charlotte immediately stopped arguing like she stopped raising her voice when he started getting violent and I thought that was very sad, but also very real. And it shows that she’s still vulnerable in the house despite everything she does for him. And she’s literally babying him just because he gets violent and she tells him like, oh, you should get some sleep and things like that. Which I think represents how like strange and paradoxical this dynamic is. What do you think?
16:46 ANIKA I think paradoxical is definitely the word. We see Charlotte being an image of a powerful woman when she’s at school. She stands up for herself, she does her own thing. And then as soon as she gets home, she’s obviously still being that powerful woman. However, under the influence of her dad, she kind of crumbles a little bit. Do you see that?
17:02 LING Yeah. yeah. It’s really sad actually to watch and to see like when she’s cleaning the kitchen and she starts crying, but it’s a really quiet cry. And just like such a raw scene, to be honest.
17:14 ANIKA And I think there’s something to be said about feeling like a child in the presence of your parents.
17:19 LING Yeah, I feel that.
17:20 ANIKA I definitely feel that I noticed that in my day to day life, and I’ve had conversations with other people who also recognise that as well. I think something else to note as well within the scene is just the different priorities that different characters have. And that funnels back down to what they’re experiencing in their home life. We see distinct parallels between Charlotte’s home life and Leon’s home life, especially around the kind of dinner table breakfast table, that kind of, those kinds of scenes. And I think it’s really interesting in that Charlotte does not have time to put up with like high school drama quote, unquote. (LING Yeah, totally) She’s out here working, she’s out here trying to survive make money provide for the family provide for her Dad, look after her dad, look after herself as well. Or as we see distinct contrast between Leon’s home life, where his mom’s making like breakfast for him. He’s taking his sister’s like, sandwich and little things like that. He’s priorities and not in trying to keep the family going and trying to keep every like, food on the table, and all those kinds of things and he therefore maybe has a little bit more space for high school drama.
18:19 LING Yeah, I think it’s a privilege of time. How time can be you know, socially patterned. Yeah, like you said, Charlotte’s, Charlotte doesn’t have time to deal with other things, even like time to find herself. Whereas Leon has time to think about these things. Yeah, and things like that.
18:33 ANIKA I think what stood out to me ultimately, in this episode was the way that what was happening at school translated into each character’s home life, and how you know, for Charlotte, what was happening at school with the whole like, nude photo sharing situation, just kind of mounted on top of all these other concerns and worries or responsibilities that she had, whereas for some of the other characters, like Leon, who we see a bit more explicitly throughout the course of this scene, it wasn’t… There weren’t as many responsibilities in his home life that he had to be conscious of.
19:04 LING Yeah, and I think this kind of wrapped up the whole episode, and it kind of exploded when Charlotte runs away from home and then she meets this older man called Carlisle at a train station. And yeah, it just really shows that in that moment, she needed that validation and she needed to feel good about herself, and well I guess she found it in an older man at a train station, which we will unpack next episode.
19:29 ANIKA But for now. We’re gonna tap it back to the beginning of our conversation where we chatted around the term slut, and we asked some people in what context they thought it was okay to use it.
19:42 [Background Music]
Participant 1 So, I love this question can I just say. For me, the word slut really is a word that I think has been reclaimed by a lot of people, specifically, women of all identifications, which it has been associated with for centuries. I think slut is a word that is actually okay to use, particularly if you’re empowering yourself by reclaiming that word.
Participant 2 I wouldn’t really use it as often. But there’s certain people that will probably use it more, right? Because there’s some, some queens out there, that would that take it as a compliment. Right? It just depends how you use it. Some people use as jokes. I think it’s okay if you use it in a joke, but once you start repeating yourself, being a bit more aggressive each time it’s like, Okay, that’s enough, no more.
Participant 3 It doesn’t have the nicest connotation, but I just don’t feel the need to talk about other people, in that light, especially. So I think it’s unnecessary. Personally, I, person wouldn’t like to be called that. And I just don’t call other people that because I just don’t feel the need too. Because why would you comment on someone else’s life?
Participant 4 In my opinion, I would never encourage someone to use the word slut. And I think it’s just because a word has connotations of just double standards and sexism, because, I mean, the most common example is, if a guy sleeps with multiple women, he’s praised for it, but if a woman does the same thing with guys she’s a slut. And I think that encouraging that mentality doesn’t really help anyone. It’s not constructive in any way, because you’re not really, you’re not really helping anybody. You’re just trying to break them down.
Participant 5 In my humble opinion, it is okay to use it, I think, in reference to yourself, maybe when you’re having a little bit of a laugh, you’re like, ready to get a bit slutty tonight. But also you have to be careful with that as well because I think that some women will think of themselves as like, Oh, I’m a slut and like, because the patriarchy wants us all to just be pure, white, virgin women who do not have a lot of sex because women don’t like sex, right? So yeah, I think when it comes to that, like, be kind, it’s if it’s spoken to yourself with kindness. If it’s unkind, do not say it to yourself.
Participant 6 I wouldn’t say there is a particular time or when it is okay to use this word, especially if a large group of people could take such a strong offence to it. Then it is quite unnecessary to try and justify when it is okay to use it.
Participant 7 I mean, I guess it’s okay if it’s used in the context of friendship, like calling your friend a slut and they know you’re joking, but honestly, that’s not something I see myself saying because it seems unnecessarily aggressive and also kind of cringe, because I think it’s kind of overused in media as well.
Participant 8 I think the word slut is very complex, and maybe I’m not the best person to ask you about that. Because I don’t get called that or, you know, I’m not a female and most of the time, it’s females that are referred to in that way. I don’t think there’s many times when it’s okay to call someone a slut or use that word. But I guess sometimes we all tend to do it, you know, I’m a slut for this or I’m a slut for that. And that sort of normalises it, but at the same time, I don’t think there’s many times when you should be using that word, particularly not to refer to, you know, a female or someone who goes through slut shaming.
23:42 ANIKA A big thank you to everyone who contributed to that some really interesting responses in that section. And I guess we’ve come to the end of our show today. And with every episode, we try to unpack what it means to be an adolescent in today’s day and age. And I think in today’s show there’s lots to be taken out from it. I think one of the things that we learned was that it’s really important to have conversations around nudes and nude photo sharing, and what happens when a relationship ends.
24:04 LING And yeah, just relating to that I think it’s really important to reflect on your actions and how they can impact somebody else for example, in this episode with Legs, making that like quick snap decision on sharing Charlotte’s nudes without thinking of you know, the big picture, and how that led to Charlotte being called a slut a lot. And you know, how there’s so many gender terms that lead to these double standards. And I think my main takeaway from this episode was that it’s really about unlearning this gendered language that is so you know, cemented in our society. And yeah, thank you everyone for listening again, and we will see you next episode.
24:40 [Theme Music]
25:12 LING If any of the content in this episode raises any issues for you, Kids Helpline’s qualified counsellors are available via web chat, phone or email anytime and for any reason. Kids Helpline is Australia’s only free, even from a mobile, confidential 24/7 online and phone counselling service for young people aged 5 to 25. Visit www.kidshelpline.com.au or call one 1800 55 1800.
25:39 End