Sit down, get comfortable and listen to the multigenerational stories of one family’s tragedies and triumphs. Besties Angella and Leslie talk to storyteller and family archivist (and fellow Brooklyn Tech class of ‘80 alum) Pamela Skinner who has made it a mission to chronicle stories of her family from their southern roots as enslaved persons through their migrations north to New York City.
Pamela unveils compelling narratives about the importance of preserving a legacy for future generations. A family torn by tragedy, yet resolute in finding ways to thrive, will leave you with a range of emotions; from sadness and sympathy to laughter and triumph. What is particularly satisfying about this episode is the mix of glimpses of everyday life in beautiful Black communities and the larger than life barrier-breakers like her great grand aunt’s successful wrongful death lawsuit against a railroad company in 1913 (1913!!) and her grand aunt, artist & art educator, Mary Emmeline Godfrey, becoming the first African American full-time faculty member hired at Penn State in 1957.
These are the stories that need to be told, the stories that need to be heard, and the stories we can all learn from.
Pamela also shares her passion for curating discovered family art through photographs and one of a kind heirloom quilts.
Sisters Godfrey Collection
A Bond Through Art in honor of my Grandma Ruth & her Sister Mary
Visit Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn website for behind-the-scenes extras.
Sit down, get comfortable and listen to the multigenerational stories of one family’s tragedies and triumphs. Besties Angella and Leslie talk to storyteller and family archivist (and fellow Brooklyn Tech class of ‘80 alum) Pamela Skinner who has made it a mission to chronicle stories of her family from their southern roots as enslaved persons through their migrations north to New York City.
Pamela unveils compelling narratives about the importance of preserving a legacy for future generations. A family torn by tragedy, yet resolute in finding ways to thrive, will leave you with a range of emotions; from sadness and sympathy to laughter and triumph. What is particularly satisfying about this episode is the mix of glimpses of everyday life in beautiful Black communities and the larger than life barrier-breakers like her great grand aunt’s successful wrongful death lawsuit against a railroad company in 1913 (1913!!) and her grand aunt, artist & art educator, Mary Emmeline Godfrey, becoming the first African American full-time faculty member hired at Penn State in 1957.
These are the stories that need to be told, the stories that need to be heard, and the stories we can all learn from.
Pamela also shares her passion for curating discovered family art through photographs and one of a kind heirloom quilts.
Sisters Godfrey Collection
A Bond Through Art in honor of my Grandma Ruth & her Sister Mary
Visit Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn website for behind-the-scenes extras.
Hey Les, how are you? I'm doing pretty well. Good, You look amazing.
Speaker 2:Well, you always say that I think you're biased, but thank you A little bit, just a little bit. Well, welcome to another episode of Black Boomer. Besties from Brooklyn, brooklyn, and we have some extra special Brooklyn in the house because we have a special guest with us today.
Speaker 1:Yes, And Tech 80 is in the building.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:Tech 80 is in the building. Listen, there's a reason why people just don't understand the connection that our graduating class, i mean. First of all, we impress the heck out of each other And really and Pam is here because she's been impressing the heck out of me- Yeah, you've been talking about Pam for quite a while.
Speaker 2:I have I have Like way before season one even.
Speaker 1:Way before season one, way before, way before, and so I'll tell you a little bit about that, why we are so happy and honored to have Pam with us And so, but, pam, i know that you have reinvented yourself like a million times I have. So can you, can you share in whatever way you want? would like to introduce yourself to our audience, please go ahead.
Speaker 3:Okay, sure, So I'm a Brooklyn tech person by way of Queens, So I am unofficially born in Brooklyn, raised in Brooklyn, but because of the Brooklyn Tech connection, I am Brooklyn and happy to be with you all today and happy to represent the Tech class of 80. As you said, you know we're a strong and powerful group and I love having been a part of the tech family and even in the later part of my years I was doing work with them.
Speaker 2:Yes, you certainly was. We're definitely going to get into that. But, I don't know if you even said your entire name. People need to know who you are.
Speaker 1:Pamela Skinner Yay, And I was a center for.
Speaker 3:Queens. I still live in Queens. I've had many careers, but at the present time I am a social worker. I work with the aging, and that came about through things that happened in my own personal life, with my family becoming a caregiver, so that was actually the latest reinvention of my life. I've done so many other things from you know working in banking, legal services, you name it.
Speaker 2:I've kind of gone through a lot of different things. A fully well-rounded individual.
Speaker 3:Yes, many, many, many different things, And every experience brought something to my personal life. Everything was a learning experience and everything that I learned I applied in my own life.
Speaker 3:So you know a lot of times it's like, oh, you know, you work in banking and you're doing so many things for other people, like originating mortgages. I think about that a lot And it's like, well, i need to buy a house. You know, i need to invest my money And I was doing this in my 20s And you know so. By the time before I was in my 30s, i had started doing this and you know, i had applied in my own life.
Speaker 2:Man. That sounds so in keeping with our Black Boomer Bestie brand, because what we are really all about is living our best lives. That's one, but also looking at the entirety of your life and making it as best as you can be one, And then recreating and using your experiences to move from place to place or from thing to thing, whatever it is that really brings you joy and fulfillment.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:So that's kind of what I'm hearing as you're speaking.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I mean, my life has been interesting. I'm a single, no child. you know, woman, and I actually I honestly never really thought about it that much until recent years.
Speaker 3:You know, as a part of you know the whole losing my parents, you know, looking more at what my legacy will be, because I don't have children, so I don't, i don't and I don't have nieces or nephews. So what happens with my experience? I don't want it to just like go to ashes, you know, when I'm gone. So I've purposely done things to like chronicle my own life and to learn about the lives of my ancestors and you know, doing a few different things with that, so that there is a legacy and whoever decides to pick it up when I'm gone, well, it's here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that is a perfect segue. It is. And.
Speaker 2:I'm holding in because I know that this has been like a joy. Pam, you should hear it. There are times when Ange has called me up and said did you see what Pam posted? And the photos are so rich, and that's why we had to get you on. So, I'm going to let Ange take that away, because it is a great segue into one of the main reasons why you're here.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, and so when Pam says she's been involved in a lot, she's been involved in a lot And I know that what I have seen and this is primarily through social media, primarily through Facebook we have a pretty strong Brooklyn Tech community, especially Brooklyn Tech class of 80 community on Facebook, and so I've seen some of what Pam has been lending her amazing talents and passions to through that, one of which is a quick mention addressing the incredible difference in black and brown students in the big three schools in New York City Bronx High School of Science, diverson High School in Manhattan and Brooklyn Technical High School. When we were there, it was a fantastic representation of diversity and brilliance And to see that there's been so much, such an incredibly decrease in black and brown folks at the big three and Pam started a whole. You're going to have to tell us all that you started but really got attention to the changes. And Leslie just told me Pam and I know you know this that Stuyvesant admitted seven, seven black students this year.
Speaker 2:That's, that's tragic. 60, i believe, was the total admission.
Speaker 3:And seven of them were African American Yeah.
Speaker 1:So I do. I do, pam. If you could just say something quickly about that. This is not the topic, but it's such an important one that I'd love for you to just share some of it.
Speaker 3:So, on that Stuyvesant number, it's very interesting But I don't think it's changed since I first started doing the black and browns of the big three work, which was probably around 2010, 2011. So that number has kind of Harvard. I actually testified before the New York City Council about the, you know, the the issue with lack of diversity, and one of the things that I brought up was the Stuyvesant number And I brought a picture of my, of my brother's um homeroom class from our middle school And what I said was that in this middle school more people went to Stuyvesant than all of New York City went in that particular year.
Speaker 3:So more black students from that one homeroom class.
Speaker 2:What middle school did you go to?
Speaker 3:New York City. What was your middle school? Um Springfield Gardens intermediate school, is-59, queens. And so did you hear that.
Speaker 1:Let me just repeat that. Let me just repeat that, right.
Speaker 2:So powerful In that one in that one class.
Speaker 3:Yes, in that one class there was more, and so that meant that there were other homeroom classes that also sent black kids to Stuyvesant.
Speaker 1:But that was just in my brother's. Yes, and that was more than all.
Speaker 2:More than all of New York City. That's incredible And you have a Stuyvesant connection.
Speaker 1:Yes, my, my um, my sister, went to Stuyvesant and my um, youngest of my two brothers, and I, went to Tech. Um, that is just unbelievable, um. So, okay, we, we, we may come back to this, because I I do think that one of the regrets that I've had, of the few in my life, one of the regrets that I've had, regrets I've had few Wait a minute. That's my thing To everybody. You did your way.
Speaker 2:I had to. I had to get the music in before you did. I just wanted to have one thing over on you today.
Speaker 1:Okay, all right, okay, no worries, no-transcript not have participated more in the work that you started doing along these lines because it's so important. And you know we are very much into our reunions and go back to tech and have donations that are class, so we are involved in organizing that. And it always bothered me that I was not like glued to your hip as you did this work. I know where it's not. You know there's always an opportunity to do that, but I just wanted to say that out loud that that was another way that you impressed me with your level of commitment. Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:To things that matter to you. You've done work with Alzheimer's, just all this stuff, but here's why. Here's why I've invited you for this particular episode. There will be others. So Pam has been posting photographs of her family over the last few years, and when I say photographs, i mean going to the beach in the 60s. Yeah, Vacations Car rides Standing in front of cars, yeah.
Speaker 1:She and her little brother and he's in his little shorts and she and her little skirt, like just right under her mother and father's arms. Marriages And what has been and I hope that you have noticed through my comments how much they have really, really I've been so grateful because I feel like I know them. Yeah, yeah, i feel like I know them, and so we so infrequently get glimpses into this time of life, especially with people that I feel like I know. Now, right, right, and I you know, middle class family, upper middle class, maybe family Just living life, beautifully close knit family. I'm sorry, les. And so, yeah, go ahead, les. So what?
Speaker 2:prompted you could. But what prompted the invitation specifically, Pam, is that Ang talked about your family so vividly and explicitly that she also started. You know how Ang digs deep right. So she started saying I wonder what their lives were really like living as middle class families, black families, in New York City in the 60s. How, if we're watching them enjoy a day at the beach, how was their car ride home? Were they stopped? What were their neighbors like? And we actually started having conversations like that.
Speaker 2:Really We did Yeah, yeah, we did okay, because by bringing a visual representative, a representation of your family, to the public. you also started bringing a visual representation about all of our families and many of our families, and whereas I have so many similar pictures that you have stacks and stacks of them, it never occurred to me to post them and chronicle them in the way that you do Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and when I say thanks for sharing, i really mean thanks for sharing because You're welcome, you really you gave them to us and I. You know there's so much to be sad about And I know that there were specific times when I was feeling not so great. And seeing your mother and her siblings fiddling at the beach and, you know, seeing your dad in his uniform That you know it just lifted my spirit.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, so tell us a little bit or a lot Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like fill us in all the stuff I actually start with how my parents met Which is great.
Speaker 3:So my mom grew up in Queens and my dad grew up in Harlem or Washington Heights area, And what were?
Speaker 2:the names When they were Bill and.
Speaker 3:Carolyn. So one summer, and I think it was like after they had graduated from college, they decided to become camp counselors And they belong to a camp called Menacing And dad is a very famous organization, famous African American organization, We call it CBO, community based organization that actually my dad had belonged to from when he was a kid.
Speaker 3:So he grew up in Menacing. My mom had trained as a teacher So she didn't have to work in the summer and she was looking for a summer job. So she got her job as a camp counselor. And at Menacing was my mom's aunt who knew my dad from, you know, coming up through the organization And I guess it was one of those things like well, these two seem like they might get along And they were introduced by my mom's aunt.
Speaker 2:And you know that's how they met and got together Camp Menacing. we all know Camp Menacing.
Speaker 1:I don't know anything about Camp Menacing. You have to remember I'm an immigrant And even though I've been here for a very long time now, there are things that I may need to get filled in on. So can you tell us what Camp Menacing is? What is it? And sure?
Speaker 3:So Camp Menacing. It's still in existence, although it's morphed into some different things now, but originally it was a community based organization. Harlem that was organized by I think it was the New York City Mission Society. So they set up this organization to assist families in Harlem. You know people who had come up, you know from the south, and in Harlem it offered a lot of opportunity, primarily for kids. So you know there was the camp. There were things like what do you call it? Like drum corps and drum and bugle.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Drum and bugle corps. My dad belonged to something called the Order of the Feather. And it's funny because when I was caring for my dad, you know we're going through pictures and stuff and I really didn't know what Order of the Feather was. But then I find out that there were like guys that we went to school to tech with that were in order of the feather. What? Yeah, Wow. So, it's sort of like a fraternity in a way.
Speaker 1:You know.
Speaker 3:So there's Order of the Feather Through that, i think. Also, my grandmother was a Girl Scout leader, so there were like multiple, you know sub organizations within this umbrella that basically helped to knit together this community.
Speaker 1:And were these? were they segregated?
Speaker 3:Well, new York City wasn't segregated to speak, so you could actually, i think anybody could actually belong. Actually they was. I remember my dad used to say there was a guy named Wong. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, his brother.
Speaker 1:Wong.
Speaker 3:His family had this name. Wong was at camp Brother Wong. Okay, but it was seriously for Black families, just as who was in.
Speaker 1:Harlem at that time. Right Right, got it, got it. Okay, thank you for that, all right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so that's how the mesh. So they met and they got married in 1958. They moved into the building where my mom grew up in Corona, queens, and there's a whole story of my family and how they, both sides of my mom's side, wound up in Corona, having come from Virginia and South New Jersey, and that's a whole story for a whole day. But I always say that I never experienced like the go down South, you know saying like a lot of African-American kids did, because my whole family was from the North for the most part. My grandmother was born in New York. My grandfather was born in Salem, new Jersey. You know they lived in Corona, queens, like starting in like 1922.
Speaker 2:That's so interesting because I share a similar background of generations from New York and New Jersey. I had an experience of going down South every summer because my uncle, who was a serviceman, relocated and lived down in Virginia. So I grew up going to visit my cousins. But it's rare for a lot of African-Americans to have such generational history in the North. You know, i've traced my family on my mother's side many, many generations And I don't have any indication that they were slaves or enslaved people on my mother's side, but probably three or four or more generations from New York and New Jersey, which is just wonderful. You know it's, yeah, it's really uncommon.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's uncommon.
Speaker 3:Yep, So, um, so you know, we, we live there for about a year. Well, I have to think I came after my brother, So they were there for maybe about five years And then when I was born, there were like four people in a one bedroom apartment and they were like we got to go. So we moved across Queens to a place called Rochdale Village.
Speaker 2:I don't know if you guys have ever heard of that. Oh, we all know Rochdale Village.
Speaker 1:Again, what do we all know? I don't know. Listen, listen, i don't know.
Speaker 2:I'm almost intentionally excluding you, because you guys have the architecture.
Speaker 1:Yes, we do, yes, we do, yes, we do.
Speaker 2:So I had to pull Pam in to me. Somehow I know Rochdale.
Speaker 1:Village. I can't have nothing. I can't have nothing.
Speaker 2:So okay. So you grew up then in Rochdale Village.
Speaker 3:Um, partially, so we didn't stay there that long. So we we went there, i think in 1964 and we were going in 1968 because my dad wanted to buy a house. So, um, so, uh, rochdale was a wonderful community. Um, it's, it's in Jamaica, queens, um, kind of like bordering on Springfield Gardens. It's a huge. I think there are like 16 buildings in the whole complex. Uh, it's, it's co-op, group co-op, so owned properties. And um, it was built on a racetrack that was in the middle of a black community, but the people that moved in, most of them, were Jewish.
Speaker 3:And you know there were a few black people who black families who came, and so we had a very, very strong um foundation of middle class black families there.
Speaker 3:So, um, you know, so, my, my mom had a lot of her girlfriends and they were all raising their kids together And, um, you know, like we would go outside in the playing round. It was very idyllic. Yeah, yeah, um, my mom really didn't want to move, but my dad really wanted a house, so we moved to Laurelton, which was just like a couple of. Are you going to say anything about that, Leslie? No.
Speaker 2:I was just going to say another um heavily African-American community Still um middle class blacks homeowners Right Um pretty common Yep.
Speaker 3:Yep, okay, yeah. So I moved to Laurelton, which was the first of my childhood. So we moved there in 68. So I was five, and my parents stayed there until they retired and moved to Florida, which was like around 2000. So so that was the family home base for many many years.
Speaker 2:So you commuted to tech from Laurelton.
Speaker 3:Yes, ma'am.
Speaker 2:Wow, it was commitment.
Speaker 1:It was worth it though wasn't it Wasn't it worth it There were days.
Speaker 2:Let me tell you.
Speaker 1:How long was the commute? It was bus and then train or 20 minutes.
Speaker 3:Wow, it was a bus and two trains.
Speaker 1:Oh my goodness, yeah, that's commitment right there. Yeah, that's commitment.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was. It was rough And you know I want I I think about it now And let me just rolling back to my work with in the present day, with tech. It's funny because I would speak to parents about what do you think about your child traveling? Cause, cause I would do a lot about reaching, like, my old neighborhood. So well, i don't feel comfortable with having my child travel And I thought I was a 13 year old little small girl. Yes, my parents didn't think about me traveling And I I wondered about that, like why didn't?
Speaker 3:they Yeah, It's just I think it was a lot worse then in terms of, you know, safety and and whatnot.
Speaker 2:Than it is today. Yeah, i remember when I started tech I was 14, i suppose Mom wouldn't let me take the train to tech. I had to take two buses. We live in Brooklyn But when most it would have been just one train and most people were taking the trains And I remember I just wasn't allowed to get on the train. She, I had to take the bus. You know cause she was that concerned. I think I didn't take the train, probably until my sophomore junior year.
Speaker 3:Wow.
Speaker 1:Well, i lived in Bed-Stuy, So I I could either take a train or a bus, so depending on, i guess, the weather or what my brother wanted to do, we would either take the bus, basically straight straight down.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Or we would take the Gigi, which I don't think exists anymore.
Speaker 3:It's the Gigi now.
Speaker 2:It's the Gigi. It still exists Cause it was a local train. It was a local train, now it's the old Gigi.
Speaker 3:And I took the Gigi, but then I had to get off the Gigi and like get on the E and go all the way out to. Jamaica and then get on a bus that went all the way out to Laurelton.
Speaker 1:Wow, really a hard community. We're glad that your parents said yes, yes. So I I'm afraid that Leslie is going to tell me that we're going to run out of time before you tell a particular story that I came to hear about, and so I'm going to take us there now and so that we make sure, because Leslie likes to cut me off, okay, so so you told me about the fact that both on both sides of the family I think your great grandfather, yeah, it was they died tragically.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 1:And there was some research that you did around their death. So could you tell us like and don't leave anything out I want to hear all of it. I don't want to hear the summary, i don't. I just want to hear what you have found, because I know that you love to do your research. So, yeah, tell us what happened.
Speaker 3:Okay, so after they retired, my mom and dad started doing a lot of ancestral research. So, I have to credit them for really starting on starting on this journey, and they were doing it at a time when there was no internet, so they were physically like going to the library and reading microfilm, you know. And physically like going to towns down south and, you know, trying to find records and whatnot So like big props to to a great dad for starting this journey.
Speaker 3:They each were, you know, looking into their own particular family. So my dad's family was primarily from Norfolk, Virginia, And his grandmother, I think, was the first person to leave the South and come to New York. Now where the tragedy comes in is she. She was married and had four very young children, And her husband worked at the docks on Norfolk is a seafaring town, so he worked on the docks on a barge And I didn't.
Speaker 3:You know, he died in 1913. So I didn't know really much. My dad never knew his grandfather. You know, my, my grandfather really never knew his own father because he died I guess when my grandfather was maybe about four or five. So Big Mama so we called her was in Norfolk being a mom And one day her husband drowned And that's all that, like we knew in the family. And you know the way that family stories go, like people, i think, will try to like dredge up some of the craziest stuff. So what, the story in the family was that oh, he was drunk, you know, and he fell into the water and drowned. But I, i came across some fascinating research that was in a law journal And it had the whole case of how Big Mama had sued the Norfolk Southern Railroad for her husband's wrongful death. What year, please? What year was this? I think it was 1913, somewhere around there.
Speaker 1:Okay, So had he been drunk and fell off, probably would not have had grounds for a law.
Speaker 3:And there's a Wow, so wow story of his great character, how he was a wonderful worker, you know, how he had his wife and these four babies.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, this is unheard of in 1913 for your grandmother to have the wherewithal and the ability and the intelligence And nobody in the family.
Speaker 3:Nobody in the family knew that that is exactly what. So thank God, my dad was still alive when I discovered this And I showed him. I'm like, see, we don't always pass down stories properly. And I you know, I don't know how this got so twisted. It's such a negative story, but it was really powerful story.
Speaker 1:Yes And I love.
Speaker 3:you know his dedication to you, know being the head of his family, and then you know his wife being able to carry on.
Speaker 2:And her tenacity. Like you know, so many people become so much smaller And then and just really start just taking care of the four children Couldn't have been easy in the South, as a single parent in 1913.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Black woman black woman Black woman, yes, yes.
Speaker 3:So she left and I don't know, maybe you know there was. there was a whole, i'm sure there was a whole lot of drama, you know, surrounding Sure. What had happened And she was just like she left and she came up north and went to Harlem And then the rest of the family came slowly After that. Like my, my dad actually came when he was about to, so so his nuclear family didn't come until like 1933, 34. So so, big mama, had been in New York for a while.
Speaker 1:Big mama props So big.
Speaker 2:No, that's really impressive, Pam you and I have a similarity in our family in that my grandmother's, my maternal grandmother's father, so my great-grandmother's first husband, was a longshoreman in New York. He was working actually on the dock in New York, right along the Westside Highway, and he was killed in an accident on a ship right there on the Westside Highway.
Speaker 1:Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 2:And I have no history of any litigation or lawsuits or anything like that. All we know is that you know, les, your grandfather died in an accident on the ship right here.
Speaker 3:Yeah, wow, wow.
Speaker 1:Well, you haven't done research, like Pam though?
Speaker 3:No, i haven't, i don't even remember how it was like a needle in a haystack sign.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, you know, i don't know how.
Speaker 3:Incredible. I didn't even I didn't know to look for it.
Speaker 1:You're right. Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It was a stumble upon, Yeah you were supposed to find it.
Speaker 2:I was supposed to find it so that the story stays intact and the correct story gets passed on. Yes, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3:So all of my many cousins, because there were so many children born out of those four. Yes, and I don't know how many cousins I have now. It's like my buglet, so I share the story with all of them, like past this down.
Speaker 1:Pass this down to kids like getting back to. You're a storyteller, i don't have kids to pass it to, but you guys have kids to pass this to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, let them know Yes. And then Angie mentioned that there was another incident.
Speaker 3:Yes, so my great grandfather on my mother's side. He had come from Bedford, Virginia, which is it's a rural mountain town, like near the border of Virginia and West Virginia, And so his family had been farmers. They lived like off in the mountains. They had been free people of color for like generations upon generations.
Speaker 3:So I guess you know, they stayed in the mountains like just don't bother us, you know we're not in our business, you know, just live this alone. And so he was the first person to leave Suck Mountain and he went to what is now Virginia State University and got a degree, and he studied engineering. He's got his degree. He met my great grandmother there who was from another rural part of Virginia called.
Speaker 1:Charlotte.
Speaker 3:Courthouse where her parents had been enslaved people and they had off. They had its back off farm, So they met This is such a rich history I'm like envisioning it.
Speaker 3:And then I guess by by 1900, he had moved to New York. So, like I, in the census you see Henry is living in Manhattan, wow. And he had come with his brother Samuel and they started a business like taking care of of boilers and whatnot in in old homes in Manhattan. So that's how he used his engineering. He brought my great grandmother up, i think like around, maybe like 1902. And they wound up having eight kids, wow, wow, so he could afford it.
Speaker 3:My grandmother was was. My grandmother was one of the youngest ones, and you know, so it's banned, like I think the first one was born in like 1903. And the last one was born in like 1922.
Speaker 1:Yeah Yeah, large span A lot.
Speaker 3:And then I had a grandmother poor, poor mama.
Speaker 2:That's like my great great grandmother. My great grandmother, cornelia, had 13, 12 children. My grandfather was probably the fifth of 12. And one of them is remaining, my aunt, maddie May, who just turned 100. We celebrated her 100th birthday last month.
Speaker 1:Yeah, of 12.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 3:Yeah, So the sad part is that I guess one day at work Henry was cleaning windows and he fell. So Henry died and I don't know what happened with his brother in terms of his continuing the business. All I know is that mama left their home that they had in Manhattan, And this is how she wound up in Corona, Queens.
Speaker 1:Okay, so that was. that was all the children.
Speaker 3:Yeah, with all the children And she. She had a nervous breakdown. There's a story of her going to the cemetery every day to visit her husband's grave site and how night fell and she was lost in the cemetery And so she had a breakdown And as a result, the children were dispersed, you know from the younger children were dispersed.
Speaker 3:So my grandmother, ruth, and her sister, mary wound up going to Virginia, to Charlotte Courthouse, to live with their great grandparents, the ones who, as I said, had been enslaved and had the tobacco farm. So This is where My mom and I think that they came together with their artist, their artistic skills. So you might not know, but what I have done is I, i have all their artwork. Mary was actually. She became the first African-American tenured Professor at Penn State and she was in the school of art and architecture. She was an art educator and my grandmother, after a long career at Macy's, took up art on her own and she became like a needle worker.
Speaker 2:I was gonna say, cuz I've seen some of the work that you've posted, yeah.
Speaker 3:Oh my god, see some of it behind me.
Speaker 1:So this well, if you could bring some, that would be really awesome. So, so wait. So these are the children of The eight. These are. They were two of the eight.
Speaker 2:They were two of the eight lost their father.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and their mother.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they lost their mother was not essentially right for them Yeah. Became the first tenured professor, african-american tenured.
Speaker 3:Wow, yeah, and so I'm trying to build Legacy of their work.
Speaker 2:I got chills, god-free.
Speaker 3:And yeah, I'm making some headway though I think it's gonna be a while, but Luckily mama got herself together At a certain point and she got a certificate to become a New York City public school teacher At some point. Oh my gosh so this is a stock you come from.
Speaker 1:This is the stock you come from.
Speaker 2:I see it now.
Speaker 1:I understand, yeah, wow.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like a lot of you imagine like powerful women.
Speaker 2:I'm just thinking of the adversity that existed just in that age. I'm thinking about the education and intelligence that's required to do some of the things right and, oh My gosh, it's just incredible. It's just so when you're doing this research and you're discovering all this, are you like?
Speaker 3:Like it's amazing to me because I think about Just being a mom here. Like in this day and age and you know I bow down to mom and Everything that they do.
Speaker 3:And I think you know my life is very uncomplicated because I don't have the responsibility of children and And it is a blessing for people to have children and and when they love them, and when the children thrive and everything, it's the beautiful thing. I Can't imagine having gone through what those two women went through at that point in time And, and then you know, coming through it, you know, being able to come through that, and a part of it is That I think that Eventually, like the family became very, very close, that maybe tragedy might actually brought them.
Speaker 2:Sure that often happens.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and so you know, like when I said that I, when I was born, i lived in the same building where my mom had grown up, but then in the greater community is where, like, mama had lived and my grandmother's, brothers and sisters all live, some of them lived in the same building- So you all had like a neighborhood legacy Family, you know my grandfather's. My grandfather came up from Salem, new Jersey, with his brothers and they all moved to Corona to be postal workers.
Speaker 2:So there were all this family around and and all these eyes on you and All these people praying for your success also an emulating success and making sure that you were okay and You know when times were difficult for your parents or for other cousins or what have you, Yeah?
Speaker 3:wow. Fortunately, i met a lot of them, you know growing up and you know knew them, and They had fascinating lives, like each and every one of them.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's, that's just, and I I know you, les, you've you've shown me some pictures of, but I feel like I know Pam's family, but you know just, and And and we touched on some of this about kind of the, the larger context in which these, these women and and and men lived, but Really, the gravity of that, the, the First of all, you have to decide that this is something that you think you can do, that you think you can succeed in, right, you know what I mean. that has to be a and and when you Know so many things that are outside of your control, yes, Because it's not just your decision.
Speaker 2:No, it's the world at large that you have to navigate through.
Speaker 1:You're the lowest on the totem pole.
Speaker 3:Yes, you can't just think if when you travel from South to North you can't sit anywhere you want, on a That's the story that my mom told me, and I think that was really my first introduction to what segregation was So she and her sisters used to go South to Charlotte Courthouse, to the farm, and They're there.
Speaker 3:It would have been their great, great, i think. They would have been their great great grandmother, i think, who was the enslaved person who lived to be like a 100 and something. So so they would go and visit her. And my mom told me we had to get off the train in Washington and switch to the colored car And, yeah, we had to speak with deference, you know to to the white conductor And then in the town So that they would not be mistreated. They had to say we belong to on Emma Lyne, who you know, because I guess she was so old and everybody in the town knew her. They, they had a level of respect for her, even though she was a formerly enslaved person.
Speaker 3:But, if you weren't on Emma Lyne's children, I don't know what happened.
Speaker 2:Pam, that reminds me of Emmett Till. Yeah, How he, as a young boy from Chicago, not used to segregation and things the ways of the South. You know we talk about how we have to give our children the talk, And we all have. But could you imagine that level of rehearsal and when you know I'm thinking about the level of fear. But I'm just saying that, like you know that they're live, they're very live, depend on obedience as a child. As a child, you know poor.
Speaker 1:No cell phone to check in and say, oh, I made it. You know what I mean I made it.
Speaker 2:You know, poor Emmett Till, you know, went down there just to spend time with his family And his mother made me never saw him again, you know.
Speaker 1:And the idea that this, all this stuff is so far in the past. It's not So much, so much expectation that we should let things go. And here you are telling a story of your mother.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, this is not ancient or very remote history. And why then? And obviously we know the answers to this, but why do you suppose people of other races and cultures wouldn't be enriched and encouraged by stories like this? You know it might be a naive and just asking that question.
Speaker 3:I think they actually would be. I think that they just don't understand. I think that there is a perception that all people are a particular way, and so what I always say is that there's a lot of nuance to everything And, you know, we are not a monolith.
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 3:There are all kinds of stories, you know, to our lives and our history, And I think if we tell our stories people will be interested. But I think there there hasn't really been a platform for one thing.
Speaker 2:Well, they're trying to take away platforms and they hide stories of stories such as this of resilience and tenacity and success and business owners who, graduates of universities who went north and made a way out of nothing and started businesses, and things like that. Those are human stories. They're not necessarily racial stories, but then when you? add the racial component to it, it's almost like a wonderful adventure. I could see it as a movie. I could see it as a movie.
Speaker 1:I think it's the racial component that causes it to be hidden or erased. You know just, you just sent me a segment from the CBS News about the black architect who designed the Beverly Hills Hotel and all these iconic buildings in California Williams, hundreds and hundreds of them. Yes, and we don't know any as a matter of fact. His signature the Beverly Hills Hotel.
Speaker 2:It's actually that's his personal handwriting, his handwriting.
Speaker 1:And yet we know nothing about this man. You know he's not talked about That's erasure, that is, he exists. It's intentional. His buildings are there. Someone had to design them, it's intentional.
Speaker 3:I see that that due to segregation and redlining or something that black people could not even live in the buildings that he could not even design the buildings His.
Speaker 2:He couldn't live in his own building.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Yeah, that he designed, yeah, and of course he couldn't stay in the hotel that he designed. Right, so it's, it's a it's a yeah, this is deliberate, deliberate, yeah, deliberate stuff, but we all lose.
Speaker 3:My dad told me the story of of redlining and how he was denied a mortgage when he wanted to buy his house in Queens. And he, i didn't hear this story until I was like in my fifties. So again, i mean I I don't know if it's like pride, i don't, you know, i don't know why he would have like kept it silent for so many years. You know, maybe he was just angry. It's painful.
Speaker 2:It's painful, these things, you don't forget.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. So he said that he went to the bank and you know. he said you know, i would like to see a house in such a neighborhood. and, like somebody, pulled down a map and said you see this redline, literally literally.
Speaker 1:You can only get a house within here.
Speaker 3:And, oh my god, you money to get a house anywhere outside of this line. And and my dad said that he like lost it and said I'm a veteran. You know, i work for the city of New York. My mom, my wife, is a teacher in the city of New York. What do you mean? You know, and this was 1968. So it's not that long ago, it's crazy.
Speaker 1:Don't get me started. I know Don't get me started.
Speaker 2:Or if you get started, you'll get started on another episode. I'm glad he told me I you know, i never would have known. Oh, yeah, Yeah, right, right. So this is my personal experience.
Speaker 3:I want people. even though these stories are painful and difficult, I would hope that parents would tell their children, Because otherwise, like you're saying, every we're being silenced. So the only way to keep the stories going is to keep telling the stories within the family. Right, right.
Speaker 2:And these stories of hope and triumph. I mean, obviously there's sadness, but I'm so encouraged Yeah, i mean, i don't have to read a book to think about a person that I don't have any connection to And the tales that they've and the things that they've overcome. This is someone who I've known for 40, 40, 50 years, her family and this, and you have your family stories, and we have our family stories. I'll tell you what this makes me think, though, as and I'm going to put an umbrella over the whole thing I know we have busy lives, and this is I'm one of the main chronic, me and my nephew. We chronicle our family history, and I might get some tips from you, pam.
Speaker 2:Going forward, i've traced some of our family back as early as the early 1800s, but I know I've not, i've only scratched the surface, but there's so many. We just have so little time to do things and we're busy in our lives. But we had an episode in one of our podcasts and in one of those questions we asked are we being good ancestors And what type of legacy we might be leaving for those generations after us? And, pam, this is exactly what that question brings up for me. Just chronicling the history is important, so I'm going to vow an endeavor to make more time to do that and speak to the elders that are remaining.
Speaker 2:As I said, I have a hundred year old aunt, my mom is a wealth of information. My uncle, seven years her senior, knows a lot of this as well, so that's what has done it for me. So I thank you for that. I thank you for that. Thank you, you're welcome.
Speaker 3:I'm glad I love sharing the story And I'll say I don't consider myself a writer, but I like to tell the story verbally. A storyteller.
Speaker 2:A story teller, a story teller tradition. It's what really animates me Yeah.
Speaker 3:And one of you said it's like you see a movie, like sometimes I literally see in my mind what might have actually happened. Wow, so Yeah, i had a very imaginative vision, very imaginative.
Speaker 1:Yeah, i. However, you have been doing it. I just want to encourage you to keep going, because it does. You don't always know how your decisions to share. Whatever it is that you share for you, it's this incredible family, how it impacts other people. You know you have the benefit of hearing it for me, but I'm sure there are many people who you don't hear from. Yeah, you know, who linger at the photographs.
Speaker 2:And look at those photographs and what they remind me of And you mentioned, many say, yeah, almost can hear their laughter.
Speaker 1:Yes, it's just, it's a beautiful thing, and remember that the stories of black people, of black families, is so rarely told, and so you know it's almost like I've adopted them through your photographs. So I just really want to tell you that it's really mattered to me.
Speaker 3:Thank, you And I just want to encourage you to keep going. I'm so glad that it's touched you, Yeah for sure, like you said, I never know. I've actually met relatives from posting.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 3:Wait, you know, are you so excited? Oh, my goodness, wow Like yeah, oh wow.
Speaker 1:That's great, oh my goodness, that's beautiful, that's beautiful.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for sharing. We're so appreciative. Thank you for inviting me.
Speaker 1:And say yes. as mentioned at the beginning, there's so many other topics that we want to cover with you, so this is a part one.
Speaker 3:This is a tata.
Speaker 2:This is a tata. All right, tata for now And for our audience, we're going to leave a lot of links to Pam's social information and things like that where you and we'll also put on our website where you can actually look at some of the behind the scenes pictures and things like that, so you'll be able to match the visual with the descriptions that she so richly gave. So thank you again, and we really appreciate it.
Speaker 3:Thank you for having me. This was pure welcome.
Speaker 1:This has been another episode of Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn, brooklyn. See you guys next time.