D.I.I.verse Podcast: Will it make the boat go faster?

Celebrate Neurodiversity Week With Us

• Adam • Season 3 • Episode 5

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Dive into our latest episode as we explore the vibrant theme of Neurodiversity Week, a crucial initiative celebrating and advocating for individuals with neurological differences. Joined by expert guests Zoe Stewart and Catherine Lamond from the University of Wolverhampton, we discuss the significance of understanding neurodiversity in educational environments. This week-long celebration invites all to challenge stereotypes and promotes a culture of inclusion that acknowledges the unique strengths of every individual. 

In this episode, our hosts and guests dissect the importance of creating adaptive learning spaces that cater to the diverse needs of students, highlighting the essential shift in perception from viewing neurodivergence as a deficit to embracing it as a natural version of cognitive diversity. With powerful personal narratives and insights, we shed light on the challenges neurodivergent individuals face daily while emphasizing the significance of supportive networks and open communication.

With Neurodiversity Week just around the corner, get inspired to engage and celebrate with us at the University of Wolverhampton as we aim to create a more inclusive world. We encourage our listeners to share their stories, join fostering understanding, and participate in activities planned throughout the week. Together, we can reshape perceptions and foster environments where everyone belongs. Look out for our upcoming events and connect with us for a community that champions neurodiversity! Don’t forget to subscribe, share, and leave us a review!

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Speaker 1:

We are recording this podcast at the home of Wolverhampton University's Multimedia Journalism degree in the Alan Turing building on City Campus. The radio studio we are sitting in is kitted out to the same standards as places like BBC Radio 4 and 5 Live. It was installed alongside two studios as part of the new Wolverhampton Screen School. If you want to pop in for a guided tour, to discuss booking the studios or to chat about the journalism undergraduate degree, just email the course leader, gareth Owen.

Speaker 2:

His address is g Earth podcast here at the University of Wolverhampton Another episode of the Diverse Herd podcast. Here at the University of Wolverhampton, I'm delighted to be joined in the studio today by Zoe Stewart. Zoe is a senior lecturer in taught postgraduate provision. We're also joined by Catherine Lamond, who is a senior lecturer in special education needs needs, disability and inclusion studies. And the reason why we're gathered here today to have this conversation is because we're going to be coming up talking about this year's upcoming neurodiversity week, which is a week-long celebration of all things neurodiverse. And but now, before we delve into our conversation, I think we should begin by saying what is Neurodiversity Week? Who wants to take the?

Speaker 3:

reins and answer that I'll take that one, julian. So Neurodiversity Week is an initiative to celebrate and raise awareness of neurological differences such as autism, adhd, dyslexia, dyspraxia, etc. And the aim is to challenge stereotypes and misconceptions and to promote understanding and inclusion, and I think it's really important that the university is involved with this. We have been involved in previous years and I think it's a great opportunity for the university to signal its commitment to inclusive environments for our students and to help staff and students learn how to support neurodivergent people. It looks at accessibility across the university and engagement and hopefully will encourage institutional change over time. So I think it's really important that we're involved as a university.

Speaker 4:

And I think this year it's the week beginning 17th of March. Is that correct? Yes, it's a great day, I think this year.

Speaker 2:

It's the week beginning 17th of March.

Speaker 3:

is that correct? Yes, it's Patrick's day. We're also hosting, as part of Neurodiversity Week, the ADHD Foundation Umbrella Project over at Warsaw, which will be really exciting. So it's a collection of very bright umbrellas that will be suspended from the ceiling and then we'll be putting students' work and student ambassadors into the foyer to talk about Neurodiversity Week and our involvement in it.

Speaker 2:

So remind me what's the significance of umbrellas.

Speaker 3:

It's just a bright and colourful way of explaining that neurodivergence as an umbrella term, covering those things that I mentioned before. So autism, adhd, dyslexia, dyspraxia, covering those things that I mentioned before. So autism, adhd, dyslexia, dyspraxia. And although it is run by the ADHD Foundation, they are keen to stress that it is an umbrella term neurodiversity.

Speaker 2:

Now we've had many, many, many conversations, as regular listeners will know, about neurodiversity on this podcast channel, but I'm acutely aware that everybody has their own understanding and experience of neurodiversity. So how would you define neurodiversity yourselves, and why do you?

Speaker 3:

think it's important in education for us to have that understanding. I'll take that first. So to me it's about natural variation in human brains and thinking styles, and I would liken it to biodiversity in nature, and I think it covers those conditions that we talked about before. So autism, adhd, but acknowledging that they're not disorders, they're differences. And so the second part of your question was about why it was important in education, and I think it's that shift for me from focusing on students or neurodivergent people needing fixing to thinking about our environments and how we adapt our environments to be more inclusive, because if we can support our neurodivergent students, then everybody benefits.

Speaker 4:

Inclusive practice isn't necessarily about neurodivergent people, it's about access for everybody yeah, we talk about and we teach about specific learning difficulties, but I would really like us to move away from that term and think about just learning differences, that there isn't a one right way to learn and to grow and develop. You know there are lots of different ways um to learn in education, to explore new ideas.

Speaker 2:

So, yeah, we really need to embrace difference as being a positive, not some sort of problem to be overcome so it's kind of like learning to understand that we live in a beautifully diverse world and within this beautifully diverse world there are many different neurotypes and there were many as and there are also, in accordance with that, many different ways of seeing and understanding and experiencing the world. And a diverse world is one in which everybody, with as many different ways of experiencing life, has the opportunity to share those experiences and they're all equally valid.

Speaker 3:

And I think it's that shift from problematising neurodivergent people and our students, who might have a range of challenges and strengths, to making sure that our environment's supportive and benefits everybody.

Speaker 4:

I think it's also about really taking on board that diversity is a strength, it's not a weakness. We can all learn from each other. Different perspectives are really valuable.

Speaker 2:

So, yeah, we need to be inclusive to our diverse student body and is this a way of addressing what many people in the new divergent sort of like community myself including encounter quite a lot of? Is this, uh over generalization, the idea that particularly in in in education, but also in employment as well actually, especially employment that the ideal person is somebody who is equally good across a very broad spectrum of different sort of like subject areas and you know skills and like job roles, rather than somebody, as tends to be from my own experience, somebody who's very highly skilled in one area and maybe not so much in other areas and understanding how those profiles work, in order to create environments that work with people who have those profiles, in order for them to become the best versions of themselves, not just for their own benefit, but for all of our benefit.

Speaker 4:

I do agree, and I think I often talk about kind of spiky profiles, where somebody will have great strengths and interests as well as areas that they find more difficult, and what we have to avoid is focusing on the areas that they find more difficult. And what we have to avoid is focusing on the areas that they find difficult, because then people can feel that they're failing, that they're not coming up to scratch, when actually we should be focusing on the strengths and the things that they are really good at.

Speaker 2:

So a bit like we all know that the classic scenario of the the um, the square peg in a round hole, and how our default way of addressing that situation is to chip away at that square peg to try and round off the corners in order for it to fit in that hole, without thinking. Maybe the best approach might be to actually widen the hole itself so that it's actually able to accommodate that square peg in the same way that you would do with a person and work with them, not against them.

Speaker 3:

I think that's something we certainly work really hard at over in FU is that flexibility and that idea that how can we as a faculty, accommodate our students and and have that flexibility rather than problematizing our students, and I think that's something that we've worked really effectively on. But we don't stand still, you can't, you can't. You never reach a stage where you can go okay, we're inclusive. Now. It's a journey, and I think it's something that we're certainly in our faculty, really passionate about yes, I agree in, inclusion isn't sort of an end point that you get to, is it?

Speaker 4:

um, we have new students, new colleagues, um, people do change. So it is really thinking about how can we meet that challenge of addressing different needs, thinking about what we offer rather than thinking how people are going to fit in to what is already there do you feel either of you?

Speaker 2:

that's a part of the challenge that newer divergent students and just as new divergent people themselves encounter, which is quite a lot of misconceptions and misinformation about, firstly, what their challenges and issues are, but also you know, what they can actually do and what they can't do I think one of the the first big misconceptions is that all autistic people are the same, and so quite often if if I decide to to disclose that I'm an autistic person, people go, do you like trains?

Speaker 3:

um, and there are these sort of real generalizations. But there's huge variation in neurodivergent communities um, and, as a result, there isn't a one-size-fits-all approach um that will work in any aspect of life, but certainly in he um.

Speaker 4:

I think there's also this misconception that neurodivergences is really rare, but a significant proportion of our, our students, are neurodivergent um, just as as there is in the in the wider population yeah, I think there are common misconceptions, not just in the university and society in general, about dyslexia, for example, that that must mean that the individual finds it difficult to read and write, when that's not necessarily the case. And I have heard people say things like if somebody shares that, they're autistic. People saying, oh, but you can't be, you're sociable, when it's clear that there are real stereotypes and fixed notions of what neurodivergence means.

Speaker 3:

I think there is that fixed idea as well that if there's a label, that there's a struggle academically, and that's absolutely not the case. Many of our students have got lots of strengths, such as creativity, problem solving, they're able to deeply focus on an area, and all of these strengths should be celebrated and supported so that our students can be successful.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I just want to echo some of the things that you both said, actually, because that's also my experience as well, particularly when it comes to sharing my diagnosis, might, might. I'm really proud of being an autistic person, but you know, I wasn't always. It's took me a long time to actually come to that situation and now I feel like I want to share as much as I possibly can about what I feel are the wonders of being you a divergent, because I really do believe that it's a wonderful thing. I feel very privileged to, you know, have the mind that I have and the way the, the understanding of the world that I have, as on account of the mind that I have, um, but generally speaking, I think I, I, you know I have about four separate reactions when I reveal that I'm autistic to somebody, and the first one is but echoing what you said, katherine, but you can't be autistic because you can talk. You know, you're not Rain man, for a start, and I think that film still actually right, literally influences a lot of people's understanding of what autism is, even today, 30 years later, maybe even 40 years later, um, and the second one is is it is, but it must be really mild.

Speaker 2:

And I really, really, really have to bite my tongue when I hear that, because I think that you, somebody saying that, doesn't quite understand what the challenges and barriers that you know neurodivergent people face on a on a daily basis, and that that statement seems to minimize those challenges and those barriers. It must be mild. How can something, how can you dismiss something so readily without having you know, an informed understanding? You know an informed understanding. And then the third one is, again echoing what you're saying, zoe, which is you know, my cousin's, boyfriend's, sister's, friend's uncle has autism. They really like dinosaurs. Do you like dinosaurs as well? Because obviously we're all exactly the same. There's no variance whatsoever. We all have the same interests. But occasionally you get a different response. Occasionally you get somebody says that's really interesting, can you tell me more about that?

Speaker 3:

And I don't know whether you found this, but I've come to realize that when I hear that, when somebody asks me that they're probably autistic themselves and they've been reading up a lot and researching about autism and they've been dying for an opportunity to meet somebody, to actually understand more, and I remember the first time I met you, julian, and and did you let me know that that you were autistic and I was actually in the diagnostic pathway at that moment, and so it was wonderful to be able to talk to you and for you to share that with me, because I think it can feel quite a lonely journey sometimes and particularly if you feel that in some ways, that you are broken, that there is something the matter with you, and I think that that was sort of how I had come to sort of embark on that journey to diagnosis was that I felt that there was something the matter with me. And what I've now come to realise is that you know, I know you said about sort of functioning labels and people quite often will say, oh, you're quite high functioning In some situations, absolutely yes, but there are some situations where I would say I'm a very low functioning autistic person. And it's acknowledging that when I'm in the right environment, absolutely I can thrive, but when I'm not in the right environment I can't. That doesn't mean I'm broken, it means there's something wrong with the position that I found myself in. And I think there's that sort of there's less shame when you're able to acknowledge that, and one of the lovely things about being able to talk to you when you shared your journey with me was that I didn't feel quite so alone, and so I would agree that my instant reaction when you said to me, oh, I'm autistic, was oh, that's interesting, can you? Can you tell me some more about that?

Speaker 3:

Um, and whilst we're not all the same, it I know we had a conversation about eye contact on that day, um, and, and I was was telling you that that I find the eye contact thing really difficult, and so quite often I'll look at the top of somebody's ear or I'll count, so I've looked at them for five seconds. I can look away. Now, that's OK, that's not too rude. And we'd had a conversation about that and I thought, gosh, I'm not the only person, I'm not on my own, and I think that's really powerful.

Speaker 4:

I think it's so important to increase understanding and awareness so that people don't have those stereotypical views. You know, oadhd means you're always going to behave in this particular way, but instead we need to share real lived experiences, which will be different for different individuals, of course they will. So labels aren't always useful, are they but um?

Speaker 3:

I think they're a signpost, but I think they I don't know that we should use them much beyond that. I think, like you say, it's about capturing that, that sort of personal experience, isn't it?

Speaker 2:

I tend to agree. I don't think it's at all helpful to think of the autism spectrum, to be specific, as you know, a line where one end it says high functioning and one end it says low functioning. I don't it certainly isn't my experience and I don't know that as being the experience of any autistic person. I know it's much more like a pie chart where you know you have, like little it's like you know pie sizes of like that, covering different areas like social communication, sensory processing, high focused interests, and you know your reaction to noises and so on. You know and you'll, um, you know the way that you also I suppose another way you could put in there as well, which of course forms part of the assessment process is, um, you know repetitive behaviors and you know, if you think of it in those terms, everybody will be very different, they will have a different combination in all of those four areas, which means that no one person will be the same because, guess what, none of us are the same when you play Trivial Pursuit and you put the little triangles into the Trivial Pursuit piece and on some days I might have four of those little triangles in the Trivial Pursuit thing, but on other days it might be full, and I think it's that complexity, isn't it, of lots of different aspects of my neurodivergent self that will change depending on the environment that I'm in of my neurodivergent self that will change depending on the environment that I'm in.

Speaker 4:

Julian, you mentioned sensory processing and I think we really need to increase awareness of that. Of course we all experience the world differently through our senses. It seems obvious when you think about it, but are we aware enough of the impact that that has on our students, on colleagues in different environments? You know, people can be really uncomfortable or really distracted by something which I might not even have noticed. But we just need to be aware and understanding of those differences.

Speaker 3:

I would agree, and I think you know things such as you know some of our quiet study spaces, alternative rooms that might allow students to regulate. I think we're getting better, certainly as a setting acknowledging sensory and environmental challenges. This room, to me, is absolutely beautiful. The acoustics are lovely, it's a nice temperature, but I can hear Julian's machine over there making a very irritating noise that feels like it's sandpaper in the inside of my brain right now, but other people might not have noticed the noise in the same way that I do, and I think it's just that acknowledgement. It's not necessarily that you know we need to make massive changes to our environments, but it is about acknowledging where things might be a challenge and and and thinking about how we can sensibly overcome them and I think it's also about recognizing as well that, um, when it comes to sensory processing, um, autistic people in particular can either be overstimulated or understimulated.

Speaker 2:

So one autistic person might not be able to sit in this room because that noise behind me might be way too much for them and it might actually really cause them supply you know, to to be fit to feel as if they actually need to be the leave the environment because it's affecting them so strongly, whereas another neurodivergent person, another autistic person, for instance, might be sat in a classroom when the fire alarm is going off and you have to say to them you need to leave. This fire alarm is going off and they're so focused on what they're doing they barely even notice it, if at all. Because you know, if you can imagine a line on the horizon where most people sort of sit in terms of sensory sort of input, autistic people will either be considerably below that line or considerably above it considerably below that line or considerably above it.

Speaker 3:

I think that's one of the challenges for us as an institution is to think about the sensory and environmental challenges that our neurodivergent students might face, and I think certainly over at Walsall in few. I think they're challenges that we acknowledge and I think we've got some great ideas in place, you know, to avoid things like crowded spaces which might be overwhelming, bright lights and noise. So there are things that are absolutely on our radar.

Speaker 2:

We talked a little bit about the challenges that neurodivergent students face, and do we have any more to add to that conversation?

Speaker 3:

I think one of the things is rigid academia can be, I suppose, things like fixed deadlines. Sometimes we're quite lecture heavy, I guess, in terms of teaching and traditional assessments, but I think we're moving to more flexible teaching and more flexible assessment options which really support our students.

Speaker 4:

I think we also have to consider things like placements. So, julian, you mentioned employment. So Zoe and I are both in education. So students going out on placement in education settings, I think, can face real challenges where there might be a lack of understanding and where people they're going to work with at the placement think well, we can't have an autistic person that's not going to work rather than thinking about the strengths and the different perspectives that neurodivergent students can bring. So I think there are placements for lots of our courses in this university. So, yeah, that's something to consider. I think that consistency across placements.

Speaker 3:

We might have some placements where you know there is a lack of awareness among staff. We might have some that are very, very supportive. It's a little bit kind of feels a little bit out of our control, but one of the things that we do do is we know our placement settings really, really well and it's about that matching, isn't it, of students with with the right placements, to make sure that they've got that support across their placement to get away from talking about the challenges that people face.

Speaker 2:

What can universities do? It's my voice a bit there. What can universities do to address some of these challenges? To be, I guess, more specific here, how can universities create more inclusive learning environments?

Speaker 3:

well, one of the things that I mentioned before was about um, changing assessment methods and and sometimes that might be appropriate um, it's also about flexible teaching, which, you know, accommodating different learning styles. Um, I think for me, the clear communication is really, really important. So things like providing lecture slides in advance and breaking down tasks into manageable steps, making sure that the expectations are really, really clear of what we need from our students and, again, that doesn't just support neurodivergent students, that supports everybody. Neurodivergent students, that that supports everybody. And I think student voices has become more and more important when we think about how universities can create more inclusive environments and involving neurodivergent students in the decision making process and about policies and practices that that will affect them yes, I think we work really hard to know our students and to ask those questions about what helps, what works for you and what.

Speaker 4:

What changes would you like to see? And I think that's really important to be open to change, to adapting our teaching and our assessments. The student voice is so important in that and that all students get a chance to have their voice heard.

Speaker 2:

It's part of this enabling people to feel as though they actually belong here in this institution.

Speaker 2:

And I'm not going to name names, but I was in a wonderful conversation with somebody said that, um, people often don't understand that there's a huge difference between fitting in and and belonging and that, to some extent, actually, they're pretty much the opposite of each other in one respect because, if you think about particularly if you're an autistic person your entire life is being about fitting in. It's about consciously changing who you are to avoid people reacting against you because of who you actually are. The things that you actually have to do in order to sort of like create this illusion of being somebody who is not an autistic person, to avoid the kind of treatment that many autistic people experience, whereas belonging would be where you feel as though you don't actually have to do that anymore, you don't have to keep this mask on, you can be comfortable being your actual self and that people you know won't react against you for that.

Speaker 3:

And I think one of the things that's really important as a student here is that you find your people. You find a really strong support network of students, whether they be fellow neurodivergent students or not, whether they be fellow neurodivergent students or not, but where the social structure is something that suits you, where the style of communication suits you, but that you've got people that you can find comfort with. I guess, and that connection as a student I think is really really important.

Speaker 4:

that sort of sense of community. Julian, I really like that about the difference between fitting in and belonging, and I think belonging means different things to different people, doesn't it? For some, you know, being on a sports team with a big group of people will be the thing that really makes them feel that they belong for. For somebody else it might just be having a very small social group, but where you feel really secure. We have to recognize those differences and encourage them and support students to find out what makes them belong.

Speaker 2:

So, moving on, Do either of you have any advice that you would be able to share for new and divergent students navigating university life?

Speaker 3:

Talk to your staff. Talk to your lecturing staff. Let them know what support you need. We're more than willing to help, but sometimes it can be quite difficult. We've got information about our students that doesn't always necessarily translate into how students feel in a classroom. So let us know, talk to us. I think that communication can be really, really important and students should absolutely advocate for themselves. We've got university disability services. Don't hesitate to ask for help and support, because there's lots of support across the university. But your lecturing staff are probably the people that you come into contact most often with. So the more you can share, comfortably share, the better place we are able to help you.

Speaker 4:

I would just add to that don't be put off, don't think that the university is going to be very rigid and everything done the same way we do strive to be flexible, to meet different needs and to work out what works for different students.

Speaker 3:

And so, yeah, give it a go and keep, keep the communication open and prioritize your well-being and make sure that that you're thinking about those sensory breaks, opportunities for for personal interests. Whilst I absolutely believe that university education is, you know, a wonderful, wonderful opportunity, and you should absolutely grasp that, you do also need to think about your own well-being and making sure that you're, you know, taking breaks from study and finding time, you know, for downtime, that sort of balance between study and downtime, and making opportunities to explore your personal interests, so that you don't hit burnout.

Speaker 2:

And presumably it's also a place where you might be able to find your tribe, because we now have an ever-growing population of new divergent students. So university may be the place where you get to meet other people who see the world, experience the world kind of.

Speaker 2:

The place where you get to meet other people who see the world, experience the world kind of the way that you do now this is the bit I love in this, in these conversations, because this is the bit where we get to to to be slight, but we we get to think about what, how we can shape and build the future, a more inclusive future future.

Speaker 2:

Regular listeners, this podcast. Now this is the section that we usually call how do we make the boat go faster, and I had to have that explained to me quite a few times because I didn't obviously understand that at first. But my own terms I understand that as being what do we want the world of the future to look like? How can we create that world and how can we sure that it actually comes into being sooner rather than later? And with that foremost in mind, can I ask you both um, you know we talked earlier in this conversation about how so much the conversation around new diversity is determined by a deficit focused understanding, and we all agree that that needs to be, that we need to overcome that because it's not incredibly useful, um. So so how can we, how can we move beyond a deficit model of new diversity, um, and embrace one with that values, diverse thinking styles?

Speaker 4:

I think it's about really grasping that diverse perspectives are really important. We talk a lot at university about critical thinking and doesn't that mean seeing things from different perspectives? So I said earlier on, we need to get away from the idea that there is one correct way to do things, one correct way to learn. Actually, we really need to buy in to the idea that lots and lots of different ways of doing things, different ways of learning, different perspectives on solving problems. That's the way to go, that's stronger and that brings more people with you. So it's that shift in thinking I think is absolutely vital.

Speaker 3:

And I think that fits lovely with what Julian said earlier about that culture of belonging. We need to move away from this idea that students just need to fit in, to this idea that students can advocate for themselves, that we're flexible and that we really value neurodivergent contributions, there's a seat at the table and that sort of shared power and decision-making, I think, becomes really, really important.

Speaker 4:

I think in our department the ethos is really the affirmative model of disability, you know, valuing different lived experiences, strengths as well as weaknesses, and recognizing and encouraging people's individual interests, goals and dreams as well I think what julian was saying about a deficit model not being helpful, absolutely true.

Speaker 3:

But the I think what you've just said about that sort of the balance is, you know, between strengths and challenges is really important. Because if we move away from a deficit model and decide that all autistic people are amazing and positively contribute all of the time, I think we go too far. The other way, I think it is absolutely about capturing that complexity of neurodivergence and there will be times where neurodivergent people are in a situation that disables them and that that's a challenge. But we also need to balance that with with looking at the positives that neurodivergent people can bring and that lovely sense of a diverse community within our university, where where the power is shared and everybody's views are valued it kind of reminds me and I always get these, these weird ideas pop into my head the way you were explaining that just now, zoe.

Speaker 2:

There's, um, there's a very famous monty python sketch, actually called bicycle, with player man, in which everybody in this, in this like little sketch is, is dressed up as superman and it starts off by saying mr fw, superman. And the idea is that everybody has superpowers, they're all wearing a superman costume and they're all identical. And then somebody falls off a bicycle and breaks that. You breaks the puncture in the bike and, despite having a world where everybody has superpowers and you imagine being able to fly everywhere, nobody knows how to fix this bicycle. And one person literally just changes out of his Superman costume, puts on some dirty overalls and a flat cap and picks up his toolbox and rushes off to fix this bicycle. And they're saying look, they're stood there with amazement, all these people dressed up. Look, he's using a spanner, look, he's inflating the tyre.

Speaker 2:

And I think what that perfectly demonstrates for me is that you know that in a world in which neurodivergent people have different skill sets, different like um, you know different abilities and some of those abilities might seem almost superhuman.

Speaker 2:

We're also people and we have challenges and and embarrassed, just just like everybody else does, and to us what might seem incredible and amazing is just something that's very ordinary, something that we do, but we tend to sort of like find, well, I do anyway, you know, astonishing and amazing that the things that my friends can do that without even thinking about it, that I think I have to put a lot of time, energy and effort into doing that.

Speaker 2:

I mean even mundane things like like knowing what to do when you go to a party and you've never, never, met anybody there. I think that's astonishing. To be able to actually just walk into a space like that and to be able to go up to people and and start talking, that to me is a superpower, um, and I think that that sort of like understanding is would, is it would do an awful lot to sort of like for me at least anyway to like create a more inclusive world and certainly in a more inclusive environment. So before we finish, uh, and before going to a very long diatribe for our listeners I almost said viewers, then do any of you have any final words for our listeners?

Speaker 3:

I would say, be involved in Neurodiversity Week. Come and have a chat to us about all of the lovely things going on over at Warsaw campus.

Speaker 4:

It'd be really nice for people to be involved and to share their their stories with us and take the opportunity to learn more about learning differences, that it's not all about difficulties, but we do all learn and experience the world differently well, that's such a beautiful point to end on.

Speaker 2:

I can't perhaps possibly ask for anything anything more. Well, thank you both for being such amazing guests today and I, as I forewarned earlier, I just want to say before we finish this, this, this episode, a reminder to all listeners that, um, if you've enjoyed this episode, please give us a like or a review A review would be nice and also to follow us on. Wherever you get your podcasts from, just search for diiv VerseHub, whether that be Amazon, google, spotify and, of course, all the other podcast services that are available. And please look out for events when they become advertised for new diversity week. And reminder it's 17th of march, isn't it this year?

Speaker 2:

that's right and yeah, and hope to see you all there, and hope to see you all or see you, um. I hope that you all come and listen to our next episode. Thank you very much everybody. Thanks julian. Thank you, I hope that you will come and listen to our next episode. Thank you very much, everybody. Thanks Julian.

Speaker 4:

Thank you Bye.