The Chronicles of the Last Jewish gangster Myron Sugerman

From Meyer to Myron ( Meyer Lansky to Myron Sugerman) 
 Larry Levine ( The world doesn't need another podcast, PODCAST)  interviews Myron Sugerman about the Jewish "Kosher Nostra." 
The Jewish MOB from an INSIDER. 
The battle between Jewish gangsters and the American Nazi party, "the Minuteman" in Newark in the 1930s
Sugerman operated in over 70 countries and was the KING of gambling machines. 
The relationship between the Italian Mafia and the Jewish MOB. 
Myron wrote the book The Chronicles of the Last Jewish Gangster. 

He is the subject of an AMAZON Prime documentary 
Last Man Standing: The Chronicles of Myron Sugerman. 
The true crime life story of Myron Superman, second generation gangsters to Barney Sugerman, member of the national syndicate and partner of Meyer Lansky ( Amazon) 

Episode 1 

The World doesn't need another podcast, PODCAST.
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Larry M Levine




Larry has written for the Jerusalem Post, The Times of Israel, and many others. Levine grew up on Long Island, now in Columbus Ohio is a businessman, writer, comedian, and family man.

www.larrymlevine.com

Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):

Hi, this is Larry Levine and welcome to the World. Doesn't Need Another Podcast. Podcast. I'm here today with Myron Sugarman, who has written the book, the Chronicles of the Last Jewish Gangster, from Meyer to Myron Meyer, being Meyer Lansky to Myron Sugarman. There have been lots of movies that I'm, I'm a big fan of, of course, the Godfather and Sopranos and Goodfellas. But this book is about the kosher Nostra, the Jewish gangsters of the period. It's an incredible book. I highly recommend. It's moving, insightful and exciting, and it takes you back to a time that, uh, they're gonna be studying for generations to come. Myron, as I was mentioning, I got to you through a series of letters and posts that I don't know how I got to them, but I guess like minds think alike cuz we're, we're all proud Jews and concerned about our country. So we're gonna first talk about the book and then I'm gonna talk about today's environment out there and the things that, uh, we can do as proud Jews to stop the anti-Semitism. Let's talk about, uh, first how you got into the business, which was gaming and gambling machines and pinball. And pinball was outlawed in New York until 1973, <laugh>,

Speaker 2 (01:07):

1977.

Speaker 1 (01:08):

1977. That's even worse cuz I had moved from New York in 75. I always thought pinball. I never really looked at as a gambling machine. Uh, your father was in the business. His name was Suge. Why don't you tell us a little bit about him first and we'll go

Speaker 2 (01:20):

On my, so Larry, I was born in 1938. My father was born in 1900. So I'm second generation, right? And the kids, my my kids also were born in Newark, but all born at the Beth Israel Hospital. My father was part of the Newark Jewish mob. There were two bosses. There was Abna Longy Zwillman and Joe Doc stracher your audience, unless they're from Jersey, they would never have heard of these people. However, the fact that they never heard of them, it doesn't take away from them that they had worldwide, nationwide, and worldwide.

Speaker 1 (01:51):

Well, people that you don't think of Newark, you know, I think of Newark in today. It's not the same place, obviously. And when I grew up as a Long Island there, we didn't, we just didn't go to Newark. But that was a, that was a powerhouse part of the state.

Speaker 2 (02:03):

It was a Newark West in the thirties was the battleground between the Jews and the Germans. Let me give you a little history. Abner Longy Zwillman was known as the Al Capone of New Jersey. Uh, the vast majority of the alcohol that brought into the state and distributed throughout the entire United States came through Jersey through the Port of Newark, Perth Amboy and other port on the Atlantic Coast. Under his jurisdiction, uh, doc Stacher was his equal part. Abner's Longy Wilman and Doc Stacher were close, intimate associates of Meyer Lansky and Benny Siegel Meyer Lansky and Benny Siegel came frequently to Newark and stayed at the old Hotel Riviera. They consulted with Longy and with doc and got the name from the, the Yiddish word, longer meaning the tall one, because he was the protector of the ghetto of Newark. Right. And they, they rose to the heights of, uh, during prohibition and all the Jews answered to the, to Longie doc. Uh, the same way that New York Meyer and, and, uh, Benny Siegel were the actual respected members of the, of the mob together with Lepke Buchalter with Jake Gurah Shapiro, waxy Gordon, um, uh, Schultz and others, but principally the, the, the real bosses, uh, if you could describe it in that manner, because we were not structured the way that the Italians

Speaker 1 (03:33):

Were. I was gonna ask you that. So there wasn't really the same kind of structure. There wasn't, uh, you,

Speaker 2 (03:37):

They, they were

Speaker 1 (03:38):

Cap power regimes and things like that. They were

Speaker 2 (03:40):

Respected re they were respected because of their physical power, their earning capacity, their leadership, and their brain. So people would answer to them because they, they were the ones that you recognized for their leadership. Right.

Speaker 1 (03:53):

They were the center of gravity in that area. So,

Speaker 2 (03:56):

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That's a good way of putting it. It was magnet, right. It was like a magnet. And so the people would, would answer to them because they had the connections, they had the, the political power, diplomatic power, the military power, so forth. Whereas with the Italians, it's the same thing. It was structured accordingly. But theirs was, theirs was mafia with Karen Forth traditions that they brought from Sicily and from Naples and Laban from BA and so forth. And so they had it structured, uh, incorporated into the modern coastal Nostra. There was cooperation between the Jews and the Italians. In fact, the murder Incorporator, which was Lefty Boulter and Jake Shapiro, they were partners with Albert Anastasia. Right.

Speaker 1 (04:42):

He's the one that was shot in the, uh, barber chair <laugh>.

Speaker 2 (04:46):

He was eventually killed sitting in the barber chair in the, in the Sheridan, I think it was the barbershop of the Shean Hotel. Right. Okay. And that was the takeover for the time that Halo Gambino surfaced, emerged as the boss of that family, of the right, of the Gambino family. And, and then of course, John Gotti.

Speaker 1 (05:05):

This wasn't always the case where the Jews and the Italians cooperated. I mean, this was more because of, what's his name, the head that puts us together with Meyer and with, um,

Speaker 2 (05:16):

No, the guy that put the, that really was the leader prior to Meyer Lansky was, uh, Arnold Rothstein. That's

Speaker 1 (05:23):

Right.

Speaker 2 (05:23):

Arnold Rothstein is the one that was the father of all of them, including the Italians.

Speaker 1 (05:29):

And, and I, what I read in the book is, is that you everybody thinks that he fixed the World Series when it was not him, according to your book.

Speaker 2 (05:37):

Well, no, they, they were, the question was who, who really did fix the, the World Series. Not expert on that. But it was suggested that he was together with a former prize fighter, Jewish prize fighter that was champion. The featherweight of light was a batel. And somehow or another, he got the reputation of having the 1919 Chicago Black Sox World Series.

Speaker 1 (06:00):

As I have read, lucky Luciano was friends with Meyer and with, uh, Benny Siegel. And he was more open to having Jews involved with the mafia that he, not all of them were. Maia was an anti-Semite. And the other, uh, one as well,

Speaker 2 (06:16):

It was Italians are never, they never make good anti-Semite. No, but they, he was syop phobic. They were, they were more distrustful of somebody that didn't come from specifically as close to the, to the village where they came from in Sicily. Right. They were territorial and in their mentality, if you came from, uh, cast mare, you were somebody that you knew. You knew the mother, you knew the father, the grandparents, the ancestry. And so you were more comfortable with that person. You weren't comfortable, too comfortable with somebody from Calabria or somebody from Lia or, or BA or because they just, they're different. So they were xenophobic. So the idea that you're gonna do business with, uh, people that Jews, and so the, the two bosses, Joe the boss, ma and uh, Salvato Marzano was basically xenophobic. I get it.

Speaker 1 (07:09):

That makes a big difference, really. I grew up in an Italian Jewish neighborhood, and to this day, um, you know, I <laugh> I still have friends from when I was two years old, that we talk three times a week. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (07:20):

Yeah. The same thing with me. We go out, um, at least once a month. At least once a month. But Italians and Jews at, uh, we liked each other. Years ago, when I first started to get involved in distribution and operating slot machines illegally, I met with the, with the, the strong element of the Genovese Prime family. He told me, he says, the only people that we really get along with very well are, are the Jews. It wasn't something that, it was new to me.

Speaker 1 (07:48):

No. And, and in fact, I tell, uh, my friends that the difference between Italians and Jews, Jews have guilt and Italians are guilty. So <laugh>,

Speaker 2 (08:00):

The elimination of Joe the boss, ma Salvador Marzano, was a necessary operation in order to, to, to bring on the new modern mosque. Right. Which would be an amalgamation of, uh, the, the, the mo the Koosa Nostra and the syndicate, which was the formation that was, uh, a combination of Jews and Italians. Right. Not the Koosa Nostra. Koosa. Nostra was Italian. Interesting. Lucky Luciano, uh, was given the opportunity to be the boss of all bosses. He turned it down. And he was the originator, the original godfather of the Genovese Prime family. He was Sicilian, but the Genovese Prime family was basically, uh, uh, non Sicilian. It was, uh, Frank Castello was Calab, and the subsequent members were NEA politics.

Speaker 1 (08:49):

So as, as an outsider, as a, as a Jewish mobster, and we, we, I really want to get into what it was, cuz I was shocked that, that that end of the business was so big, what you did. I know gambling was big, but I didn't really understand the nuts and bolts of it. But if you're an outsider, were you allowed to work with any of the families? Now, I know there was one point in the book where you were excluded from working with anybody else, but that was, um,

Speaker 2 (09:14):

That I wasn't excluded because I was Jewish. Oh, I was excluded. I was excluded because they didn't want me to create competition. Right. By being, by being, uh, a free agent, I was a subject of three different crews wanted to grab all of me. It told me. Right. But eventually it was, uh, I was rescued by history because my father was with Jerry Catina. Jerry Catina was the, um, I, how to explain it. He became, ultimately, after the death of Long East Wilman, he became the boss of the Jews. He bought into my father's business. He bought out doc stature in 1945 after the war. And when, uh, and Docs and Jerry Catina, after the death of belongings Roman in 1959, he emerged as the boss of the Jews. Wow. He became the, named as the acting boss of the Genovese Prime family. After Benny, you know, Genovese went to jail automatically, because my father was with Jerry Catina. That meant that I was Genovese and it resolved any, any dispute as to who I belonged to. I was an earner. So everybody wanted me.

Speaker 1 (10:17):

When you say you belong to them, really what that means is that you, you're taxed and you belong to them, and

Speaker 2 (10:24):

You paid for the privilege of belonging. Right. And that also means that you're fully protected.

Speaker 1 (10:28):

I was just gonna say, yeah, there are benefits to that. Right. So

Speaker 2 (10:32):

There is a benefit. There's a benefit. The benefit is you're protected.

Speaker 1 (10:35):

Are you protected mostly from the other families or anybody? From

Speaker 2 (10:39):

Everybody. So that means that, you know, if you had any kind of a dispute in the street, all you simply had to say is, gentlemen, before you [inaudible] I need to tell you, I got station identification. Now, you make a claim like that, you better have station identification.

Speaker 1 (10:56):

Right.

Speaker 2 (10:56):

Otherwise, if you falsified it and you've opened yourself to a hell of a problem. Right. But I was a good customer. I paid my insurance every week. Right. I was well taken care of. And there was a business relationship.

Speaker 1 (11:08):

So let's talk about the business a bit. It, it was, the business

Speaker 2 (11:11):

Is that you can't be out there and, and hope that you're gonna survive by answering between the raindrops until somebody's gonna come by. Uh, you're gonna have problems. And they were endless problems over territory, locations, disputes, personnel. So you needed to have that ability to be able to say, gentlemen, the water freezes. No water can flow because I have station identification. And if you need to, uh, find out who I am or where I'm situated, I'll be glad to give you some hints and you can go track it down yourself.

Speaker 1 (11:46):

Go check it out. You'll see,

Speaker 2 (11:48):

And you'll see that I am who I

Speaker 1 (11:49):

Am. Did they help in collections as well? Somebody didn't pay you? Was was that something where you would, did you use this sparingly or did you use this in situations like that as well?

Speaker 2 (11:58):

Uh, did they used, did I any, not really. Okay. I'm thinking, I'm thinking of, did I ever actually, I had my own people that did that

Speaker 1 (12:07):

Work. Okay.

Speaker 2 (12:08):

I had my own

Speaker 1 (12:09):

Were were they Jews as well or were they other that did that kind of work?

Speaker 2 (12:14):

A little of each. Okay.

Speaker 1 (12:15):

Okay.

Speaker 2 (12:15):

A little of each.

Speaker 1 (12:16):

Let's describe what the work was. You, you sold gambling machines and you Yeah.

Speaker 2 (12:21):

You sold gambling machines and locations. Bars and saloons and beauty polys. And anyways, were people social with laundromats. Right. B bodegas grocery store, you operated 50 50.

Speaker 1 (12:35):

Right. These were like, for example, in the B machines, when, when,

Speaker 2 (12:40):

Oh, there'd be video poker machines, slot machines, horse racing machines.

Speaker 1 (12:44):

That was later. But in, in originally I was, I was kind of shocked that a regular pinball machine was a gambling machine. No, no,

Speaker 2 (12:50):

No. Pinball machines were not used for gambling. Huh. There was a, there was a machine called a, a machine called B Bingo. That's the one Right. Gambling pinball machine. Right. That you, you specifically played for the purpose of achieving bingo, uh, getting so many balls in line. And, uh, the machines would, the location would pay out of Oh, I

Speaker 1 (13:09):

See.

Speaker 2 (13:10):

A according to, according to the amount of free, free games, they would fade. In other words, let's say for example, you were playing quarter a game and you won a thousand free plays. Well, you won $250.

Speaker 1 (13:21):

Oh, I get it.

Speaker 2 (13:22):

And you had meters on the machines location would pay it. Is,

Speaker 1 (13:25):

Is that why they were banned New York? I mean

Speaker 2 (13:28):

The, the Valley of Bingos is a post-war World War I in the, in the, in the time of the thirties, people gambled on how I score. Right. And, and LaGuardia was a, uh, I guess, you know, he was a, a teeth totaling Christian. He was a Methodist. But

Speaker 1 (13:44):

Wasn't he half Jewish too?

Speaker 2 (13:46):

Yeah. His, his father was Italian. The mother was

Speaker 1 (13:49):

Jewish. So technically he was Jewish. But he,

Speaker 2 (13:51):

He was an Episcopalian, I think.

Speaker 1 (13:52):

Huh? I never knew that.

Speaker 2 (13:54):

Uh, yeah. Yeah. And he was a, uh, you know, high moral against gambling in against everything. He, uh, 1941 had a major campaign of confiscating and destroying all the slot that belonged to Meyer Lansky and to Frank Castello.

Speaker 1 (14:09):

Right. That's when he smashed 'em and threw 'em into the East River or whatever it was. Right. I bet you wonder if they could find any of those today, <laugh>, if they're still there.

Speaker 2 (14:17):

I think the fishes, he

Speaker 1 (14:18):

Was sleeping with the fishes. Let's talk about, uh, long East's woman, because as it relates to now, there's some bad actors now, de Mateo and a few others that are really, uh, reminding people of the Nazis in the, in the thirties. And Longy formed a group called a Minuteman.

Speaker 2 (14:35):

Actual factors that he was the one that blessed Nno, who was a former price fighter. And a friend of my father's organized a movement called The Minute Men in Honor of the Minute Men of the American Revolutionary War, that when the Germans, uh, the American Nazi Party under Pritz Coon was organizing and promoting rallies and promoting national socialist philosophy in ideology. So the Jews, uh, organized for the purpose of crap out of the Nazis. Right. And this Newark, New Jersey was a major battleground because Newark told all the way back in time was an important city for the production of beer. Our water was so good at one time. We had 19 fact, uh, breweries in Newark. Oh, I didn't to the, the old time German. Huh?

Speaker 1 (15:20):

I knew New York water was very good.

Speaker 2 (15:22):

So what happened is that of course, it's the same water. So what happened is that in the, um, 1930s, you had a large immigration again coming from after the World War I of the, of Amer of Germans. And Fritz Kun, who was the, declared himself as the Hitler of the United States, he, he, he started to organize the brown shirt. Right. There was another movement in the United States called the Silver Shirt that was organized by William Kelly Dudley. And that was a Midwest operation. And Jews fought them in St. Paul, Minneapolis, Chicago, and New York City, Los Angeles. And basically was the mob and prize letters.

Speaker 1 (16:03):

Wow. And people don't realize also that, uh, the mob, uh, helped during World War ii, when they went to the docks to root out,

Speaker 2 (16:11):

I was known as Operation Under the World. Right. There's a book written about it, but I think the call, his name was Campbell. But, uh, that operation was where the Department of Navy, uh, sought out Meyer Lansky by reaching out to Meyer Moses Ov, who was the attorney for Lucky Luciano from Meyer Lansky, and sought out a meeting so that they could, um, seek the help of the longshoreman and, and to keep the guard against, uh, sabotage and espionage. Arch

Speaker 1 (16:43):

Question I've always wondered is who comes up with these names? The Dutchman. And was that a, was that a, from the journalist at the time that did it? I mean, I, you know, you always hear that this one was called Bugsy. He was called Bugsy, but he hated it. Well, who came up with that?

Speaker 2 (16:57):

We, we would come up with names. I, I I named everybody.

Speaker 1 (17:01):

So you were the one

Speaker 2 (17:02):

<laugh> Well, well everybody. You would get a name because of something about you. There's some characteristic. It was just easier to call you Louie kicker Fat Mikey or Pete Red

Speaker 1 (17:14):

Joey Glasses, Joey the nose, you know,

Speaker 2 (17:17):

Or, or out the lunch <laugh>, uh, soda pop. There was something, it was a lot easier to think of a guy along those lines than to think, oh, this name is, uh, Howard Goldfinger. Oh, he is Mohawk, his father was called, like, Mohawk son is called Mohawk

Speaker 1 (17:36):

N. Name some of the people. I mean, I, I've seen Joe Possum Long East Wilman, uh, putty. Is it putty or, or

Speaker 2 (17:42):

Putty? Putty.

Speaker 1 (17:44):

Putty. I was thinking putty, but then I was thinking Seinfeld putty. So

Speaker 2 (17:47):

Long, long. Well, of course stock. My father was called Sugi

Speaker 1 (17:53):

A Jacob Shapiro, or Gurah is cuz he made a sound.

Speaker 2 (17:57):

Yeah. Okay. So that, that's how, that's how people would get identified.

Speaker 1 (18:01):

Yeah. They don't do that anymore. Matter of fact, they, they use pronouns, <laugh>. Everybody,

Speaker 2 (18:05):

Everybody in my, everybody in my place had a name.

Speaker 1 (18:09):

Yeah. Well, could, it was just

Speaker 2 (18:10):

Easy. It was just easier that way.

Speaker 1 (18:12):

Yeah. You can't see, like Jacob Shapiro, gurah, uh, he, him, you know, all this crazy pronoun stuff they do now. It's a no strange world we're living in. So let's go, uh, let's go back to your career. Your father literally sent you the, to Spain, was it? Or Portugal. He sent me

Speaker 2 (18:31):

To Europe. He sent me to Europe on a nine, nine nation trip to see if I could develop the market for

Speaker 1 (18:36):

Arrest. Don't come back to the, the, to the warehouse is empty,

Speaker 2 (18:40):

Right? Yeah. It was old, old school. Yeah, old school. It worked. Uh, I was great. I was great. I was 21 years of lh. I I, uh, Hey, listen, when you got product and you got the price, um, people buy, right? It was just a question of tracking down, tracking down the buyers. I, uh, went all over looking for 'em and I found them.

Speaker 1 (18:59):

And of course you didn't speak the language. Really. See,

Speaker 2 (19:02):

Yes, I did.

Speaker 1 (19:03):

Well, you, you, you didn't speak, uh, uh, Portuguese. I mean, you had broken I,

Speaker 2 (19:08):

I had spoken Spanish. I had studied Spanish in school.

Speaker 1 (19:12):

Oh, okay.

Speaker 2 (19:13):

I had long, I had a lot of years in Spanish. And I, when I went to Bucknell University, I majored in, in, uh, languages and political science. And so I, I had Italian. I had Spanish. Right. And of course I was somewhat educated. So, you know, I could speak fundamental, very Yiddish.

Speaker 1 (19:33):

I was gonna say it was easier because you had Yiddish, and at least for the Jewish community,

Speaker 2 (19:38):

It was, when you have business on the, on the table, you, you learn very quickly. People, you learn how to speak foreign language.

Speaker 1 (19:46):

Right.

Speaker 2 (19:47):

So as a result, uh, be, when I first got there, of course I didn't speak it as well as I speak languages today, but I learned a bunch of languages over the many years. A lot of languages.

Speaker 1 (19:57):

Right. Well, you traveled the world. You were in Nigeria for a year.

Speaker 2 (20:00):

I was 70 countries in, in, in a lifetime of travel and business and living in different places. I lived all over. And I had a hell of a, an education. And when you, when you like people, you want to communicate with people. So you, you, you struggle to learn something. Uh, but some way of communicating,

Speaker 1 (20:21):

You know, as you described Nigeria, it came to mind that wow, he really likes it. And then you were describing it. I, and I, my question was, why <laugh>? It just seemed like a real difficult place to do business everywhere. Somebody has a handout. I think he called it Dash You, you know, when

Speaker 2 (20:36):

You, when you lived there? Well, this is many, many years ago. So this goes back to 1970. So that's, wow. That's over 50, 53 years ago. It, it was primitive. Right. The fact so primitive was so exciting. And I, you know, I enjoyed, I loved it, loved it back upon it. You know, there were things, of course, you, you were free until you, nothing could ever compare to the freedom of the life that I hadn't left. There was no law. Well,

Speaker 1 (21:03):

Since there's no law, didn't you feel

Speaker 2 (21:06):

It was completely lawless? You brought your faith for everything and anything?

Speaker 1 (21:11):

I mean, to me, almost, you wanna have basic laws, right? But you don't want, you don't wanna have a crazy where they restrict things where, like you were mentioning in, in that, you know, why is this legal and this is not Yeah, no, it's arbitrary.

Speaker 2 (21:23):

No, no. The the thing that of course was that I had money, we were running slot machines. So I was run, I had was

Speaker 1 (21:30):

So you were like kings.

Speaker 2 (21:32):

Of course you have money, money bought everything. You money you could, you could run over, you could run over a Nigerian, you know, just what was the value of the chi of the person that you ran over and so forth. Of course, I never ran any, anybody over good <laugh>. But there were endless stories where guys would run over somebody. Nobody, it, it was not so unusual. And so there'd be a sit down with the father of chief of the tribe. I was

Speaker 1 (21:58):

Gonna say the tribe. Yeah. <laugh>.

Speaker 2 (21:59):

All right. And how much was that person worth?

Speaker 1 (22:02):

Oh my God.

Speaker 2 (22:03):

Paid for it. That was it. Finish, problem finish. I, I may just, there was, there was nothing that couldn't be bought and paid for. And that was the way it was expected. You were the white man in the black African country, and that's the way it was supposed to. You, you were seen in terms of you're the master, so you paid for it.

Speaker 1 (22:22):

Wow. What were some of your favorite places? I mean, 70 countries

Speaker 2 (22:26):

Every place in the world. There wasn't a place that wasn't exciting because first of all, I didn't, I wasn't a, a, uh, corporate executive. Right. I was running slot machines in bordellos in clubs and nightclubs and casinos and huts, <laugh> and

Speaker 1 (22:43):

Yeah. I, that was interesting with the hut when I was reading that. Yeah. Because, um, you literally had a, once you made your profit for the night, you closed it and

Speaker 2 (22:51):

Yeah, in order to, in order to collect money, you had to throw the guys out Right. In a bar on the door so that they couldn't get in. And then you'd collect the money and then in order to get out of the place, you'd throw coins up in the air. Right. So that they <laugh>. That's

Speaker 1 (23:04):

Right. Isn't that not Las Vegas? I mean, uh,

Speaker 2 (23:07):

Unique life, unique experience.

Speaker 1 (23:10):

<laugh>, somebody had asked you once if he had any regrets, and you honestly answered, and Sam, of course, everybody has certain regrets, but isn't it true that the things that you regret in later life are the things that you didn't do? I mean, we all live the life and we learn from everything. But y you're a guy that went out 70 different countries. I mean, to me it's hardly, I can hardly imagine. Imagine it. And I mean, I've had a very full life, but all the things that you've been able to experience and

Speaker 2 (23:36):

When they put me in the earth, they're not gonna know how many, how many people they're buried. Right.

Speaker 1 (23:40):

<laugh>

Speaker 2 (23:41):

Interesting. They got one, one guy in one box. How, you know, how many lives did that guy live?

Speaker 1 (23:46):

Right. There's never a time where you say, wait, I wish I would've done that. I mean, it sounds like, uh, one of the major things in your life is you've done that. And how has that changed you personally? I mean, do you have a different view of life today? I mean, you're, you're not, I just, I, one year ago, so my business, you know, I'm, I'm younger than you. I'm 65 and you're what? 88? 85. Okay. So you're just a little younger than what my father would've been. And you're still working, you're still hustling.

Speaker 2 (24:14):

I still, I'm in all kinds of things. Yeah. The, the, listen, I balanced my life by choosing to be identified with the Orthodox world. I mean, I'm a powerful minded Zionist. And, uh, I raised my kids Orthodox. One became a big scholar, NICs, rabbi, teacher, and so forth. Eight

Speaker 1 (24:34):

Kids.

Speaker 2 (24:35):

Yeah. Robinson with eight kids. Yeah. Well, I

Speaker 1 (24:37):

Have five kids, but I have an asterisk because it was with two, two wives, not at the same time. Okay. But, uh, and I'm not even kabad, but are you personally Orthodox?

Speaker 2 (24:46):

I identify with Orthodox, you know, I perfectly So Shamus No, not at all.

Speaker 1 (24:51):

I'm, I'm the same way I identify with the Orthodox, but I'm not kosher.

Speaker 2 (24:55):

Oh, that's alright. It's okay.

Speaker 1 (24:56):

I love them

Speaker 2 (24:57):

Orthodox. You're, you didn't, you didn't change the rule. You're just not observing

Speaker 1 (25:02):

It. That's right. Right. But there's a love for them and I love reform to Orthodox. I think the reform in today's world's crazy, but still love them. And there's a lot of beauty in, in all aspects of Judaism.

Speaker 2 (25:13):

The nonorthodox world isn't gonna exist. The next generation.

Speaker 1 (25:17):

Yeah. I I don't disagree with you. They're, they don't understand it.

Speaker 2 (25:20):

Very simple. The kids are, are assimilated. The kids are into marriage. Kids are not ready to spend $35,000, uh, you know, for a Jewish, for some kind of Hebrew school for the kids and sofa, then they, it's it's out the window. That's right. There's no burning commitment. My my kids, my son's kids, uh, my, my son and his and his wife, uh, even with financial Hope from me, they sacrificed because it was very important for their kids to grow up Orthodox. Right. You, you don't know anybody that's sacrificing an audit to son raise their kids' reform. It's not a religion. It was an experience. Yes. It was an experiment, not an experience. It was an experiment that didn't work.

Speaker 1 (26:00):

That's right. And it's getting worse. Even when I grew up with, I had a reconstructionist rabbi, which is, I didn't understand at the time it's reform, but with very conservative aspects of it. But at least they were very pro-Israel and they Yeah.

Speaker 2 (26:13):

But that's the one that only lasts for one generation. That's right. That's true. You know, you're not gonna go to shul every, every Chave. You're not gonna put on the Phil, you're not gonna concentrate on, on, on Haba in terms of trying to improve each, each, uh, uh, to do something more and more orthodox. Eventually it'll just, it, um, self destroys. It's not there anymore. You're not going to 75% intermarriage in the nonorthodox world. Right. You think that there's gonna be a non-Orthodox temple in 10, 15 years from today? No, no. It's gonna be either be brought up by Orthodox synagogue or it's gonna be brought up by Muslims who are gonna make muss. Right. Because that's already happening.

Speaker 1 (26:55):

Well, you know, the, the true secular Jews will be in Israel <laugh> because they're there and a lot of them are not religious, but they look at it as, you know, Rohan is a national holiday for them.

Speaker 2 (27:05):

Yes. Was, okay, so there's either Right.

Speaker 1 (27:07):

Absolutely. That's a whole other discussion, I guess. Right. During the seventies, would you consider that the modern heyday in the end of

Speaker 2 (27:15):

Seventies and the eighties? Up until the early nineties was fabulous.

Speaker 1 (27:18):

And, and then after that, after, uh, everything happened with Gotti and everything?

Speaker 2 (27:22):

Well, I think that, I think that the, uh, Giuliani was the mayor. Uh, the Feds pretty much targeted me at that point. I had already had three state cases, three federal cases.

Speaker 1 (27:33):

Right.

Speaker 2 (27:34):

And on the final federal case, they decided that, that that particular point, uh, I, they, they locked me up. That was it. They, they brought having charges against me. And, uh, the fact that I was associated with Genovese crime, family and organized crime and so forth, they, it was just, it was time. It was time. Somebody saw an opportunity to take me down and Okay, let's take them out. How

Speaker 1 (27:57):

Did it feel having the entire United States government after you, you have to sort of, even whether you like Trump or not, you, you know, you have to sort of, you know, he, he's fighting it. Loved,

Speaker 2 (28:06):

I loved Trump. I loved Great for Israel for the, how did it feel having the federal government on me? I had a very stressful life. Yeah. I had, I had, uh, non-stop involvement with, uh, organized crime. And I had a constantly state and federal, uh, arrests and prosecutions and stuff. But so I, I had, you know, it wasn't all that, that, uh, what do you call it? Um, all all that you watch in the Hollywood movie. Alright. And I had two attempts outta my life.

Speaker 1 (28:37):

Wow. And tell us about that.

Speaker 2 (28:39):

I had two attempts.

Speaker 1 (28:40):

And you, and you made it. We know that

Speaker 2 (28:42):

<laugh>, apparently I did. There's two that I knew of. You don't know what goes through the minds of others, but there are people that, it's a world of tremendous paranoia.

Speaker 1 (28:54):

Sure. Well, you can imagine why. I mean,

Speaker 2 (28:56):

Uh, you can't imagine. Yeah. You can't imagine. It's, uh, it's extreme. What might you might think is your best friend might be the guy that's gonna take you to your death.

Speaker 1 (29:06):

Was was there contracts put on you or are these just

Speaker 2 (29:09):

There, are there order to do so? And somebody tells you, bring, bring him to such and such a restaurant, one o'clock in the morning, that man has to do it other, that kill him. Right. And he can't, he can't say, you know, run away or something like that. It doesn't, it doesn't work like

Speaker 1 (29:25):

That today. Are you free of all that or do you still worry about it?

Speaker 2 (29:29):

Yeah. Yep. Yep, yep.

Speaker 1 (29:31):

So that's good. Talk about some of the, the personalities that you've met that we would know. You had your niche. Did you work with some of these people like Gotti or any of these? The well-know ones I

Speaker 2 (29:44):

Remember. I, I didn't know Gotti. I knew Sammy and the bull.

Speaker 1 (29:47):

Okay.

Speaker 2 (29:48):

But it was professionally, it was nothing. Right. I just had one, one and one one meeting with him. That's

Speaker 1 (29:55):

All. What is it like having a meeting with that guy now that you know that he, he offed 18, 19 people.

Speaker 2 (30:00):

That was a business. It was a business meeting. It was a, a major discussion to operate all the slot machines in the city of New York. Right. It was gonna be a joint venture. And since I was the professional, I was selected to be the guy to run it.

Speaker 1 (30:15):

And you had set up all these machines in these, in these bodegas and bars, and they're basically illegal. So did you, uh, you know, the police knew about it. Were, were there people paid off to, to look the other way or No, there was

Speaker 2 (30:27):

Not. There was very little payoff.

Speaker 1 (30:30):

So they just didn't look at it as a big deal then.

Speaker 2 (30:33):

They no payoffs were there May, there may have been some local ones in, but yes, there was some, but I wasn't involved in it.

Speaker 1 (30:41):

Right.

Speaker 2 (30:42):

The, uh, the, uh, the basic, um, attitude was, you know, it's not been, it's not bothering anybody, so let's just leave it alone.

Speaker 1 (30:52):

Which is really what you said that, uh, you know, like, you always hear that the mafia didn't, of course some of them did. They didn't want to get into area of drugs or you're not a bank. You're selling, you know, you're gambling and it's really a victimless crime, uh, in a sense. And, and that was something you stayed away from all the drugs and all the other stuff. And, uh,

Speaker 2 (31:12):

There's only, there's, that wasn't part of my life. It was also drummed into me. We're we're not in that business.

Speaker 1 (31:18):

No. And that's, that's, uh, very smart. And also, as you said, you, you dealt with the moral laws, uh, you kept Of

Speaker 2 (31:25):

Course. Course. So I would say, yeah. And,

Speaker 1 (31:27):

And frankly, you know, you, you made a couple great points. Like, like there's gambling and Wall Street, there's gi so these are all things that, and and it's kind of funny because now it looks like they're opening 'em all up.

Speaker 2 (31:38):

Larry, it's off. Sure. Again, today, for example, does, does anybody get prosecuted for a marijuana cigarette? No.

Speaker 1 (31:46):

No. But five years ago they put you in jail. Anybody get,

Speaker 2 (31:49):

Anybody get prosecuted for trafficking in, in marijuana today? Uh,

Speaker 1 (31:53):

They still do for trafficking in some places. No, they, no, they don't. But nothing like, nothing like it was No, they

Speaker 2 (31:58):

Don't. No, they don't. No, no, they don't. Huh? It's, it, it's, it's the fact, it's the fact it's legal by the government. And today, you know, somebody gets caught with, with how you gonna say, judge is gonna say what you're, what you're doing is legal or what this guy's doing is legal The same. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (32:16):

It's ridiculous. Now it, they'll make it a misdemeanor or they'll make a show or something, but,

Speaker 2 (32:20):

Uh, not even, not even Larry.

Speaker 1 (32:22):

Well,

Speaker 2 (32:23):

I've asked that question to a lot of guys that traffic today in, in marijuana,

Speaker 1 (32:27):

And

Speaker 2 (32:28):

They almost do it with, they almost do it with impunity.

Speaker 1 (32:31):

So it's sort of like the, the cigarette thing where they're saving money on taxes, so on and so forth, just by going around.

Speaker 2 (32:38):

Same thing, Larry. It's commercial

Speaker 1 (32:39):

Prime. Myron, I really enjoyed our conversation. This is part one. When I have you back, we'll be discussing Simon Weisenthal on your participation in the hunt for Nazi work criminals. The book is called The Chronicles of the Last Jewish Gangster From Meyer to Myron. There is also the new documentary on Amazon Prime. Last Man Standing, the Chronicles of Myron Sugarman. Once again, Myron, thank you

Speaker 2 (33:03):

Larry. You take good care of yourself. All the best,

Speaker 1 (33:06):

Larry. All the best to you too, Myron. Take care.