WEBVTT 00:00:04.647 --> 00:00:08.772 Welcome to the Meet Hope podcast, where we have conversations about faith and hope. 00:00:08.772 --> 00:00:15.483 Hope is one church made of people living out their faith through two expressions in person and online. 00:00:15.483 --> 00:00:22.524 We believe a hybrid faith experience can lead to a growing influence in our community and our world for the sake of others. 00:00:24.381 --> 00:00:30.538 Welcome to Hope. 00:00:30.538 --> 00:00:35.814 Hey, everyone, welcome to another episode of the Meet Hope podcast, and today Rick and Jeff are together. 00:00:35.814 --> 00:00:37.740 Woo hoo Together again. 00:00:37.740 --> 00:00:40.810 Yes, Jeff, I enjoy doing these with you. 00:00:40.810 --> 00:00:42.869 I hope you feel the same Good. 00:00:43.351 --> 00:00:49.091 So today we're doing it's called Bunch of Cassidy and the Sundance Kid and other fantasies. 00:00:50.103 --> 00:00:53.444 Yeah, I want to be Robert Redford, if that's okay, oh so I'm Paul Newman. 00:00:53.524 --> 00:00:55.128 Yeah, you'll take it Okay deal. 00:00:55.579 --> 00:00:58.628 All right, that is a reference no one is going to get who listened to the podcast. 00:00:58.628 --> 00:01:10.373 So welcome to another episode of what we're calling Monday School, and that's where we're looking at some episodes designed to be more educational, answering some why or what questions of faith. 00:01:10.373 --> 00:01:19.147 And today, believe it or not, we're going to talk about what is a Methodist, what does it mean to be part of the Methodist Church? 00:01:19.147 --> 00:01:25.230 So just a quick, brief history and, jeff, you can add some thoughts here as well. 00:01:26.000 --> 00:01:27.846 The Methodist Church was founded by John Wesley. 00:01:27.846 --> 00:01:33.909 He was an Anglican priest in the 1700s we don't need to go too far into that but he was. 00:01:33.909 --> 00:01:40.590 He didn't set out to start a new church that wasn't his desire but he wanted to reform the church that he was part of. 00:01:40.590 --> 00:01:52.870 But his movement known as Methodists because they were methodical, they were disciplined and they had a method separated from the Church of England years later. 00:01:52.870 --> 00:01:57.331 And so, really, what we're going to talk about first is why in the world does that even matter? 00:01:57.331 --> 00:02:01.450 Jeff, you and I have always been part of the Methodist Church. 00:02:01.900 --> 00:02:04.769 Yes, we're probably the outliers at hope. 00:02:04.769 --> 00:02:10.252 There are not a lot of those of us who were raised within the Methodist Church. 00:02:10.419 --> 00:02:14.908 Yeah, I went to a small church in Bayville, new Jersey, called Trinity United Methodist Church. 00:02:14.908 --> 00:02:16.151 It's no longer open. 00:02:16.412 --> 00:02:16.572 Okay. 00:02:17.639 --> 00:02:19.806 The Methodist Church I grew up in, was baptized in it. 00:02:20.709 --> 00:02:21.270 You know it's funny. 00:02:21.270 --> 00:02:27.853 It occurred to me recently that every church I've ever belonged to is HUMC, Really. 00:02:27.853 --> 00:02:30.306 So I was raised at Hamilton United Methodist. 00:02:30.306 --> 00:02:31.349 That's interesting. 00:02:31.349 --> 00:02:37.792 I transferred my membership to Haddonfield Methodist before I was ordained and then started Hope United Methodist. 00:02:38.012 --> 00:02:41.890 Wow, so you got some good t-shirts that you can continue to wear HUMC t-shirts. 00:02:41.890 --> 00:02:42.312 Humc t-shirts. 00:02:42.312 --> 00:02:45.920 Yeah, that's funny, yeah and so. 00:02:45.920 --> 00:02:55.131 But along the way we both made choices to not only attend Methodist Churches but to continue to attend and even to work as Methodist pastors. 00:02:55.131 --> 00:03:07.125 So it's got some meaning for both of us, and part of that meaning is that we're part of something bigger than a local church in like, for instance, in Voorhees. 00:03:08.485 --> 00:03:33.264 Yeah, and I think you may have had a similar thing that in my young adult life I looked at like churches outside of the United Methodist thing and to see what the differences were and if there was something that I thought was better and ended up coming back to the United Methodist Church. 00:03:34.139 --> 00:04:12.457 I think for us as a local church, as Hope United Methodist Church and folks know that we don't emphasize the United Methodist part of Hope and that was an intentional decision because for some folks United Methodist brings some baggage perceived baggage, not even necessarily real, but things they perceive that it means, and so we didn't want that to be a hindrance to people exploring Hope Church. 00:04:12.457 --> 00:04:45.702 But the strength of one of the strengths and we'll talk about several one of the strengths of being part of the United Methodist Church is there's a level of accountability for us as a local church outside of the local church, so that in some churches, in independent churches and in some other churches, the accountability ends with the pastor or with a board and for us we have levels of accountability beyond that. 00:04:45.702 --> 00:04:53.824 So we're part of a conference and over the conference is a bishop and district superintendents. 00:04:53.824 --> 00:05:04.589 There's financial accountability, there's theological accountability and so if something's going a little haywire in a local church. 00:05:05.692 --> 00:05:12.439 The congregation can reach out to folks beyond those who are internal to the church. 00:05:13.002 --> 00:05:14.266 Yeah, and we're connected to. 00:05:14.266 --> 00:05:31.394 We have this connection system where we're part of what is hundreds of churches in New Jersey and we're part of something that's even global, and the impact that we get to have is greater than if we were just an independent church on our own. 00:05:31.720 --> 00:05:47.461 Yeah, there are things that we as a congregation support throughout New Jersey and then throughout the country and, as you said, around the globe, that we have a part of because we contribute to these things. 00:05:48.002 --> 00:05:52.519 Yeah, and you know, in rehearsal you mentioned that I went to Asbury College, which is now. 00:05:52.519 --> 00:05:54.084 Asbury University, by the way. 00:05:54.423 --> 00:05:55.026 Congratulations. 00:05:55.286 --> 00:05:59.471 Yeah, it means nothing, my diploma didn't change, but you know that's. 00:05:59.471 --> 00:06:02.827 Some people call that the method United Methodist Mecca. 00:06:02.827 --> 00:06:06.211 Right, that's the, that's the, the, the grassroots. 00:06:06.211 --> 00:06:15.201 It was founded by Francis Asbury, one of the, you know, the famous Methodist pastors on the east coast of of the United States at the back in the colonial days. 00:06:15.201 --> 00:06:24.598 Yeah, yeah, colonial 1700s, right, but when I was there, I remember I knew I was going to be a pastor and the decision was am I going to be a United Methodist pastor? 00:06:24.598 --> 00:06:24.658 Am? 00:06:24.678 --> 00:06:26.223 I going to work in a Methodist church. 00:06:26.223 --> 00:06:35.132 I remember that was that was that was a struggle, that was a, a conversation I had with myself, with others, just trying to decide is this for me and for? 00:06:35.132 --> 00:06:49.199 And for me it became that I relate best and experience God best through a Wesleyan theology, which which for me is, was what has always held me to be a part of the Methodist church. 00:06:49.199 --> 00:06:59.271 And it's because of really one word that you and I have talked about before a lot in messages, because it's it's who, it's part of, who we are, and that's central to our faith. 00:06:59.370 --> 00:07:01.944 Yeah, it's, it's the idea of grace, right? 00:07:01.944 --> 00:07:16.182 That grace is this that we start with a premise that no one is saved by doing good things, that no one is saved because of what we do, but we will because of what God does through it did through Jesus. 00:07:16.182 --> 00:07:20.752 No one's loved more than anyone else because of their behavior. 00:07:20.752 --> 00:07:25.112 God loves us because God chooses to love us. 00:07:25.293 --> 00:07:32.322 And what I loved about John Wesley was just this focus that it's all about grace. 00:07:32.322 --> 00:07:50.797 Every aspect of life is connected to God's grace and that idea of this free gift not earned, but a gift from God and every aspect of life for Wesley tied back to God's grace. 00:07:50.797 --> 00:07:52.086 Yes, yes. 00:07:52.187 --> 00:07:59.677 And that's what our first desire here at Hope is is to connect people to God and to connect them through this growing relationship with Jesus Christ. 00:07:59.677 --> 00:08:08.670 Our goal is not to show off Bible knowledge and if that's the case, then there's probably other places that people want to be, because that's not what we're trying to do. 00:08:08.670 --> 00:08:14.593 We're not trying to prove that one human being is better than another or one church is better than another. 00:08:14.593 --> 00:08:16.146 We've missed the point, then. 00:08:16.146 --> 00:08:33.668 The idea is that God loves us and then God saves us and God forgives us because of Jesus, but that idea of grace really can be broken down into four great or more than that, but we're going to talk about four graces, right, and the first one is you said it earlier, it's your favorite it is Pervenient grace. 00:08:33.989 --> 00:08:39.778 Yeah, and not a word that we hear in the common vernacular. 00:08:40.004 --> 00:09:13.860 Yeah, I don't talk about pervenient to all Anything right, but it's this idea of God going before us, and one of the ways I heard it described that always stuck with me is God wooing us to himself, that before we have any interest in God, before we are aware of our need for God, that God is at work around us, wooing us to himself, and that that pervenient grace is at work in every human being all the time. 00:09:13.860 --> 00:09:32.673 And so it's not that people who are far from God, god's far from them, god's pervenient grace is there, the spirit is working in people there, and so when we're talking about introducing people to Jesus, jesus is already at work now. 00:09:32.914 --> 00:09:41.101 So evangelism then is where do I see God at work in this person's life already, and how can I point them to that? 00:09:41.182 --> 00:09:47.157 Yeah, that God is pursuing us, that God is pursuing people who will attend hope someday. 00:09:47.157 --> 00:09:52.535 Yes, that God's working even more than we're working to do those same things right. 00:09:52.576 --> 00:09:52.957 Yeah, yeah. 00:09:52.957 --> 00:09:56.028 As much as we love to see people come to Christ, God wants that more. 00:09:56.249 --> 00:09:58.273 Yes, so that's pervenient grace. 00:09:58.273 --> 00:10:01.645 The second is saving grace, yeah. 00:10:02.788 --> 00:10:03.048 Yeah. 00:10:03.048 --> 00:10:25.129 So, ultimately, that God's grace rescues us, rescues us from a life of lostness, lost in this life, lost in our own sin, lost in our own confusion, our own darkness, and lost into eternity. 00:10:25.190 --> 00:10:25.390 Yeah. 00:10:25.811 --> 00:10:44.778 And so we are rescued from that that God finds us and Jesus' description of the Good Shepherd right, so that God, perveniently God, is out searching for the lost and then brings them back into the fold. 00:10:44.879 --> 00:10:47.024 Yeah, and saving us for this abundant life. 00:10:47.024 --> 00:10:47.846 That's here and now. 00:10:47.846 --> 00:10:48.688 Yes, right, yes. 00:10:48.688 --> 00:11:00.955 So our goal, then, as Methodists, is to invite others to that same grace that we've experienced and that we're, as we're growing ourselves to be more like Jesus, that we can invite others to this same kind of abundant life. 00:11:00.955 --> 00:11:02.057 And, yeah, that's again. 00:11:02.057 --> 00:11:02.865 That's. 00:11:03.066 --> 00:11:19.006 that's a beautiful thing, and there are other denominations that that believe that you are saved for from the beginning, that that there is no real choice, that you were pre-designed for salvation. 00:11:19.006 --> 00:11:30.585 And that's one of the hallmarks of the uniqueness of Wesleyan theology that we believe that we do get to make that choice and that everybody gets to make that choice. 00:11:30.585 --> 00:11:37.447 Yes, so God's perveniently working, but we still have to make the choice to believe, yeah, that we can choose. 00:11:37.788 --> 00:11:52.775 Yeah, and then there's, and then a third aspect of grace is this idea of redemptive grace, that once you've come into this relationship with Jesus, that God is going to fill us with this deeper kind of grace that's going to help us grow, help us mature. 00:11:52.775 --> 00:11:54.005 So we're yeah. 00:11:54.005 --> 00:11:55.349 So talk a little bit about redemption. 00:11:55.589 --> 00:12:11.854 You know, the thing that I love about God's redemptive grace and that idea of redemptive grace is that all of the mess of my life from the past, you know prior to coming to faith in him, that God transforms that. 00:12:11.854 --> 00:12:23.667 God makes the, the brokenness of my life, the, the darkness of my life, the junk of my life, transforms that and makes it something yeah, something beautiful. 00:12:23.667 --> 00:12:32.412 There was a great song years ago about taking the ashes of my life and making it something beautiful. 00:12:32.412 --> 00:12:34.721 What was the? 00:12:34.721 --> 00:12:38.248 Name of that group, gregor, no Gunger Gunger. 00:12:38.808 --> 00:12:40.250 Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. 00:12:40.250 --> 00:12:41.974 Yeah, we'll put that in the show notes, ashley. 00:12:41.974 --> 00:12:42.422 How about that? 00:12:42.422 --> 00:13:06.379 And then, what I love about, or another way for the way we talk about redemptive grace, is we would say we are in the process of conforming to the image Jesus Christ raised, that that Jesus is taking those things in our life that were, that are, that is being transformed into his likeness, right, which is why our worship plus two we talk about that is really the same thing. 00:13:06.379 --> 00:13:23.240 It's that when we're in small groups and we're connected to a body of Christ, where we're worshiping together, that's the way that God can begin to form us and transform us into his image and redeem those things in our life, even even redeeming our past and I've talked about stories in my past. 00:13:23.240 --> 00:13:33.793 You've talked about how God has used those things that may have been dark but has now light into that, and now it's turned into into something beautiful, right? 00:13:33.793 --> 00:13:35.740 Yeah, it's that I have ashes into beauty, yeah. 00:13:36.000 --> 00:13:49.727 You see, that's so how you know people who just come out of broken experiences and and seeing how God redeems it you know, that's. 00:13:49.727 --> 00:14:00.063 It's just a great image of redeeming, reshaping, reforming that for something good in your life and not only in your life. 00:14:00.144 --> 00:14:24.808 But then people take that, those experiences, and can share it with others who are in the midst of that and point out how God redeemed their broken places and so it becomes a way for them to connect with other folks who are going through similar yeah you know, I don't you know, I don't know if I ever shared this with you, but one of my and I've never shared in a podcast for sure. 00:14:24.808 --> 00:14:35.538 But I love when I'm leading a small group and I see a conversation taking place, and when I see someone else in the group and they're able to use their story to encourage someone else's story. 00:14:35.538 --> 00:14:42.732 Man, that's my, that's my favorite, one of my favorite things to see and experience and I'm just watching it it's that. 00:14:42.732 --> 00:14:48.125 It's that being in the front row and seeing, seeing the Spiritual growth happen in two people's lives. 00:14:48.125 --> 00:14:57.500 One person is is doing this for the sake of others and the other person is Experienced in the process of conforming, and man, it's such a, such a great thing to see, yes. 00:14:57.520 --> 00:15:03.823 So we thought of pervenium, we talked about saving, we've talked about redemptive, and then we want to talk a little bit about sanctifying grace. 00:15:03.823 --> 00:15:05.783 Sanctifying, that's that sounds. 00:15:05.783 --> 00:15:07.549 That's a big word, sanctification. 00:15:07.549 --> 00:15:11.249 Yeah, I grew up in the holiness movement. 00:15:11.811 --> 00:15:13.605 I again, I was part of that. 00:15:13.605 --> 00:15:18.062 You were, you had, you were, you were Made to be. 00:15:18.062 --> 00:15:28.631 The way I understood it, growing up is holy, was perfect, and I never thought I could be perfect, mm-hmm, and I've proven that I'm not perfect more than ever. 00:15:28.631 --> 00:15:30.226 But it means more than that. 00:15:30.226 --> 00:15:42.669 I mean, you know that it means to be set apart and theologically the idea is that before the fall we were made perfect, we were made in the image of God, but sin separated us, sin ruined us. 00:15:42.669 --> 00:15:57.427 And Now God's intent is to restore us and to set us apart again and to make us holy, and maybe not the word HOLY, but more the word W H O L Y. 00:15:57.427 --> 00:15:59.412 And that he's wants all of us. 00:15:59.412 --> 00:16:02.460 He wants to transform every part of who we are. 00:16:02.821 --> 00:16:08.147 Yeah, mentally, emotionally, relationally, spiritually, to be whole. 00:16:08.288 --> 00:16:12.822 Yeah, the every part of our lives, yeah yeah, it's a again it's. 00:16:13.043 --> 00:16:29.083 it's God's grace at work, and the way that I've described it over the years is to become the man or to become the woman that God dreamed for us to be that, that, that the thing, the areas were, sin, messed us up and separated us, and so forth. 00:16:29.083 --> 00:16:33.134 That God he redeems that and he transforms that. 00:16:33.134 --> 00:16:43.044 And what Wesley said about perfection I love, because the whole idea of perfection is kind of a turnoff almost. 00:16:43.125 --> 00:16:45.370 Yeah, nobody's perfect, I can't be perfect. 00:16:45.410 --> 00:16:54.884 Nobody should you know if you think you're perfect, you're not, and so forth, but Wesley's understanding of perfection was to be made perfect in love. 00:16:54.884 --> 00:17:02.929 Mm-hmm and this idea that love is the goal, and so we're, we're going on. 00:17:02.990 --> 00:17:20.265 Wesley talked about going on to perfection, that we are Matureing, growing in our capacity To love yeah, I remember in one of my classes at asbury my professor taught me how Wesley noticed in the Bible that salvation was about our wholeness in every aspect of life. 00:17:20.666 --> 00:17:27.490 And that and for me, that's when I was like, all right, I can strive towards that, I can allow God to work that in me. 00:17:27.490 --> 00:17:33.028 I can't be perfect, right, but I can strive towards wholeness and yeah, that's so. 00:17:33.028 --> 00:17:35.296 There's the reasons why we love being Methodist. 00:17:35.296 --> 00:17:40.724 And you know, knew, yeah, and all of that is really summarized in our vision. 00:17:40.724 --> 00:17:44.904 We talk about connecting people to God through a growing relationship with Jesus Christ. 00:17:44.904 --> 00:17:48.825 We talk about connecting people to each other and authentic Christian community. 00:17:48.825 --> 00:18:00.592 We talk about connecting the church to the do the world to be salt and light, and that, really, is what it means to be a Methodist and the other thing about holiness that Wesley talked about, social. 00:18:00.632 --> 00:18:09.474 Yeah right, so that our holiness isn't so, we're perfect and great and wonderful, but that it's for the sake of others. 00:18:09.474 --> 00:18:28.155 Yeah right, that as we're maturing in our faith, we are bringing that good news into the world in concrete ways by caring for people, by loving people that are rejected in some cases by society, who are lost, and so forth. 00:18:28.155 --> 00:18:38.944 That that part of our part of our Faith is, and and this is right from Jesus, right that he cared for and loved. 00:18:40.107 --> 00:18:41.332 The lost and again. 00:18:41.352 --> 00:18:43.057 That's the one by one challenge, right? 00:18:43.057 --> 00:18:43.519 Is that? 00:18:43.519 --> 00:18:51.035 Is that for the sake of others, that Jesus, that Jesus didn't come to get us into heaven, but for us to introduce heaven here on earth, right? 00:18:51.035 --> 00:18:51.537 That we? 00:18:51.537 --> 00:19:00.097 And we pray, that we talk about this, that you know Jesus said that we could pray thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. 00:19:00.097 --> 00:19:06.744 Then that's that's really what the idea of social holiness is is that we have this impact of bringing heaven here on earth. 00:19:06.744 --> 00:19:08.865 So well, jeff, this we're out of time. 00:19:08.865 --> 00:19:16.138 This has been a fun episode of Monday school here on the meet hope podcast and I hope you all enjoyed it as well. 00:19:16.138 --> 00:19:18.589 Anything else to add, or are we good? 00:19:18.630 --> 00:19:18.869 to go. 00:19:18.869 --> 00:19:19.613 No, I'm. 00:19:19.613 --> 00:19:23.865 That was fun and I feel like I should get an asbury t-shirt. 00:19:23.986 --> 00:19:32.365 Yeah, and you know, what we haven't mentioned is a Bodie's been with us the whole time Bodie, bodie the dog, and Bodie has been fighting with tape on the floor this whole time. 00:19:32.365 --> 00:19:38.218 I've been wrestling with him and duct tape, so if you hear any distractions, we can blame it all on. 00:19:38.218 --> 00:19:38.518 Bodie. 00:19:40.046 --> 00:19:43.094 Going on to perfection, but he's not there yet, hey everybody. 00:19:43.114 --> 00:19:44.457 Have a great day, take care. 00:19:50.346 --> 00:19:55.000 Thanks for being a part of the hope community as we continue our conversations about faith and hope. 00:19:55.000 --> 00:19:59.285 If you don't already, please join us for worship on Sundays or on demand. 00:19:59.285 --> 00:20:05.338 You can learn more at meet hope org or find us on socials at meet hope church.