Have you ever pondered the power of a simple story? The kind that touches your heart and stays with you, long after the words have faded? Join us for a deep-dive into the potency of storytelling with our guest, Dr. Lalith Wijedoru, whose heartbreaking encounter with suicide inspired him to harness the power of narratives for healing and promoting wellbeing. Discover how tales, no matter how simple, can transform complex life lessons into relatable wisdom, even in the realm of public health.
In the second half of our conversation, we plunge into the often-unspoken world of men's mental health, focusing on the fear of suicide. We tackle how this fear can be tackled, the role the media plays in the narrative and the pressures that men face, like work-related concerns and financial stress, which can fuel a sense of failure. As we explore the theme of International Men's Day 2023, Zero Male Suicide, we realise the urgency of fostering an environment where such topics can be broached without fear or stigma. Join us on this journey together through this powerful conversation, guided by Dr Wijedoru professional expertise and personal experience that add a profound depth to these critical issues.
You can find out more about Dr Wijedoru's work by exploring his website www.behindyourmask.co
as well as following him on socials:
@lalithwijedoru (Instagram)
@LalithWijedoru (X/Twitter)
Follow us on Twitter
@UoWFEHW
@DIIverseHub
@VascoAdam
Have you ever pondered the power of a simple story? The kind that touches your heart and stays with you, long after the words have faded? Join us for a deep-dive into the potency of storytelling with our guest, Dr. Lalith Wijedoru, whose heartbreaking encounter with suicide inspired him to harness the power of narratives for healing and promoting wellbeing. Discover how tales, no matter how simple, can transform complex life lessons into relatable wisdom, even in the realm of public health.
In the second half of our conversation, we plunge into the often-unspoken world of men's mental health, focusing on the fear of suicide. We tackle how this fear can be tackled, the role the media plays in the narrative and the pressures that men face, like work-related concerns and financial stress, which can fuel a sense of failure. As we explore the theme of International Men's Day 2023, Zero Male Suicide, we realise the urgency of fostering an environment where such topics can be broached without fear or stigma. Join us on this journey together through this powerful conversation, guided by Dr Wijedoru professional expertise and personal experience that add a profound depth to these critical issues.
You can find out more about Dr Wijedoru's work by exploring his website www.behindyourmask.co
as well as following him on socials:
@lalithwijedoru (Instagram)
@LalithWijedoru (X/Twitter)
Follow us on Twitter
@UoWFEHW
@DIIverseHub
@VascoAdam
We are recording this podcast at the home of Wolverhampton University's multimedia journalism degree in the Alan Turing building on City Campus. The radio studio we are sitting in is kitted out to the same standards as places like BBC Radio 4 and 5 Live. It was installed alongside two studios as part of the new Wolverhampton Screen School. If you want to pop in for a guided tour, to discuss booking the studios or to chat about the journalism undergraduate degree, just email the course leader, gareth Owen. His address is gowin3 at wlvacuk.
Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to the Diverse podcast. Will it Make the Boat Go Faster? I am absolutely delighted today to be joined by Lalit Vijay Doru. However, before we start today and before I let Lalit introduce himself, I do want to put a trigger warning out. We are talking today about a very serious topic and we're talking about the topic of suicide. On international men's day, as, in particular, suicide is a really delicate and sensitive topic, it's important to highlight. The discussions that we're going to take place will be of a sensitive and emotional nature. For people themselves who have attempted suicide or know someone who has attempted to take their own life.
Speaker 2:The content of this podcast may be indeed a triggering. So before continuing to listen, please do consider if you are feeling vulnerable around that and whether the topic of this episode is suitable for you. At this point, I would also like to sign post towards the Samaritans contacting on 116 123, suicide Prevention UK on 0800 689 5652. And I'm going to include those that information in the podcast description and we'll be bringing it back in at the end as well. So, although it is a really serious topic, it is a hugely important one and I'm delighted, lalit, that you've been able to join us today. It's a topic I have to say it does exactly as all important discussion should, and settles me, because it's not my area of expertise All lived experience at all and so I'm absolutely delighted to have you with us today and to guide you through this really important conversation. But before we do that, we'd like to introduce yourself to our listeners, please.
Speaker 3:Hi. So thanks very much, adam, for all that important trigger warnings. So, as you say, it's a very sensitive and delicate topic and I'm so glad that you've given us these trigger warnings. So I'm Dr Lalit Vijay Dhoru. My background is I was a pediatrician in the health service for nearly 20 years and I worked in emergency departments, so I was an A&E pediatrician in the NHS.
Speaker 3:I've had a career change and I now work in staff well-being and I work full-time using stories in the workplace to help staff become more connected and to normalise their emotions around, particularly around, the emotional traumas of work. And so there are many reasons why I'm so delighted that we are speaking about this difficult topic, because when we do storytelling in the workplace, a lot of the things that we talk about are uncomfortable, and I think it's very important that we have delicate conversations and create psychologically safe spaces where we can talk about these things. And, of course, the motivation for me speaking to you is, as you said, international Wednesday and International Wednesday 2023, the theme is zero male suicide, and I'd like to give a personal anecdote that when we talk about people setting up businesses, there's often a strong why to your business and one of the strong whys of my business about doing storytelling to support staff in any organisation, not just in the healthcare sector, was actually a family friend. A family friend, a family who come from south-west of England, and the story is that of a junior doctor, a junior doctor called Simon who unfortunately took his own life at the age of 34. And I've known the family for a long time and Simon's death took place when I was a consultant, pre-pandemic and, of course, when the pandemic happened and realising just how much emotional trauma that our staff were going to go through.
Speaker 3:This was the start of what won the start of my journey in terms of wanting to do storytelling to support staff wellbeing. So this is an issue that is very close to my heart because it's affected me and my social network and it is something which is directly relevant to my expertise and, of course, having worked in a children's emergency department. Our staff have seen lots of harm that have come to people and a lot of the mental health issues that affect children and young people are deliberately self-inflicted. And this is just the tip of the iceberg of a huge problem in children and young people and eventually, adult mental health, and so, unfortunately, we have seen children who have taken their own lives in our emergency department and, of course, people who work as first responders in the police, the general public or the emergency services in the adult sector will also experience, may come across people who have taken their own life.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think, first and foremost, the response to that is just to send heartfelt condolences to your own loss, to the loss and the family of Simon as well, and I'm sure he would be inspired by the fact that you are using this platform to be able to spread awareness. I'd like to go back to a couple of points, first and foremost, so the vehicle of story and the power of story. Then I assume that is around the fact that we find it easier as human beings to make sense of life through story. Would you agree?
Speaker 3:I agree, I think there can be many. We always talk about what, as a pediatrician, we teach our children through stories. There is often a character or a series of characters. We understand what their journeys are and the circumstances that affect them. We empathize with the crises or the challenges that they face and we celebrate and rejoice and campaign for them when these hurdles are overcome.
Speaker 3:And if we think about the messages of life that we can give our children through stories, I think stories are remarkably economical in conveying complex messages in very simple ways. And if we look at public health messages, I mean I always used to admire how soap operas, which have a huge TV following in all countries, and if you think about somebody dying of cancer, somebody who smokes, drink, driving, all of these things you see, feature in soap operas, because complex messages given in economical ways, given a human format, are very, very relatable. So, absolutely, I think that we can learn from each other, but not just learning from each other in story, but reflecting on our own stories, yes, and that can be a very powerful tool as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. I think that reflecting is really linked into the next point. So I have to be really honest and open here and say that previously I have not fully understood the value of International Men's Day and I've been too quick and in retrospect to think of it as being well, you know, men are full of privilege and advantage and obviously when framed in this way in particular, he's talked about the theme for this year being zero suicide, such an important topic and again, the fact it draws a highlight to this topic, Talk us about some of the statistics, then, around men's suicide in particular.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So I agree that a lot of people, you know you're not alone in thinking why do we need an International Men's Day? And you know, if we think about men, I think that what Men's Day is trying to do is to look at kind of health, so you know, men's specific health, so, for example, prostate cancer, and then, of course, there's men's mental health, and again, the challenges facing men and mental health are different. And so just to give you the kind of. So, going back to men's health, if you think about what is the biggest killer of men in the UK across all ages is ischemic heart disease, like the heart attack, and so, of course, people talk about cholesterol and diet and exercise and smoking, all and genetics, all as risk factor for heart disease and, of course, stress as well. So heart disease is the common biggest killer of men in the UK across the board, all ages. But in men under 50, and in men under 35, the leading cause of death is suicide, and if we look at the Office of National Statistics in the UK, which covers data from England and Wales in 2021, three quarters of all suicides in the UK are men, and so I think this is a very stagnant statistic. So I think this is very important, why International Men's Day needs to highlight zero male suicide as a proper theme.
Speaker 3:The other thing to think about is, you know, the take, a message that I want to say is that suicide, there are many causes and there are many risk factors for suicide.
Speaker 3:But these causes and risk factors, they are multifactorial, they are complex and they are cumulative and, as in you know, we can't attribute one single event or one single risk factor.
Speaker 3:It is an absolute, complex interplay between your life, your genetics, your circumstance, your experience, and so that is a very important thing to think about. But in terms of thinking about the common risk factors or the common associations with suicide, over half of those men who died by suicide, they are experiencing economic adversity. Many of them are unmarried or single, so we have to think about social connection. Many of them have had a background of misusing alcohol or drugs, so there has been some downward spiral. Many of them have been associated with or having experienced a recent bereavement, and then, of course, many have facing themselves chronic physical or mental health challenges, and so you can see that they're, you know, it's a combination of economics, of your genetics, of your health, of your social relationships. Interestingly, in the UK suicide attempt rates of men from the LGBTQ plus community are 10 times higher than in the general population. So this is a very important kind of association to consider and gone Sorry.
Speaker 2:No, sorry. So I was about to say so I suppose all of that I'm so sorry for interjecting and interjecting there. It comes back to the point that suicide is preventable when we think about so, if we if let's use that LGBTQ plus statistic, I don't think it's making a leap to say that it will be the experience, therefore, of being from part of a marginalised group that is directly led to that. And of course, that's why, when we think of matters of inclusion that, yes, important for a whole host of reasons, that they cannot be more important when we talk about a matter of life or death. But the suicide is preventable, lalla, isn't it, if society does more, which I assume is why we have this focus for International Men's Day, because there are things that we can do to help support people through these difficult times, as you talked about their adverse childhood experiences and adult events, housing, economics and those things. We can do some things to help there, surely and I'm so sorry for interrupting as well- no, I'm very glad that you mentioned about that.
Speaker 3:Suicide is preventable and Thanks everyone. And I think that a very strong theme, as many psychologists and psychiatrists will agree, is that you know, culturally, when it comes to male gender stereotypes, men are less likely to come forward and ask for help, and so there is a great reluctance to speak up, and it's a major barrier to men seeking help. And I think one of the major findings of reports that are looking back at suicide is that when men seek help for mental health issues, you know that is a strong warning sign. You know there must be good quality of support for a man who is seeking help with their mental health issues. And this can be very much related to this very traditional gender stereotype of male infallibility.
Speaker 3:And I know lots of people talk about things like toxic masculinity, and for me, a definition that I use for myself is, I think, that toxic masculinity is basically a denial that men are human and are fallible, that we're not infallible and that men can be vulnerable.
Speaker 3:And unfortunately, the traditional male gender stereotypes in the West and in many other cultures is that showing your vulnerability is equated to being weak.
Speaker 3:Yes, and so there can be many reasons why a man may be reluctant to share their emotion and emotion when I don't say you know, emotions can include everything from joy and happiness and anger right through to despair, anguish and grief, and so it's those anguish, grief, sadness, those type of emotions Many men are worried about showing out in public because they are worried that it might affect their reputation. It might affect their career progression, perhaps, or their status within a group or a family. And so, again, going back to gender stereotypes, there may be a cultural expectation for men to be the providers, in terms of including financial provision for partners and families, and this is not a disrespect to the changing social economics of gender equality and gender pay but there is a traditional gender stereotype of men being the provider and providing financially, and so toxic masculinity, combined with this fear of failure, they're almost egging each other on, and so I think that there's a very important topic to be spoken about in terms of men's perception of failure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's again. Whenever I have guests on and talking to you, the cogs are whirling round and there are people I'm thinking of. I need to join you due to what we hosted an event a while ago and a gentleman, young man, jamie was hosting mandem meetups in Wolverhampton, and essentially, I suppose really at the root of that, it's addressing some of those things, so that where men may find it difficult to talk about things of breaking down the barriers, of yes, it's important to talk and be able to open up about, as you say, feelings, taking a whole range of things, but being able to challenge that notion of toxic masculinity. I think your definition was perfect there. I can think, in Liverpool, I know of a group of male runners who are meeting to talk and essentially, it is talking. Do you think there is progress?
Speaker 2:This notion of talking, then? Because I think that I said right at the outset, it's not in my area of expertise and I am normally pretty good at facilitating and modelling being uncomfortable, being uncomfortable, when I actually thought about our conversation today, though this is one of those topics that it's one of the few that I fear. I worry about having that conversation, do you think, because it can be triggering and because is that? It? Is that one of those vicious circle things of the fear of not talking, about making something more typical, or is that a common issue? Do you think that the fear of talking shuts down some of the vital conversation around this type of this area, this really important area of zero service?
Speaker 3:I think you raised a really important point. I think lots of people walk this tightrope. On the one side, we want to reduce stigma. There are lots of conditions that are associated with stigma. Mental health in general is still a very stigma taboo topic. Sexual health, hiv status these are all very taboo subjects still and there's a lot of stigma around it. But things are changing and things are improving. So of course, we need to talk about issues in order to reduce that stigma.
Speaker 3:But yet, when it comes to things like suicide, there is also this fear, and understandably a fear, about triggering what we call imitational behavior, because by talking about suicide, if we talk about it in specific details for people who are feeling vulnerable, it might actually encourage or trigger people to take their own life. So I can give the example about the relevance and the importance of the media and how media report cases of suicide, in particular, celebrity suicides. You may know the statistic that when high profile celebrities like Whitney Houston and Robin Williams their deaths were associated with self-inflicted behaviors and taking their own life, in the United States in particular, the number of suicides rose after the reporting of those two celebrity deaths exponentially, and so this is why I want to highlight this thing, about this fear, about triggering imitational behavior and, of course, the role of us as individuals, but also of the media, in reporting them. So again, just some suggestions which I've taken from my media. Training is about when you are talking about suicide, it's important not to focus on or to sensationalize the method or the manner in which somebody had taken their own life, and there is this, as you can imagine, very perverse curiosity about this, and so I think it's important not to focus on that, and so you probably noticed, when I talk about suicide I'm not going to talk about how people have done it.
Speaker 3:The other thing that is important is not to state specific locations of a tragic event, because again that could become a focus or almost a romantic idealization of this tragedy and again lure or draw people to that, and so there are particular points that have commonly been locations where people have taken their life. The other thing is not to reinforce almost the, dare I say, the word success of the success. So, for example, the death was quick, or the death was easy or painless or effective. I think it's very important not to reinforce this, because nobody knows, and in fact that person may have been undergoing quite significant suffering in their death. And again, you may have that in headlines, maybe using the words things like taken his or her or their own life as a rather sensationalist word of suicide.
Speaker 3:And so, and I think, another very important point, is that we should be steering clear of suggesting that suicide, that what happened, that this death, was an understandable response to a crisis or adversity, which takes me back to our original point Suicide is preventable. There are many crises and many adversities, of which they are complex, multifactorial and cumulative, that many of us, as humans and men, face, but with support and with help, suicide is preventable.
Speaker 2:And is there a maybe sounds ridiculous, but I'm depending on all of that. In terms of causes, which are multifaceted, Is there a common theme that runs through that? Do you think around effecting men's health in particular? I suppose not necessarily suicide, but we know that you said that health is linked to that. I think it mentioned before that failure is something that really comes out as a common thread that runs through things.
Speaker 3:I mean it's interesting. So, if I can quote a statistic, when, when they've done some research. So the Priory, the Priory is a big organization that looks at the kind of more severe spectrum of mental health and with a survey of 1000 men, they looked at the pressures. What are the pressures that face men? And the two highest pressures? One is work related pressure and the second are financial and so, again, this kind of you know, these dominant themes of pressures of work and succeeding in your career, but also succeeding financially in terms of being able to provide for yourself, your loved ones, your family, your descendants. These are the strong pressures and so, again, this, going back to this whole perception of failure, I think this is this is a really important, important theme.
Speaker 3:And just to illustrate the financial pressures, I mean just this week I have had had a very good friend of mine who works in Yorkshire. He runs a catering establishment and unfortunately he was broken into and his cash box was stolen from the premises. The culprit was caught on CCTV and my friend releases to the police and also put this on his social media trying to find the culprit and unfortunately the two people identified the person who was in the video, including the ex partner, and, unfortunately, the culprit had taken their own life. And the background was that this is somebody who was normally fit, well, healthy, with a partner and child, but unfortunately got involved in drugs and alcohol addiction and was experiencing severe financial pressures and was contacting all of their friends in order to ask for money, and this theft was one of a series of tests that this that the deceased had undertaken, and so this is just an illustration just this week about financial pressures and fear of failure and can lead to men taking their own life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean again. It really resonates and I think I know from having a conversation that you mentioned Simon at the start of this podcast. I know you've spoken to the family and you have permission to maybe share his story with us and does it feel like that's an appropriate thing to do? Yeah, I mean absolutely.
Speaker 3:And so I just want to give thanks to my friends and their families for speaking to me about this, and they want to share Simon's message. And, of course, this relates to the why of my business, because what I hear from healthcare professionals are the emotional traumas of their work. And so Simon, very early on in his career, in his first year as a qualified doctor, he was part of a team working in the emergency department and doing a major incident. Now, on bonfire night it was on November the 5th and unfortunately he was involved in looking after the aftermath of a significant motorway parlour involving over 10 vehicles, and so he had to encounter a high volume of patients with life-changing injuries and, in a short space of time, deal with quite horrific injuries and communicate with families and relatives and telling people that people had died, including children, and so you can imagine what the impact that would have on a young junior doctor. And so later on in his career, he started throwing himself into work Like he was balancing two medical jobs. He wanted to save money for a house and he had a career crisis and initially he was doing orthopedic surgery and decided to switch to general practice and relocated back to the county where his parents lived and unfortunately he was signed off work with stress and he attended counseling. He sought help and had intensive mental health interventions and primary care support and the symptoms that he had. He had reported poor sleep but, importantly, he had reported some flashbacks to that motorway pile-up event and, in terms of Simon's spiral, he unfortunately developed a mild gambling addiction. He had increased alcohol consumption, took some prescription medication and unfortunately took his own life after a downward spiral.
Speaker 3:And having spoken to Simon's father, he raised this whole concept about failure, that he felt that failure in men should not be considered a bad thing, like he described his son as a high-achieving, affectionate, stressy around exams.
Speaker 3:I mean, his brother described him as very competitive, very driven, and so the theme that I feel is that when somebody who is a high achiever and many people in the health care profession are high achievers when things go wrong, how do you deal with it? How can we create spaces so people can express how they are feeling and show their vulnerability? And not only do you have to think about support for communities, including groups of men, but there also needs to be kind of high-level support for individuals. And it's interesting that you talked about uncomfortable conversations. Simon's brother said that we need to dive into these conversations with other men, that we need to be brave and courageous and embrace this level of discomfort. And when he thinks about his own brother, how do men like his brother high-achieving, driven, competitive, how do they deal with failure or uncertainty? And his brother quoted saying how can we discover the joy in just being average?
Speaker 3:Yeah absolutely so. I think it's a really important. So it's a very different type of pressure, a very different type of and this is a work-related pressure and the traumas that we face in our daily working lives.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much and thank you to Simon's family for allowing you to share that Really powerful. I think those takeaways and especially as his brother, the words of his brother really resonate there of, yeah, the celebration of being average, you know, of course, maybe even more amplified with social media and us all aspiring to norms that probably don't exist, I'm sure put a huge pressure. But I've learned so much around this idea that failure is underpinning and actually, as I said, my own thinking being challenged around the importance of having time to talk about these things and certainly embracing the discomfort. I've also learned quite a lot around the use of language.
Speaker 2:I suppose that's one of the things that's made me feel most uncomfortable about having those conversations the fear of getting something wrong when, of course, actually there's far more to go wrong from not having the conversation at all. We're coming towards the end of our conversation. I just wondered whether it might be worth just it's been a lot of information to sort of take there as final thoughts and things to take away for listeners. And again, it has been a really it's been a great conversation but, of course, a tough one. What words would you leave with our listeners as we close, bring our conversations to a close.
Speaker 3:I would say that I think the take home messages are that suicide is preventable. I think it's important to appreciate that suicide, the causes and risk factors, suicide are complex, multifactorial, cumulative time, so there are lots and lots of triggers. I think we should be very careful about the way we describe and report suicide in terms of not triggering imitational behavior. I think it's important that we recognize traditional gender male stereotypes and the type of pressures that men put upon themselves, including financial pressures, work pressures, and that all is entwined with this sense of failure and perception of failure. And we should give credit to all these groups that you mentioned, adam, people like Andy's man club and these talking groups and men's group that do very valuable work in giving spaces, psychologically safe, spaces where men can talk about their emotions and so, again, challenging the stigma around men's mental health and creating spaces where men can talk about things, including failure, and challenging the cultures of toxic masculinity.
Speaker 3:And one thing we've not mentioned, but I just like to before read, is that when we think about the impact of suicide, we think about the people, the person who has taken their life, we think about the people that they have left behind, including their friends, family and loved one and colleagues. But the other people that we need to think about, and particularly coming from the health service, are people who are the first responders, people who have to deal with people who have taken their life and, remembering that these people are human, that include fire, police, military and health services, even social care, and we need to think about that. The impact of a suicide and somebody taking those lives can reach up to 125 people and not all of them will have known the deceased. So, in terms of looking out for each other and for those of us who do have to deal with death, mortality, bereavement, that the effects and impacts of suicide can be very wide ranging.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm so glad that you mentioned that. Actually, I know a number of friends and colleagues who have been impacted in such ways as first responders, and when you talk about the number of people that can reach, of course, as soon as you say that, it becomes abundantly clear. I think for me, and I hope for some of our listeners, that it has really made me think and challenge myself not to be so flippant when I think about. I think particularly because I do work within the DEI sector and so I am aware of my privilege and so I'm quick to which absolutely exists. So I am quick, as a say, to say well, the things we do in the International Men's Day.
Speaker 2:There's a mention recently of whether we need a minister for men, and this conversation has really made me think about actually it's crucial we have these conversations. It's made me really challenge and think about those things, how I can advocate and amplify. It's hugely important. So I want to say a massive thank you to you for coming on today and sharing personal experience, your expertise. I hope we're going to get to you back on soon. I know that's planned for some other conversations, but, as we said at the outset, a really triggering topic, an important topic to talk about. If anyone is affected by these issues, please do make sure that you do Contact and reach out and talk to someone, of which, of course, there are support services, not limited to, but including the Samaritans, which contact Blum 116123 and the Suicide Prevention UK on 0800 6895652. I'd like to leave final words over to you and thank you so much for coming on and joining us today, and a huge thank you as well to Simon, his family and all those impacted by suicide.
Speaker 3:Thank you very much. International Men's Day 2023, the theme is Zero Male Suicide and I think for all of us men, women, whatever your pronoun I think it's very important that we listen to each other, recognize each other and give us spaces and spaces to talk. Thank you.