We are back bigger than ever after a brief hiatus.
Ever found yourself adrift in the sea of social cues and expectations, wondering why the simplest interactions can sometimes feel like a high-wire act? University of Wolverhampton student Caitlin Fenton joins our host Julian Gwinnett on a journey of introspection and revelation, as we peel back the layers of the autistic experience, particularly the nuanced ballet of social interactions. From the dread of self-introductions to the labyrinth of "appropriate" responses during small talk, we bare our souls in a quest for understanding and acceptance. We also ponder the potential of physical tools, like lanyards, to transform how we navigate social spaces, championing inclusivity and mutual respect.
The mask we often wear isn't just about hiding our identity; it's a survival tool in a world that sometimes seems built for everyone else. In a series of candid dialogues, Caitlin and Julian explore the concept of 'masking', where we share the emotional labor of fitting into societal molds and the toll it takes on our mental health. The conversation takes a turn to embrace the diversity within the autism spectrum, discussing gender's influence on diagnosis and the personal odysseys of those discovering their autistic identities amidst a backdrop of historically skewed perceptions.
This episode isn't merely a confession; it's a celebration of the autistic identity in all its complexity and vibrancy. We embrace how autism shapes our humor, our passions, and our remarkable potential, often underestimated by the wider society. We close with a hopeful vision, celebrating the environments that adapt to and support autistic needs, and a rallying cry for empowering autistic voices. Through these shared stories and reflections, we're not just seeking empathy; we're advocating for a future where neurodiversity is not just accepted but valued for the rich perspectives it brings to our collective table. Join Caitlin and Julian in this heartfelt exploration, as they reimagine a world that sees the autistic experience not as a footnote, but as a central chapter in the human story.
Allow them to reintroduce themselves...
Follow us on Twitter
@UoWFEHW
@DIIverseHub
@VascoAdam
We are back bigger than ever after a brief hiatus.
Ever found yourself adrift in the sea of social cues and expectations, wondering why the simplest interactions can sometimes feel like a high-wire act? University of Wolverhampton student Caitlin Fenton joins our host Julian Gwinnett on a journey of introspection and revelation, as we peel back the layers of the autistic experience, particularly the nuanced ballet of social interactions. From the dread of self-introductions to the labyrinth of "appropriate" responses during small talk, we bare our souls in a quest for understanding and acceptance. We also ponder the potential of physical tools, like lanyards, to transform how we navigate social spaces, championing inclusivity and mutual respect.
The mask we often wear isn't just about hiding our identity; it's a survival tool in a world that sometimes seems built for everyone else. In a series of candid dialogues, Caitlin and Julian explore the concept of 'masking', where we share the emotional labor of fitting into societal molds and the toll it takes on our mental health. The conversation takes a turn to embrace the diversity within the autism spectrum, discussing gender's influence on diagnosis and the personal odysseys of those discovering their autistic identities amidst a backdrop of historically skewed perceptions.
This episode isn't merely a confession; it's a celebration of the autistic identity in all its complexity and vibrancy. We embrace how autism shapes our humor, our passions, and our remarkable potential, often underestimated by the wider society. We close with a hopeful vision, celebrating the environments that adapt to and support autistic needs, and a rallying cry for empowering autistic voices. Through these shared stories and reflections, we're not just seeking empathy; we're advocating for a future where neurodiversity is not just accepted but valued for the rich perspectives it brings to our collective table. Join Caitlin and Julian in this heartfelt exploration, as they reimagine a world that sees the autistic experience not as a footnote, but as a central chapter in the human story.
Allow them to reintroduce themselves...
Follow us on Twitter
@UoWFEHW
@DIIverseHub
@VascoAdam
We are recording this podcast at the home of Wolverhampton University's Multimedia Journalism degree in the Alan Turing building on City Campus. The radio studio we are sitting in is kitted out to the same standards as places like BBC Radio 4 and 5 Live. It was installed alongside two studios as part of the new Wolverhampton Screen School. If you want to pop in for a guided tour to discuss booking the studios or to chat about the journalism edition of the Diverse Hub here at the University, of Wolverhampton.
Speaker 2:My name is Julian Gwynnett. That's possibly the first time I've ever introduced myself on this podcast. It's something I don't normally don't do because I always forget or because actually it's something that I don't feel very comfortable doing, and the reason I'm having this conversation with you right now is because I'm joined by my studio guest today, caitlin Fenton, who, like me, is also an autistic person, and before we actually started recording, we were having a very interesting conversation about why introductions are so difficult for autistic people people. So normally we would begin this conversation by I would begin this conversation by handing over to my guest and asking them to talk about themselves, to introduce themselves. But if you ask an autistic person, what do you do? That's really likely to actually confuse them in so, so many ways ways. So why is that, caitlin?
Speaker 3:I think it's because it has so many possible answers that it's hard to just pick one, because I do many different things. Which one do you want to know about, and and why? You know what kind of answer am I going to give you? And I think I think it's really hard because then you've got so many. If you think of it as like one of those animated big bubbles with lots and lots of words spinning around, it's like I could pick any, and then they get faster and faster and faster and you have to try and pick one in a certain amount of time and then you just kind of explode and you don't know which one to pick and the function doesn't go through, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:That makes perfect sense. And going back to what I said earlier about introductions, is this something that you find challenging If you're in a situation where, say, for instance, the worst case scenario for me would be if I get invited to a social event, particularly if it's somebody I know if it's a friend's birthday party, for instance, and almost everybody there is somebody I've never ever met, never ever met. And I imagine for most people this is a brilliant opportunity to meet people and they would be really, really excited about this prospect of going to a social event where they can get to meet lots of new people. But for me personally, this is like one of the most challenging things I ever have to experience in my life and it causes me so much stress and anxiety it's impossible to actually fully articulate why. Is this something that you can relate to?
Speaker 3:in a in a social aspect, yeah, so in a social situation. I kind of can't get past the going hi, I'm Caitlin, and yes, that's literally an introduction. But I think when you introduce yourself to someone, you've got to have a bit more than that and, like a lot of people want you to ask questions and I don't really know what questions to ask and I don't know what questions they're going to ask me, so I don't know what I'm going to have to answer and I think that that it brings a lot of like mystery into into the situation and and kind of the unknown and it makes it very, very stressful and overwhelming just from the simple senses of hi, I'm, I'm caitlin, if that makes sense yeah, and then my even worse it's when people ask you how are you?
Speaker 2:and you sort of it's like do you ever get this? Where you start thinking what? And he's trying to work this out. You're thinking what, what do they actually mean? Do they actually want me to to basically tell them everything that's going on in my life right now, um and so. So if I've had a cold recently, I'm going to talk to them in detail about how that cold has actually affected me, or do I just very politely say, oh, I'm fine, thanks, and and not they're not knowing what you're actually supposed to do in a situation when somebody asks you how you are because you'll never really know whether you're supposed to be answer that question sort of like authentically, or it's just some sort of like strange sort of like act of communication that you're not quite entirely sure what the purpose of it is yeah, I definitely get that.
Speaker 3:So when somebody says like, oh, how are you, it's like well, do you actually want to know the answer or do you just want the neurotypical of answer, oh, I'm fine, thanks, how are you? Which is, or or just, I'm fine, thanks. I kind of usually tend to forget the how are you part, but it's like a, like a rehearsed script of I definitely did this throughout my life and I still do it now of of like you almost imagine it like a literal script in your head, like one of those TV ones, and it's like hi, I'm Caitlin. And then this person says hi, I'm you know whoever. And then they go how are you? And I'm fine, thanks, how are you?
Speaker 2:and it is very rare and then just like this really sort of like weird silence, you know like how they exaggerate things on, in particular comedy sketches like where everything goes silent. You can hear the wind sort of like rustling and like tumbleweed starts like bounding everywhere, because you just think, and now, what, what, what's next? And particularly if people start looking at you and as if, okay, now it's your turn to sort of like carry on this conversation somehow other and what comes after that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think, if that the idea of an introduction is also, um, like an opening for a conversation that you've not really prepared for, and, especially in social situations, having to have so many of those over and over again, when they're the same conversation that you've already had and people are asking lots of different questions, it's it becomes very overwhelming how do you find in comparison, actually sort of conversations with other autistic people?
Speaker 2:I know we're quite interested to know whether this is also your experience. But what I have noticed since so now I spend more time with other autistic people in conversations is the dynamic of introductions is inherently different. So no autistic person I know ever if they know that I'm autistic, that's important to establish would ever come up to me and start saying Hi, how are you, what do you do? Usually very quickly they'll get onto the subject of what they're interested in. That seems to be my experience anyway is how autistic people tend to tend to communicate with, have conversations with, other people that are autistic, people that are very, very focused on their special interests, the things that they're interested in, because that's how we connect we, like you know we by talking about the things that we're really interested in and we're passionate about.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think we did that today. Actually, I think we, oh, did we? Yeah, I think we just sat down and kind of got straight into it and we didn't really go. We didn't do any of the neurotypical small talk of oh how are you? I'm like, oh, it's cold outside today.
Speaker 2:You know, I'm really sorry, I didn't ask you how you were.
Speaker 3:By the way, that's okay.
Speaker 2:I really don't mind sorry and also interrupted you as well well, that's fine, I think that's.
Speaker 3:Uh, interruptions are a hard one, um, to like inserting yourself in social situations and you kind of have to interrupt the conversation Sometimes and you don't really know where the Some people seem to just know where the sweet spot is, where to say something or where to insert themselves, whereas I always find that I'm stood on the sidelines a bit like should it be here, maybe it's the next one, or or or or the next one. You know, I never really seem to kind of merge myself into that situation quite that well, because you have to interrupt. And then other times I find that I interrupt really kind of almost what someone would consider rudely is I just, I just put in and I don't think about it because I'm so excited, because I've got all this information and I think it's really relevant, and I'm like no, now, I need, I need to say this right now. I need to say it's absolutely right now, or I'm never going to say it at all, but I need to.
Speaker 2:I don't know whether that's reassuring to hear or not but, um, um, so you haven't, like me, then, have managed to sort of like work out any sort of like useful strategies in how to actually have conversations with non-autistic people, have you found it?
Speaker 2:One of the things I found really quite useful actually was in terms of the.
Speaker 2:The interruption thing was was when we sort of like moved very briefly the entire world, moved very briefly into online conversations, particularly platforms like Zoom and Teams, where you had this wonderful ability to like literally have a digital hand so that if you really wanted to speak or say something or contribute to the conversation, you could literally put your hand up, and that all of a sudden sort of like became transformative in some way, in that you weren't, I'm guessing, similar to experiences I've had where you've been involved in conversations, particularly conversations where there's two or three people talking and you really want to be present on part that conversation, but you just don't know how to join in, and that digital hand has been really, really, really useful and I'd quite like to have, like, a physical hand now, um, a sort of uh, you know a paper hand or one of those you know is it is it gladiators or something on the new tv shows that's just restarted, where people have sort of like giant rubber hands you could just walk around with and just put that up.
Speaker 2:Maybe that wouldn't be so great, though in hindsight That'd be quite distracting.
Speaker 3:It would be quite funny, I think, if people started walking around with big foam hands. But no, I definitely get that and I actually I think I actually do find myself now sometimes actually raising my hand when I want to say something, and I do get funny looks, but I don't want to interrupt that conversation that that person is having. But then I also have something I want to say and I feel like I've compromised with myself and I've actually started putting my hand up and I think people definitely give me funny looks when I do it. But I'm like no, I want to say something, but I know I don't know when to interrupt, so I'm gonna have to put my hand up and wait you know it reminds me I was at a.
Speaker 2:I was at an autism conference last year. They did something really quite quite I. I found this personally quite useful and I feel like this is like a strategy that I'd like to see become quite more widespread. So, as all the conference delegates, they got like an information pack including, you know, the schedule for the day, all the different talks, what was happening, and they'd also organized a quiet room for autistic people to sit in with a video sort of like you know relay, what was actually happening in the main room. So if you wanted to be somewhere more quiet that wasn't so over stimulating in terms of environment, you could sit there.
Speaker 2:But I suppose my problem with that would be that the people who really need to have their voices heard are having to sort of like literally go to a room separate from the main room and therefore it's less likely that their voices would be heard, if that makes sense. But but one thing they did do that was the thought was really really good is in the information pack they had a series of um fold out lanyards. So instead of just having a lanyard that had your name on there, you could have a lanyard, and there's four different options which was um. One which was basically bright red that basically had a hand gesture, so like literally, um, basically please leave me alone. But it didn't say it's as it basically just like. It's like I, I need to be sort of like left to myself, sort of thing. So if you didn't want to communicate with anybody, that's like a really clear sign that you weren't. You were for people to sort of like not invade your space.
Speaker 2:There was like a, a neutral one, which was like a number one which was just like I'm neutral. A green one which was like I'm happy to talk, but perhaps for me the most useful and interesting one was the blue one that said help me to join, in, which I thought, wow, this is incredible. So I don't have to explain to people here why I'm failing to sort of like join in the conversation. I've got this thing that I'm wearing that basically makes them aware that they need to sort of like, really sort of like, be aware of my difficulties and try and sort of like include me in the conversation, and I thought this is such a brilliant idea. I thought this is something that could be really, really sort of like rolled out and become widespread. But I mean, is that something do you think you could relate to?
Speaker 3:Definitely. I think if I was at that conference I definitely would have picked the blue because, especially in social situations, I do need that little bit of extra help to be included because I think I struggle. I do need that little bit of extra help to to be included because I think I I struggle, I do um to insert myself in those situations because I think, ultimately, I've always felt like I don't belong in those situations why is that?
Speaker 3:I think it's because I've always felt different. I've always, I've always been kind of had that feeling of feeling different. I've never really felt like I fit in anywhere until I got diagnosed. When I was younger I would practice and practice at home, so that I could go to school and practice High School Musical, you know, like practice well. Well, high school musical was big when I was younger, so I would watch the films religiously, I'd watch them over and over and over, I'd rehearse it almost, and then I could go to school and I could talk about it with with, you know, with my friends. And then, you know, in some way I did fit in, but I had to work that much harder than everyone else for who it seemed to come naturally and I've just always had that feeling of me in a bubble and I have my own little protective bubble around me and all the other people, and the more I try to reach towards them, it's like it pushes me further away. I've never, I've always felt like that.
Speaker 2:And that's pretty much how you felt your entire life.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And was it. Is it easier now that?
Speaker 3:you have an understanding of why through having a diagnosis. Yeah, I think when I got the diagnosis, it clicked like everything seemed to fall into place, like, oh, that makes sense, it made sense.
Speaker 2:And it still takes a lot of work for me to be able to feel like include including social situations, um, but it made sense, which is one step forward and you mentioned high school musical, which I think um was a bit after my time, just just a little bit after my time, but even I appreciate just how much of a phenomenon that was at the time. Um, now, did you consciously choose High School Musical because you were genuinely interested in it as a child or was it because you realised that the other children were interested in it and this is a way to be able to connect with them, as having a sort of like a tool, if you sort of like a tool, if you like some, a way that you could actually begin conversations with them or be involved in conversations?
Speaker 3:thinking back, I definitely convinced myself at the time that I did actually like high school musical. Um, and actually what I was really interested in when I was young was William Shakespeare, which not a lot of like eight-year-olds are interested in William Shakespeare to the extent that I was um, which was probably the big flag. That was like screaming autism at me, but everyone really did miss that. Um, yeah, I look thinking back. No, I probably wasn't that interested in high school musical. It definitely was just a tool to socialise.
Speaker 2:Wow, Shakespeare. So what in particular about Shakespeare?
Speaker 3:I think? I mean, I've always had a liking for dramatic arts, but I do think it comes hand in hand with being autistic. Is that I have always pretended, I've always acted, I've always been playing a person, a neurotypical person. I think Shakespeare for me you could kind of get lost in that. The fantasy world like Midsummer Night's Dream was all is one of my favourite ones, actually, and there's so much you know. It has that element of fantasy, of make-believe, and you can kind of be whoever you want. Um, I just think shakespeare's a fantastic play, like playwright as well. Um, I love all these plays. I've read them all, um, and I feel myself going on a william shakespeare tangent, so I might have to stop myself. No, no, no. I think the the.
Speaker 2:The point of the diverse hub is that we embrace autistic conversations and I think I, I, equally somebody who's I um, there was a fantastic. Well, it wasn't fantastic, it was a. I remember a long, long, long, long time ago, there was a TV show in which they were actually trying to identify the greatest Briton that ever lived, and they invited lots of celebrities to sort of like champion the cause of a particular person in British history as being worthy of being considered to be the greatest Briton. And, to cut a long story short, the overall winner of this competition was not William Shakespeare. It should have been William Shakespeare, without any doubt whatsoever, because, frankly, who else could it possibly be other than Shakespeare? Because nobody has had such a global impact on the world as Shakespeare has and has basically, if like, literally, if you like crystallized the essence of everything that's great about Britain and you know, and also not great, as in an incredibly expansive body of work. But no, the actual winner was was Winston Churchill, which was highly predictable, and I thought, as an autistic person, they've got that wrong, they've really got that wrong.
Speaker 2:But I think, for me, what I get from Shakespeare I think drew me to Shakespeare, particularly in my teenage years was, I realized that this is somebody who really understood the world around them. They really understood the world as it is now, but they also really understood the past and how the past isn't very much different from the present and, and fundamentally, they understood people. They understand what motivated people, what, what, what, what basically propelled people to act in certain ways. And I I think I learned more about how people act and behave from Shakespeare than perhaps any other person certainly friends and family In much the same way that you've been describing.
Speaker 2:Actually, it's really quite difficult as an autistic person to understand other people really, really because we we don't understand other people by. We're kind of disadvantaged in the way that there are lots of ways of communication, but we tend to sort of like only have one way of communicating, which is basically by, as we are right now, talking to each, each other, but also through written texts. Many other things, such as like body language, particularly for me. You may feel differently, but that's just something I'm not even aware of. I don't even know that it's happening. I'm not aware of the many ways that people are trying to communicate with me other than by just simply speaking, but Shakespeare explains that in a way that I actually understand.
Speaker 3:Shakespeare has these fun and fantastical and dark and gritty kind of plays and they're all about human experience and and what people would do in those scenarios and, um, I think that's probably why I did like him so much growing up is because it kind of showed me the way forward in in life. You know, how do I get from from this point to the next point? Because I really don't know, because I feel so different from everything.
Speaker 2:So growing up, what was it like?
Speaker 3:Horrible that's the first thing that comes to mind is horrible. Growing up was really really hard is horrible. And growing up was really really hard and it's not horrible in a way that I can't talk about it because it is really relevant to you know who I am today and I, like I said, I always have felt different. I've always, I've always felt separate from, from my peers and I always struggled to see, you know, like how could I ever fit into this society? You know, I never really found my place.
Speaker 3:I had two very strong friends from primary school that followed me through to high school and I kind of clung to them because it was familiar, it was safe and I didn't really want to to branch out from that and and that's that's, you know, my whole remembering of of childhood is is these two people and that maybe I didn't really have that many interests with, but they were there and and it was comfortable and familiar and and I didn't really have that many interests with, but they were there and and it was comfortable and familiar and and I didn't really have to branch out from that, but I still had that feeling of being different from them even.
Speaker 3:You know, I very much had my own interests and, and would you know, very much happily play on my own than play with people. You know my mum has a story of of me like someone trying to another child, trying to play with me at like a doctor's office where they used to have all those wires and like things you can, and I was very happy playing by myself. And another kid comes along and tries to play with me and I actually did punch them. I actually physically punched them. I was probably about three at the time and I've always been very much like leave me to myself, I don't want anybody else to be involved, this is my thing, this is my childhood how that felt.
Speaker 2:And are you still in contact with many of your childhood friends? I'm in contact with many of your childhood friends. I'm in contact with one of them and how, how different, how different is that, that relationship being since, since you've had your diagnosis, do they you know somebody I could probably relate to in some respects is that, how difficult has it been to sort of get them to understand how different the way you see things and experience things do you feel like they, they, they can um, I guess we've never really talked about it.
Speaker 3:I mean, I was diagnosed just a few months before I left high school, so I was kind of still figuring it out myself before I could tell anyone else how it does affect me properly, because I guess I didn't really understand myself. And then I still talk to this friend now and then I still talk to this friend now, but it's very few and far between our conversations and there's never really been the time to say, oh, this is how it affects me or it's kind of. I guess when I do see that friend and I kind of hang out with them, I am masking, I'm still playing that pretend person.
Speaker 2:I don't know if you saw it, but it was actually shown again actually relatively recently. Chris Packham has done a series on on um on autism and particularly sort of like. I think he's worked with four, four different autistic people who really sort of like want people to actually understand what their lives are like, so basically to explain to their friends and family about their experiences and by actually creating individual films so each one of them creates a film that is then shown to their family to try and help them to understand a little bit better about how different their lives are and how different they see and experience the world is. So is there any? If you, if you could do something like that yourself, what would you like people to know?
Speaker 2:sorry, that's a big question to ask a big question, um I mean, is there anything in particular that you think that people I suppose to make this a little bit easier is there anything that you particularly find in whether whether that's with your friends, with family, with colleagues, with, with basically pretty much everybody that you really wish people understood, that perhaps they don't?
Speaker 3:I think, perhaps, that sometimes I can't tell when, when time's up on something. So I I do mask a lot, which is obviously a term that is used for like females and autism, and how they fly under the radar of diagnosis by masking, by pretending to be that someone else is, that I don't know when to stop sometimes and it tires me out, and that I need, I do have telltale signs that my mum knows, but I guess I don't tell everybody about that because I don't tell everyone that I'm autistic has there ever been a time in your life when you actually felt relaxed enough to actually not mask in front of people?
Speaker 3:no, I don't think I have.
Speaker 2:I mean are you masking? Now, I'm masking because I actually wouldn't know, because one of the strange things about being autistic is that, even though we're experts at masking ourselves I don't think this is my own personal experience here I don't think that I can tell if somebody's masking. Do you feel that you can?
Speaker 3:can tell if somebody's masking? Do you, do you feel that you can? I think I can because I, I've done it and I for so long is that I can tell when someone may be masking? Um, and I think I, I subconscious, I think I just do it out of habit. It's like a like a survival instinct, because that's what I did as a child is that I survived, I got through it, and so I think I do it every day now as as um to survive still but and there's no point where you feel comfortable enough to not do that- I think probably when I'm at home and it's just like me and my mum and the dog, then I think when I'm around this sounds very strange, but when I'm around my dog, like I can be like completely myself.
Speaker 3:I love my dog so much.
Speaker 2:Because animals are a lot more forgiving than than than other humans are. They don't have the same expectations of us, do they?
Speaker 3:yeah, I definitely. Yeah, I am. I think that's, um, something that I've always felt, but then was very, very reinforced when I am, when I was diagnosed and I am very naively kind of told everyone and I didn't get a very good reaction from that and I think that kind of reinforced when I was diagnosed that I still need to do this, just because I know and it makes sense, it's still not safe.
Speaker 2:This is, in many respects, an impossible question to ask, but I kind of have to ask it anyway. Why do you think people reacted the way they did when you told them that you were autistic?
Speaker 3:Because they don't understand. I think a lot of people see autism as something bad and something that needs to be fixed or cured, or that you know I'm not, um, I'm not a capable person, or that I'm, you know I'm, I'm exactly what you know. The past media has kind of portrayed autism to be I'm, you know, as they do portray, and it is a very horrible way to portray autism because it's nothing like it, like it, it can be. Um is is less than a person. Is that that I am? You know, like the puzzle piece kind of um symbol that is used is like there's a piece missing, but there's not like I am. I was the person that they knew before and I and I'm still the same person. Nothing's changed, it's just got a name. But they don't understand that. They kind of think I've been hiding and lying something from them, something like evil, but I'm not did you say evil?
Speaker 3:yeah.
Speaker 2:That's a very strong word.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because that is what I was called, even when I was 16 years old and there's other 16-year-olds, they came out with all sorts of names. I was called primitive troglodytic evil. I was told oh, you can't be because you're not this, this and this, and I know you're using it all as an excuse to get away with things and I'm like what am I trying to get away with? Being a person? I'm not not really sure what your point is.
Speaker 2:I mean, do you think this is where a lot of autistic people? Um, because there's there's a really sort of like unhappy correlation between um, autistic, autistic autism and depression there's. You are several orders of magnitude more likely to experience depression if you are an autistic person than if you're not. And I feel you only have your own experience to go by as a reference. But from my own experience, I think this is because partly what you're saying is people's understandings of what autism is and what autistic people are like is based on basically well, lies, effectively totally lies, total, misrepresented truths, but lies nonetheless, and and it's where people get these ideas from.
Speaker 2:I think is interesting, but almost in a way I suppose that's sort of like excusing to an extent why people have these sort of like intense negative reactions towards us. And it seems really odd that somebody I've saying this to me relatively recently is that, um, if as an autistic person you spend your life trying to be a non-autistic person, you are only ever going to succeed in in being a. You know, at the best you can hope to be is a really bad, normal person, whereas really you should be trying to be a really good autistic person. But I don't feel, I think as much as I love that idea and I would much rather be a brilliant, autistic person and a mediocre, normal person, for so many reasons of that don't, shouldn't and never, should, never need to be explained. I don't think the world is there yet to be to, to, to um, enable us to do that no, I, I agree.
Speaker 3:I think that there's so much still that isn't known and that, as much as you can kind of give your own experience, it's just your experience. It's not everybody else's as well, but also people aren't. If it, I think that people who have a loved one or who are autistic or know someone who's autistic, they they're more willing to listen than than the general kind of public, because you know it's not relevant to them, it means nothing to them. How is it going to affect them in their daily lives? And I think that's a big thing of of why people engage with things um, because they don't, it doesn't. How is it going to affect them? In a way, and that's a really sad fact is that people aren't interested unless it benefits them I'm struggling to process that in a way, because I think we don't think like that, do we?
Speaker 3:no, I definitely don't. I love all knowledge and any knowledge. I'm like, if it's knowledge, even I don't if it's like the most randomest thing. I'm like I'm going to exalt that because I just love information and you know, I'm happy to learn about whatever, whenever you know, whereas some people only want to learn about something if it benefits them, and that's.
Speaker 2:It's a really wild concept to me, but it's something I learned very quickly so, but I've people don't who aren't autistic probably don't realize is that the special interest, autism special interests are the thing that are the most important thing in, certainly, my life as an autistic person, and I've yet to meet another autistic person who doesn't also feel that they're the most important thing in their lives. That for me it's the thing that sort of like gives me value, meaning, excites me. You know, find joy, everything in special interests. Um, is that true for you?
Speaker 3:yeah, I definitely am happiest, like it's definitely, like it's almost like I can have a really, really horrible day and then I come home and I can. I mean, one of my special interests is crochet. I can come home and crochet, can I mean, one of my special interests is crochet. I can come home and crochet and everything's almost right in the world like nothing matters, because I'm in this bubble with my special interests and I'm like a blanket.
Speaker 2:It's like a nice, warm blanket so, on the subject of special interests, I didn't, obviously, because we didn't do the thing that we're supposed to do at the beginning of this podcast, where we introduced each other and told our listeners who we are and what we do. Um, I completely forgot to say that you are a paramedic science student. Yes, I am. Now, I'm not going to ask you about paramedic science, but what I am going to ask is what drew you to paramedic science as a special interest?
Speaker 3:I've always grown up, my whole family around me have been in health care or emergency services, and so it's it's kind of been almost second nature to me. Um is to help people, um, I can't, I it's. People say that, oh, what drew like as if it was like a specific thing, but I feel like it's always been there, it's always been a natural instinct is to help, is to this. You know, this thing needs fixing and I can try and kind of find the problem and help provide a solution. Which almost makes me sound like a computer now that I say it like that, which is a very, very common way that neurotypicals talk about autistic people as if they are akin to robots or computers. Um, when I say that out loud, um, I just that was a very strange comparison that came into my head just not really most.
Speaker 3:Most computers and robots are created by autistic people yeah, so maybe is an innately autistic thing to do is to be a, you know, someone who helps. I mean by creating computers and and technology. We have helped. Um, so is this just my autism presenting itself as as my way of being helpful?
Speaker 2:I should quantify what I just said there by saying that most, most robots and computers are created by autistic people. Um, that's just a personal opinion, but one based very, very much on what I know is the experience of autism and how I know how it presents itself pretty much in within the world, because we talked earlier, didn't we, about how so much of what we experience in life would possibly not exist if autistic people did not exist, such as nearly all of the technology that we use. Um, so how are you finding your experience of studying paramedic science?
Speaker 3:I love it. It is definitely the right thing for me and, like there's no doubt in my mind that this is you, you know, this is this. I want to be a paramedic. I love the course that I'm doing and I love being a student paramedic. I think that the way paramedic science kind of approaches a patient, you know even from the minute you walk into the house you've kind of got this script already given to you that you're taught about. That's kind of drilled into you. You say hi, my name's Caitlin, I'm a student paramedic. How can I help today? And then the person will say there, oh, I have this say if it's chest pain.
Speaker 3:And then you have an, an algorithm to follow. You've got something like a mnemonic and it tells you what question to ask and when and what comes next. And then, once you've asked all those questions based on what they've given, you then know I have to give this medication or I have to go here because they've said this. And it's very, almost system-based and I think that is very, very nice for my artistic mind is that I, I have that.
Speaker 3:You know, it's not just you, you, you go. It's not like a social situation you go in and you have a conversation, it kind of go any one way is that you go in, they tell you and you know you have all the information you had and you know that you can have that solution. I mean, there are times where you might not, and I think that's um, you know where you, you learn to kind of create your own um algorithms, which is something that you know. The degree is for um, but I I do love it because I do think it is very autistic coded that's a perfectly brilliant way of looking at it.
Speaker 2:Um, just to change the subject ever so slightly, because I feel like we should have talked about this earlier and I don't want us to not talk about it because we talked about this earlier. You see, everybody who's listened to this is actually hearing half the conversation, because we had a brilliant conversation before we even got here. So we must remember to try and include some of that conversation here now. Um, we were talking, I think, a bit about how autism presents itself differently between men and women, but, I think, more importantly, why there's still this, uh, ongoing lingering assumption that, um, boys are much more likely to be autistic than girls, and and why, why it is perhaps that so many female autistics don't get diagnosed until relatively late in life, if at all, because I think that the statistics are quite interesting on this.
Speaker 2:Back in 1981, the ratio of male to female autistics was I think it was. I've forgotten now what did I say? It was 16 to 1. Don't quote me on that, please quote me on that. It needs to be right. But now it's more like 3 to 1, which is an astonishing sort of like difference over a 40 year period, and it's reasonable to suggest that there's probably no difference whatsoever, that you are just as likely to be autistic if you are female as if you are male. But what has been your experience? Why do you think that it's so's so difficult for for women and girls to be diagnosed, or is it?
Speaker 3:I think, um, women have definitely flown under the radar because, I mean, it was only boys that could be autistic and they were only interested in trains and computers and and they didn't really talk and they kind of did very much in public hit their heads or, you know, that was what was portrayed to everyone, you know, and that was what autism was seen as, and how could it be any different? But it was very different. I think many, for years and years, women have flown under the radar because of our you, you know the kind of developed ability to mask, to kind of hide in plain sight, um, like camouflaging. There's a lot of research out there. I remember reading when I, when I first got diagnosed that this is what I've done, this is, I've hidden myself in plain sight, you know, going home and watching all the high school musicals or or listening to all the one direction songs or watching all those youtube videos I was never really interested in, but all my friends like Zoella. So I must, you know, I must like Zoella, but I really couldn't care less.
Speaker 3:Um, you know, I I trained myself in a way to be a girl in society and I think that comes very much from. I mean that's how women were always trained. I mean you'd go to, like my grandma would tell me she would go to school and they would teach her to knit and to cook, not to like do real practical things. You know the same as what the men would learn. And I think that's where we kind of like do real practical things, you know the same as what the men would learn. And I think that's where we kind of like missed.
Speaker 3:It is because women have always been treated so differently from men. You know we were always kind of hidden away. You know in the house, cooking, cleaning. You know we were never out there in the work in the wider world until the war and then everything kind of propelled itself forward and women started becoming more involved in in work and out in society. You know, I mean, even back in, when you see, like tv shows or media or you read about in like the 20s, the women were the hosts they had to put on this big show, they were performing. So it's easy to hide. When you're performing.
Speaker 2:You know you're not playing yourself, you're playing someone else, you're playing this host, you're playing this performer did you ever feel, growing up that, um, you sort of loosely, sort of like um identified this in a way with what you just said, that that we have. We live in a society where we have very sort of like gendered roles. Basically. We, we basically assign sort of like certain characteristics to people based on what gender they are, and for an autistic person, this is is really really difficult and challenging, because that's like a kind of a social sort of like conversation that I feel like I wasn't part of.
Speaker 2:I didn't understand this at all, because they say, for instance, that children at around about three years old have a get, get a song, strong sense of gendered identities. They, they, they learn, for instance, that their mother is very different to their father, even though they're not able to articulate this or explain it, but they have a sense of it. Whereas I don't ever recall ever having that ever. I feel like it was something that had to, had to be explained to me and I sort of understand it, but I sort of don't understand it at the same time, because it's not, it's not something I feel consciously, if that makes sense.
Speaker 3:I guess I never really thought about it until I was diagnosed. I kind of I guess so much of my childhood was just surviving. I just did whatever my friends did, so whatever they learned. I was learning. You know, almost like a secret observer is that is that I just followed them because that was the way I could survive. And then at home, I mean, I never had a father figure, I never had, it was just me and my mum, and then my grandma, my granddad had Alzheimer's, so that was very much. You know, he wasn't himself. He died when I was young as well. So, um, you know, it was very much. I only saw women.
Speaker 2:I only I only had the concept of what they are, and that's probably what I should be but did you have a concept of them as women or did you have a concept of yourself and being able to identify as woman and therefore imagining that they were essentially the way they understood and experienced the world was essentially no different to the way that you would experience and understood the world?
Speaker 3:I don't think I really ever had a concept of myself until I understood that I was autistic and that's you know. I feel like I picked parts of other people that I probably thought worked really well in life and I try to become that. I don't think I ever actually truly had a concept of myself until I I got diagnosed, which is quite sad, I think.
Speaker 2:I think that's quite normal yeah to be honest, I think that the day you get your diagnosis, I think nothing illustrates for me plenty of things. Actually illustrate for me how differently autistic people see the world, um world to non-autistic people. But if there's one thing more than any, it's our reaction to getting an autism diagnosis. Now, when I first said that and I was very guarded about this there were very, very few people. I told that I was going to go for an autism diagnosis and the overwhelming reaction was why do you want to do that? And when I questioned why are you saying that? Because autism is basically well, they didn't say it's a terrible thing, but they meant it's a terrible thing in a very polite way of saying to your friend this is a terrible thing. Why a very polite way of saying to your friend this is a terrible thing? Why would you want to be identified this way?
Speaker 2:And I feel and this is something I've noticed as well, because I get asked a lot by parents now who have children who they suspect might be autistic, and they're really, really worried about their child being autistic, because they imagined that they were automatically going to have a much worse life than someone who isn't autistic.
Speaker 2:So I think, as you said earlier, the general assumption is that autism is bad and it's something that needs to be cured. So why would you want to be something that is bad and needs to be cured? And yet every single person I know who's received an autism diagnosis has said it was the happiest day of their lives. They actually celebrated it. It was just like and and it's like a new birthday for them. It's like there's there's your actual birthday, the day you were actually born on, and then there's like your autism birthday, which is the day in which you received your diagnosis and the world completely transformed and you suddenly began to sort of like make sense of everything that happened to you, but also have a much better understanding of what the future might look like.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I definitely for myself. I see that everything before that day that I got that diagnosis was Caitlin, you know that performer of who I thought I should be, and then from the day I got diagnosed it's almost like a rebirth, I guess is I consider myself actually being myself from that day, like the new birthday? Um, I could. I definitely understand that, um, because you know, that's when I actually everything started to make sense and that's when I understood and I and I kind of realized why I am the way that I am and there's nothing wrong with the way that I am and that I don't need to try and and fit in in and learn all these things and I can fully embrace my special interests, you know, and I can not have to look people in the eye and I can not have to go and sit in the busy dinner hall and I can not have to do the things that make it harder for me to be a person that make it harder for me to be a person.
Speaker 2:For me, it was basically understanding that there was no longer any need to be conflicted by wanting to sort of like be alone and spend long periods of time alone, and learning to be okay with that and to understand that that was perfectly normal for me and not fear, as I did for many, many, many years, that there's something fundamentally wrong with wanting to be alone and to not spend time with your friends and not wanting to go out and socialise all the time, because I feel like I probably did a lot of, to the degree of my life, forcing myself to do things that I didn't want to do because I thought that's how you're supposed to be happy. I didn't understand myself enough to know that the things that really made me happy were okay, and you know it was okay for me to want to do the things that I, you know, wanted to do.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that's also what I mean. But in my own way, is that I definitely felt the. I guess I never really felt the responsibility of having to always be around people, because I was always very happy just being on my own, just naturally, and I kind of never put myself out there unless it was a birthday party or things. But I think, I mean, I wasn't very invited to many things as I struggled to make friends as a child. I had maybe two or three friends overall throughout my whole childhood and, um, you know, I I never was invited or put in those social situations that often so for me I don't think I had the, um, the kind of relation realization that I could be on my own because I just did that anyway, because that was what I was used to, sounds very sad actually, doesn't it? But I was quite happy, no, I mean.
Speaker 2:I was quite happy. This is. This is this is what I meant by the conflict, because you know, when you explain it to other people oh, I like to spend a lot of time on my own they immediately think are you depressed, are you really sad? I mean, lockdown was a great example for me. So I got to spend sometimes days, sometimes even weeks of not seeing another person or speaking to another person, and I remember people being very, very concerned about my welfare and well-being, saying it's not healthy to spend so much time on your own, and I had to say, no, it's brilliant, I'm loving absolutely every second of it. But no, it's brilliant, I'm loving absolutely every second of it. Literally, I've got like literally four times as much time to do my special interests as I've ever had in my entire life. I don't ever want this to end.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I definitely. I think for me lockdown was a very welcome kind of break. Not obviously it sounds horrible saying that, obviously because of everything that went on with covid. That break from society, that kind of it was just me. I mean, my mum was still working, so at home it was still. It was just me and my dog and I would go out with my dog and take him for walks and then I'd come home and I'd do my special interests, I'd I'd do what I could do and I didn't have anything else to interfere with it and I could plan my day exactly how I wanted it and exactly how I liked it, without having to think about anybody else and incorporate how they might feel or what they might think or kind of compromise on something that might make me feel uncomfortable or have to go to Because I was in college at the time.
Speaker 3:You know I hate a classroom environment. I really can't. I think that's why paramedic science is also so good. It's because you're not always in the classroom. So you know I didn't have to put myself in that horrible situation all day in a classroom with all those people. I could just do my college work and I did so well doing the college work at home than I did, compared to actually being in college. You know I was starting to get like my A's and A stars, whereas in college I was getting D's. Like actually sitting in college and doing the work because I struggled so much with that environment. I had my own happy, safe environment and I flourished. It was such a good. It was such a turnaround point for me in my life as well, because I had time to be myself and to not have to mask. It was really that reset that I needed to be able to continue forward.
Speaker 2:I think this is something that people don't properly understand actually is that if you say, for instance, as you have just done and I can very much relate to that experience that you hate classrooms, people don't understand that, they don't know what that means. They find it really, really impossible. Well, this is my experience at least, anyway to to understand what you mean by that. So what do you mean by that? Um?
Speaker 3:well, um, I mean to start off with, I think I am a very academic person, I love to learn, I love to read, love information, but I cannot stand being in a classroom. It's a very strange mix, a dichotomy almost. So when I sit in a classroom, I have to sit in the chair that might not be that comfortable.
Speaker 3:I have to sit next to someone who might smell very strongly of something that is definitely going to give me a headache, and they might try and talk to me as well, and whereas I'm there to learn, and they might be a very, very nice person, but they're talking to me, they're asking me questions. So I've also got to think about gosh, what am I going to answer to this question? And I've also got to absorb all this information. That is very important, but I'm going to have to do it in the teacher's way, because that is how they've presented it to me. They've presented it to me on this powerpoint and it's just word after word after word, line after line after line, and there's nothing kind of to break it up in the way that I need to learn.
Speaker 3:And then the lights are really really, really bright and one of them is flickering in the corner and it's really really really warm and I'm sweating and I can feel like my clothes getting a bit itchy on my back and I can feel my head hurts now as well, because the person smells really strange of something, and they're talking to me and I'm having to think of all these things and then everything just becomes this big jumble and then everything becomes tight and it becomes very much like you're in a very enclosed box and you can't do the thing that you need to do, which is to learn. I cannot absorb this information in the way that I need to absorb this information because I've got to try and survive in this environment that is not created for me to survive in. I think that sums up a classroom for me.
Speaker 2:I think that is a perfect description of what a classroom is like for nearly every autistic person certainly my experience as well and I just feel, since you've explained your experience and I was why, why is it that people find it so difficult to understand that?
Speaker 3:because that's not what they experience. And I think that a lot of people and I found this a lot is like well, I have that too, you know, and I'm not. This kind of thing is that people see their experience as everyone's experience rather than their own experience. And I think when you become, when you get your diagnosis and you become aware of oh wow, this is me you think very individually. You don't think as a whole. Is it because I feel this? This person's also going to feel this? It's because you don't? You just don't think that way. As an autistic person, I think, whereas everyone else does. It's a very they think because I feel this, this person's also going to feel this, but that's not necessarily true.
Speaker 2:Identity is really important to you, isn't it? Yeah, and would I be right in saying that you found your identity through your autism? Yeah, absolutely and, with that in mind, how do you feel about um the con, the con, the conversation that seems to be ever present at the moment, which is um identity first versus person first language, ie, are you an autistic person or person with autism?
Speaker 3:I am an autistic person and, um, I mean, we did discuss this beforehand, didn't we so we definitely do um, I am an autistic person because I am not a person without my autism. You know I cannot. If you take away my autism, I'm not me. I'm not the same person, and that to me is fundamentally important is that I am autistic. If I was not autistic, I would not be me. I would be someone else.
Speaker 2:And presumably you wouldn't see the world the same way. You wouldn't see the world the same way, you wouldn't understand the world the same way, you wouldn't have the same passions, you wouldn't have the same interests, you wouldn't have the same strengths no, I wouldn't be.
Speaker 3:I mean, I like to think that I am. I am good at what I do. You know, on my, on my course, I am. You know, I enjoy it and I think I do very well and and I I've got good feedback and I get on well with my mentor on on placement, and you know, I feel that I am, I'm good at it and I don't think that I would be as good as that without being autistic. And I don't feel like I would be. As you, you know, I don't think I would love animals as much as if I wasn't autistic. There's so many things about myself that I wouldn't be good at if I wasn't autistic. You know, I don't, I just think I can't even imagine it Like I think about that, what would I be like if I wasn't autistic? And no words come to mind because I just can't imagine it.
Speaker 2:Would it be terrible to not be autistic?
Speaker 3:I'd hate it, I really really would. It just would not be the same, because for all the times that I might, you know, struggle it's nothing compared to how much I enjoy myself. You know, struggle it's nothing compared to how, how much I enjoy myself. You know I've and that's something that's very hard to learn a lot of people don't like themselves, but I do like myself, you know, I do think that I am a good person and I do think that I I am. I enjoy my own company and I really would not enjoy my own company I think it'd be very, very dull if I was not autistic, because I think you know that autism. You know my mum says that I have a good, I have a good wit and I have a good humor and I don't think I would have that if I wasn't autistic, because I wouldn't see the world in the way it is and I wouldn't come out with some of the things that have come out in the past that have probably been very inappropriate at the time but other people have found hilarious.
Speaker 2:So you know and that's important, isn't it? Because I feel that a lot of the conversation about autism is is is focused around what autistic people can't do, um, rather than what we actually can do, and perhaps way too much focus is on trying to find ways of um dealing with the, the supposed sort of like problems and challenges that autism presents, not just to individuals but to a society that has to sort of like literally um include autistic people, and nowhere near enough is actually sort of like, is a focus of attention is spent on the things that we're really good at, or the things that we could be really good at, if we actually only had an opportunity to do those things.
Speaker 3:Definitely, I think. When I was first diagnosed, my mum was amazing. She threw herself into everything autism. She learnt all about it, and maybe it is that she is autistic too, because we are very similar people, as much as I'd probably hate to admit that and she'd probably love to see me. So I'm going oh, I'm exactly like my mum. She is probably autistic too. That is the whole of the matter. But she delved herself into it all. She supported me. If I wanted to do it, she would find a way for me to do it, and I think that is so important in that when you're autistic, you are told a lot of times that you can't do this because you are not capable, or you can't do this because you're autistic.
Speaker 3:You know, and that's when people see you as incapable. There is a barrier in place and people don't adjust it so that you can also do it. You know, I think the best way I could probably think about that is a exam arrangements is like being able to you sit two people in a room and one of them's autistic and one of them's not. The the neurotypical is gonna excel and do really well in this exam hall doing this exam, but this exam is tailored for them, it's built for them. It's not built for the autistic person, so they're not going to do as well because of the environment they're in and the way the paper is layout, whereas if you were to give them a small room and perhaps you know, a computer or a scribe for them to do the exam on, they'll do just as well as as they, as they as the neurotypical person, because you've adjusted it.
Speaker 3:Whereas if you don't do that for people and you know you get that in school, but once you're out in the real world, you don't really get it. It it just all falls away. Um, if you don't have that support, then how can you? You know you're being kind of having that barrier in place. You, it's something else stopping you from being able to agree, like, achieve your greatest potential, whereas if you were just given that little bit of support without kind of thinking, well, why do you need that support? You shouldn't need that support and you know. I think that you can definitely if, if you give that support, you can definitely be whatever you wanted to be. You could do whatever you wanted to do because of that support and I don't see why that's a bad thing.
Speaker 2:I would say that's an inherently good thing and a mutually beneficial thing, because it's a personal tragedy for an autistic person when they're not able to be the best version of themselves, when all of their passion, all of their knowledge, all of their skills, all of their interests never find a home, never find an outlet, when all of their passion, all of their knowledge, all of their skills, all of their interests never find a home, never find an outlet.
Speaker 2:But it's also a tragedy for the world because it means that person never gets to shine, they never get the chance to prove what they can do, to play a really important role in helping to shape and form the world in a positive way.
Speaker 2:And I'm very conscious that we've been talking for a long time now and, uh, not that I want this conversation to end, but we always end this conversation, the conversations on the diverse hub, by asking, by asking our guests to think about how we can make the boat move faster. Now, obviously, that's a very neurotypical question, so let me try and unpack it in a in a more accessible, new, new, neurodivergent, friendly way. We you, we've both, but particularly you've talked, caitlin, about your experiences, your own personal experiences of growing up, but we've also talked a little bit about what the world is like for autistic people today Maybe not so much about what it was like beforehand, although we have touched on that, and this is an opportunity for us to think about the future, to think about what the future might be like for autistic people, how the future could be better and how it can be better. So do you have any thoughts?
Speaker 3:I think, obviously, things like this, like this podcast, giving a voice to lived experience, is helpful, because when I I was diagnosed, I never had anything to relate to. Um, I struggled to kind of find, find something to relate to, and I think that's very, very important and I think once you have something to relate to, you can, um, you know, you can kind of understand it yourself. You think, oh, I do that. That makes so much sense, you know, and and you kind of have that something to look to. And if that, like if that person is the same as me and they can do that, then I can do that too. Um, having that inspiration of someone who is the same as you doing the things that you want to do, and knowing that you can do that, can make the boat go faster. I think having that support to do what you want to do without any judgment is definitely the way forward, I think.
Speaker 2:This might be a difficult question to answer, but to finish on, is what do you think the world could look like if autistic people had more help and support? How could we play a bigger role, I think in terms of um, maybe helping to fix some of the problems that exist in the world? Whether that be um, if you think about the challenges that are happening around us in the world today, it seems as though that we're constantly sort of like approaching things from the same mindset all the time. So there's, instead of embracing different thoughts, different opinions, different ideas, and one of the criticisms well, it's not criticism exactly, but I mean one of the challenges that autistic people often face is that we do think differently, we do see things differently, we do experience things differently to people who don't have autism, and that is a barrier.
Speaker 2:It can be a barrier when it comes to getting a, getting a job.
Speaker 2:It can be a barrier when it comes to acting education that works for you in terms of helping you to sort of like thrive rather than, rather than continue to face challenges and barriers. But also in so many other aspects of life as well, our difference is a barrier, and yet when I look at the world today, I can't help but think that many of the problems that we face could well actually not could need people who think differently in order to be able to sort of like rise to and sort of like meet those challenges. And, for instance, we were talking very earlier actually about greta thunberg and about how amazing it is that, um, that she's been able to inspire a, you know, a mass sort of like global movement of um of environmental activism through through her own efforts and how she consistently sees autism as being as empowered her to do this, um. And I just wonder do you have any thoughts on how autistic minds or how autistic people can actually shape and change the world?
Speaker 3:I think when given the opportunity um can actually shape and change the world. I think when given the opportunity, having that other experience and kind of showing people that other experience is the way that autistic people can help. I mean, I think it's something that definitely in conversations I've had with with people in my life that by showing that new perspectives, I've gone. I've never really thought about it that way, um, and they've been like I never really thought to think about another perspective. I always just thought about my own um, whereas I do.
Speaker 3:I do feel like autistic people are always thinking from different perspectives in every situation. I think each day I have a new perspective on something almost um, and that I can I do think because of I mean maybe because of the way of I've experienced life is that I can think, well, this person is going to have a different experience, like perspective, from me. So I've got to think about that also. I think by showing that to other people is how autistic people can can change the world and how they have done in the past, and I think we get by continuing to educate on that and to show that is probably is probably how the world would be a better place is if we thought about other people just that little bit more.
Speaker 2:I can't possibly add any more to that. I think that's such a fantastic sentence on which to end this podcast and unless, of course and I should always that, as the as the guest asked this do you have any closing thoughts that you would like to add?
Speaker 3:I don't think it can get any any, any more than what I've already said, I think.
Speaker 2:I think that's how I want to end it, yeah so you're, you're happy with this opportunity to actually talk about your own experiences, and I'm sure everybody listening has also found this conversation as equally sort of like in falling and hopefully inspiring as well, or as inspiring as I have I've found it to be I hope so, I'd like to think so.
Speaker 3:I think that when I was diagnosed, I made a decision that, if I can, I, you know, especially being in the position that I'm in I think I am incredibly lucky with the support I've been given is that, if I can have that little bit of inspiration for perhaps someone that maybe has been diagnosed for a long time or has just been diagnosed and they don't really know who they are, if they can see that I'm where I am and I'm doing what my dream is and what I love, that they can too, and that there's nothing that should reasonably stop them if they have the right support, I think that would give me, you know, the greatest like joy is that if someone, if another autistic person could be, you know, live up to their full potential because of because of this is is probably making me very happy.
Speaker 2:What a wonderful, wonderful way to conclude this conversation. Thank you so much, Caitlin, for being my guest today.
Speaker 3:Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2:Okay, and thank you everyone for listening. Join us next time for another edition on the Diverse Hub. Thank you very much. Bye.