The Fight Against Racism in the NHS: A Toolkit for Transformation

Are you ready to challenge your understanding of racial discrimination in the healthcare sector? In an unflinching and insightful discussion, our special guests, Michelle Mello from NHS England and Dr Abbie Ford Barnes, our Head of School of Nursing, take us on a deep exploration of the essential document "Combating Racial Discrimination for Nurses, Midwives, and Nursing Associates". This potent tool, a product of partnership between NHS Confederation and the Nursing and Midwifery Council, has the potential to influence professional practice and provoke much-needed conversations - but only if we engage with it and put it into action.

As we unravel this complex issue, we confront the harsh reality of racism in the NHS. We dissect the role of this pivotal resource in validating the experiences of those enduring discrimination and its implications in higher education. The conversation gets real and raw as we advocate for the empowerment of students to voice their concerns. Far from being just talk, we examine how to turn words into actions, focusing on allyship and the responsibility we all carry to challenge racism - and the absolute necessity for systems that support those affected by it.

We believe in a future where every healthcare professional feels valued and has a sense of belonging. A future where the "Combating Racial Discrimination for Nurses, Midwives, and Nursing Associates" document helps create safer and more inclusive environments. Where confronting and combating racism in nursing becomes a collective responsibility, empowering change. Join us as we equip healthcare professionals to stand against racism and inequality, explore the role of allyship, and use this resource as a tool for transformation. This enlightening conversation is a must-listen for anyone interested in understanding and combating racial discrimination in the healthcare sector.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

We are recording this podcast at the home of the Wolverhampton University's multimedia journalism degree in the Alan Turing building on City Campus. The radio studio we are sitting in is kitted out to the same standards as places like the BBC4 Radio and Five Live. It was installed alongside two TV studios as part of the new Wolverhampton Screen School. If you want to pop in for a guided tour, to discuss booking the studios or to chat about the journalism undergraduate degree, just email the course leader, gamma Foyin. His address is gorin3 at wovacuk.

Speaker 2: 1:05

Hello and welcome to the Diverse podcast. Will it Make the Boat Go Faster? Today, I am delighted to be joined in the studio by Michelle Mello from NHS England. Hello, michelle, hi Adam and Abby Barnes, our Head of School of Nursing at University of Wolverhampton. Hi Abby, hi Adam, brilliant. Well, I've said who you are and your roles, but I always let our guests have their own instruction and tell us a little bit about yourselves. So, michelle, would you like to tell us a little bit about yourself?

Speaker 3: 1:30

Sure Thanks, adam. So I'm Michelle Mello. I'm a nurse. I've been in a nurse for 30 odd years now, coming up to 38 years. I'm from Liverpool as well. That's important to me. I'm a tiguerra. Obviously I'm a mother, grandmother, and I retired last year but returned to NHS England and I'm working there as a senior nurse advisor, specifically on a resource that we published last November, which is around combating racial discrimination in the nurses, midwives and nurse and associates.

Speaker 2: 2:01

Brilliant, and that's exactly why we're here today. So more of that in a second, but thank you very much. Thank you, and Abby, would you like to tell the listeners about yourself?

Speaker 4: 2:08

Hi. Yes, I'm Abby Fordham Barnes. I work at the University of Wolverhampton. I've been in higher education for over 20 years now. I'm also a registered nurse and a registered nurse educator as well, and I'm delighted to be here today to talk with Michelle about this really important document.

Speaker 2: 2:27

Yeah, brilliant. Thank you so much. Let's get straight into that then. So we have this resource again. Just give us the name of the resource, because I think it's important listeners may want to access that. We'll include a link in the description to the podcast as well, so people can access it.

Speaker 3: 2:43

So the document's called combating racial discrimination for nurses, midwives and nursing associates and it was published last November, november 22, and it was a partnership that we did with NHS Confederation and the Nursing and Midwifery Council. And I think we did that for a number of reasons the partnership with the NMC because we really wanted to root it in our professional code so it becomes part of what nurses, midwives and nursing associates should do in their everyday professional practice. And we worked with NHS Confederation because we wanted to make sure that we worked with and the resource was applicable to senior leaders across the NHS, whether they are nurses, midwives or you know other types of leaders. So we wanted to have that input and influence as well. So a partnership document published last November, aimed at registrants but applicable, I think, to learners, especially, picking up from some of the conversations I've had about some of the issues that learners face today in practice.

Speaker 2: 3:47

Yeah, absolutely, and I think that probably again we'll pick up on some of those things, but let's segue into that. So part of what we're here for today, beyond the podcast, is working with some of those learners and with staff as well, of looking at what they're. So I want to say implications, for I'm not sure that's quite the word, but the impact that how we enact this, because if any document is a, really I'd encourage any listeners to go and engage with the document. But Adler always one of my colleagues here Adler is our associate dean for 3Di and University talks about our inclusive framework and said the best of frameworks are frameworks at best. Same with the document. It's great if it sits there, but it has to be be be actioned, and so I'll be.

Speaker 2: 4:30

One of the things that we're doing today is is is working with a focus group and just thinking about what it means to us, and I know I say this all the time, but sometimes we have really good conversations off here, but we had a quick conversation before off there just about engaging with the document ourselves, of some of the things that really speak to us, to think it actually, yeah, there's something tangible that we can really enact on straight away. We were talking about do we provide, do we always provide spaces for those types of conversations? And I think already it's making us think, isn't it, of things that we can do to put that into action?

Speaker 4: 5:07

Yeah, absolutely, adam. I think that I was, like you say, off there we were having a conversation about, you know, some of the elements and the examples of best practice, which was really useful, and in particular, I picked up on about how to encourage those conversations about racism and anti-racism with all staff and students to gather their experience, to have that protected time for open conversations, and I suppose I would be interesting if you had any sort of other examples or recommendations as to how to implement that.

Speaker 3: 5:40

So I think you know to go back to your point, Adam, it's a really important point that it's it's a document is a document. It's about bringing it to life and implementing it. I think. I think we shouldn't forget. It's still important because it's the first type of document that talks about racism and professional practice in England for now. So from that point of view, it's a really important document because straight away, that means that this is an important subject that, as professionals, we have to pick up, recognise, exists.

Speaker 3: 6:09

First of all, and then do something about it. So I think, from that point of view, it's really important I think you know the way we're working to engage different organisations, different systems is to go and talk to them about how does this fit? Maybe, how does this fit with what you're already doing in this space? First of all, and if you're not doing something in this space, this document document can help and support you to do something that's tangible, because I think different organisations, different parts of the system, different employers are at different places with this agenda, and I think it's one of those subjects that can be uncomfortable and difficult for people to talk about, but unless we start to talk about it, nothing's going to change.

Speaker 3: 6:56

So I think, even if it's a catalyst for those conversations and, as you've said, even if it makes organisations think about, well, how do we create safe spaces for all staff to talk about this topic, not just staff who might experience racism, but staff who may know, witness racism as well and what is our role as leaders? What are the actions and the things that we need to do to make sure that we make our organisation a safe place for everybody to be? So I think that they're the types of questions that the resource starts to throw up. I think how different people take it and use it is up to those organisations, and different places are doing different things. So there's one trust actually in the West Midlands who have user resource and they've developed it as a framework across their whole organisation, so not just for nurses, midwives and nurse associates but for all staff, and they're just about to implement that and roll it out as part of a bigger EDI strategy. So I suppose it's whatever works for you guys really.

Speaker 2: 7:58

Yeah, and I think that's a really important message of that. This is it's a working document to be to be implemented. Regular listeners to the podcast will almost be sick of me, echoing what you've just said of all this type of work, and in particular, some anti-racism where it's, they requires us to be comfortable with being uncomfortable. These are uncomfortable conversations because we have to hear some things which are uncomfortable. They're even more uncomfortable for the people who are experiencing this, by the way, on a daily basis or they're experiencing it in some way. So I think, yeah, that's really important about facilitating those conversations.

Speaker 2: 8:38

I really like the fluidity or most of the document. Like you say, I think it's important to stand by the fact that the document exists. Therefore, it acknowledges that there's a problem. There can be no, no argument about that now. So the document not that we needed a document necessarily, but it does give validation to the fact, the experiences of people. I love the idea of an NHS trust taking this document on and I think one of the things that we're hoping to do today is. So it's drawing the, joining the doctors and it's our nurses and midwives and nurse practitioners are starting their journey with us and they have a foot in two very different camps. It's one holistic journey, but we've got HE and all everything comes from there, and then this practice. So what we're hoping to do today is begin to unpick of where do what's the impact for us in terms of HE and the provision that we have? Yes, capturing student voices and staff voices is going to be incredibly important.

Speaker 3: 9:46

Adam, can we go back to the point about? I think the denial of the problem is really important and I think that's why the document is so important, because I mean, even recently I was out in the shop and I got to talk to the person behind the table and she said, oh, you know, I used to be a pediatric nurse. And I said, oh, yeah, you know, I'm a nurse and I'm working. She said, oh, what do you do? And I told her about the resource and she looked at me and she said do you think there's a problem with races? And then in the NHS you just think to yourself yeah, you know there is a problem. So I think acknowledging that there is a problem is the first step and that's why this resource is important, because it actually says look, you know, this is an issue, what can we do about it? And I think that's important.

Speaker 2: 10:29

I think that is so true. I wonder sometimes, because the NHS number one is a wonderful institution, but then because it is diverse? I think there's this almost paradox, isn't it? People see a diverse organization. Therefore that's some type of utopia, and obviously we know that's not. That's not the case. I'm really with you that the first step in any improvement is acknowledging the problem. You said it's the first document of its kind in the country, which is hugely important, and I think that probably again speaks to the fact that you know the one trust in the West Midlands have taken this on board and saying that's going to be implemented into our strategy across the whole NHS piece, I think even from an HE point of view.

Speaker 2: 11:19

Again, coming to some of the conversations we've had, just in the way that we engage with each other, I'd be professionally and everything else. It is about that, isn't it? Thank you, yes, we do. You said earlier, michelle, different places, organizations, different parts of the journey. There are some cases where we are really committed to the work as a university. There's no doubt about that. But we also have to hold our hands up and say there is a long way to go. I don't think there is a finished point. By the way, I think we'll always be learning there. But yeah, that's some of what we want to do is use this document to shape the future of you know, are we holding? So yes, we acknowledge problems to a point. I think this document is going to help us solidify those thoughts and actions some more. Would you agree, abbey? Do you think that's going?

Speaker 4: 12:06

to. Yeah, I think there's some really good working examples in there as well, isn't there Probably our learners could look at and help them have those sometimes difficult conversations that we're talking about? I think the one thing from a learner perspective is that they are quite often in an area where they're being assessed, so there is that fear of any repercussions to themselves as an individual and about how we really ensure and empower our students that they can raise and escalate concerns to appropriate people within the organisation and follow the policies as well. But I think it's a good tool and there is some working examples. I don't know whether you've got any further guidance or recommendations to support that learner journey really.

Speaker 3: 12:52

Well, obviously the resource, when we published it, was aimed at registrants, but it has picked up with learners since the publication. So part of what I'd like to see happening is the partnership that will happen today, where we can start to have those conversations and see, is the more that we need to do to support learners in practice? And the answer almost definitely is yes. It's about what's going to be the most helpful thing and the most practical thing, and I think what the resource has done is triggered that question, which is a good question to have. But, adam, again to go back to your point about how could you use the resource, and I think there's two ways that you could use it. So you can use it, you know, abby, you could use it as a internally, as a team, as an organisation, to think what are we doing in relation to this work. Let's have a look at some of the data from our students.

Speaker 3: 13:43

Let's look at attainment and the difference for our students who are black and white, because we know that white students tend to do better in education, and then there's something about looking at internal stuff and then, yes, working with your external partners, because, again, as you said, students are going into placements which are, you know, different organisations and they may feel pressure to behave and act in a certain way, and it's knowing that there is a safe space here at the university. Isn't it to come back and talk about things and for them to be heard and for action to be taken if it's appropriate, If they don't feel comfortable doing that themselves? It's about the relationship, then, with some of the. Is it like placement learning? What do you call your practice?

Speaker 4: 14:26

education staff.

Speaker 3: 14:27

Yeah, to take that back to the organisations. So I think there's some of the issues that I've heard as well when I've been going around. I think two things it's a holding a mirror to yourselves and then looking at how you're working with organisations as well.

Speaker 2: 14:42

Yeah, I think the document is a catalyst for change. Essentially, I've, you know, guide some of the thinking for us. You know, for myself and the role that I have and I know I'll be in the team and committed to that work it really shapes some of that. And then, going back to one of the things that you said before, michelle, which I think is really important, is that this document is not just for we group. We don't use the acronym BAME anymore, we use global majority.

Speaker 2: 15:13

If we're going to describe people of the global majority, I suppose which is always difficult when you're trying to group so many different people together it isn't just for global majority staff and global majority colleagues, practice, students and all those things. It's actually allyship is hugely important and I'm thinking with our HE lens on as well. That's a really important job for us to do. I always come out of these podcasts with some new learning in there and it seems I'm almost embarrassed to admit this, but I don't think I've really ever considered before of the weight and what I would expect of people. So, for students or people on racism, if you are experiencing it, if you hear it, then we're asking for a challenge for our allies, for people there and that in itself needs help and support and guidance sometimes to do that. So, yeah, that really strikes me that this document is for all, despite the fact it's addressing a specific problem.

Speaker 3: 16:20

Definitely, and I think, you know, I think the very people that need to do things to change the situation are not the people who are experiencing racism. It's the rest of the organisation and the system that needs to step up and change, you know, whether that's systems and processes or how it manages those incidents. So, yeah, the document is for all registrants because it's equally applicable to everyone.

Speaker 2: 16:49

Yeah, absolutely, and again, so it's really clear that you know racism is everyone's issue, which is hugely important, absolutely. I think I'm excited about the sort of the next stage that we have of sitting down, and already I suppose that the impact of the document for us is well one. You're here, michelle, you went on, I'm going to say like a tour of, but you've spoken to lots of different people, both in the higher education. Obviously, that's a separate piece of work to the bulk of what you've been doing, which has led us to moving on from there. Just talk to us a bit about then. So this document was created and your role, how, what's the reception been with within, within the NHS? And?

Speaker 3: 17:33

and trust so I think I think we're just doing a bit of evaluation actually, and NHS Confederation are doing that for us but I think as a document it's well received because, as you said, adam, it's, it's quite an easy document to look at and use. And then I'll say that not all NHS documents are it. You know, some of them are more complicated, but we deliberately wanted to make it something that people could look at and easily use and have some concrete examples, I'll be so it's not just words on a page so there are lots of links to different resources and videos.

Speaker 3: 18:08

So I think you know when I go and speak to networks of nurses, midwives and nurse and associates, whether they're in the NHS or independent sector, or indeed this today has come about as a result of me going to talk to the councillor, deans, I think it's well received. There's a bit of me that sometimes think, is some of that a bit performative? Because people say, yes, yes, this is a really important document and yes, we should be doing something about it. But I don't know how much that's always translated into practice and indeed we wouldn't have some of the issues we have today. What do we if you know people had stepped up and done something about?

Speaker 3: 18:47

this agenda before. So I think, generally well received. Like anything in the NHS, sometimes it takes a long time for things to trickle down, particularly to people who are given direct care. So for some people they won't know the document exists, but for other people they'll know it's there. They might take it and use it with the teams. So I think we've still got. It was November. I think we've still got a long way to go in terms of making sure it reaches everyone. It has gone out to all registrants via the NMC, but I don't know if everybody always looks at everything in their newsletter from the NMC. So I think a way to go still with engagement. So the more we can get people to talk about it, use it, implement it, the better.

Speaker 2: 19:32

I mean, it's right that it's infancy, isn't it? As a document, it has literally only just come out. One of the interesting points there that you picked up on, I suppose, is that you talked about that performance. So performance, about the allyship of things, it's a really interesting one. So my PhD studies nearly finished around the paradox of diversity, because I think sort of being within the big structures, organisations, institutions which uphold some of the barriers, working within them, it's always going to be paradoxical, it's always difficult. I suppose no one can turn around and say I don't believe in the document. The quality act always means that you cannot say that. So it's really difficult, I suppose, of actually going beyond words. Thinking within our own university again, adder is about to start. Next week is our inclusivity conference and that is actually the theme of that is moving beyond words Because, again, as a university look, the university is absolutely committed to this type of work there is also a huge amount of work to do, bit like the NHS.

Speaker 2: 20:42

You talked before about some of the issues awarding gaps and the whole host of issues. It is a challenge when there is a danger of performance, of being performative. However, suppose it's a danger you've got to overcome and make sure that you are being true and living to those things. I find it a challenge on a daily basis to ensure that it's such a tight route to walk, not just doing something, so it's performative. Obviously, I never set out with that intention, but there is always a danger with things and that's why it is so important. And again, looking to you, abby as well, one of the things that I find really great is that, straight away, you're keen, the team are keen, to go right. There's this document we want to do some work with that and there's introspection. I think it isn't just about going. We've already begun to reflect on some things that we could improve on, and that's really important.

Speaker 4: 21:45

Yeah, absolutely. I think that it has definitely triggered some thoughts, with myself being relatively new in post, I don't know. Adam and myself we're talking about how we create that safe space for staff all staff to meet to discuss these issues and then how we then move forward with and I think one of the recommendations within the document was looking at developing an action plan. So I think that's something that we would start, definitely from a staff perspective, with support of Adam, and then also then how we engage with our students to get our student voice and then also recognising that 50% of the programme is within the practice setting, so it's working with our practice partners as well, and I really liked the whole section about that sense of belonging and valuing others and enabling people to have a voice with that. So I think there's lots of really good examples there that, as an organisation and as a school, that we can move forward.

Speaker 3: 22:46

I think, adam. So I think your question was around how has it landed? And I think one of the difficult things is when you're working in the NHS or in health and care I shouldn't just say NHS, because obviously this is why the registrants work all over in different settings. It's about how do you get people to see this as a priority, because there are so many competing priorities and, abby, it was your comments actually that triggered this because, I mean, one of the biggest priorities we've got is around recruitment and retention and this is something that makes staff feel, you know, they do belong and they are valued, that their ideas, that their input is welcomed just as much as anybody else's. So I think trying to hook the work that you're doing around this as well into how does it help with some of the big priorities in the NHS is really important. So it will support staff health and wellbeing and that will improve, you know, certainly retention and recruitment to staff.

Speaker 2: 23:46

Yeah, I think so. As someone relatively new to health and the NHS and my background previously in education in terms of the primary early years and then into HG and still teacher training and eventually making this transition to a wider faculty, I think that one of the things that speaks to me when I read the document is almost scream yes, because it applies to. It isn't just about you know, you talked about the NHS and healthcare broader brush. You could actually just rebrand that society. It's a really good indicator for that as well, and I think that's one of the things that you say that we've got this huge issue with recruitment. We know that we've got huge targets to fill and, let's be honest, one of the most challenging professions and times to come into the profession that must be still in the midst of a global pandemic a whole host of other factors which are, you know, having an impact on recruitment. So I think you're right of that.

Speaker 2: 24:55

When you see this piece and again, this is, I think, maybe the cell isn't it from the performative thing to actually say look, whatever the reason is, and that we should hope that people just committed to this work because it's the right thing to do, but actually you can also be committed to this work because you need to get bums on seats.

Speaker 2: 25:12

We need to ensure that people feel valued in work, they are fulfilled in their work and this sense of belonging really, yeah, this piece of work really helps with that, and that belonging piece is something that comes through loud and clear, isn't it when you know we in university forget the faculty or anything else. That's a strand. It's part of Vision 2030. We know from the Vice Chancellor and all the things that come from that, a sense of belonging we just know as human beings. That's really important to us and I think, particularly when the NHS does have it's such an institution, I feel really proud to be in any way linked to the NHS and it's a very tenuous link, I have to say, but it's great to be involved in that because of the institution. That sense of belonging is so important in everything that we do. But, yeah, it really highlights the worry that some people don't have that sense of belonging to them. It is such a crucial and valuable document.

Speaker 4: 26:17

Yeah, absolutely, and I think, especially when you have students who go to different organisations. So we have students who travel across sort of the West Midlands to ensure that they meet the requirements of their professional programmes and I think within that there is different types of practices. So I think, again, it's about us working with our practice partners to ensure that students do have that sense of belonging and they are valued and they do feel psychologically and physically safe within that organisation and they can sort of raise concerns and those concerns are investigated and treated with respect and dignity. I think that's really really important from a learner experience.

Speaker 2: 27:04

Yeah, I was just saying that I think it really resonates with me that we've got and what you were saying before, michelle the NHS and healthcare is this broad brush. Number one it's so diverse and where all colleagues are the diversity of the work that they're doing. But even when we're talking about people who may be directly impacted by racial discrimination, that group is so wide and even when we just think about in the university setting for a second, we've got students from international students, we've got home students, people coming from across the country joining us, and all of those issues and things are equally important but they're not always the same things. Again, it's such a big piece of work and again, I suppose it speaks to Michelle, of what you said before, of that it's a journey and it's a long old journey to come along and this is just the start of and I think that's it. Catalyst for change is probably the right way to describe it.

Speaker 3: 28:09

Yeah, and I think we've got to remember that it's I think it's a third of registrants on the NMC register or from the global majority. So it's you know this is a significant proportion of our workforce who we want to make sure that we look after them and treat them well and that they do feel valued at work. So I think it's you know it's really important from a I know this is the policy type document, but it translates into the operational realm about having you know staff feeling safe at work, so that you know, if you think about it, even linking it to patient safety, if you're working in a team, you don't feel part of that team. When things go wrong and you need someone to have your back, do you feel you know you can say things. So it it's it's links to safety, I think as well. I mean it's about linking it to those priority areas. So it's not just recruitment and retention. I think it is about patient safety and staff being able to you know.

Speaker 3: 29:05

speak up, yeah.

Speaker 2: 29:07

And I think that really speaks to me. We've got this catalyst for change. So, first of all, recognizing the and acknowledging there's a problem from NHS England's point of view which is great, and then, through the NMC and the regulatory bodies, and then I think, yes, the next steps are that we are going to, whether that's as an NHS trust or whether, as us in HE, we're going to find ourselves in that uncomfortable position of having a mirror held up to ourselves at times. We've got some, some learning to do, but that that can only be good, because otherwise we weren't, we weren't beginning to address something. And I think as well, I'm really interested in in that piece of work and part of what I'm hoping to do in my role. And we've got the launch of a diverse as an initiative in the faculty, of some of the work we want to do externally with, with our partners across the faculty, but in particular the NHS. Like you say, we, the students, have a foot in in two different camps, which is a which I know Michelle is one of the the drivers for what we're doing today, but that's it's a lot, isn't it? I you know we're going to speak to some students soon, but I'd imagine there's.

Speaker 2: 30:18

There's one as the juggling of life. Let's not forget the the you know life and the fact that in the middle of a whole host of issues that life has been thrown up at the moment, then they're studying, then they've got to go along with that, the wrong practice and working and shifts, and wow, that and itself must be a challenge, and then, yeah, for adding that, extra barriers and layers on that. But this is an opportunity, then, for us to truly come together to collaborate around how we make things better. So, yes, we've got some work to do. We know in our own institution and we also know that all of our, our trust society as well.

Speaker 2: 30:59

This isn't just I've got a huge piece of work to do. But, again, as this catalyst to change, it begins to join the dots. We talk about silo working and I think I suppose one of the things this does is it helps to further facilitate these conversations between. We already have good relationships with practice partners, but this helps to facilitate that some of those conversations which potentially are more difficult to to to happen to here, and I think that's one of the key things that helps to facilitate those conversations with practice partners. Would you agree, abby?

Speaker 4: 31:35

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 4: 31:36

And I think one thing within the document which I found very useful was around if you witness anything and about the importance.

Speaker 4: 31:45

So that, going back to your point about it's everybody's responsibility, I think again to make sure that we come across with a very clear message that, again, if you witness anything or if you feel that you know you're uncomfortable with a particular situation, then it is about making sure that you're able to have those safe conversations and to be raised and escalate those concerns, and also with your practice partner, with your practice assessor or a practice educator, or come back to the university and have those conversations as well to ensure that you know those due processes are followed and you know from a starting point it's if you witness it as well as well as if you experience it. And then also what the other aspect of this document I liked as well was around some quite clear understanding about from a leadership perspective as well, which obviously I'm coming from that point of view. So I think it was really useful from those three sort of pronged approach I found really useful to help move this agenda forward.

Speaker 2: 32:48

Yeah, I think it's really really useful as well, yes, every thing that you're doing to help yourself and, I suppose, for us. What we want to do again is that because this document now exists, as we're training a new generation of nursing, midwives and other healthcare professionals. They, like you said before about this, might have dropped in and into all members of the NMC, but we all know busy people, I mean, and possibly no more busier than the nurses, midwives and healthcare practitioners. So this new generation may be coming through where they lived and read the document at this stage potentially has a longer lasting impact as they trickle into the profession, which I suppose is why we're here. Michelle, would you agree?

Speaker 3: 33:29

Yeah, yeah, and I think, again, abby, you know, the point you made about supporting learners who may witness something is really important because, I mean some of the learners. What they said to me is, well, they just don't know. They just don't know what to do, they don't know what to say. So, again, you know, as part of the curriculum, giving them the option of the experience, whether that's simulated activities or, you know, if, in this scenario, what would you, what would you do?

Speaker 3: 33:55

I think it's really important giving people the support to be able to do that, because it's one thing saying we've got this policy or this process, but actually if you see something that's upsetting, you know and it's already, you're in an environment that's already potentially quite stressful if you're not out in practice, you know what do I do, what do I say, how do I manage this, and letting people try that out and you know, get it right or wrong, I think is really important, and I don't know how much of that happens, but it's certainly something that learners have said they'd find useful.

Speaker 2: 34:27

Yeah, I think, you know, on reflection, I have to keep in mind myself of this. So I I'm on my own journey of, you know, identity, of learning around different things, but it's it. You know, I'm now enshrined with this type of work all the time and increasingly more confident to be that ally, that voice and all those things. But it's not easy for everyone. And we're asking people who are trained to do a new profession. They're going into a new place of work and let's, let's be honest, I know from when I was a teacher training, when I was on practice, you know it almost felt like it was a job interview. I've got to. Practice is the most. It's so important. I've got to get that right.

Speaker 2: 35:07

So if we're then asking people to feel empowered and emboldened to then challenge things, that is a huge ask really, in the midst of all those, it's a big ask of people who were already in the institution and organization for a whole host of reasons which I don't think you have to spell out it it. It shouldn't be a put you in a vulnerable position. I don't think anyone wouldn't feel vulnerable. You know, disclosing things like that they are, are challenging, but yeah, for our students, that's it. It's a, it's a big ask. I already, as I'm talking to you, I'm thinking well, of course they should be things that we similar, yeah, we simulate and and those things.

Speaker 3: 35:46

Like we practice consultation skills, don't we? There's lots of things that we, you know you do in simulation because it gives you the chance to like to make mistakes and get things wrong and learn. That's that's and develop, and that's the whole point. But I don't know how much we do that in this, in this agenda, you know, around these scenarios.

Speaker 2: 36:04

Yeah, again. So I I can't answer that fully yet in the in nursing, because I know that nursing is one of the places where simulation's done really well. So but just thinking again, across my roles, across the title, professional practice and all the things that we go into across the faculty and, yeah, beyond just nursing, even a, where do we sit, have those, you know, simulate those conversations and thinking, I always go back into an education point of view. So in schools, and we know that there are times where you will face racism, whether it's that you are the person listening to it, you respond into pupil parents or staff. Who knows? Do we have to be prepared people for that? Do we? I think?

Speaker 2: 36:49

I think we accept, we tend to think that the value set I come back to this idea and that we know that when it comes to various different inequalities and let's talk about racism, that racism isn't upheld by the extremes.

Speaker 2: 37:04

It's not the, you know, the, the, the national front, or any of those people that their outliers and they are a minority, sometimes local, but they're a minority.

Speaker 2: 37:15

Ultimately, racism is upheld because of well-intended, good-willed people who don't necessarily know what to do to stand up to some of those things and so empowering that is important but, like anything else Probably, is something that needs to be taught and empowered to do so. We can't just expected to happen by Osmosis, which, and yeah, and so building that into again, I suppose I'm thinking I'll be when we think about our Inclusive framework and some of those things. And one of those pillars is about and where am I in the curriculum, developing a sense of belonging? So whether this is about empowering you, as the ally, to be the voice, for that's incredibly important, but also for our students from the global majority To actually see I write, I not only am I being empowered to try and address some of this, but my colleagues, and it again it delivers that sense of belonging here in university. That transpires then into the NHS setting. So, yeah, as you can see, you probably actually see the Cogs where I keep thinking.

Speaker 3: 38:18

So one of the when I work in NHS England, I work with personalized care group and what they did to help clinicians practice their consultation skills so they were more personalized is they have them. They worked with the key actually university and they developed avatars. So you will go into it's online, so you don't have to you're not putting real people through anything and you go in and you practice your consultation skills on with a. It looks like You're in a consultation room with a person, although it's it's like a cartoon, and they give you feedback on how you've done in your consultation and how you could have done better or had you thought about this or had you thought about that, and that's kind of a really safe space because you can do it on your own if you want to, and that's a really could be a really safe space for students because they could try it. You know, something happens that this happens at work. What do you do when they work through the exercise and then they get feedback. I think things like that.

Speaker 2: 39:11

There are ways we can do it and definitely yeah, and so again, we we We've done a number of different pilots really successful, that school next in a really good example of where we've done specific pilots, looking at different things and just thinking, yeah, that's actually something that would be a really good thing to to To pilot, it could already be happening. But just tweaking that, that practice to to really do that because, like you say, it's not going to happen on its own I'm getting to the point in the podcast where the podcast is called will make the boat go faster and I ask our guests to come up with something that they can leave without this. There's something tangible that they might be able to go away the boat going faster, being society or the NHS or whichever. There's no right or wrong answer to this. I always waffle for a few seconds and minutes of the guests. Can they recollect their thoughts and thinking about things.

Speaker 2: 40:04

So, in terms of that and it can be pointing towards reading something or what be a call to action, michelle, I'm going to start with you in a second. So, as we come to the end of the podcast, is there anything you think our listeners could go away and do anything? Have listened to that conversation. I've got some thoughts. What are some of my next steps? What, what do you think will make the boat go faster?

Speaker 3: 40:27

So I think the resource can help make the boat go faster yes and it can certainly stop the boat from sinking.

Speaker 3: 40:35

So what I'd encourage anybody who listens to the podcast today is to to have a look at the resource, and it doesn't matter, as we've talked about, whether you're somebody who may witness racism or experience racism, or if you're in some sort of leadership role. There is something in there for you that will that might create a spark that will make you think about Okay, so what more do I need to go away and look at, what more do I need to learn and how could I build this into my revalidation, for example? You know how can I take an example in the shoes? I've really reflected and learned about the subject. So I'd encourage people to go away and have a look at, encourage people to think about making it part of the revalidation, but I'd encourage people to just be open, to learn more, to know that we do have an issue in the NHS and that everybody has a part to play in solving that issue. And you know, any change starts with me, starts with you starts with.

Speaker 3: 41:33

I so where the people that can make a difference.

Speaker 2: 41:36

Yeah, and I mean great course of action and great something to be able to tangible to do. I think some of what we're saying there is that we have to remove some of our fragility about that, isn't it? It's understandable. We feel that you know, as we're, we're passionate about our programs or NHS trust wherever we work and of course, we always want an equitable, but we know there is a problem to like, like you said, going to to read that document. So, just where I'm going to put the link into the description of the podcast, but just give us the full title of it in case someone wants to Google, search it and find it themselves.

Speaker 3: 42:09

So Google said just easy, if you put anti racism and nursing NHS, the document will pop up, but it's combating racial discrimination and nursing nurses, midwives and nursing associates.

Speaker 2: 42:20

Perfect. Thank you so much. That's great. So a really clear call to action there. Abby, I know I've got double, double bubble today so you're here as well, so no pressure. But if you have got something that you think might make the boat go faster, we'd love to hear it.

Speaker 4: 42:35

I think I'm really passionate about that sense of belonging, being kind to each other, being compassionate, and also, I think one thing that I've definitely learned over time is never, ever underestimate the impact you have on an individual, and that one moment in time could have a huge impact on somebody, absolutely and.

Speaker 4: 42:59

I think that's definitely a message that people need to really reflect on and I've got a number of examples. Coming back to work for the University of Wolverhampton, where we actually employ, a number of our previous students and staff have come up to me and told me about how I used to teach them and which has been really quite powerful message because I obviously had an impact and it's really made me also reflect on how important every contact counts really.

Speaker 2: 43:29

Yeah, absolutely so. There's a crossover of both of your calls to action there, and it's that starting with. I started with what can I do. I think that's always really important, and I think some of the conversation to have, either in the University of other places, or when we're going out to do external work and people talk about what is the culture of this or this happens Well, yeah, where the start of that the culture is it me, it's you, it's all of those people, and so starting with ourselves is crucially and vitally important. I think that's a wonderful message to leave on. So, abbie, thank you so much for taking time out of your day to come and join us. Thank you so much. You've been amazing. Michelle. Thank you for getting on the train and making the journey down. It's great to have another scouser on board, especially mixed heritage like me, so we're flying the flag. That's amazing. So, michelle, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for coming down, and I'm really excited about the work we're about to do together.

Speaker 3: 44:31

Thank you, adam, and thanks Abbie. It's been lovely to meet you yes, and you, thank you.

Speaker 2: 44:36

Thank you so much for coming to us and catch you next time. Thanks, everybody.