D.I.I.verse Podcast: Will it make the boat go faster?
Join Adam Vasco & Julian Gwinnett as they explore a range of topics under the umbrella of Diversity, Inclusion & Intersectionality through interviews with special guests. D.I.I.verse is a centre of excellence for Diversity, Inclusion & Intersectional approaches brought to you by The University of Wolverhampton. D.I.I.verse aims to lead a strategic vision for Equality, Diversity and Inclusion in the region and nationally. Through a team of academics, practitioners, and activists we aim to support colleagues in working towards a more equitable society. The podcast explores some of the themes, challenges and approaches in achieving these goals.
D.I.I.verse Podcast: Will it make the boat go faster?
Transforming Employment: Insights from Emma Carless and the British Association of Supported Employment (BASE)
Emma Carless, a leading voice in supported employment from Wolverhampton City Council, joins us to shed light on the transformative work of the British Association of Supported Employment (BASE). Discover how BASE tirelessly advocates for meaningful employment for disabled individuals, ensuring the right fit at the right time. Emma shares her personal journey, influenced by her brothers' experiences with severe learning disabilities, and emphasises the importance of personalised support systems that recognise and celebrate diversity within the workforce.
Prepare to rethink traditional employment practices as we discuss innovative approaches to supported employment, which prioritise personal strengths over conventional hiring methods. Together, we confront the challenges faced by disabled individuals, from recruitment barriers to the often stigmatizing language of disability. This episode reveals the stark disparities in employment rates, advocating for a shift toward more inclusive practices that benefit all, including employers, by tapping into a wider range of talents and perspectives.
Finally, we explore practical strategies to create inclusive work environments, such as job carving, flexible roles, and open communication. Emma and our conversation highlight the substantial impact employment has on mental health and well-being, offering insights into how supportive models can foster an equitable workplace. Through real-life examples and a call to action, we urge businesses to embrace necessary adjustments and recognize the immense social value of employing a diverse workforce.
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We are recording this podcast at the home of Wolverhampton University's Multimedia Journalism degree in the Alan Turing building on City Campus. The radio studio we are sitting in is kitted out to the same standards as places like BBC Radio 4 and 5 Live. It was installed alongside two studios as part of the new Wolverhampton Screen School. If you want to pop in for a guided tour, to discuss booking the studios or to chat about the journalism undergraduate degree, just email the course leader, gareth Owen.
Speaker 2:His address is gowen3 at wlvacuk hello and welcome everyone to another edition of the diverse podcast um, and it's my great pleasure and has been my great pleasure throughout this month, given that we are celebrating still celebrating disability history month, or certainly at the time of this recording to have many conversations with people about their lived experience, where they've spoken to me about their own personal journeys.
Speaker 2:But this month is not just for, it's not just a place for people to reflect on their own life stories. It's also a great platform for us to actually have conversations with individuals and organizations who help and support the disabled community, you know, help and support us to actually live the lives that have meaning, value and purpose, and also help us to overcome the many barriers and challenges we face, because everybody needs allies in life, um, and we are no different um, and given this year's theme, which is disability, livelihood and employment, I'm absolutely delighted today to have in the studio with me emma Carlos, who is a supported employment team leader at Wolverhampton City Council and a member of the British Association of Supported Employment, and that's quite a mouthful. So we're just going to refer to it as BASE from now on to make life a lot easier for me and my studio guest um now, according to base's website, uh, they are the national voice for providers of specialist employment support and they provide the principles and delivery of high quality supported employment services to work and work tirelessly to improve the employment rates of disabled people. So thank you, emma, and the benefit of everyone is perhaps unaware of what supported employment is. Can we begin this conversation by talking a little bit about what BASE is and what they do to help and support disabled people?
Speaker 3:Hiya, julian, thank you for having me. So BASE are a national organisation that we are members of as part of the City of Wolverhampton Council, and the idea is that everyone that wants to go to work and expresses the desire to go to work should have the opportunity to do that, and it's a big, big motto of BASE that is right job, right person, right time, and it's all the support that we put in for things to happen in order for somebody to become socially valued within the world, and our supported employment team in Wolverhampton really focuses and works alongside BASE to create more diversity and more inclusion within businesses across Wolverhampton.
Speaker 2:More diversity and more inclusion within businesses across Wolverhampton. So it's really about as a more tailored focus rather than a sort of pushing people into any form of employment. It's really working with that individual. It's working with their strengths and it's also working with, to some extent, maybe their limitations as well to some extent, maybe their limitations as well.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely so. I didn't know this existed. And, growing up with brothers that have severe learning disabilities, I'd gone through that system as a sister of them and it was really difficult to understand where they kind of wanted to go in the world, and for me, the most important thing for them was that they were able to live their life and live their world as I was able to.
Speaker 3:How we do things with supported employment is, rather than going out and just getting a job going out and just getting a job we look at a really person-centered approach and the person is at the heart of everything that we do, and we do that by using really unconventional methods in job searching and job seeking. So in the, in supported employment, we don't tend to use the average job seeking techniques such as applying with a CV or using an application form. It's more about looking at somebody's strengths, somebody's abilities, how they can do something, what their daily routine looks like, and it really does look at everyone in the picture, um, and it's person-centered, which also uses what natural supports they have, so, whether that be parents or carers, um, and that's how we do things.
Speaker 2:So it's a great way of addressing I mean, disabled people have tend to have a more sort of like they don't seem to have in some cases because of the having lots of time off for treatment and also many other barriers and challenges that we constantly face.
Speaker 2:Many other barriers and challenges that we constantly face we don't have the same sort of like employment experiences that a lot of other people take for granted, for instance. So particularly jobs that specify a lot of like previous experience are particularly barriers and challenges for disabled people, who maybe don't have that through no fault of their own and well, but have very different experiences which will come on later in this conversation which are equally valid and equally important. But maybe I guess what you're saying is is that this is more focusing on sort of like a strengths-based focus is could be really quite useful, not just for the individuals themselves but also employers as well, because that sort of like, that spiky sort of skill set profiles that a lot of disabled people have, might actually be really quite useful in terms of plugging some of the gaps that actually currently exist within our employment landscape.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's a really, really kind of valid point point as well, because one of the things and and we'll come on to this a lot later but some of the things that we look at is actually, how do businesses recruit? And a lot of businesses that say that they are um inclusive in their recruiting processes. Sometimes, when you break it down and you look at it, it doesn't actually happen because, um, if we take a lot of um roles within retail, many, many years ago, you could walk into the shop and hand in your cv and there and then, on the spot, you'd just kind of be given a bit of an informal chat and have a conversation and that's a little bit what supported employment looks like, because doing an online application for somebody, um, that is neurodiverse can be very daunting and very overwhelming. Um, and a lot of businesses that we go to just kind of give us the reply of just look online.
Speaker 2:But actually looking online and looking at your job description and looking at the tasks, you're not opening up your candidate world because you're limiting candidates that would apply for those roles now just to change the subject ever so slightly, because I feel this is a point I think we need to address, because this is something I became aware of relatively recently and on all of our previous episodes, we we occasionally breach this subject, which is the importance of like, having the right terminology, because labels do have an impact on people, and labels have an impact not just in terms of like, um, however people react and and and treat them and and respect them or don't respect them, but also how individuals themselves actually form an understanding of themselves and their value and their self-worth. And I can talk endlessly about this as an autistic person and increase it, and particularly when it comes to the difference between person first and identity first language, because I am absolutely an autistic person and I really, really dislike being referred to as a person with autism. I feel that is wrong on so many levels. Now, a lot I've referred to in previous conversations. I've used the term people with disabilities, but I wonder whether that is the right term, whether or not it should actually be disabled people instead. So, from your own experience, your own knowledge, what do you think is the right terminology we should be using within this conversation?
Speaker 3:um, well, I think, first and foremost, that it should be down to the individual to express themselves.
Speaker 3:Um, there's a lot of people that I have worked with within supported employment that don't wish to disclose that they have a disability. I've come across people that have such a negative notion of disabilities having had a disability disability themselves that they don't want to associate with disabled people. Um, then, my brother himself does not, or cannot, see himself as being um in need of extra support sometimes. Um, so I think for me, in answer to your question, it's about giving the person the right to express how they want to be expressed. First and foremost, I think names are the biggest thing, and when I've been out on jobs with people in employment and sometimes they are referred to as the disabled person or the person that needs that help, and actually the key fact of everything is they're still a person with a name and it should be addressed how they want to be addressed, and I think that's the important thing and this I mean in terms of um of what we were talking about earlier is there is a particular problem with an unemployment gap.
Speaker 2:Unemployment gap for want of a better phrase for disabled people compared with people who don't have a disability. The last figures that I saw from the house of commons library stated that the current employment rate for disabled people is around is 54.2 percent uh, compared with 82 percent for people who do not have a disability. And though that in itself doesn't tell you the entire story, because, in addition to that, as based on a conversation we were having just a moment or two ago, where you said that 55.4% of those with social care need are only 5.4% of those people with social care need are in employment. That's a significant gap. So why do you think this is the case?
Speaker 3:I think I mean the supported employment model itself comes from um only 40 years ago in kind of the 1980s, and it was kind of seeing that 40 years ago the world was a very different place and one of the most shocking things that I heard when I started my supported employment journey was that people with learning disabilities and autism as recently as the 80s 90s were put in asylums. And there was a gentleman that kind of realised that with the right guidance and the right support, these individuals could go on and work and he coined kind of the supported employment model and started something called training in systematic instruction, which is very visual and prompts people to learn a job rather than just going here. You go, go and do a job and things will be fine. And he nurtured this and the supported employment model has grown In terms of the figures.
Speaker 3:I think what's interesting as well is that only includes those that have stated that they have a disability and in terms of social care. So we work with those that are known to social care and it's because part of that reason is sometimes people see the social care as a little bit of a bubble, but they could bring so much with the right again, right support, the right guidance and that person-centered approach, they could bring so much to a business. And I think sometimes I will be very honest I was unaware of the supported employment world until five, six years ago and I accidentally fell into it and it has been the best thing that has ever happened to me because I have learned and grown so much and obviously with the support of um base. They have um supported and they offer out training to anyone who wants to kind of look at this world and look at how different it can be.
Speaker 2:And I think more and more people should just continue to get involved in the world of supported employment now supported employment exists for a reason because obviously, clearly, referring back to those figures disabled people have a particularly hard time in the world of employment. Um, but could you explain a little bit, talk a little bit about what those barriers actually are?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think with anything, regardless of who you are, what you do, where you come from, I think there's barriers along with everything, and barriers look different for everybody. I've been redundant, I've been out of work and it can be difficult to get back into that world and especially having the knockbacks. Now I'm quite a strong, resilient person, or consider myself to be quite strong and resilient, so I can take those knockbacks sometimes. But it does get disheartening when you do put the time and effort into things and you're not seeing kind of the fruits of your labour. For me, I think the biggest barrier for somebody maybe not in the world of supported employment is sometimes they're stereotypes that come out. Sometimes it is the not my problem, so I'm not going to deal with it, and it's really difficult and it's really difficult.
Speaker 3:And actually what I tend to notice is those that have a relative young person or are known to somebody with disabilities. Their outlook on things is very different to those who may have not come across that before. Lots of places say, yeah, we're inclusive and yes, we can do this, but actually, um, that doesn't always happen. Um, so the barriers really span across everybody and everything. Um, I would say the biggest barrier potentially would be lack of awareness and lack of understanding. It's things as well like reasonable adjustments, and when we talk about reasonable adjustments, I think that word in itself can be quite a grey area and some employers and businesses don't really grasp what a reasonable adjustment is, and I think sometimes they think they're expected to build a new building with a new seat, with a new office, with an all singing, all dancing system. But actually that's not the case, because in the wording it is a reasonable adjustment yeah, I'm.
Speaker 2:I was fortunate somebody relatively recently shared some information with me about um, the actual, the actual, true cost of reasonable adjustments. I think the average, the average cost of a reasonable adjustment is is only around 75 pounds and and many, many, many adjustments I'm actually don't don't have any cost involved at all. They're simply just a change to somebody's working environment, maybe allowing them to work from home, maybe allowing them to work from home, maybe allowing them to work a different start time and finish later, have more breaks, in order to actually prevent themselves from getting tired or overwhelmed. Really, really simple things to actually implement. Is the impact, what? What is the impact on of unemployment on disabled people particularly, particularly in terms of how it might affect their mental health and well-being and also, to some extent, I'm guessing, sort of like, just generally create a sense of like, of not belonging and and not feeling particularly valued or or respected for who they are yeah, that is.
Speaker 3:That is the biggest thing that I just love about what um me and the team do. So one of the statistics that came up when I first started this was the average life expectancy of somebody with a learning disability or autism, and it was significantly lower. I think it was something like 54 years old and it just blew my mind. And that is literally because if you're not doing anything with your world or your life, or you don't feel like you're giving back to anything, it's the same as everybody staring at your same four walls, whether that be in your own home, whether that be in a supported living accommodation, whether that be in a house share, whether it's in a flat the same people every day, every day of your life, I can imagine would really have a significant effect on your mental health and your well-being.
Speaker 3:The biggest thing, and the thing that makes me get up and come to work, doing supported employment every day and I'm sure that my team would 100% agree with this is seeing our job seekers, or anybody that uses supported employment, go to work, because the smile on their face, knowing that they are not waking up and staring at walls or doing their same routine, makes such a difference and that's what is really beaming. And one of the things that is really key to highlight is because some of our guys have not done that and have wanted to work but have not been given that person-centered outlook before they go to work and it's very rare they have sick days or they call in sick because they just want to go to work and make everybody in the team happy and I think that's kind of the biggest thing. That just makes it so joyful is seeing that person who may not have been given the opportunity to go to work is just the best feeling in the world.
Speaker 2:So this can be transformative for people's lives. It isn't just about giving them employment and isn't even just about giving them spending power. It's giving them a sense, know employment, and isn't even just about sort of like giving them spending power. It's giving them a sense of value and purpose and it really changed their transform and their entire outlook on life. So, that being the case and obviously there's a that would be a good thing to actually do more of, to enable more people to actually, you know, experience sort of like employment and particularly employment actually really works their strengths and their skills.
Speaker 2:So, but in order to do more with that, we obviously need to encourage more people, potentially employers, to actually sort of I work with a disabled community and actually given them those experiences. So, with that in mind, you know, how can organizations, employers, you know, create the kind of inclusive environment? But, and also also in focusing on inclusive hiring practice practice as well, which we talked about earlier, can be as a barrier, particularly CVS and application forms. So how can we have more inclusive environment, working environments, more inclusive hiring processes to ensure that disabled candidates have an equal you know, an equal opportunities?
Speaker 3:I think the key thing is be creative. There's no rules that say you must do a competency-based interview or you must find your candidates for your position via this way, and it is about thinking outside the box. It's also about thinking about how you look at your budget and look at where you can best place people. One of the things that really blows people's mind when we speak to businesses within Wolverhampton is the reduction in hours. We talk about those part-time hours and this is where it becomes person-centred. So if somebody can, will and wants to go to work for as little as two hours a week, they can. And sometimes when we ask businesses, can you just recruit for two hours a week? The very first thing that someone said to me a business it was director of a coffee shop in Wolverhampton said why on earth would somebody get out of bed, um, for two hours a week? By the time you've spent your money, got your bus pass and got here, it's time to go home, and that's the significant difference is it's not about seeing the monetary value. So some people don't go to work, um and have a concept of money because it's they've got appointees or it's been organized for them, and I think that's the significant thing is seeing the value in people, even if it was just for two hours a week, and it's looking at how you diversify that. So could someone work full-time, could someone work part-time? Do you really need somebody to go and do the cleaning for four hours a week or could it just be two hours? And I think that's a significant thing is looking at how you think outside the box.
Speaker 3:We also don't advocate competency-based interviews and it really blows my mind.
Speaker 3:I find it mind-blowing if we have, let's say, a barista job and someone asks somebody, can you tell me how you'd make a coffee, rather than actually seeing them on the job and seeing them make that coffee, seeing how they interact with customers, seeing how they interact with the team, and all of that again forms that person-centered approach.
Speaker 3:So you could be the best candidate in the world and tell me a story using all the words that I want to hear in a 20-minute sit-down competency interview and then go on the job and just not speak or not engage with our customers. Or I could actually see you as part of your working interview or work trial, how you really interact and are with the team, and that way you're getting the best out of a candidate you possibly can. So it's just looking at how different your practices are and the biggest thing I can say is ask people, ask around, what is there, who can you speak to If you're afraid? We have a lot of businesses that say we're unsure, we don't want to say the wrong thing or we don't want to upset anybody.
Speaker 2:We are there as supported employment to help you and we will be there throughout the process along the way so you just made a very, very valuable case there for the need for, um for training, for you know, um for, uh well, the role that training can play really in equipping managers and co-workers and also employers in being able to actually support disabled employees. Um so, what more? What more? What? What is your experience of the importance of training and actually being able to deliver a more sort of like a more inclusive working environment?
Speaker 3:so I think the biggest thing that I have found within our demographic of here is that it's awareness and it's sometimes when you recruit somebody and they then become part of your business. If you're a large organisation, you potentially have a HR department or a personnel department and that tends to be your first port of call. But if you're a small to medium-sized business, you don't always have a personnel department and it becomes kind of the director's or the manager's responsibility to look at that. And I think the key thing with with everything is to make sure that everybody is aware of where you can go for help. Um, a lot of things will happen in work. Life happens and it's who you can turn to and sometimes, um, there aren't always places that you can go to and then it becomes an internal problem and then maybe your employee becomes a little bit disengaged with work, and that can be quite a frequent thing. But actually having an external I don't want to use the word expert but somebody that is aware and does this as part of their job may be able to come in and speak to the team. We've had people that have been in work and been part of teams for over a year and a half now, but things happen. So, as long as the business know that we are there as supported employment, we will go back in and we will sort things out, talk to them, find out what's going on and maybe re-look at all those person-centered tools that we used previously.
Speaker 3:And also, it's that if you don't know, you don't know, do you? And again, like I said at the beginning, I did not know this world existed until five, six years ago, and joining it just blew my mind and changed my world really, not just in terms of I now get up and go to work and love my job, but personally helping support my brothers as well. And that's it. It's making people aware of where to go and get help you. Not all areas have a supported employment team um. We didn't have one until um we launched in 2023, but if you search for support employment or learning, disabilities or autism within wherever you are, you will find some support that will be able to help you and guide you through this. Plus, speak to your schools and your um schools in the area that um work with people that have autism, disabilities anything, because they um also can point you in the right direction. And we also need to aspire um the next generation.
Speaker 2:Now, something I've become aware of relatively recently is something called job carving, and in fact, I actually have to credit you with that, because I think you were the person that actually first introduced that concept to me. Now, one of the major barriers and I can talk from experience here, as many, many disabled people face is is employers not knowing how to work with our strengths which we talked about earlier and being quite focused a lot on the things that we find challenging. Instead, what role do you think job carving might play, actually in sort of like helping to create a situation in which a role can be tailored to sort of like work to somebody's strengths?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's really. I'm glad you kind of point me out on stuff, julian, because I don't always remember that I didn't know these things. Remember that I didn't know these things. And actually job carving is where you take a role and it could be a really kind of. I think the main thing to say is we don't always re-evaluate and look at our job descriptions and we kind of get a job, put a job description together, put a person specification together and go get it out to advert quickly. We need staff. But actually sometimes, going back to that reduced hours, do you really need a business admin person for 35 hours a week or could you look at carving that role to reduce the hours? But then what it also looks at is reducing elements and taking elements away and adding elements to more skilled staff so you could get somebody that has a disability, that may not like speaking to people, but they could be an absolute whiz at sending out your data, your emails, your reports, and so it just looks at taking away that role of the telephone and carving that role out to make sure the rest of the team pick it up so that that individual can just deal with all the data and analytics.
Speaker 3:There's lots of kind of different examples of this. Lots of businesses do have job carving policies and it's useful to always query and ask if you've got a job carving policy. One of the things that people get confused about is sometimes it just looks like we're going in making it up and just making a job for somebody, but it's not what we do and what the British Association of Supported Employment would look at is completing a task analysis, so looking at every single section of that job and every single role within that job. We may come in and watch you. You may work within a team and we'll say can we just sit and spend the day with you and see what it's like to work with you? And then we'll create a profile very similar to how we would work with, create a profile very similar to how we would work with people with disabilities and create their person centered profile.
Speaker 2:We do the same with a business. So, as I see this and I'm very intrigued by this concept because I see this as being an ultimately win win situation for everybody, both for employers as well as employees because effectively what you're doing is you're creating a workforce where everybody's working to their strengths, whereas where it seems to be more commonly the case today is everybody's in a kind of a generic role in which they're sort of like above or slightly below average in a variety, in a broad skill spectrum, skill sets, rather than actually finding the things that they're really really good at and focusing mostly on those areas. This would create sort of like a much, much more productive, sort of like environment, and I'm guessing you could extend that a little bit further where you might, for instance. So the focus in a way, as I understand it, would be less on the actual role and more so on the actual experience and skills that an individual has. I know skills and experiences might not be confined just in one role. They could work across several roles within an organization, actually helping that organization to grow in so many ways and also in obviously empowering that individual.
Speaker 2:Um, but it isn't just.
Speaker 2:I mean this conversation is we've so far, we've talked almost exclusively about people who already have disabilities, who are you know, and and the struggles that they actually experience getting into getting into employment.
Speaker 2:But I think we always forget this that disability is something that happens to people at any point in their lives and indeed I can quote figures where that say that the older you, as as you, as you, as you age, your chances of becoming disabled also increase quite significantly beyond a certain age. Not that I want to worry people listening to this podcast, but with that in mind, I actually came across some interesting research, actually some statistics actually from the UK Parliament's website that states that 83% of people who have a disability acquire it whilst they are in work. So that's quite a significant number of people who are currently in employment in a job role that suddenly their life changes and along with that, that can have significant consequences for the role they're doing and there might need to be some kind of adjustment needed in order for them to actually carry on. But do you feel, with that in mind, that we need to be equally focused on providing support for disabled people in work to remove the barriers and challenges they face after they require a disability as much as before?
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. I think it goes back as well to what we were saying earlier about that social value of things and, as with anything in life, sometimes it's about that healing process.
Speaker 3:I'm sure many of us have kind of broken a bone at some point in our life and actually that stops you from doing things when you are in a cast or on your recovery journey. And I think for me, the biggest thing is the help and advice that you are given. If you go to a hospital, they are going to give you medical advice because their job and their role is to make sure that you are on the road to risk recovery. If you're in employment, your advice is going to be given depending on what your boss is like Really. They may be quite empathetic and say, look, your health is more important and you need to rest up and recover. Or they're gonna say, well, we need to look at what you do now.
Speaker 3:You you've broken your arm, you can't quite do the computer and they should be able to access. Let's say, you have broken your arm and you could dictate your email and may not be able to type. That is a reasonable adjustment. And I think that's the important thing is, you're not going to know these things if you don't know where to get them or how to address them. And I think that's the thing in life and a lot of what we're talking about today is it's that age old saying of sometimes it's not what you know or who you know. It's what you need to know, and until something happens to you, you don't need to know it. And I think that's what is significant in this conversation is making everybody aware that these things are out there if you need them so, along with reasonable adjustments, are there any other um resources?
Speaker 2:are there any other avenues of support that um people can sort of access, should they actually find themselves in need of them because they've acquired a disability whilst they're actually in work?
Speaker 3:yes, there's a lot.
Speaker 3:There's lots of different referral programs nationally, your local.
Speaker 3:If you go on the base website, there's lots and lots of teams, providers and businesses on there that are all have all gone through kind of the base knowledge and awareness and supported employment.
Speaker 3:And then, locally, you will also find lots of information in terms of referrals and information, referrals and information. One of the key points that we have is we are very aware that sometimes someone might not be able to express themselves, so we put in what is known terminology wise in our world as a job coach, and that job coach will go to work with an individual if that has been identified on their vocational profile, support plan, initial assessment, and they will coach them in work and be the person that the business can speak to, that the young person, adult individual can speak to and that the supported employment team can speak to to make sure that everything is going as smoothly as possible. Um, it will be the link between parents, carers, social workers so that everyone can understand that that individual is safe and supported. Um, and there are also programs through your local job center that you can get support and advice from as well just to change the conversation slowly to focus specifically on new diversity was obviously.
Speaker 2:I have a vested interest in this in this um. Now, I quoted earlier statistics stating that around 54% of disabled people are in employment. However, what really shocks me is that when you actually look at that information further and particularly to focus on neurodiversity, that currently it's around 30% to 40% of neurodivergent people are unemployed, and again, when you look at it even deeper than that, particularly focusing on autism, um, it's actually 78 percent, which I actually find really difficult to actually get my head around in many respects. Um, why do you think this is the case and what are the? What are the specific chat? I can talk about my own experiences here, but I mean, what would? What do you think are the specific challenges that neurodivergent people face seeking employment?
Speaker 3:I think it is what we were. What we've been discussing is it is things are very um, you must have this, you must have this, you must have this. And when you read that, as a neurodivergent person, you cannot apply for a job, because it says, fill in this application. Or one of my biggest kind of concepts is forms, application forms that are pages and pages and pages long and you kind of get to fill in your name and address, because that's the bit that you know, and then everything else just becomes a little bit of a blur and recruiters and businesses are missing such a pool of talent because they're using application forms even more so now as well that we're in the digital world of application forms that it doesn't even allow you to read through the full application form before you decide whether or not you're going to pick through that application form and do it because it's 15 pages long, because you can't see ahead of the application form. So it gets to question four and you've already clicked next question, next question, next question, and it just takes forever. So you end up just giving up really, and by not opening your recruitment processes you're losing people through your just your recruitment process, and then that can just put you off looking like regardless. It will just stop you looking, because if you're looking for the same job, let's say a science teacher, and all the the same things happening application form, application form, application form you're just going to stop applying.
Speaker 3:And I think that's one of the things and that goes back to that job carving and that inclusive recruitment that if you just maybe opened up your school one day when there were no other children in, you stayed behind for, let's say, four till five and you said, right, if you want to be a science teacher, come to this venue on this day, on this time, and we'll have a bit of a round robin, and I think that will open up a more diverse recruitment. And I think statistically that's why the figures are so low, because people avoid doing it. And then you've got supported employment teams who are then going in, going. Can you just change your recruitment process and that person that's in, let's say, wolverhampton will go. No, actually I can't, because Donna does it and she's based in the Sheffield head office. I'm not then going to travel to the Sheffield office and say, can you change it? And it's a real team effort to change those processes, but it's happening.
Speaker 2:First edit of the day. So you've talked a bit, though, about the actual barriers that neurodivergent people face in terms of the application process itself and how inflexible that can be. But is there another element to this, which which might be that to some extent, the employers have some mis outdated and understanding or even misconceptions about neurodivergent people themselves? That kind of need to be challenged, and what are those? Um, I've seen some evidence of this in terms of there was a you gov poll that was done back in 2019 that I think they um asked 601 employers and two of the findings from that report were that, uh, a significant, it was over. Uh, it was nearly 30%, so it was around about a third actually. That said that employers felt that an autistic person in particular wouldn't fit into an environment, and also many other employers felt that they would require too much in the way of adjustments and support. But I'm interested to hear what your own experience is.
Speaker 3:I think since starting supported employment, I think my eyes have been opened to some of the questions that I have been asked, and I think sometimes it can be that people assume that they know neurodiversity. We often hear a lot of the time oh, I know all about it because Sarah's daughter at number 32 has got autism. Or oh, me granddad's aunt had that. And I think that's what it is and everybody's world is different. Regardless of your ability, everybody's world is different and the way that people are is different and that's what makes the world a better place and that's what makes the world a better place. I think stereotypes play an important part of addressing barriers and some people can't always express that. That's not acceptable and I think that's the important thing. I will never forget starting this job, that someone. We are very open as a supported employment team. We don't believe in hiding, we believe in celebrating, and that doesn't mean that we're going to go and shout it from the rooftops that someone with a disability is in work. It's all about that inclusivity. Work, it's all about that inclusivity. Somebody should be made to feel exactly the same as any other colleague. We're not asking for supported employment is not about asking for special treatment and I think that's a really important thing to mention is this isn't about creating a special treatment for somebody. It's about making adjustments for someone.
Speaker 3:One of the things that um happened to me many years ago was we told um we always tell businesses um what, what, the what, what we do and um. On one occasion we had a young person he was in his 30s that was matched to a job role within a business within Wolverhampton and matched it down to a T, from the IT skills to the culture of the workplace, to what they were looking for in terms of an individual, and all of that was matched to the job once it had been job carved. But the only thing that the team needed advice and support on was when we told them they could be a little bit startled if you come from behind. So if you talk to them and you have not, they have not seen you approach them. The difficulty would be is they would maybe a little bit startled and potentially remove themselves out of the situation because they would find that really difficult.
Speaker 3:And, as lovely as the hiring manager was, they went oh, don't worry, we won't do that, we'll just sit them with their back to a wall so that they can see who's approaching them and when asked oh, will they be with the team? Oh, no, no, they'll just sit over there with their back against the wall. They'll just sit over there with their back against the wall. And we had to explain that that wasn't inclusive, that we're making you aware that this could happen, but you don't need to remove them out of the team. They still need to be part of the team. And after that we did kind of a little bit of a rounded approach with them and we sat with them and we gave the team some scenarios that might happen and how to manage them. That individual now has been in their role for for over two years and absolutely flying high.
Speaker 2:Um, recently I we keep in touch with a lot of our businesses and I had a conversation and they said that more people needed to be given the opportunity because they're just an amazing member of the team so that's a great example of what can actually happen, not just for that individual, but also the organization they now work for and how they've actually helped them, through that person being given the opportunities that they previously wouldn't have had. And you kind of talked a little bit about this. But I just wonder is do you have any general advice in terms of what what employers could do into to basically transform both their recruitment policies, practices, but also their workplace environments so that they are actually more inclusive for people with disabilities and, particularly, since we're talking about neurodiversity, for neurodivergent people?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think the biggest thing is and this is going to sound really bad, but don't lie is the biggest thing. When you say to us that you are disability confident or that you are an inclusive employer or you're a diverse employer, I am going to ask you how tell me, how tell me why. Why do you think that you're inclusive? And if one of the first things that you say is, oh, we make sure that, um, they are, um, a bottle of water on the table so that, if they need it, they can have a drink, those are not the processes that I'm looking for. Um, so for me and this kind of goes out to a lot of national businesses how do you do it? If I was to approach you and ask you, could you do this? I just want the answer to be yes. If it's not suitable for you, or you don't understand it, or you want another meeting, I will accommodate your business and make sure that I fit into your time around your table and I'll be as flexible as you need to. Don't pass me off, don't fob me off, and speak to people. If you do not want to work with somebody, just say no, it really doesn't matter, because you're just going to waste people's time. Otherwise, don't tell me, oh, it's a maybe, or Pete in HR deals with that. You should be dealing with it.
Speaker 3:I don't want to hear, oh, that's not for us or it's another department, because that is not inclusivity. I want everyone to be aware. What I'm not asking is for everyone to hold a horn or wear a light and say, look, look, this person, um, has a disability. That's not what I'm looking for at all, because actually we shouldn't be seeing it. If you walk into um Costa tomorrow and see um somebody working, you shouldn't be able to know that that person has had a supported employment model and that person has been recruited another way.
Speaker 3:That is what the inclusivity is there for, and just more people, more people to do supported employment. So I also that it is national, but we're such a small team and with all the figures that have been given during today, there's clearly a need for it and I think for me, the more people that embrace, look at and shout about supported employment and not just supported employment. There are lots of different supported employment models. So, if you're a young person with an EHCP, there are supported internships which allow you to study and do a work placement, there are inclusive apprenticeships or accessible apprenticeships, there are supported self-employment, there's supported social enterprises. The more and more people that raise the awareness of this, the better it will be for everybody and I don't just mean people with disabilities, but everybody because it is so fulfilling and it's such a fun um different job and I absolutely love um what it stands for and what I do daily um we've said, we've kind of this, mentioned this so many times throughout this conversation, I think even right at the beginning when we actually started talking.
Speaker 2:But just for me to summarize here I mean disabled people. We are so creative and mostly because we live in a world that isn't designed for us and we have to be in order to actually cope with the demands that world places on us and the many challenges and barriers that we have to overcome on a daily basis. But you know, beyond that, even we are just extremely innovative. We are very, very resourceful and natural problem solvers, and these of, of course, are all incredibly sought after transferable skills that a lot of employers value very, very highly. But there's kind of a paradox here because even though we self-evidently have all of this, it isn't widely understood and it's certainly not widely acknowledged and recognised. So what, if anything, I mean, do you think can be done actually to sort of like draw attention to this, to make employers more aware of the benefits of employing disabled people in their workforce?
Speaker 3:I think the key thing is have the conversations. Get in touch with your local authority, get in touch with the DW authority, get in touch with um, the dwp. Look on base website and try and find within your area who there is to contact to advise and guide you. Um, there's lots of things that we come across. You may have worked for a business for a year. You may have worked for a business for 20 years, and what do you do as a business to continue the momentum? Really? So I think the biggest thing is we all, whether you're a manager, whether you're a business owner, expect your team to come in and get on with their job, because that, effectively, is what they are paid to do. But there's also a lot more to it. You know, life happens. Family happens, births, deaths, marriage everything that is involved in life happens and that can have significant impacts on somebody, and sometimes even more so with somebody that has other conditions.
Speaker 3:I think the biggest thing is being open and honest and being able to have those conversations. If staff don't feel that they can have a conversation with you about them feeling maybe a little under the weather, or maybe that they have been re-diagnosed, or maybe they have grown up with being undiagnosed and it's only recently in adult life that they're becoming diagnosed and that kind of is a lift for them. So in the medical world they have something called health passports, which are quite familiar, and I think we do a bit of a tick box exercise when we do the recruitment applications. Do you have a disability? Tick here, tick, and then there's no kind of real reason or explanation behind it.
Speaker 3:And I think for me it is about being able to have that conversation. So if a team member comes to me and says I have recently been diagnosed with ADHD or anything similar or another condition, I would expect to have a conversation with them how, what do you need? And that's the biggest thing what do you need from me as your employer? How can I adjust things? Do I need to adjust things?
Speaker 2:and it's that conversation that we need to encourage and make sure that everybody has so having that conversation is really, really important, but also thinking about the future, as which is something we like to do an awful lot here on this channel, and we always end these conversations with our final question, which is how do we make the boat go faster? Why do I always have trouble saying that? How do we make the boat go faster? How do we imagine a world that is much more inclusive than it is today? How do we imagine, you know, what would that world look like? How would people thrive in that world? How would they flourish? How would the barriers and challenges that currently face no longer exist begin to actually build that world, and what do we need to do that so that, if we come back in a year, five years or 10 years time, that we have a very, very different conversation in this studio? Not that the world is perfect, um, but it's significantly advanced from where we are now I think for me, the well.
Speaker 3:I'll kind of do a personal reflection and a world reflection. So my personal reflection is I would like to, in the future, not have to explain my job title. The biggest things I get asked when I meet someone or someone asks me what I do is I go I'm a supported employment team leader and everyone gets team leader. And then they look at you a bit blank and say, sorry, a what? And I would love the words supported employment, exactly what it says, supported employment to be more recognised, not just with employers, but with professionals, with social workers, with anybody that is in a preparation for adulthood world or in the adulthood world. I would love to not have to explain my job title and people for just to be aware what supported employment is. That is my biggest goal, um goal, and I think in order to achieve that this what I'm about to say has to happen.
Speaker 3:So there is um and there's been the white paper recently released, um with more trying to get more disabled people back into work. But you could give out thousands and thousands and thousands of contracts and money to businesses, to providers, to people that say, yes, yes, we'll get more disabled people into work. Yes, just give us the money, we will recruit 10 staff and then we'll fill out a CV, we'll do an application form and more people will go into work. But with supported employment it is about place, train and maintain. You could get 50 people with neurodiverse conditions possibly into work, but it won't last if you don't follow right job, right person, right place and place, train and maintain.
Speaker 3:So for me, the biggest thing is to look at the world of supported employment for more providers, more training providers, more places to be more aware of what supported employment is and how that could benefit more individuals into employment.
Speaker 3:Then the other thing to look at is change Change with businesses and change with recruitment, and that is the everything has a knock-on effect. I am so incredibly grateful of the supported employment team within Wolverhampton and all the support from BASE itself, because without them I wouldn't be able to pass on the world of supported employment here to my team, to the businesses that we work with in our area. But the more people that understand it and the more businesses that understand it, the more happier the world of work will become for so many more people. And that is the key message really from me is people often moan at me for not showing up, and that's because I absolutely love what I do and believe it is the right thing by anybody and I think it can be used. So I talk about supported employment, but actually the model is also used for um mental health, um recovery, um drug and alcohol addiction, and the model works and the more people that know about it, um the better thank you, emma.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for being my wonderful guest today and for such an inspiring and and thought-provoking conversation, and thank you to all of my listeners I said my listeners for the first time ever. Our listeners um, I'm not taking ownership of this podcast just yet um, for your spending the time to listen to it, to us talk today. Um, just a reminder that we are doing a series of events currently for disability history month at the university, and you can find details of those events on our web page, which is wwwwlvacuk. Forward slash disability history month, and please look out for reminders and consider subscribing to this channel wherever you get your podcast channels for, and I look forward to all of you coming back for our next episode very, very, very soon. Bye.