Have you ever wondered what it's like to navigate the world as a neurodiverse individual? Join our host, Julian Gwinnett in an eye-opening discussion with Professor Farzad Amirabdollahian, as we unravel the beauty of neurodiversity and its unique gifts and challenges. We journey through Farzad's life, from his early years in the culturally diverse Iran to his position as an Associate Dean in the UK, offering unique insights into his personal encounters with neurodiversity.
As we explore the lived experiences of neurodiversity, we stumble upon systemic barriers that often limit our appreciation for it. Farzad recounts his encounter with a dyslexic student at Compton University, which prompted his own quest for understanding dyslexia. We discuss the potential of neurodiverse thinking, from pattern recognition in dyslexia to the unique strengths of neurodiverse individuals. Our conversation challenges the typical, urging us to look beyond the mainstream and appreciate the richness of diverse minds.
Finally, we draw connections between physical and mental health, emphasising their profound impact on neurodiverse individuals. Our discussion delves into the importance of micronutrients in brain function, hinting at the potential for further research in the area. As we conclude, we agree on the need for understanding and celebrating individual needs and strengths as a way to liberate neurodiverse individuals. So, tune in for an enlightening conversation that could transform your understanding of neurodiversity.
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@UoWFEHW
@DIIverseHub
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Have you ever wondered what it's like to navigate the world as a neurodiverse individual? Join our host, Julian Gwinnett in an eye-opening discussion with Professor Farzad Amirabdollahian, as we unravel the beauty of neurodiversity and its unique gifts and challenges. We journey through Farzad's life, from his early years in the culturally diverse Iran to his position as an Associate Dean in the UK, offering unique insights into his personal encounters with neurodiversity.
As we explore the lived experiences of neurodiversity, we stumble upon systemic barriers that often limit our appreciation for it. Farzad recounts his encounter with a dyslexic student at Compton University, which prompted his own quest for understanding dyslexia. We discuss the potential of neurodiverse thinking, from pattern recognition in dyslexia to the unique strengths of neurodiverse individuals. Our conversation challenges the typical, urging us to look beyond the mainstream and appreciate the richness of diverse minds.
Finally, we draw connections between physical and mental health, emphasising their profound impact on neurodiverse individuals. Our discussion delves into the importance of micronutrients in brain function, hinting at the potential for further research in the area. As we conclude, we agree on the need for understanding and celebrating individual needs and strengths as a way to liberate neurodiverse individuals. So, tune in for an enlightening conversation that could transform your understanding of neurodiversity.
Follow us on Twitter
@UoWFEHW
@DIIverseHub
@VascoAdam
We are recording this podcast at the home of Wolverhampton University's multimedia journalism degree in the Alan Turing building on City Campus. The radio studio we are sitting in is kitted out to the same standards as places like BBC Radio 4 and 5 Live. It was installed alongside two studios as part of the new Wolverhampton Screen School. If you want to pop in for a guided tour, to discuss booking the studios or to chat about the journalism undergraduate degree, just email the course leader, gareth Owen. his address is gowin3 at wlvacuk.
Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to another episode of our series of podcast focusing on new diversity, where we shine a light on the lived experiences of new diverse people, hear from those who help and support them, as well as helping to increase awareness and understanding of what new diversity is and what it's like to be a new diverse person. Today's session promises a unique cross-cultural exploration of new diversity by the lived experience of today's guest speaker. I'm delighted to be joined in the studio by Professor Fawzad. Amir Adol Ahim Fawzad is currently an associate dean and head of the School of Health and Society within the Faculty of Education, health and Well-being here at the University. So welcome, fawzad, and thank you so much for agreeing to take part in what I know is going to be a fascinating conversation about your own experiences of new diversity. But before we begin to talk about that, please can we explore a little bit about your own personal journey. You know, coming to the UK from Iran.
Speaker 3:Well. thank you, julian. Yes, my name is Fawzad Amir Abdul-Layyan.
Speaker 3:I was born in Iran in 1970s and in my childhood my parents decided to go to America and continue their education in America. At the time that we were in America, the Islamic revolution happened in Iran and my parents decided to go back to Iran. And going back to Iran, we were presented with the situation that there was a war starting and very soon we became displaced as a result of war, you know, for eight years, war with Iraq, and my childhood was basically spent during 1980s when there was an eight years of war between Iran and Iraq. So by that time, of course, i didn't have a clue about new diversity or or dyslexia. So, in completion of the war and then when we started to, you know, to go back to the society post war with all of the disasters of war, i soon realized that in terms of education, we are far beyond where we would be. And I made it to university by luck, i suppose, as one of the reserves who would, you know, would make it to university and finished my degree in nutrition in 1990s and, in completion of the degree, work for a while in Iran And finally, in 2003, i moved to UK to do a PhD in London And since then moved one job to the other work at London Metropolitan University, university of Hertfordshire, coventry University, liverpool Hope University for around 11 years And then I moved to University of Wolverhampton in 2022.
Speaker 3:So my journey is a journey that is starting from, you know, from from a country in Middle East and coming to a new country in 2003, and then living in here in now since 2003,. 20 years here. I've got two children and I'm married. we live in Liverpool still And my children are speaking very much with a spouse accent. I have been throughout my life, divided between being an Iranian, british or British Iranian right. So that's a bit of an introduction.
Speaker 2:That's a brilliant introduction, thanks, and I'm continuing on from my brilliant conversation earlier, which, unfortunately, listeners will not get the benefit of hearing, but perhaps we can revisit some of those films later on as we continue the discussion. You mentioned briefly there a little bit about sort of the cultural differences between Iran and the UK And also, very briefly as well, your own experience as a diagnosed neurodiverse person with dyslexia, and I just wonder whether, first of all, your own experience, your own journey, what was the precursor? What was it that led you to actually seek a diagnosis? Was there a particular point in your life And what was that?
Speaker 3:And it's an interesting one that, only coming to today's session, julian, i was thinking that just reflecting on how did I realise that I am very different in that sense and what got me to that point? At the point of growing in Iran, when I reflect on 1980s and even up to the point that I lived in Iran by the end of 90s, there was not much of recognition about dyslexia or neurodiversity. I remember this particular story when I was at the secondary school at the age of 12, that I was always good at what I was doing in this school. However, my killer was always time. Time was something that would have played massive, you know, role in my academic performance And I remember that, as a child and growing in that time of very much chaos in Iran, we weren't unfamiliar with cruelty in the school and being beaten up and so on. That was something that was going on anyway, but I remember this particular snapshot of my life that there was an examination for everything. There was an examination And in that examination we like me and another child, 11-year-old, 12-year-old we were the ones that we were still continuing on the exam. Everybody else has left And one of the teachers came in and said you're still doing this, what are you doing? And then he started beating us up And again it was something that would have happened, but he bit us so badly that I remember that, you know, in one of the, i had a massive bruise in my face And when I went home, my mom was absolutely ballistic And she grabbed me and we went back to the school And she, of course, was, you know, very much complaining about this And anyway, that episode that I'm reflecting on, that I'm just thinking that by that time there was no appreciation of the fact that there might be a difference in the performance of somebody with dyslexia compared to the one that is, you know, is a usual normal. Normal is the term to you know, to be debated as a student And I've had many of those episodes in my life that throughout life not that I have been disadvantaged, or I think it's more of lack of awareness and lack of understanding of the dyslexia And up until the point that I was in UK and I don't believe that I knew much about that, in fact, up to close to 2009, i don't think that I've heard much I was still working at London Met, i was doing my PhD at London Met and basically learning about this new country that I have been residing at, and it was only when I was working at Coventry University that I was presented with one of my students with dyslexia And I realized that I don't know much about this And I need to learn about that in order to be able to support my student, who I believe that was the probably most intelligent student in class, but she would have said things that are absolutely not mainstream answer And got me to think about okay, so what do I need to learn in order to be able to support my student?
Speaker 3:And I took a training, which was a CEDA course that was drawn by Coventry University Human Resources Department and to learn about dyslexia As part of our training. When I was talking about you know so what these maps of dyslexia seems to be very familiar to me myself. And then the facilitator of the session told me that, well, i think you need to get assessed yourself. What do you mean? I said well, i think you know there are some reasons for me believing that you need to get the diagnosis yourself.
Speaker 3:And I had a bit of a chat and I went for diagnosis and my assessment, which was planned for around 50 minutes, took around three hours, and then eight pages of diagnosis from the learning disability unit. That was telling me that I've got dyslexia And for me that was a milestone because in a way, you get to that point and you see that, whoa, now it makes. Ah, i see, now it makes sense, now I know what has been happening. And then those milestones that I was talking about, like the experience that I mentioned about that snapshot of being beaten up and so on, ah, i see. So my experience of being diagnosed was part of when I was trying to help my own student and I was picked up. Part of that.
Speaker 2:So to sort of like and slightly clarify your diagnosis has actually helped you to make sense of your life. Not just you know the difficulties that you have had, but whole episodes of your life, going back to that brutal experience you were talking about earlier, about beating up in school And any other experiences you may have had as well. When you reflect back on, can you see, for instance, how the knowledge that you now have, based on your understanding what dyslexia is and how that relates to your own diagnosis, because obviously everybody's experiences unique and different? But does it help you to sort of like see patterns throughout your life where things have happened that you perhaps weren't really didn't understand at the time? but now there's like a light bulb moment and suddenly everything now makes sense.
Speaker 3:I think, julian, you're absolutely right. An example of that is that when I was a child and I was given some reading task And I was often struggling with reading, missing the lines, not being able to complete the task, especially within the time, and I remember that I was asking my father father, i cannot do this, this is not just doable, i cannot read it. And he was. I don't know why, maybe he needed to be assessed himself. He was saying that I've got a suggestion You just need to get your coloring paper And so coloring pencils and color the lines. And it was helping me when I would have got the box of coloring pencils And I would have got the lines and colored them, and at the time I didn't have a clue about something called there is a color overlay that you put on your line to be able to make a better sense of that, and that is very common support for dyslexia. So, reflecting back on those episodes, there are a lot that in your life you would do yourself as a coping mechanism, not really being aware of the concept and the knowledge and the support that is available. So if you don't know which hand is right, which hand is left, you will always try to have your watch, and the one hand with watch is the left one, so that would give you your coping mechanism to know which one is what. And if you don't know the lines and you would be able to you were trying to find your lines to be able to read. So you try to get your coloring pencil and color your text, and there are so many of these that were becoming the coping mechanism, not being aware of the official lines of coping mechanism. And then, when you go to the diagnosis and you hear that this is not only your own experience, there is really a condition, there is really a case for these And they are, of course, established, well-investigated support mechanisms, things would start to make sense, to be honest. And then you will get I don't know read and write software, or you will get the ones that are color overlay and you will try to allocate more time and so on, and all together life will become more understandable.
Speaker 3:So one of the things that I have been doing throughout my life is that I have always woken up quite early in the morning. When I say early, very early, the way that is disturbingly early. Sometimes before I don't know 5 o'clock, I start 4.30 in the morning because I need to find the time that I need for doing my day-to-day work, and you can imagine that that's a lot of pressure for a family to say that, oh, this ghost who is going around in the house in the middle of the night, and so on, and it is not only confusing for yourself but also confusing for the others. And then the diagnosis helps in terms of making sense. One of the things that has been throughout life, one of the things that people would say, oh, that's odd, is about the particular shade and coloring of the rooms and so on. I've often in my life turned the curtains down and it was an area that is very much dark and with a particular color, and being absolutely obsessed about that, and I remember that we were talking about that even inside the family to say that, oh, that night, all who is doing these kind of thing weird stuff, you could brand it And then it makes sense that there is a particular setting that would be far more enabling for your condition And, to be very honest with you, i don't believe that I've got a very clear understanding of how common this is in between individuals, but I know that for me the setting.
Speaker 3:I could make sense of that And I could make peace with that as well.
Speaker 3:Does it make a difference when you know or you don't know?
Speaker 3:I think it does, because you would reflect on many events of your life and you would reflect of things that was not fully happening because of time, or the relationships that didn't work because of not understanding your own dimension, not the other ones, understanding your condition or being aware or understanding of your condition, and so on And altogether it helps in planning and so on. One of the points that you asked earlier is about the cultural differences, and I was reflecting on that myself in my way to hear today, thinking that there was a lot toward treatment At that point in Iran. I don't believe that there was understanding, but nowadays, when I check websites to see what is available, i come across texts or resources or claims that we can treat dyslexia. It's resemblance of the ones that make a claim of treating other neurodiversity conditions, and the notion of treating is a lot of resemblance with LGBT as well, and we will treat you. It's fascinating to what extent there is understanding and awareness, and I believe that there is a lot of room for that.
Speaker 2:Anyway, i think I went off the tangent. No, because you literally started talking about something that's really really quite important, actually in terms of the overall focus of these discussions, because, as I said at the beginning, they are a platform for neurodiverse people to talk about their lived experiences, but they're also an opportunity for people who help and support neurodiverse people to talk about how they do this and what they gain from that experience themselves. But, for me, the focus for me is always on what can we do to make people more aware and understanding about neurodiversity, how to help and support neurodiverse people, but also how to listen from their experiences and always put them at the center of the stage when it comes to any discussion about neurodiversity. And so much to my knowledge of our approach to neurodiversity has been mostly focused on treating the individual preferably curing them or treating them in some way but how to make them less like themselves, how to literally embed them more into our existing society so that they become almost indistinguishable from anybody else within that society, rather than to recognize the unique gifts that they have, as well as the challenges they have, and help have a more informed discussion about how we can construct a society, a world in which embraces that difference and uses it so that that person doesn't feel as though there's something wrong with them. They actually feel that they actually the way that they think is really incredibly useful.
Speaker 2:If only there was, and hopefully we can create a greater world that is able to embrace that difference and use it for everybody's advantage. And what you were saying earlier in that conversation I was thinking is brilliant, because even before you had a diagnosis, you're already working on solutions with your various approaches to using incredibly complex coloring techniques to get around this, because neurodiverse people are brilliant at doing this. We are exceptionally inventive and creative in terms of being able to actually make our own lives better. So, really, if only there was an opportunity for us to share that knowledge with each other so that we can all benefit each other. And I wonder whatever challenges, barriers that you may have faced throughout your life, for which you've devised equally creative ways to actually overcome them.
Speaker 3:First of all, I absolutely fully agree with what you say. Part of that is, I believe, human nature. I'm a chartered scientist and I am used to problem solving and finding scenarios or categorizing the groups, putting them into box, trying to find solutions and then generalizing the solutions to bigger populations. And that is practically looking at my expertise in life as nutrition and public health and epidemiology in particular. So it is very common that we come across those approaches in all sciences. In here, I believe that what we do is something different from science. It is appreciation of the fact that each one of us would have a particular contribution to life which is very, very much unique in my mind. And that particular contribution. We cannot homogenize it and make it exactly the same in particular contributions to life, But we cannot make the. Even when you look at the most beautiful scenario, we cannot make the beauty out of just homogenizing that, the beautiful pictures, Because everything will become boring in that sense. So when I go back to what you mentioned, I'm just thinking that one of the barriers that is ahead of us is the barrier that we try to simplify the situations, We try to put people into groups, We try to say that this is what we know, and what we know is really the reality, And that might not be the case. There is the appreciation of the fact that what we know is not reality. This is part of the reality that we know And the fact that each cases of neurodiversity might be different from the other one, And there must be some level of understanding of the fact that individuals have got different needs.
Speaker 3:And if you are not one of those neurodiverse individuals, there is a value in trying to be aware and understand the world, but not necessarily trying to produce their solutions. Because they are very intelligent individuals. They can produce solutions. They might require support, but that support is not coming as a support that is categorized and packaged for them, to be given to them. That support needs to be the support that is produced in collaboration and discussion and in understanding of what is the need of the individuals. So you might come to me and say that, as a neurodiverse individual with dyslexia, we are going to give you 25% more time for everybody, And I am just thinking that there is a difference between individuals and their needs are different, And sometimes it is a matter of time.
Speaker 3:Some people are more requiring support with regard to reading and writing. Sometimes the individuals have produced already advanced coping mechanisms and they would require more awareness of the other aspects of support that are available. So the moral of the story for me is that the barrier at the moment is that lack of understanding and appreciation and very much effort to put things into the package To say that, alright, so there you go, So this is you and I know who you are and this is the support that you would get. I don't think that approach is a very productive approach. It hasn't been supportive for me because I felt that some of the difficulties that I have I produce solutions for them myself. There are occasions that I need help and I need somebody who understands me and work with me to produce the support.
Speaker 2:It's interesting you talk there, because it's almost as if you are suggesting that the problem is the way that we actually systemise everything. We create a system and then we try and make the individuals who are part of that system function within that system. If there is a problem, then the problem is with the individual and it's their individual fault for not actually being able to actually be part of this wonderful system that is proven to succeed, whereas perhaps sometimes we need to step back and think about whether the systems we create are actually fit for purpose in the world. Increasingly, in the world that we are actually moving towards, which is one that's much more diverse and much more inclusive, Absolutely.
Speaker 3:The difficulty is that we produce systems and the systems are always limited to several other factors that are shaping the system. One of them would be the resources available to systems. In the absence of the resources, and financial support and so on, we often produce pragmatic systems that we would like to fit to the scenario and we would like to force fit to the scenario sometimes, and I don't believe that those are always productive And then we would like to define people based on those successes that we have into fitting them into systems. I don't believe that's going to work.
Speaker 2:Now, you briefly mentioned earlier your experience of a student you met at Compton University who had dyslexia, and indeed was the person who actually began your journey of actually discovering that you yourself were dyslexia. And you said this wonderful thing. you said that they were outside of the mainstream in a way that so many neurodiverse people are. is that things that makes us brilliant and unique and therefore our experience is equally unique and also beneficial for not just for ourselves but also society? is the way that we actually think, the way that we are from one of a better expression program for engineer to think. Engineer is a way I like to think about things now, and being outside of the mainstream is sometimes a very, very good place to be. Have you yourself discovered any advantages as a neurodiverse person, a dyslexic person even? Have you, now that you have a more well-formed understanding for your own experience and also for the experiences of people like the student at Coventry, being able to detect any sort of advantages to neurodiverse thinking?
Speaker 3:That's a big question, i think. First of all, i agree that when we get a good understanding of ourselves, we will try to see, of course, to look at what are things that we do really good and what are things that we would need support and help in those areas. And when I reflect on myself, after understanding dyslexia and the fact that, yes, i've got dyslexia, i've got this eight-page report of things that I'm good at or things that I need support with, so now, okay, i can basically make sense of my life and look at okay, so now, what Now? what? Now? where would I take it from this moment that I've got some diagnosis And for me, the journey continues with understanding yourself a little bit more to say that, all right, so what am I?
Speaker 3:So, what is my intelligence? What am I good at, what are the things that I might need to be careful of? And I try to continue on that journey myself. So I know that, while there might be areas related to time or related to the focus on the details of the information, that I need to plan for them And that would get you to that understanding that, okay, so you would require a lot of planning, and planning becomes that difference between achieving or not achieving. And then you would require to basically allocate time to reflect and reflect And the fact that you should understand that when it comes to your big IQ, while things such as your abstract reasoning might be slightly below the others or at least that's the case for me that my abstract reasoning is not as good as the others.
Speaker 3:Of course it's taking some time for me to actually analyze the situations, but then analytical thinking, pattern recognition, looking at the logistics of things, i think gradually those skills would become better because you would produce coping mechanisms. That those coping mechanisms you would excel in them. And when you excel in them it is. Maybe it's not comparable to other disabilities, but we hear that individuals who become blind, they will develop some sense of improved hearing And they will become far more accurate in their hearing. And I don't think it's exactly comparable, but to some level you can see that you become well aware of the areas that you might not be in your peak of the performance, but you can try to produce other coping strategies to excel in other parts.
Speaker 3:So for me, those understandings has given me some coping mechanisms and further appreciation of the fact that I need more time, i need more reflection, i need more discussion and understanding of the others around me, because it's very, very easy to look at the generalized, systematic solutions and, especially if you are a scientist like myself, you know you will go for say it's a system, it's a system problem, and you know, and you would miss chance in appreciation of the fact that there are some of the problems that are adaptive problem, cultural problem, diversity problems and so on, and the fact that you are so limited in appreciation of them and understanding them, and and that's where we would often go wrong. So for me, understanding of myself has helped me to try to plan for the areas that I can be good at, and that has been a blessing at least.
Speaker 2:Now you mentioned you are the second person today, the second dyslexic person I've had a conversation with today, who's mentioned an ability to, for a propensity for, pattern recognition, and I'm you know. I'm wondering whether, whether you feel that is something, a skill that you've acquired, as you said, through the coping mechanisms that you've actually developed in order to actually be able to cope with life's challenges and hurdles, or whether that is actually something that's actually the the ability to, to recognize patterns is a feature of dyslexia itself.
Speaker 3:Fantastic question, julian. The short answer to that is I actually don't know, only because I don't believe that I have a very good understanding of the dyslexia beyond my own experience. You know, i know as much as what is my own experience and I am absolutely up for understanding dyslexia and understanding neurodiversity more, looking at other conditions, looking at other individuals and other lived experiences, and I believe that all of them will make a fantastic piece of collective picture in order to do further planning and making sense of. You know of the support One for me pattern recognition.
Speaker 3:And is that the feature of dyslexia or is that the feature of the way that I have reorganized my life? with a lot of planning and reflection, i try to reflect on what happened and then what can be learned from that and true reflection, you often come across a better ability of pattern recognition. That is at least my own opinion of what I am good at. The test of IQ that I have is putting me at pattern recognition 2% of the world, you know, in pattern recognition. But is that something that I have acquired or is that something that I have inherited or is it something that is part of my limitation? The honest answer is that I don't know, but one thing for sure is that, julian, i will try to figure out, because that's a lovely question.
Speaker 2:Well again, i mean, i could even go there further and say, for instance, that this, the solutions you arrive at in order to take account of the challenges you face to what extent are they themselves actually influenced by your dyslexia? But I think that would be a never-ending question. We would never actually be able to come to a resolution here, because I think, from my own experience as a universe person, i feel that there's the your understanding of what the condition is. Then there's how that that condition relates to you as an individual, because they're never the same thing. You know you will spend an entire life trying to actually discover where is you know, where is the unique person that is yourself, that is divorced, that is absent, separate from the condition that you have. And that's very, very difficult, because all neurodiverse conditions fundamentally affect how you understand, perceive and experience the world, but they don't necessarily control you as an individual. And you will spend an entire life trying to actually separate.
Speaker 2:Oh well, i do this myself. I separate the you know myself from being an autistic person. Where does autism end in terms of my thinking, how I preach and understand the world, and where do I actually discover me as an individual, separate from this, and the only way that I actually can ever come close to this is to beat by being in the company of other autistic people, because it's only then that you actually learn from their experiences and learn which those experiences are similar to yours, but also which experiences that I've had that are very, very, very different, and then leads me to think well, that is maybe part of my unique personality. That's not, that's not influenced by autism. I know one day, as a dyslexic person, is this, is this an experience that you've had yourself?
Speaker 3:It is, and the distinguishing between what you are you know beyond this situation of what you are as part of your neurodiversity, is difficult, and it becomes more difficult when you think about other factors that contribute, and one of them some of them, are external. So individuals who would tell you that they know about you, or they know, they know the condition and the characteristic of the condition is A, b, c, d, and you would try to say, all right, is it? is it the one that I'm looking for? There are occasions that you doubt yourself to say that so would I meet all of those definitions that others are talking about my condition and and that would make a difficulty in understanding yourself because individuals would say that, all right, so you have got dyslexia this must be a mild dyslexia, because you have been very successful and then they will try to integrate success to the lack or to the extent of your learning disability and then it would become a confusing concept altogether. That is a perception of the others that is trying to get integrated to. How do you define yourself? and and the outcome of that would often be more, more complicated than what you think, because you wonder that the version of definition that I have produced for myself. Is it right? or I am still missing a piece, because the others are seeing something that I might not be seeing myself? so, because they say that they know this condition. Now, to what extent is that true or false? that's another story, right, and then this will make the this entangling of the elements more difficult.
Speaker 3:My experience is that you are right being in the company of other individuals with learning disability is often very inspiring and but the reality is that, at the end of the day, the appreciation of the fact that this is part of life, a very, very normal and very beautiful part of life, regardless of the success and regardless of the you know, regardless of the coping mechanism, regardless of the system, regardless of the system, will be liberating, right, regardless of you know of how do you fit, to what extent this is you, to what extent, at the end of the day, this is part of me, and when you get to that part that this is part of me, and regardless of how others will see or define or how mainstream I am or how I'm not, this is part of life and we are different and each one will have a contribution to life.
Speaker 3:I think that appreciation must be liberating and then, from that moment of you know, of liberation, it produces a lot of inspiration to say that, well, look, i have got a particular contribution to life in which I can exceed, excel, and hence, while there are areas that, understandably, i might not be excellent in those areas, but I can try to focus on making a beautiful story in a particular dimension of life another issue that you, i think throughout the conversation we've had today, actually is that we've kind of we've, we've identified it but we haven't really talked about it, which is the existence of, first of all, co-morbidities, which are independent conditions that relate to newer diversity, that aren't actually particular to anyone, like newer diverse condition themselves.
Speaker 2:A classic one would be executive dysfunction, you know the the inability to be able to plan, the inability to be able to actually begin tasks, the ability to manage tasks in any sort of like usual manner or using well, you know, actually successfully complete, which is a condition that many, many, many newer diverse people seem to have, myself included.
Speaker 2:Now, there is quite a lot of awareness about this as well.
Speaker 2:But aside from co-morbidities I know this from my own experience as well there are a number of health concerns, issues that newer diverse people seem to be more susceptible to, possibly for our genetic makeup I'm not a scientist, i'm not a geneticist, so I may be saying something correctly, factually incorrect there, but nonetheless most susceptible to having, for which, as far as I'm aware, there's no obvious correlation.
Speaker 2:So, whereas it's really obvious that if you were to select a personal and autistic person, that you are more likely to have executive function disorder than somebody who doesn't have either of those two conditions, and there's a clear and obvious connection between them. There isn't so much so obvious a connection between autistic people and an increased risk of developing heart related conditions. It's a going back to your slight, your area of expertise here. Is this something, first of all, that you were aware of, and and is this something that you feel that we need? we need to be much more aware of, for instance, so that that we don't have so many premature deaths and first of all, i think I think there are two questions in there regarding comorbidities and then regarding the.
Speaker 3:Regarding the particular set of expertise, i need to first clarify that I'm not an expert with regard to the learning disabilities in association with the physical health and and my field of expertise is in nutrition and public health and looking at nutritional status in young and older adults, and I'm not an expert to be able to comment on that. However, there may be one or two things that I feel personally or maybe important considerations when you think about the broader health of neurodiverse individuals. One of them, for me, is the extraordinary impact of the experience of neurodiversity on mental health. Right, and the fact that it does read does bring massive burden on health, mental health in particular, because we just talked about the complexity of diagnosis and understanding and awareness and interaction between a neurodiverse individual and the society around it. Right, and it does produce confusions, difficulties, occasional depression and so on in terms of mental health, and I have experienced it myself as well for mental health perspectives. But the other bit of that is that this extraordinary pressure that is integrating with mental health. There is a well-established association between mental health and physical health, so, regardless of the genetic predisposition. I don't think that we can underestimate the difference between this. We can underestimate the impact of the mental health on physical health of neurodiverse individuals. So is it something to think about that? Absolutely, i think it's a necessity to think about that If you think about, for example, nutrition of the neurodiverse individuals.
Speaker 3:I mentioned that I'm not an expert, but I can easily think that. Well, look, if you have got some particular relationship with time, considering that humans are very much individuals that are on circadian systems and we need to really be in advanced mode to plan for eating and plan for all physical activity and so on And there might be further notification, further consideration, regarding even micronutrients that we consider and consume in our life. So we know, for example, some of the micronutrients are especially important for brain function B vitamins, selenium, omega-3, those are the ones that are important for the brain function. And is there any value in doing some studies that are looking at the micronutrient requirement and need of neurodiverse individuals? Absolutely, throughout my life I haven't done that. That is not my field of expertise, but just going through this discussion, i'm thinking that this should be a lovely, fascinating story to look at the physical health of neurodiverse individuals And, with appreciation of just mentioning neurodiverse individuals, you are looking at very, very diverse groups obviously.
Speaker 2:So in a way it sounds obvious the way that you've described it really is that because there is such a well-established link between physical health and mental health and wellbeing and how poor mental health can actually lead to sort of like poor physical health, that perhaps again we've looked at neurodiversity and come to something like the wrong conclusion that if you could actually improve the overall mental health and wellbeing of neurodiverse people, that in itself again I'm definitely not a health expert might actually lead to an overall improvement in physical health.
Speaker 3:I agree, and it is something that I think is taking us to that very famous discussion in diversity, the discussion that is taking us to equality, equity and liberation, and it's about what would be the best way to go forward. Is it part of the equality or is it equity? And in my opinion, there is really a priority to think about liberation first all of things that are absolutely necessary for the broad health of us, health and wellbeing of us and then thinking about the specific need of the individuals within that platform. And I don't believe that our broad paradigm of health and wellbeing in the world is supportive of that, because we have been raised with the idea that there is a disease and we basically cure the disease. There is a problem that will solve the problem, and this is a very famous discussion in public health that you would look at. This is a well-established paradigm, that is a paradigm which is therapeutic, and those therapeutic paradigms are not necessarily supportive when it comes to the health of neurodiverse individuals, because those are the paradigms that are starting with problem and solution of the problem, disease and curing the disease. But in here, talking about neurodiversity, you are talking about the problems that are multilayer, integrated with each other and they might not even be diagnosed. So if you have got problems that are undiagnosed, how do you plan for that? For me, we need to probably step back and think about right. So, thinking about broad paradigm of wellbeing, not the treatment, not the therapeutic paradigm Thinking about wellbeing, what are the liberating actions that we need to plan for the broad wellbeing and prevention of the disease?
Speaker 3:And it's a big say. It's extremely difficult to come from that paradigm. It's a very expensive paradigm for the societies to consider. But only when we start from that paradigm and we start from the paradigm that is disease-free and is well-being oriented, we would be able to plan for things from the perspective that, all right. So this is a paradigm of wellbeing and the paradigm of wellbeing is receptive of the difference and diversity and the paradigm of wellbeing is receptive of the actual wellbeing actions that are different from individuals in the so-called mainstream And it's easy to be said rather than to be done, and I am not aware of many societies or countries that they have started from that perspective.
Speaker 2:Finally, because you've literally put together and encapsulated all of what I was going to ask. I only have one question left for you. You'll be pleased to know, and it's the question that we ask all our guests in these podcasts, which is how do we move the boat fast, how do we make the boat go faster? which, believe me, took me a long time to actually understand what that statement was, as an autistic person, but I'll explain it in terms that I actually understand. It's basically how do we imagine a world in the future where many of the problems and issues that we've discussed in this conversation don't exist anymore, and what can we do to begin to make that world a reality? So what can we do as a breaking this down? What can we do as a university? What is already happening within our institution, within our individual schools and faculties Moving forwards? what can we do within our communities collectively, so that we actually move towards that vision of the future where we live in an inclusive world that embraces all forms of neurodiversity and everybody gets an opportunity to shine?
Speaker 3:I will try to, because this is an obviously important, the most important question, usually the most applied question, but I think I can answer that one maybe. First of all, appreciation of the limitation of opinion that I have in here. I mentioned that I'm coming from an Eastern culture, iranian culture, and there is a famous Iranian philosopher, rumi, that has got a famous say that reality was a big mirror in the sky and it fell down and hit the floor and it became thousand pieces And each one of us have picked piece of this mirror, thinking that we have collected the entire reality. But that is not reality and we will be able to see the reality only if we put our pieces of mirror next to each other to be able to see the big picture. So when you ask that question from me, my answer is limited to just seeing my own lived experience, and I believe the proper answer should come out out of a lot of discussions of these lived experiences, to be able to find something that is collective picture of the reality. And I'm very, i'm very much proud of being part of that reality. And that's where these podcasts are also very useful, because it's giving us a more collective picture of the realities of lived experiences. My answer to your question is very limited to that piece of reality, right? So how do we go? how do how can we go? how can we, how can the boat go faster?
Speaker 3:I believe that, looking at my own experience and reflection of what has happened to me, i believe raising awareness and understanding of the neurodiversity is definitely the first step. We need to get to that point that we move beyond the notion that I know your world, i know who you are. That is not correct. I don't believe that we are in that point that we know each other's world, while it would be a fantastic step to try to understand each other's world, but there must be appreciation of the fact that we all live in the world that are very unique and for neurodiverse people, is doubly unique. If we move to that particular realm, i believe that then the next step would be understanding an awareness of the neurodiversity. When we get to that point, we might be able to come to that realization that all approaches in here might not be fitting to those systems that we are used to to produce for big groups of the individuals in the society. We are basically going to be working towards the systems that are supportive of well-being but, at the same time, personalized enough to support neurodiversity.
Speaker 3:How can we go faster? Currently, within the faculty, we have got faculty enabling Twitter's that are fantastic colleagues that are supporting or individuals with learning disability. We have got faculty hubs that individuals with learning disability would be able to talk to their you know or a student support teams to be able to find the support available. We have also got within the faculty individuals who are able to mentor and support and provide lived experience support, because they're coming from the same background for our students. So these are all fantastic.
Speaker 3:How can we go further? I believe that the more that we talk about the diversity within neurodiversity, the more that we talk about the lived experiences, we will be in the position to raise the awareness of the complexity and the diversity in neurodiversity and raising the awareness of the fact that this requires some very caring and very careful collaborative planning. The top-to-bottom approaches are not going to work in here. The solutions that are packaged, i don't believe that are going to help here. This is more about a collaborative understanding that would be between the neurodiverse individuals and the rest of the world to be able to come to that realization of the fact that this has that neurodiversity has got a major contribution to life, has got a beautiful contribution to life and in order to protect this extraordinary, wonderful contribution, you need to invest in understanding, you need to invest in raising awareness, you need to invest in personalized strategies, in personalized solution. I appreciate that this requires a lot of commitment. That's my answer.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much, farzad. Thank you so much for all of your input into today's session, your brilliant way that you've actually articulated everything today and how you've summarized everything so beautifully. Thank you for being my guest today. I think we've reached a natural end to the conversation, albeit one that a conversation, i feel, could literally carry on for much, much, much, much longer several hours, several days in fact but whether anybody would be prepared to sit here and listen to it is another thing.
Speaker 2:But can I just say once again, once more, thank you so much and to everybody listening that this is one of many, as I said, a series of podcasts in this series around neurodiversity. So for more episodes from this series, please visit our website, which is wwwwlvacuk forward slash neurodiversity. On that page there is a stream for all of the podcasts in this series, but also there's a series of talks that we've also had focusing on different aspects of neurodiversity, which are all there, which are where you can actually sort of like literally watch them and view them in your own leisure. So please do so. So thank you once again for our Zad. Thank you, Thank you, everybody, for listening.
Speaker 3:Thank you. Thank you.