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'That's Me!' Project: Reverse Mentoring at the University of Wolverhampton

• Adam • Season 3 • Episode 2

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What if the traditional mentor-mentee roles were flipped on their heads? Join us as we explore theUniversity of Wolverhampton's 'That's Me!' reverse mentoring program, where global majority postgraduate researchers guide senior faculty members. With guests Professor Jenni Jones, Professor Tracy Devonport, and counselling doctoral student Dr Suha Ahmed, we uncover how this innovative initiative is fostering inclusivity and dismantling cultural barriers within academia. Suha shares her personal journey of using her own challenges to advocate for future students, revealing the transformative power of reverse mentoring in creating meaningful change.

Ever felt apprehensive about navigating power dynamics in professional settings? Our conversation dives into the heart of these dynamics within the reverse mentoring program, shedding light on the initial anxieties and eventual breakthroughs experienced by participants. We emphasise the significance of understanding cultural differences and the power of honest dialogue in breaking down barriers. This episode highlights how collaboration and candid exchanges not only empower postgraduate researchers but also cultivate inclusive research practices, enriching the academic environment for everyone involved.

As the University of Wolverhampton gears up for the third cohort of this groundbreaking program, we reflect on the importance of amplifying diverse voices and building confidence among participants. Through the lens of Black History Month, we discuss reclaiming narratives and ensuring that underrepresented stories are heard. This episode offers listeners a glimpse into a world where reverse mentoring not only enhances personal growth and storytelling abilities but also paves the way for broader cultural inclusivity and positive change within and beyond the university setting.

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Speaker 1:

We are recording this podcast at the home of Wolverhampton University's Multimedia Journalism degree in the Alan Turing building on City Campus. The radio studio we are sitting in is kitted out to the same standards as places like BBC Radio 4 and 5 Live. It was installed alongside two studios as part of the new Wolverhampton Screen School. If you want to pop in for a guided tour to discuss booking the studios or to chat about the journalism undergraduate podcast all about the that's Me reverse mentoring programme the Diverse podcast all about the that's Me reverse mentoring program.

Speaker 2:

Unfortunately, I couldn't be there in the studio for the recording due to some travel hiccups, but I'm really excited to introduce you to the brilliant conversation that took place between my colleagues. For those new to the concept, reverse mentoring flips traditional mentoring on its head. It's where those from who might be seen as junior or newer to the organization share their experiences and insights with senior staff. This approach is a powerful way to challenge assumptions, build mutual understanding and create more inclusive environments. You're going to hear from colleagues involved with the that's Me project, an OFS funded cross-institution initiative that focuses on eliminating barriers for global majority postgraduate researchers or PGRs. As part of this project, the reverse mentoring program pairs global majority PGRs with academic staff here at the university, giving them a platform to bring fresh perspectives and contribute to lasting change. I can say from personal experience this type of mentoring is transformative. My own mentor continues to be amazing long after our official mentoring ended, and I'm sure you'll hear similar reflections in today's discussion. So, without further delay, let's dive into their insightful conversation. Enjoy.

Speaker 3:

Okay, my name is Jenny Jones. I work in the Faculty of Arts, Business and Social Sciences. I'm an Associate Professor.

Speaker 4:

I'm Tracy Devonport. I'm a Professor of Applied Sport and exercise science and I work in the school of psychology hi, I'm Suha and I'm a counselling psychologist and co-creator of that reverse mentoring training okay great.

Speaker 3:

Well, we thought we'd tell you a little bit about the that's me mentoring program and share some learning that we think is coming through as well as our own learning. So let me just kick off by telling you a little bit about it. We're just about to start our third cohort. It's a programme where we encourage our postgraduate researchers so our PhD, our professional doctorate researchers to be reverse mentors, working with our senior leaders in all things research as the mentees, so the students kind of take control. The students lead the students in the driving seat, sharing things around their barriers, their challenges that they faced or are still facing as postgraduate researchers, in the hope that our mentees or our senior leaders can help remove some of those barriers and make things a little bit easier for for their journey but also those that are coming through uh behind them.

Speaker 3:

So so far we've got 17 mentoring pairs, um all together across two cohorts. Um, and we've been. We had some training and some briefing sessions with uh, both the reverse mentors and the mentees, and we catch up with them Suha and I catch up with them, with Deborah Curitan as well, who's part of the team to ask them how it's going, what they're learning, etc. So I'm going to pass over to Suha to tell us a little bit about her involvement and what she's learning.

Speaker 5:

So the reason that I signed up to be part of this project is because Tracy Professor Tracy used to be my supervisor she has asked me and I was very excited because, as much as I learned a lot through my journey of studying here on the counselling doctorate, I also faced quite a bit of challenging situations, such as, for instance, in terms of writing in English and not having as much support, as well as perhaps sometimes during our skill sessions, assumptions were made based on being from a different culture. So the reason why I signed up and wanted to be part of this project is because I wanted to voice these challenges with the hope that changes can be made for the upcoming students or doctor trainees, and so that's perhaps my reason.

Speaker 3:

Thanks, Suha. What about your kind of learning? What have you got from it? And over time? I?

Speaker 5:

think one of the things I remember during our first meeting, what was very interesting, is the excitement from those that signed up to be a mentor. That was quite nice to see. I think what I learned from it is that what I was feeling was I was, I didn't feel alone because I, as they were talking about their experiences, I think one thing that came up for me was having to perhaps the challenge with having to perhaps guide or lead work with someone who's senior to you and taking the role of leading them rather than being led. I think that was for me. I thought that's a struggle that I perhaps experienced, but I think that was quite obvious in our first meeting with the mentors. What have I learned from it? I think quite a lot in terms of, as I said, the difficulties, but we have people from different cultures and backgrounds and it feels like, although we're from different cultures, but the challenges that we experience is quite similar, and I think, as I said, one of the challenges is that it was huge and played a big part in terms of pressure. For me was having to perform in the same way that someone who speaks the English language and, for example, it took me about maybe three, three, four times more, uh, whether it's writing, whether it's reading, compared to someone perhaps whose first language is is english. I think that's that's one of the struggles that I noticed.

Speaker 5:

But also speaking up, sometimes it can be quite difficult, and that's not because the lecturers are not approachable, it's just because of our own beliefs and values and in terms of our difficulties with, as I said, speaking to someone who is more senior, and I remember I shared this with Tracy a lot. I remember when they signed or they linked me to Professor Tracy as my supervisor, professor Tracy as my supervisor it was very hard because I thought, you know, speaking to someone who is a doctor is already something that's not done in my culture. But having a professor, a professor, which added more pressure because I thought they are senior, they have a lot of knowledge, what am I going to bring to the table if they already know everything? And so a lot of anxiety.

Speaker 5:

But I think what I learned from it also my biases and how, for example, my culture and my beliefs and values, how sometimes thinking from that perspective can create a lot of anxiety. So I'm so lucky. I had a fabulous journey in terms, in terms of my thesis. I had a lot of support and I learned a lot from Tracy, so I'm really thankful that it was proven to be different, uh, positively different, so yeah, brilliant, thank you.

Speaker 3:

How about you, tracy? Because you're leading the project, aren't you? Do you want to tell us a little bit about that and about your learning?

Speaker 4:

yeah. So, um, I was asked if I could uh support the that's me program and you've got all these different work packages and I was immediately drawn to what's known as work package five, the reverse mentor program. And I was drawn to that because I've I've been back in the early 2000s. I set up mentor programs with national governing bodies in sport, and so I knew the value on a personal level mentoring has for people in terms of their own professional development and developing confidence and understanding, shared understandings for the betterment of any organization actually. So I've had experience of mentoring, and reverse mentoring wasn't something I'd had experience of because it's relatively new by comparison.

Speaker 4:

But having worked with SUHA over a number of years and as SUHA opened up over time and became more honest including the story about, you know, being allocated to a professor and the fears that that engendered I found that really personally enlightening actually, and I'd started to learn from doing work in the NHS with patient and public involvement and engagement, about this notion of power and how titles can create sentiments of power and who holds the knowledge and who holds the power and how that can actually be. Really it prevents true collaboration actually. It can prevent true co-construction because you've got one that's fearful. The person who doesn't feel they hold the power can be fearful on a number of different levels. So I really wanted to get involved with reverse mentoring because I knew it was something that could be of benefit to the university, but particularly for pgr students within the university and being passionate about research, I'm really passionate about research that captures the complexity of people's lived experiences and that includes cultural considerations which I think are still, to this day, largely overlooked.

Speaker 4:

So in doing this, it was natural that I spoke to Suha straight away because we wanted a co-constructor. We wanted to hear somebody who represented the PGR community, who we knew would be honest and and really open to contributing and and not hold back on because we need somebody who wouldn't hold back on the honesty of their lived experiences and and also someone who would be good, you know, in terms of interpersonal skills in working with the PGR community, encouraging them to sign up, because we know I guess, jenny, you'll be able to talk about this Sometimes we have we have had challenges in getting reverse mentors to sign up. There a sincerity when we were speaking to people about the reverse mentor program and to encourage and to support so that we would try and really be inclusive in welcoming the pgr community, global majority community, to taking part in this research.

Speaker 3:

We couldn't have done it without you, suhar, that's for sure is it likewise we also had um karenza and hodge joined us, didn't she as well, a bit later on, because she'd been involved in the university-wide uh reverse mentoring program a couple of years earlier. So it was great again to have another kind of student stroke staff perspective on on all things kind of research, um, and I guess that's perhaps the reason why I was kind of invited to join. So thank you both for inviting me to join.

Speaker 3:

I think Deborah had a hand in that as well.

Speaker 2:

So thank you, Deborah.

Speaker 3:

Because anybody that knows me knows I love all things coaching and mentoring so I was much, much excited to be part of it. But also I was involved in the university pilot wider scheme a couple of years ago and that gave me some real insights into kind of what works and what perhaps didn't work quite so well and we could take some of that learning into into this kind of that's me version, couldn't we?

Speaker 3:

and one of the things we did do is we added in more reflective sessions, which you are, you and I were kind of involved in with the reverse mentors and the mentees kind of separately, so in groups separately, which has really given us an insight in checking how it's all going and checking it's going well, but also to get a sense of what everybody's learning and the extra thing we put in that we didn't originally have in the uni-wide program, which I'm sure is in there now, though, is where we offer people the opportunity to have a one-to-one catch up, which not everyone takes us up on that, of course, but those people that aren't as comfortable or can't make the group sessions can come and have a little chat to myself or Debra about how it's going. That's been really insightful too, and similar themes coming through individually and as a group, but I thought perhaps, sue, how you and I could share a few of the themes that that are coming through from the reverse mentors and the reverse mentees. Just a quick one for me is that it's great to see the reverse mentors always seem to be quite surprised that the mentees are sort of listening and looking to make the changes. Of course, those people that volunteer to be mentees on a reverse mentoring program are the ones that are more willing to to listen and and have got some traction and some sort of power, if you like, to make some changes. But we've already seen some changes coming through in terms of thinking around our finance, processes, what else?

Speaker 3:

The paperwork that's involved in enrolling and sometimes that can put people off, particularly Suhar, as you say, if it's not somebody's first language, and it's not just understanding the processes and the order of things, but also what's written and what you need to gather to to complete it. And we've even had interesting discussions with students and senior leaders around the campus, buses and things like that. So it's been quite a wide, a wide range of things, hasn't it? Um, there's a real sense that the reverse mentors are sharing, feeling comfortable enough to share, but also the reverse mentees are really listening and thinking about you know what else we can do and what barriers we can, we can lift. Um, how about you? What have you noticed?

Speaker 5:

so I think, in terms of power dynamic, I think it's beautiful to see that in the first, perhaps two session there were a lot of questions what can I say and what can I not say? Can I lead or can I not lead, especially from the mentors, and I think the fact that they feel listened to, I think that has helped hugely with well, actually, it's OK for me to take the lead and share my experience and I think that has allowed and so that takes probably two sides the mentors and the mentees. That has allowed them to voice what they're experiencing. But also, I think it's so nice, as you said, they have so many good ideas that they want to implement and I think change happens with being listened to and then, hopefully, that can lead to coming up with different solutions and then, hopefully, that can lead to coming up with different solutions. As we have heard, they even come up together with different solutions and perhaps maybe how to implement changes, that's, doable changes.

Speaker 5:

So I think for me, what stands out is the journey from the first two sessions to now, two sessions to now, and I think that's the point of um, this, this program, is to feel listened to, because I think, again, the reason, as I said, why I wanted to to do this and be part of that is because I wanted to be a voice, and I think that's that. That's the uh, perhaps the main, the key thing for me is to be listened to and to be heard, because I think that in itself can elevate some relief and stress and to feel like actually, I'm not alone.

Speaker 3:

Absolutely fantastic, and getting people together in groups helps people see they're not alone and some of the ideas they're coming up with are similar ideas of others. And some of the barriers faced are similar, aren't they, sometimes, for others? But, tracy, you're a mentor as well on the programme as well as leading it, so it's an interesting dynamic for you. What are you noticing as a mentor, but also as being part of these reflective sessions with the mentees?

Speaker 4:

Well, there are some similar themes from mentees.

Speaker 4:

I would say because the mentees are people who hold position of power and usually make the decisions and lead the meetings and lead the conversation, and I think we've heard mentees say many times myself included actually that you have to be self-disciplined, because you have to be self-controlled not to lead the conversation, and we had I thought it was a fantastic illustration of a practical way of doing that in the last reflective session actually, where one of the mentees said I sit with silence and, rather than I would usually be the one to fill the silence and come up with the next question or suggestion, I sit with that and I leave that to my mentor to then take it where they feel they want to take it, and you know they explain that that way I'm leaving the power of the meeting with them, they're leading it and they're directing it, and I thought that was.

Speaker 4:

I thought that was an absolutely fantastic practical strategy for making it very clear that the power lies with you and you're leading this conversation. And and that actually is something that I hadn't, because I'm not comfortable with silence, as many people aren't. I try to be a qualitative researcher, so I should be, but, but. But you have to really be conscious about how you use silence and I listened to him explaining that and thought that's, that's a superb strategy. I'm taking that.

Speaker 4:

I'm going to use that, you know from a research perspective as well as a personal perspective. So that is the thing that again, I probably have worked with and had to be very self-conscious and self-controlled in working with when I'm sat with my mentor. Because the other thing I find and again mentees have said this is that sometimes mentors want to ask questions and they want to seek advice and they are still seeking mentorship, and so it's both learning to sort of understanding what the role is and I think in meetings we've talked about revisiting the roles sometimes haven't we and doing a refresher on you're the mentor and you're leading and they're the mentee and they're listening and and I've certainly it's not been problematic, it's been really pleasant, but there's certainly been those exchanges with my mentor where it has flipped and they've actually sought advice.

Speaker 3:

yeah, I mean, I think that's okay, isn't?

Speaker 4:

it.

Speaker 3:

I mean there's many roles when you're, when you're a reverse mentor or mentee, isn't there's many different hats that you're kind of sharing? So I think, yeah, it's long. You know it's levels off, isn't it? As long? As it's not all about advice giving or guidance giving. It's more about to pull out what you said before, about listening and think you know, what does the student or the reverse mentor really need right now? What can I offer? What's the right thing? And, like you say, suho, it's the journey, isn't it? It's the beginning. Maybe there's a bit more advice giving, but over time it's giving the student the tools to kind of do it for themselves a little, isn't it I?

Speaker 5:

think that's perhaps the roles here are reversed. I think we're very used to, as students or trainees, very used to bombard your lecturer with questions. I think now the other way around is because majority of all of them are quite open the mentees. So I think the role has a reverse in terms of let me tell me about you, let me out, just ask the question, and I think that's a beautiful way of getting to know someone else's culture, but also their experience as well, because we, you know beliefs and values. Cultural beliefs and values can be almost like a general thing, but everyone experiences differently. So I think that's the beauty for me. So it's, I think, both. It's a two-way learning, as I said, but having to sit back, I think that that's been beautiful to see from the mentors, mentees perspective brilliant.

Speaker 3:

And how about this sort of bit about the use of silence? Because, Because I mean, like you say, some people are comfortable with it, some people aren't sort of sitting in it, but some people might read other things into silence, might they? Could there be some cultural aspects of that perceived?

Speaker 5:

quite as cold and it's not done, it's not used often. And I know when I was doing my person centered approach module, I struggled with silence because you know, for instance, if you were to visit someone or if you were to go out, there is a sense of responsibility of you showing warmth, and warmth is shown through talking, asking, asking, keeping them engaged. So I think having to sit with silent is very powerful and I know that not from a cultural perspective, but from, uh, from my counseling, um uh program how powerful it can be, as you said, because it allows you to sit back and reflect. Yes, yes, it's uncomfortable, but perhaps, maybe that's what we have been avoiding. It's uncomfortable so you avoid. Silence allows you to sit with your emotions, which we don't do Either there is no time or there is a huge avoidance. So I think it's very powerful and I know that after three years, yeah, it's powerful and, like you say, it's part of the journey though, isn't it?

Speaker 3:

So when you first meet someone, you probably wouldn't sit in silence, would you? Because you need to build the rapport and get to know them and goal set, etc. But over time, when you kind of develop that relationship, you know whether silence would be useful or not, I guess. And that links to some coaching, mentoring kind of theory around Nancy Klein, time to think that kind of stuff, which is when we do try to give resources to both the reverse mentors and mentees around some of that stuff as well. But yeah, it's not for everybody, but it's definitely worth a try, isn't it? What about this power dynamic, because that's something you've both mentioned as well that's an interesting one, something that we try to cover in the training, when we train the reverse mentors and mentees and try to talk about who's in control, who's in the driving seat. But even though you say that there's a hand book and there's lots of guidance, that's still a tricky thing, isn't it? What's your thoughts about doing that better or differently, as?

Speaker 5:

you're, as you're talking about this, what came to my mind is, I know, as I said in the beginning, when, when I was, when they said, or they appointed Tracy as my supervisor, it took me ages to write one email as simple as when can we meet up? Because I was thinking about what's a very formal way of talking to a professor, and I think by the third year it was like Tracy, this is how I'm feeling, with emotions, with no capitals, nothing to think about. So I think for me, that was like how I went from feeling so scared about and being so conscious not scared, but conscious about how do I write, how do I talk to a professor to actually, you know, we will build such a I wouldn't say therapeutic actually you know we will build such a.

Speaker 2:

I wouldn't say therapeutic.

Speaker 5:

we build such a good relationship that I felt that. So, Tracy, allowed me to be me and not to think about these, but think about, to get about what's necessary. What's the underlying message? So I know I've sent you a lot of emails, tracy, apologies, but so, yeah, it's been, it's been for me. I think that's what you when you asked about power dynamic. It's as simple as just an email that I had about not just writing emails but also how to approach. Can I ask? Can I not ask? But also, I think there was a huge pressure for me. I need to show my professor that I have knowledge because she's very knowledgeable. But the pressure that I had to be, I wouldn't say, on the same level, but I wanted to show her that I've done my research, so prove to her if that makes sense Does that make sense.

Speaker 5:

Yeah, it does make sense Absolutely. How about you, Tracy?

Speaker 4:

Human connection is really, really important and it's connecting on a level, so it's showing interest in the person as a human. I think that's where it starts. You know, you talk about Maslow's hierarchy of needs, actually, and so when I think a successful mentor-mentee relationship is connecting as people first and foremost, and just showing a mutual interest in each other, and you know, I think when you do that, then you start to strip away all of these power dynamics, because you're interested in the person, you're not interested in their position or their responsibility or their role, and I think that's a really useful way of starting any relationship, irrespective of where that mentor-mentee relationship is just by really looking to connect with another person. Can I?

Speaker 5:

just add to that. So what worked for me, what made me or helped them build on my confidence to be working with a professor, is the. So, whenever I sought or seeked out for support, tracy will put it back on me and she would say to me Suha, you know it, it's your culture, you know what these women need, and I think that helped with boosting my confidence. But also for me to sit and think, well, actually, yeah, um, it's, yeah, this is an area that I, I, I know it's just finding the uh, perhaps the um, confidence to say, well, actually, this is how it is, and I think for me, um, I think one of the keys, as I said, one of the things that I have learned, is, for sure, confidence that actually, well, we can do it and I do know my, my stuff, and I think that was something that I learned from working with Tracy?

Speaker 3:

Absolutely. Someone said to me, once you're the expert of your own experience. I thought that was a fantastic phrase. So, absolutely, and that's what you bring. You both reverse mentor and mentee, bring their experience to it and, as you said, tracy, I always think a good start is having a genuine interest in that person and in that relationship, and if you start with that genuine interest, can't really go too far wrong, can it?

Speaker 5:

absolutely, I think, because majority of research is westernized focused, so you automatically assume it has to be based on that, it has to fit with that. That's, that's my, that was my thoughts before we developed a relationship as well as where I was able to bring my own ideas. So I think that in itself is a huge pressure. I can't deviate. I know if I want to apply a theory to, um, the population I'm studying, it has to fit with that. And I think what tracy helped me with is well, actually, if you're fitting that with the theory, then you're not doing anything different. So I think that helped me to say well, actually, yes, it could be applicable, but there are differences, and I think that was powerful.

Speaker 4:

There was something really important, I think, when we first started the mentor program and we had that first meeting with the mentors, a couple of them said I'm skeptical about this.

Speaker 4:

I was thankful for that, actually because, the reason I was thankful for that is that showed an honesty amongst the mentors from the outset. There was no holding back and we don't want them to hold back either. So where there's scepticism, we need to be aware of that because we need to. That needs to be acknowledged for a start, and that scepticism is usually based on good evidence and previous experience. But my mentor, who's been fantastic, talked about emotional labour and actually to talk about my lived experiences as a global majority individual pgr student, there's an emotional labor to that. Some of this is upsetting, some of this causes unpleasant emotions and I think we need to recognize the emotional labor that it takes for individuals to put themselves forward in the first place and to contribute to these programs and recognizing that lived experience and that expertise that these individuals undoubtedly bring to this reverse mentor program.

Speaker 4:

And that's why I think it's really essential that we do take it down to that human level and we show that interest, and we show that we're taking that information and those lived experiences and we're doing something with that to enrich our research environment within the whole university, not just within the university actually, but beyond that. Inclusivity doesn't stop within the boundaries of this campus, it has to extend beyond that. And if we start to work through iterations of the reverse mentor program and we increase everybody's cultural competence, then we're contributing to the wider environment as well.

Speaker 3:

And and and I think that's the shared goal of the reverse mentor program, because otherwise we are marginalizing expertise and intelligence if we don't do that- yeah, and I think that's a really, really good point, because that's one of the reasons why we have the reflective sessions and the one-to-one offer, because we recognize the emotional labor kind of connection of all of these sort of deep conversations about people's lived experiences. Well, we think you know what more can we do to reward these, these students, for taking part, because you know they're already busy students, they're researching, they've probably got a job, they've probably got other responsibilities, you know, and we're sort of asking people to share this expertise from their experiences and give their time for kind of free in a way. So I think that's something we're grappling with a little bit, aren't we? In terms of how do we reward particularly the students I mean for the, for those that are mentees in this scheme, that you know the senior leaders, they should be interested in student voice and what they've got to share. That's part of their job, so no need to pay them more.

Speaker 3:

Sorry, colleagues, but that's fair. But you know what about the students? You know we have looked at things like some sort of mentoring type, certificates and things, haven't we? We have tried to think about whether there's any opportunity to sort of remunerate them in some way. It's a tricky one, isn't it? But, um, there should be some way that we, you know, really amplify their contribution and really recognize that. But we're not quite sure how, yet are we? I mean, suha, what's your thought?

Speaker 5:

um, I think, perhaps something that's doable, manageable. Um, obviously it would be nice to to get paid. However, if that's doable, manageable, obviously it would be nice to get paid. However, if that's not an option, then perhaps celebrating them at the end, which we have thought about anyway. So I think for me that would be nice, where they could perhaps be given a certificate, but also I think for me, as you said, in terms of human connections, coming together and celebrating each other, because it's a six month project, it's not once or twice. So for me, I think that, as closure, that might be a nice thing, which we have explored. Yeah, I can't think of anything else.

Speaker 3:

I mean absolutely, we've got our first cohorts coming to an end sort of January time, so that'd be a good time. You know, new year, new beginnings coming to an end, sort of January time, so that'd be a good time. You know, new year, new beginnings, and it's really important when you have a mentoring or coaching relationship to have a sort of formal end point. So yeah, absolutely that's, it's a good reminder. We're definitely going to do that and that's what we did at the end of the uni wide program. There's lots of photos, lots of social media, lots of pictures of certificates, so it's a real nice way to to thank the students for getting involved. Absolutely.

Speaker 4:

Thank you, tracy the ideal would be to re-enumerate, because we're asking people to share expertise and what some of our mentors have been saying is I'm often asked actually to contribute. Well, you know, if there's an edi initiative, then I'm asked to contribute in some way and if, if I'm repeatedly asked to contribute, that's coming at the if I'm repeatedly asked to contribute, that's coming at the expense of other things I could be doing and it starts to become I'm not saying they're saying this, but I can imagine it starts to feel like a bit of an abuse because it's a one-way street or it could be perceived as a one-way street. So I think it's really important going back to that point about scepticism. If we're not showing mentors that we value their input in tangible ways, then I think I think that reinforces some of that skepticism yeah, absolutely so.

Speaker 3:

That's that's worth thinking about as a wider team, isn't it? And as we, as we think about how we can sustain this program beyond the that's me project, we can think about whether that's you know how we can make those sorts of things more of an option.

Speaker 4:

I guess, yeah yeah, yeah, I mean it could be that we offer courses or something cpd, something that's of benefit, something that people because it might be that people say, actually I'd like to access this course, you know some, some tangible something that benefits them, something that that that our mentors would want or wish for. But certainly we need to be acknowledging and crediting.

Speaker 3:

Absolutely, and we've got a reflective session coming up soon so we can ask the students involved then what their other ideas might be, which will give us some more insight and some more ideas for sure. But we definitely want this programme to sustain beyond the that's Me project. So in order to do that, we do need to think about, because we might be asking some of our student mentors to come back and help us for another round, etc. And you know that only seems fair to find a way to reward and thank them properly. Okay, I guess we're coming to the end of our podcast and our conversation, but do we want to end on one final kind of positive, each about being involved in the programme or how we see it going forward? Tracy, as the leader of the programme, should we start with you?

Speaker 4:

Yeah, I think my learning isn't going to stop. Actually I think it's initiated. Well, it's a journey that started some years back. Think, at the moment, personally, through the reverse mentor program, I'm on a. I'm on a learning journey to become more you know, to show more cultural humility and to be more culturally aware. And and actually my mentor on a different reverse mentor program recommended I read the book why I'm no longer speaking to white people about race, and I think that text I'd recommend to anybody actually, because, as a white woman, it helps me to appreciate.

Speaker 4:

We use the term privilege and the term privilege is banded around, I think, sometimes somewhat subconsciously or unconsciously, without really thinking about what it means. But when you, when you work with our PGR community and you, you learn and you hear the different cultural experiences, I think that really helps put your own experiences into some sort of perspective. So that's what I'm continuing to take from this and I hope that I can never see myself as the finished project in that regard. Actually, I think that's a lifelong learning experience which you know I fully embrace because it's really, really enjoyable thank you, tracy suha.

Speaker 5:

Yes, so for me, as tracy said, learning doesn't stop, um, I'm hope. Well, I have started using it, but I'm hoping to further elaborate on this and bring the experience that I've learned from here into the clinical setting. So, in hospitals, I work in hospital and so perhaps training staff, raising more cultural awareness, because, you see, you probably see the similar things in terms of, for example, during MDTs, patients struggling to speak up because there is an authority figure that decides what you can or can't do. So I think, using that experience I have learned from is from here, to perhaps implement changes within a hospital setting, clinical setting, quickly, and I know that, one which was very interesting one of the patients said I prefer when, when the doctor is not dressed smartly, because that when they are just casually, they're more approachable. So that's one thing that perhaps that has come out of this, which from learning from here, and then I'm hoping to build on that and improve clinical settings brilliant, thank you.

Speaker 3:

And as we move towards getting our cohort three together, you know I'm looking forward to taking the learning from the first couple of cohorts and making this one even better, even bigger and even better. But also we've all agreed as part of the project to do some research, haven't we? And to publish some of the learning that's coming through. I hope that we can involve some of the students, the reverse mentors, in that, and that's another way of, you know, amplifying voices. And just the final thing, I guess, is linking into something you said there, suha, is all the skills that the students are learning as reverse mentors and, of course, our senior leaders as mentees. All of those skills are skills beyond mentoring, aren't they? They're really making a difference and really, hopefully, building confidence of our students to, you know, to get their story out there. And it's Black History Month this month. It's about reclaiming narratives. It's getting your story out there, getting it heard and, as a result of that, making a difference. So long may that prevail. Thank you, thanks everybody, thank you, bye.