Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn
This is what the world needs now: two free-thinking “seasoned” Black women speaking their truth and inspiring others to do the same. Shaped by 45 years of friendship that began at the prestigious Brooklyn Technical High School through the Ivy League, medical school, marriages, divorces, triumphs, parenting queer children, life-threatening illness and many many amazing adventures. Each week, besties Leslie Osei-Tutu and Angella Fraser will push against boundaries in love, culture, careers, faith, politics and out-dated assumptions about women of a certain age. Remember, you’re never too old to change your mind…or your hair! (but more on that later :-)All views are our own and do not reflect the views of our institution/company. Information provided is not intended to serve as medical advice.
Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn
Our Deep Dive on Hair Stuff
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After last week’s thoughtful discussion about hair loss Angella and Leslie couldn’t stop talking when the camera stopped rolling. The besties continue their chat about the cultural connections to our hair.
Visit Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn website for behind-the-scenes extras.
Hey Ange.
SPEAKER_02Hey Les. How are you? You know why I'm gonna be silly. You know, you know why.
SPEAKER_00So Well, welcome to another episode of Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn.
SPEAKER_02Brooklyn! Thank you for always giving me my moment, Leslie, to say that because I would I would choke if I wasn't able to let that out. And since I'm drinking tea right now, it would not be a pretty sight. So thank you for always giving me space to be silly and to acknowledge my my um silliness. Okay, I was gonna say expression of joy. Yes, about the wonderful um youth I had in Brooklyn. Welcome to another episode of Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn. Brooklyn! I had to do that again.
SPEAKER_00Okay, I'm gonna stop now. So if you're uh chiming in and looking at us, and if you listened to us and saw us last week, you might be thinking, hey, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Is this a rerun? Am I watching the same episode twice? Well, actually, you're not, but we've had such a riveting informative special conversation with dermatologist Dr. Achama Oseitutu last episode that Ange and I we really couldn't stop talking about it after the taping. So the first thing I said to Ange, I'm like, I already have on the lipstick. Should I change my shirt? And she said, well, if it's gonna be a continuation of last week's episode, you don't have to change your shirt. So here we are.
SPEAKER_02So here we are. And listen, I I don't I don't want to like always talk about like what's going on, like what's visual and so on, because you know, we started out in the audio only world, and some of us will continue, just enjoy um to listen to um podcasts and not see podcasts, and we get that. So I want to just make sure that we're mindful either to describe things or whatever if we're talking about um visual and not just um audio. So that's a good point. I know now that we're talking about the people, you're yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00But now that you're talking about descriptions, I've got a description for the people who are not tuning in on YouTube. Or not right for the just the listeners. Okay, what I have a description for them. Go. So let me describe myself. I am this gorgeous. Allow me to reintroduce myself. My name is not down gorgeous.
SPEAKER_03Oh my god.
SPEAKER_00Light-skinned black woman.
SPEAKER_02Light-skinned, she's so she red, she a red bone.
SPEAKER_00She a red bone. Although my birth certificate may say I'm 61, you'd never believe it. See, that's where she's taking it, she's taking it a little too far now. The skin on this woman. Who is your dermatologist? Anyway, you know, we all we sometimes start out with a lot of levity, so that's what it is. But to get back to why we're filming um this particular episode, it's because our last episode was really gave us some thoughts. It took us back to a lot of the cultural connections that we make around our hair. And we thought it worthy to continue the discussion that we naturally had, one between the three of us. Um, Achama was still with us, and then Angela and I continued after she um exited. And I think some of it might be um provocative to you all, also.
SPEAKER_02Provocative. What a good word. What a good word. Listen, I'm looking forward to saying that was a pregnant pause. I'm looking forward to saying that at some point.
SPEAKER_00I'm just waiting for the um include a pregnant pause. Okay.
SPEAKER_02You do that. Okay, so um, yeah, you would have um heard that episode before hearing this one. And um, if you haven't had an opportunity to listen, we're not sure what number it will be at this point, but um it's obviously in the earlier part of season two. And you know, Leslie and I are our elders, right? We like to, I don't know if she likes to consider herself that, but I'm saying that more and more. It's almost like I'm using it as an excuse to um share wisdom or to to be bossy or to um I understand. You know what I mean? It's um, but I've been I've been stepping into that way of seeing myself and almost um the responsibility I feel to say things and to spend time with um folks, especially younger folks, and and and um being um being in that role of of an elder. Um and um I think that it is worthwhile time spent as an elder to impart knowledge, anecdotes, whatever, um, jokes, whatever. Um, you know, we talked about legacy some some episodes ago um about legacy or um I forget the question. It was it was in the episode where we talked about um questions. Um it was just uh a whole episode about questions, and one of them had to do with um legacy and I ancestors, yeah. Oh right, are we being good ancestors? And I think um these little things that we do, these little decisions, where we spend our time, with whom we spend our time, um, how we take care of ourselves, those types of things are a part of the the legacy we leave. Um but this is me going on a tangent again, but I'm coming back around. Um so one of the things that really struck me about the conversation that we had with Achama is just I was swelling with um with the the pride, how proud I felt in uh hearing her, in knowing how dedicated she is to her profession, in knowing how dedicated she is to her her people, in knowing how dedicated she was as a student. Um and whenever I see younger people um being that way, it just fills me up. It gives me so much hope about the future, you know. Um there's so many things that um are troubling, like AI.
SPEAKER_00But not just that, there are so many things that we hear that make us concerned about the generation under us, yeah. Yeah, yeah, and a chama for me, I mean, obviously I've known her, you know, forever. But um I she tells me that things are gonna be all right.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, she tells me that things are gonna be alright.
SPEAKER_02That's the feeling. That's the feeling. And it's you know, it's it's she's well educated and she's very well spoken. And um, one of the things that Leslie and I were um were saying after she dropped off was that um how she spoke with such fluidity and and poise, and you know, or we don't speak like that. How could you know, and just kind of doing all the you know the the self-judgment around that. Right.
SPEAKER_00Um so those things said, do is there anything that I know that much about? And what did I say? You can I'm like, is it do I know anything that that much about anything? And and go ahead, what did you tell me?
SPEAKER_02I was like, if you did not have expertise in what you left the house to do every day, there would be a string of dead people.
SPEAKER_00He said I would leave a string of dead bodies behind me if I didn't have the expertise in some particular field that I have. Some particular field. I get it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. We have to kind of watch um the self-talk. Um, but you know, Achama, very well educated in those types of things. Um beyond that, though, I think those things are amazing, wonderful, all the things. Um, beyond that, she was just a bright light. And that doesn't come with education or it it comes with how she carries herself, what she knows to be true about herself. Um, she's a reflection of all the people who poured into her. Um, she's a reflection of all the people who she does not want to emulate. You know what I mean? We have to we have to thank those people too. Like I would never want to be like that. You know what I mean? And um to see that kind of all come together in this, in this person, this beautiful um young black woman. You Leslie, are you noticing that we refer to people as young at a much much older people as young these days? Do you notice that? That's scary. That's scary, because I think she's 47. Oh, that young person.
SPEAKER_00I'm just gonna call her a woman. How about that?
SPEAKER_02That's because you try to hide. I'm gonna hide.
SPEAKER_00For those who are not on camera seeing the video.
SPEAKER_02She is beautiful, by the way, Leslie.
SPEAKER_00She's yeah, but gorgeous. But but what I think I hear you saying is that her spirit shone through.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00You know, almost like any profession that she chose, that spirit would come with her.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And we joked about it, you know, while we were recording about humanism and humane and et cetera. But um, she's kind. She's kind, she's yeah, she's a kind person, right? And I think that's what attracts for certain, I'm sure that's what attracts her patients to her.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I um she's not cheap.
SPEAKER_00She's kind, but she's not cheap. And and patients come to her from all over. It's so funny. I have I have a colleague. We were in the hospital here in New Jersey having a discussion about. Um, she told me that she was experiencing some hair loss. And I said, Um, I know someone that I can tell you and refer you to. And when I told her about a chama, she said, Oh, I have an appointment to go see her, actually. What a coincidence. Now, what's interesting to me is that she didn't recognize that, or maybe, you know, she didn't say at the time that she's made an appointment to see Dr. Oseitutu when her colleague, her partner, is also Dr. Oseitutu. But, you know, anybody that knows us knows that we have about eight physicians in our family. Wow. You know, of all specialties, you know, Achama's parents are physicians.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00Um, I have another niece who's a physician, and it brothers-in-laws, you know what I mean. So there are quite a few Dr. Ose Tutus running around. So we all know each other.
SPEAKER_02Maybe she didn't want to say that, you know, oh, do you know because, or are you related because she didn't want to go into that? Oh, all black people are related or no.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Um, yeah. But let's let's just talk specifically about the issue of hair, if we might, for a few minutes. Um, I think that's what I why I wanted to.
SPEAKER_02I am the least bit interested in talking about hair. Why do you think I'm interested in talking about hair? What would give you any indication that hair would be something that I'm interested in?
SPEAKER_00Well, let me just remind you, darling, that you left a 20-plus-year tech career and said, You're gonna follow your heart. And you went to school and became a licensed natural hair consultant. You opened up a business. I did, a multi-layered business, one arm of which is a wig line, and the another arm of that business is you conduct a project called Hair Stories Project, where you interview people about the impact that hair has in their lives and across different spectra.
SPEAKER_02All true. Other than that, you have no interest in hair. I mean, I'll talk about it if you want. I'm down, but um, yeah. Um, yeah, it's um so the conversation that we had with Achama was about hair loss. Um, but you know, kind of wrapped into that, of course, um is um the stories about our hair, which includes how we damage our hair, right? And um there are a lot of practices that we have in our culture that's very damaging to our hair, right? Um braiding our hair too tight or using products that are not um not safe for our hair or our our scalp. Um and some of it is unknowing, right? Um, a lot of it I think is unknowing. Some things, I mean, you don't necessarily know that that some of the products that um we use, I won't name any names until I do my research, but they're plenty. Um beyond um relaxers, whether they say no lie or no lie, low lie, whatever it is. They're lying. They lying, they be lying. Um they're they're products that um are harmful, even color, and you know, I'm I color my hair still. There um, and so there's there's that, but then there are the practices around how tightly we pull our hair, what we call protective styling that really isn't. We just it just becomes this um catch-all for um anything that um that we do that does not involve combing our hair every day is considered protective, but those styles can be very, very damaging um to our hair's hair as well, including um wearing wigs if you wear them improperly, right? You have to, I think that's one of the things that Achama talked about is if you see that you are doing something and you notice that there's a change in your hair, um stop doing it and see if that thing caused it, and then make some make some change.
SPEAKER_00What whatever it is, make some type of adjustment is because I guess there's a right way and a wrong way to wear braided hairstyles, to wear natural hairstyles, etc. I know um one of the things that um that people of of color are wearing um more natural hairstyles or um without chemicals and things like that. And as a result, there's been a whole market of products advertised to people who want hair more natural, right? However, a lot of the ingredients in these products are still damaging to our natural hair, petroleum products, alcohol in the products, and things like that. Um it's so hard to navigate.
SPEAKER_02It is really hard to do.
SPEAKER_00You know, it's so hard to navigate. Like um, I know that because I have locks, um my hair is often very dry. You know, but I also know that a lot of the products that I use to make it undry, to lubricate my scalp or whatever, you know, is not necessarily um helping or it doesn't it doesn't combat the dryness. So there are different, you know, special things I need to do, for example, you know, it's one of the easiest styles, I believe, you know, ways of wearing my hair. Um, my hair is very healthy, yeah, because I'm not putting chemicals in it and pulling on it and things like that.
SPEAKER_02But um but then on the other hand, Les, the um even locks, if done improperly, can um cause hair loss, right?
SPEAKER_00Because it's the weight of it, it's the weight of it.
SPEAKER_02If you over if you over um um groom it and twist it. Yeah, if you over-twist it too tight, that creates breakage. So that locks in and of themselves, um, as with everything, you have to be mindful of the damage that you're causing. I've seen um lots of heads of locks, and there are um ball patches, or the locks have broken off, or you know what I mean, or the locks are very thin at the at the at the root, right? I mean, there's sometimes if you see that it's getting thin, then group two locks or three locks together. You don't have to have a lock hanging off a few strands of hair just waiting for for that to come off too. So I guess my point is that um, you know, just watch how your hair is being affected by your practices and make um and make adjustments. Um, I just remembered she said something about um because I think you had asked her about um um um baldness that is hereditary, right? Patterns of baldness that's hereditary. And she talked about other things that are hereditary. I'm gonna use quotes in that, right?
SPEAKER_00Because the products that we use are passed on. So it's like, yes, oh my god, so informative, and I really want to get more into that. So do you recall that conversation?
SPEAKER_02Well, she she she was making the point that there are products that we use that are passed on from one generation to to the next. Even when I was in beauty school, um, and this is um natural um uh to become licensed in natural hair care. So a lot of what we learned about were um Things that are naturally grown, you know, different oils, different um uh um natural um substances that we can use in our hair. But even that, there were a few of my um classmates, they'd live and die by what was that one? It was like this blue or green queen something, like petroleum-based thing. Yes, because that gives you, let's say, this the best silk press or or whatever it is, you know. It's it's the are you willing to trade off the look that you get now for the health of your hair later, right? Because um, what does it what do they say when the when the crows come to roost? Is that is that a term or am I making that? When the chickens come to roost? When the chickens come to roost, does that mean like at the end of the rest of it? I think well, that's all I need. I I think that means like you can, um my mother used to say, um oh my gosh, I just lost it just like that. But but the idea that things build up over time, right? You you can do it now, but at some point down the lane, yeah, it's gonna it's gonna catch up. And um, I guess that's what we're seeing now at um 60 and 61, you know.
SPEAKER_00Um us, each other, and other people our age. I'm gonna expand on what Achama said about um her uh hair, a certain pattern of hair loss is not necessarily genetics based through your DNA. But again, it's culturally based or environmentally based. For example, if we are used to putting, I'll say Vaseline in our hair, because that's what our parents used as the all-around, it was great for your skin, great for your face, took off makeup, and it's you can also put it in your hair, and then it's great on your feet, and you know what I mean. Um the heaviness is not necessarily good for our hair, but if that's what we grew up learning, then we may get the same hair syndromes or pathologies that our parents have had. Yes, another example um braided hairstyles, uh, cornroad styles with beads and things like that is a childhood staple of ours in our communities.
SPEAKER_01And they're bad too.
SPEAKER_00It may or may not be um caused too much traction on a child's fine hair.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But because it's a cultural thing and it's what we did, we wore as children, and our parents did also, it's another passed down perhaps cause of potential hair loss.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00As are um, I see a lot of um children with hair added or extensions in their hair now.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00Um, it's attractive as all hell and cute and all, but it may not be the healthiest way to maintain your child's hair and may cause some early um hair loss.
SPEAKER_02Right. And sometimes they're they're fairly simple things to do. Um if you if one is just kind of willing to say, oh, this this may be causing a problem because um friction, right? And if you use um an oil, let's say whenever I um when I used to um do um crochet braids in my hair, um, where the um synthetic hair rubs against your natural hair, it's a point of breakage. So put oil there, right? Put some um some uh Jamaican castor oil or some other lubricant because then that is going to reduce the the friction between those two things coming together. So that's something you can do every day. Just put some oil in that to reduce that. So there are these things, they're there are little things that you can do, and it's not just okay, stop doing that, but think about what could be happening there and do something, you know, change something about it that's gonna stop that thing from happening.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, well, another thing we do culturally or genetically to reduce friction on our hair is we sleep in satin caps.
SPEAKER_02Yep.
SPEAKER_00Or we use satin pillowcases, yeah. You know, because our hair can be fine, and when we sleep on in, you know, the the constant rubbing in one direction or whatever. I mean, we've all seen like babies. I remember Omari when he was a baby because he slept on his back all the time. He had that big ball patch in the back. Remember that? In the back of his back. So yes, you know, he rubbed the back of his hair off. But you know, it's it's it's it's that type of thing. So uh, you know, very often um we sleep in satin caps, or we'll use satin pillows for that reason, which is a good practice.
SPEAKER_02That's a good practice.
SPEAKER_00And and and uh the marketers now you see so many hats and caps with satin linings. You know, I have many uh knit winter caps that have satin linings, or my um OR scrub hats have satin linings.
SPEAKER_02Is that right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, unfortunately, I have so much hair, it just pulls the hat off. You know, I have to like pin the hat to my head sometimes, but um but yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02You know, something else that I think is at play is that um there there is a a misunderstanding about our hair being strong because it's curly. Right. Talk about that. Well um curly hair is actually um uh can be a lot more um fragile than straight hair, right? Because it it it wants to kind of be be coiled, right? So if you are pulling it straight or if it's not particularly healthy, every curve is an opportunity for breakage. Um, and I think that culturally we are very rough with our hair, right? We think that because it may be um uh difficult to comb through, then that means because that's because it's tough, or that's because it's it's it's resistant, and so you have to be much much more forceful with it. And so we might use a brush that is much more stiff to brush our hair instead of a brush that is soft because of the biggest. Yeah, and so this idea that you know, oh, we need to be we need to be rough, our hair needs to be tamed, it needs to be controlled, it needs to be um that, I think that is a part of our hair culture as well, right?
SPEAKER_00Um well, I think that as you can imagine, that also stems from the larger culture where that we live in, that we often try to assimilate to the larger culture or the um majority standards of beauty. So much like if you turn on televisions, um you see that straighter, more manageable hair, you know, they're in commercials and things like that. In order for your hair to be manageable or good hair or whatever, um, it should look a certain way and not necessarily what mine and yours looks like or grows out of our heads naturally. So it's that push and pull, that fight against what our natural curl patterns are.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00We want to look, we want it to be something different.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think that's that's changing a whole lot. I think you'd agree with that. That's changing a whole lot um in terms of um us changing our own beauty standards, and then um that forces the um the larger um culture to see us differently. I think a lot of that work is is underway. It's not how it's not all the way, but right, right.
SPEAKER_00I think it's it's at the beginning of the time. You mean a long way from when you got fired for your wearing braids. Yeah, you know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, because even at that point there there were people um who were um black people who maybe didn't think that that there was anything wrong with me getting fired for that, or that braids were not appropriate for me to um have. So I do think um the natural hair movement um has changed a lot of that. A lot of what you see in print, a lot of what you see on TV. Um, you know, there's a lot of um people are so afraid of being canceled that they're they're willing to have people who have natural hair in their commercials and and and things like that. So I do think that a lot of that um um has or is changing. Um I was speaking more to just, I don't know, I think in general we're so kind of rough on ourselves, we don't give ourselves a lot of grace. We um we push ourselves really hard, we push our hair really hard to to to behave in certain ways. And um, like when I speak to my clients, I I offer them two different types of brushes. One, use that to detangle, it's a softer brush, it's you know, it the the bristles bend very easily, and then once it's detangled, then you can use a of um a less pliable brush to to um style it, right? To get the curls to um clump or things like that. But you don't use that really stiff brush to detangle, because that's really you know, it's like and when you gave me those brushes with the wigs that I've purchased, I had no idea what to do with them.
SPEAKER_00I mean, I've never in my entire life used brushes like that. Because one, I really thought, and I might have mentioned it to you, that those brushes were designed for white hair. That's one thing. But two, I've always used a very stiff bore B-O-A-R uh brushes. That's what I mean. Because that's what you know would, you know, get rid of a lot of the kink in my hair.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Which uh and there there's nothing wrong with those, with using those brushes to achieve the well, but there was a lot of my hair in those brushes, yeah. But but but that's not a detangling brush. Right. You detangle and then you can use that to smooth or to style, but that's not what you use to detangle, no. No. What do I know? What did I know? But now you know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I want to mention what you were just saying about cultural changes and um views about our hair. Whether they're changing or not. Well, I agree that to some extent they are changing. However, what's also possible and more likely is that the biases against our hair is just going underground. So or not or not being uh spoken out loud for fear of being cultured, let's say. So if perhaps I walk in for a job interview or for a position versus someone else with different hair and not dreadlocks, perhaps, they may not say that Leslie didn't get the position because of her hair or her look, but it still might be it might be one of the reasons. It might be important. I mean, if that's the case, what uh talk a little bit about the law in North Carolina, the um the hair. Um well it's it's they're trying to it wouldn't have to be legislation, right, you know, about the Crown Act, such things, if there wasn't this still institutional bias. Yeah. Um I mean, why can't we just let, you know.
SPEAKER_02Why can't we just why can't we just? I just want to be free. Why can't we just? Well, I was speaking more to that is everything that you said is true. Punto. Exclamation point, exclamation point. What I was really speaking about, and and is how we see ourselves. Um, that it's what has changed a great deal, I think, is us feeling that we have to do that. I think there's a lot more um um pushback on those those standards. Um, you know, okay, I'll get another job, or or you know, or calling those people to task if if that has happened. So I think that there's less internal um, I need to look this way in order to get a job versus um, you're right, I think that there's still that from the outside in, but from the inside out, I think that it is changing a lot um in the positive direction. Um just, you know, um, I I would imagine, I haven't seen any data, but I would imagine that there are much fewer um children um who are getting relaxers, and you you know that used to be a thing that they would put relaxes in in their children's hair. You know what I mean? Now they're more um from what I have anecdotally um noticed, um there's more of a willingness to leave a child's hair in its natural curl pattern than to adjust it. You can get people to um you can take them to hair salons or things like that to get their hair done properly and things like that, which that wasn't so when when we were growing up. You just, you know, if you wanted uh to not have to deal with your child's hair, you would just throw a relaxer in there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um so I think I was speaking more to the um inside out than the outside in. Nami.
SPEAKER_00So and yes, this is something that I've meant to ask you for a long time. No, and now you're asking me, the answer is no. It's never no. So you just mentioned curl pattern. I've heard these terms 1B, 1A, such and such curl pattern, and people have used that term as though everybody knows what that means. Yeah. So is that a way to categorize a curl pattern?
SPEAKER_02It is a way to categorize a curl pattern. And before I even go to that and you don't have to get deep about it because you know I don't well, don't don't bring things to me if you don't want me to go deep. I'm not that, I'm not a surface kind of person.
SPEAKER_00You know that you know that about me.
SPEAKER_02Do not okay.
SPEAKER_00So go ahead. Maybe I can understand it.
SPEAKER_02So I will try not to go as deep, but here's the thing. Um I like the way that you said curl pattern. You didn't say texture, you didn't say thickness. These are things that people kind of group all together. The curl pattern is the as is the way that the hair curls. It has nothing to do with how thick the hair is because you could have really fine hair.
SPEAKER_00How many hairs are in a certain area? That's density, okay.
SPEAKER_02But it could also be the strand itself, right? How thick is the strand itself? For example, my hair is really um fine. Um uh my sister's hair is much thicker than my hair. She got it from my father's side of the family, I got it from my mother's side of the family. So that is completely different than the pattern of the curl. Whether the curl is like coiled or whether it's more of a zigzag or whether it's more of a wave, that's pattern. So you use that term properly. So those numbers are supposed to refer to the curl pattern. So how tightly or loosely coiled or curled your hair is, and some people completely reject it because I think it was intended for good and it may be still used with with with good intention, but just like everything, there's another side to that where it's used for bad. Adulteration. You know what I mean? It's like AI God. Every time I'm gonna mention AI, it's like AI. There's it could be for good, but it could be for evil. It's the same thing with these numbers, right? So it goes really from 4C, which is the um the most tightly coiled hair, right? And so if you think about when people talk about shrinkage, when they say shrink is shrinkage is real with the 4C, you might have a one-inch when it's completely left alone, a one-inch um uh long strand of hair. But when you pull it, because it's so tightly coiled, when you pull it, it may grow to six inches. I see.
SPEAKER_00So that's that's sounds like a fella, I know.
SPEAKER_01Oh my god.
SPEAKER_00I think you set me up for that. Okay, here comes the pregnant pause.
SPEAKER_02This is not a pregnant pause. This is me laughing and trying to catch my breath. Listen, you old married woman, don't even try it. Why are you fretting? Maybe a fellow I used to know. I don't know. You didn't even use no. Whatever you used to know is so far long gone, you done forgot. So don't even front, Leslie.
SPEAKER_00What?
SPEAKER_03I'm just able to need to make a funny. Oh my gosh. Okay. So for C. That's a 4C. So that's a coil. And and then conversely.
SPEAKER_02So it really just goes to so that's 4C, and then there's 4B and 4A and then 3C and so on. Um, but but the the I believe that the um the um positive intention for creating that system was to um really is was to understand the the the needs of the different types of of hair, right?
SPEAKER_00Um but wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. When when you just this is so layered, when you say the needs of different types of hair, are you talking about when you used to tell me how often one type needs moisture versus not, or this versus like what do you mean because porosity is another thing.
SPEAKER_02Oh, it's a whole other thing. Going down the rabbit hole. Going down the rabbit hole, but I'm gonna stop you. We're not I'm not gonna let you go down that whole list.
SPEAKER_00Okay, and we are running out of time a bit, so right?
SPEAKER_02Porosity is a whole thing about how how how much it um your hair wants to retain water or not. Um, but that's that's that's not what I was referring to. I was I'll just talk about the brushes again, right? You would have to be much more gentle with 4C hair than with 3A with 3A curl pattern, right? Because there's less coiling, so it'll brush through easier than 4C. So pulling the idea. That 4C is stronger, it's tougher, you can be rough with it. It's completely the wrong point of view to have. You know, if something is coily, you gotta be careful in how you try to make it coil uncoil. Um, so anyway, I think that that's the numbering system was for that. And there are products, wonderful products that are developed for 4C hair, right? Um yeah.
SPEAKER_00Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_02But on the other side, you know, as with everything else, 4C hair, oh, that's bad hair, because it's the one that, you know, is is is more tightly coiled. Or, oh no, God, 4C hair, you know, that type of thing is also in the in out there. And so some people completely reject that numbering system because it's used for evil. Um, but I understand the intention of it, and I think um people with 4C hair are, yeah, I got 4C hair, and it's gorgeous and it's magical, and it can do all these things, and you know.
SPEAKER_00And that's what I like that we seem to be embracing more embracing and complementing and beautifying the hair that we have naturally and the patterns that we have naturally rather than fighting and trying to change it.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00I remember I heard someone say uh that she spent years and years um fighting against her natural curl patterns or coil patterns. When I believe she cut off the um chemical processes, the relaxes from her hair or whatever. And she said, when I allowed my own hair to grow, I barely recognized. I didn't know that I had such pretty hair or such manageable hair, or my hair pattern was this, right? You know, right? So so often we um we adulterate our hair. Yeah, you know, and even then, and um I don't even know what the motive, the motivation can be anything. We want to either try to look better, it may be easier, we may be trying to please someone else, we may be trying to emulate the dominant culture or whatever the reason. But um, what I find is that certainly for me, wearing dreadlocks for over 30 years. Um one thing that I don't seem to need to do is fight my natural curl patterns and things like that, you know.
SPEAKER_02But you know, um Rasta, Rastafari, when they grow locks, they don't none of this grooming business. Yeah, yeah. No, I mean so it's it's kind of when they leave their hair alone, they leave their hair alone. Right. Um, but even um, and I I I just want to call this out because you you use these words and and um they they kind of got in my ear. You use words like um she found her hair to be really manageable, and um, there was another word, you did say beautiful, but these ideas about um hair ought to be or is better when it is manageable, um, comma um, you know, pretty when however we define pretty, pretty without doing anything to it. Um, you know, I I there all of that is layer two, right? Because you can have 4C hair and want to do a lot to it that is not chemical to make it look different, right? To make, you know, as they say, to make the curls pop, or things like that. They're all of these, they're all of these things, but the bottom line is um love you, you know, love on yourself, all every every part of you, the things that you want to keep, the things that you want to change, um, love you until it is, you know, just love you just the way that you are, and you can still change and be and and you know, um there's there may be things about yourself that you want to change, but you don't have to wait until then to love yourself.
SPEAKER_00That's oh, that's wonderful, and that's a great place where we're gonna stop. Yes. Oh, I like that. You like it? Yeah. Okay, okay. That's almost another podcast.
SPEAKER_02All right, I gotta plug in my laptop because I have so many chords coming out of it.
SPEAKER_00I couldn't tell that it before the parts still in the so let me just tell the audience if you see me in this outfit with this lipstick again, that means we just still couldn't stop talking. No, we won't torture you with that. But thank you for tuning in to another episode of Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn.
SPEAKER_03Brooklyn!
SPEAKER_00We'll see you next time.
