Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn
This is what the world needs now: two free-thinking “seasoned” Black women speaking their truth and inspiring others to do the same. Shaped by 45 years of friendship that began at the prestigious Brooklyn Technical High School through the Ivy League, medical school, marriages, divorces, triumphs, parenting queer children, life-threatening illness and many many amazing adventures. Each week, besties Leslie Osei-Tutu and Angella Fraser will push against boundaries in love, culture, careers, faith, politics and out-dated assumptions about women of a certain age. Remember, you’re never too old to change your mind…or your hair! (but more on that later :-)All views are our own and do not reflect the views of our institution/company. Information provided is not intended to serve as medical advice.
Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn
Who's to Blame When Friendships Go Wrong
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This episode is an intimate journal entry for The Besties where they discuss what happens when friendships become fractured. Leslie and Angella share an honest reflection on the complexities that come with nurturing friendships, understanding the pivotal role of communication in them, and the strength needed to weather misunderstandings.
Even when there is clarity of one’s intentions, it may be time to walk away from the effort to restore what used to be. Maturity dictates that one need not assign blame to any of the participants; rather self-discovery and the courage required to face personal growth head-on is its own reward.
This episode and all previous episodes are available on YouTube. Please join our Besties Quad Squad as a Patreon subscriber at the $5 or $10 monthly level. You'll receive exclusive behind-the-scenes content.
Visit Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn website for behind-the-scenes extras.
Hey Ange, hey Liz, how are you? I'm doing great. You're doing great, me too.
Speaker 2I like that. You're doing great. That is a beautiful backdrop you got. Thank you, who put all that together.
Speaker 1Well, I had a little help from my friends. I came by with a little help from my friends, and we're going to be talking about friendships today.
Speaker 2Yeah, we are, that's an excellent segue.
Speaker 1I know, I know. Thank you, I'm brilliant.
Speaker 2Welcome to another episode of Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn, brooklyn.
Speaker 1Yeah, we're going to be talking about friendship today, and with a different take on it, because obviously Leslie and I are best friends. We've been besties for 40 something years. How?
Speaker 2many. I think it's 47 now.
Speaker 1I think it's 47. Yeah, and we wanted to talk about friendships, when friendships, friendships, when friendships go in decline, when friendships disappoint, when friendships die.
Speaker 2Dun, dun dun.
Speaker 1Dun dun dun, because although we both have amazing friends and many of our friends are from high school, we've maintained really close friendships with our friends high school. A few of mine I went to college with, a few of mine I went to college with. But there have been some times that things didn't turn out so well and I wanted to talk about it because that happened for me rather recently. It's been going on for a little bit, but it kind of came to a crescendo um recently, and so, um, it has been on my mind and I was like les, what do you think?
Speaker 2what do you think I need to talk about it yeah so we decided to talk about it. First of all, we have this friendship thing down.
Speaker 1We really do we do, it's on lock.
Speaker 2We have this on lock, we get each other, and one of the things I appreciate, what I appreciate about the relationship, is that we don't always agree with each other. No, we do not, but we manage to have even controversial, or you know, I wouldn't say we have difficult conversations, because I wouldn't say that, but conversations where we're not in agreement with each other.
Speaker 1That's right.
Speaker 2We're able to hear each other respectfully and I usually get you to change your mind. But I usually get you to change your mind, but I usually get you to change your mind, you see and that's when, when, when each of the other person thinks that they got the best of it. You know.
Speaker 1And I wanted to mention too. I wanted to mention that if you become a Patreon subscriber and if you become a Patreon subscriber you will see a recording. That is a good example of Leslie getting on my last nerve. We were together not too long ago. She came to help me get my new apartment set up and she always wants to be the boss. She always wants to.
Speaker 2She always thinks she could do it better. That's true, and she's really competitive. Yes, I'm very it's like I'll turn anything into a competition.
Speaker 1It's almost.
Speaker 2It's a little ridiculous.
Speaker 1I do it at work. It's a lot ridiculous.
Speaker 2I tell people like I can do that first, or I can do that better or Right. All right, you want to bet? I don't know why, but I like the competition.
Speaker 1And it's ridiculous.
Speaker 2I like the gamesmanship and it could be anything it could be. Let me tell you I can make a game out of anything Like what you turn into our Patreon subscriber. I can make a game out of anything.
Speaker 1But you will see what she took a recording of, so that hope. She was very hopeful that I would fail and I'd have to do it for you. This is what I deal with. This is what I deal with.
Speaker 2And as they say I just want to give you a reason to keep me around.
Speaker 1What? By getting off on her. It's called friendship security. By plucking that last nerve, If you get an accomplishment.
Speaker 2You'll say Les, can you help me? And I'm like I'm here for you because I heart you. That's what would happen, but anyway. So you were speaking about being disappointed by friendship, or Talk more about that.
Speaker 1Well, I you know, because I really live a pretty drama-free life and there has been drama in my life, but those are spikes. They're not like the constant spikes. They're not like the constant, in particular around friendships. I can tell pretty early whether things are going to work out as friendship or not, and I don't think I let bad friendships in. So it's unusual for me to be in a situation where I have a friendship that really like what, the what, that's, what that's who you think I am, and because I start from a space of trust and then you know, I learned whether that was right or wrong and often, 98% of the time I'm right, I can move forward, the trust is there, it's maintained and so on, and so in this case I realized that it wasn't and it really not me. What wasn't?
Speaker 2The trust wasn't there. The trust wasn't there.
Speaker 1The trust wasn't there For you or for the other person. In my interpretation. What I realized is it wasn't that the other person did not trust me enough to tell me something that, had I been told I would have taken care of it, but the idea that I wasn't told and I was and got this is the zinger. You should have known that part, ooh, that part I get that when your intention is under scrutiny, you're you know well, if I said I didn't know, then you're calling me a liar.
Speaker 2If you say that I should have seen that, yeah.
Speaker 1And I that together.
Speaker 2And this is a friend, you know.
Speaker 1Yeah, so, um, so, that's so. That's what happened.
Speaker 2It's a combination of, like impugning your integrity yes, exactly, making these bold assumptions that have been unchecked and then acting on it Because, if you think about it, if a friend or partner or spouse or child thinks that your intentions are malicious or not, or different than what is said, right. Then they act on that.
Speaker 1Exactly.
Speaker 2And they don't give you a chance to correct it Exactly, and they don't give you a chance to correct it Exactly.
Speaker 1And to me, what makes it even worse is that you start to. Well. If they were thinking that, well, when I did this, what did they think? Or when I didn't do that, what did they think? It starts making you crazy right. That's why I don't do it.
Speaker 2It starts making you crazy, exactly Because then you start going back in your mind like why did they say this?
Speaker 1And oh they must have thought this Right, you know it starts this loop. Yeah, and I don't have time for it. I don't want it in my life, and so I don't have it in my life, except when you know the rare occasion when this happens. It's really, really, really unsettling, it's jarring, and but again, you learn about yourself, and that's what this has done. What do you mean by that?
Speaker 2What have you learned about yourself in this process.
Speaker 1If someone else is misinterpreting you, well, um, I've learned a couple of things. One thing is that, um, you know, when you say how could someone do that, what you're really saying is how could somebody not be like me? How could somebody not be like me? How could somebody be different than me? Really?
Speaker 2Yeah, I wouldn't do it that way, I wouldn't think that way. You and, in fact, angie, you and I say that often. Yeah, we say it often because what I've learned? I had this conversation with Earn recently, you know. I said you know, you know, you've always said that I am a different person than many. Right, you know I do things differently, so therefore you should expect my behaviors to be different than many people. You know I wouldn't react in the same way that many people do. Right, you know, right, yeah.
Speaker 2So you may not want to expect a typical response from me, if you've known that Leslie is always different.
Speaker 1Right, weird, should we say weird? Or you want to stay with different?
Speaker 2I'll say different. I'll say better. All right, we're good. I'll say better, we're going to stick with different. I don't want to put adjectives on it. I would say superlative, superior, even.
Speaker 1Extra, extra. But the thing is that when and I think we're all guilty of that right Expecting that one person's intention or their behavior comes with it some intention that you impose on it, because had you done that same behavior, it would be with a different and with with a different intention. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2so for example see yourself, yeah you know, and so you're like looks like it what?
Speaker 1why would someone do that? Why would somebody do that so?
Speaker 2because I would never do that yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1So, to answer your question, that's something that I'm actually putting a lot of thought into, because I do believe, without any doubt, that God allows different things to come into your life to learn. And so if we take this posture of, oh my God, where's the learning going to happen? But if you take it, okay, god, you let this in. For a reason, it passed through your desk. What am I supposed to learn from it? And so that is the process that I'm in right now is what is the learning? Is XYZ because of behavior. Abc, it's kind of the same thing as it's kind of the same thing as, maybe, what the other person was thinking that my behavior indicated something that it didn't.
Speaker 2In other words, it's another assumption.
Speaker 1It's another assumption.
Speaker 2That may not be valid.
Speaker 1Right right.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1Right, and the thing is, figuring these things out and trying to make sense of them has very little to do with whether you're going to run and hug and kumbaya and everything is going to be great. That's not my goal. My goal is to understand what I'm supposed to learn and make it a part of who I am and take it into the next thing. Right, it's not to. It's not necessarily this reparative thing. It's what am I supposed to learn? Cause it's, it's kind of exhausting. And I think you know what did I say the other day? Are you going to don't spend a level effort on C-level issues or people? I didn't want to say that.
Speaker 2So, going back to that analogy, as a C-level person and I don't want to say that because it sounds insulting Do you think then your friendship and your judgment about this person was inappropriate or misguided? Did you see the person in the wrong way?
Speaker 1No, no, that's not kind of the. That's not where I am right now. That is, someone could think very differently from you and you may understand that and you may still choose. Okay, that person is not someone that I will allow into my pool, Right.
Speaker 2So it's not-. I'm thinking because they may pee in your pool, because they may pee in your pool.
Speaker 1They need to be in the kiddie pool. Right, they need to be in the kiddie pool. So it's, it's not um, it depends on how you you know, how you place this person in your life and it, but it also depends on um, whether there was insult and injury and insult and injury and you. I don't want to spend the time unpacking, I just know that that didn't feel cool to me and I don't have to have it. That's up to me to have it, or not All right.
Speaker 2A few things. I'm thinking about that Typically in our 60 plus years of living, the people that remain in our lives as friends and long-term friends, we've already vetted them.
Speaker 2Yes, and we already have an idea of how they're going to treat us, and expectations and all of those things. So the people that we call close friends, we feel that we know them and can expect certain behaviors from them. Yeah, so what I'm saying is and the people that didn't make that bar or were untrustworthy, or over the years, or whatever, they're already out of our lives out of our lives, but the people that remain.
Speaker 2What I'm asking is if those people might then hurt us by misjudging us or whatever. Is that a failure of our judgment as seeing those people differently than what they actually are? Well, I want to and then how does that allow us to judge our relationships going forward? Do we trust?
Speaker 1our judgment. Well, I want you to answer that with your experience, because I know that some of what you've expressed before, that relationship that went the wrong way for you. That's what it left you feeling. So it's that's not how I felt in this particular case, because you know it's not like something happened and that was it, I'm done with it. It's something happened. You try to work it out, you explain, they explain, you know, you still see, like you know, and it's a series of things because I, I give grace and that just left me feeling this may be what the person is used to and I'm absolutely not used to this and I don't want it and I will not be looked at that way because that's, if that's your typical, your typical, and if I'm, if I'm going to get treated like your typical, I'm out.
Speaker 2Thank you so that's.
Speaker 1That's how that worked. But what about you?
Speaker 2I can think of two instances where people Really I wonder what prompted that. I tell you it's AI stuff. Was it the two I don't know.
Speaker 1Anyway, I don't know what prompted the balloons. I think maybe you did something like this with the balloons. I don't know Anyway.
Speaker 2I can think of two instances where people that were close to me or in my heart, I would say disappointed me, and it did change my outlook on such relationships. In one particular case there was a rift, and I'm sure this is common around the first Trump not presidency, but running what is it political campaign.
Speaker 2And there was a lot of as we all remember, there was a lot of Facebook chatter about different things and when I expressed my political views that were counter to someone who I felt, a few people who I felt close to me, I really didn't like the way that they handled the interaction.
Speaker 1So Les be clear. Was it your political point of view or was it the way that you were feeling about what was going on?
Speaker 2if I recall, it wasn't had opposing political point of view, which is fine, that's right, exactly that's okay. But uh, they could not empathize with my position and that was what was most hurtful, because I thought that our love and our friendship was built on mutual empathy, feelings and things like that, and I don't doubt that she and I love each other. We still do. However, for me, there was an indelible rift in the relationship because of that.
Speaker 2We're still close, but it's something has changed for me Right, because when she was unable to see my point of view, Right. And I'm not. I never asked her or anyone to agree with it, but I wanted them to try to understand my point of view and I got a lot of resistance from that.
Speaker 1So I'm going to ask you to if you could explain that a little bit more. Here's why. It may seem to anyone listening that this was a point of view, an opinion. You know everyone has an opinion, right, but this was more you expressing fears you expressing, you know, personal concern, correct, which is very different than opinion and political point of view.
Speaker 1So but I mean, why aren't you saying that? Why are you making it like it's this? You had a political debate and she didn't see your point of view. It wasn't that it was. You had some fears and you were emotionally um vulnerable well in this particular case because I don't I don't know how specific I you were emotionally vulnerable. Well, in this particular case, because I don't know how specific I need to be, well, you don't have to get specific, yeah, I understand what you're asking.
Speaker 2So to be a little clearer I expressed my personal reasons why I could not support and would be fearful of a Trump presidency.
Speaker 2So the question was posed what do you have to fear? Well, I live in a country where I have two black sons and I have nine black nephews. I live in a country that's racist, that this person who was going to be looking to be elected into office has spouted racist ideas and xenophobia, and we are both New Yorkers, so I've known about Trump way before the country knew about Trump, et cetera, et cetera. So I had specific fears and concerns about what a Trump presidency would look like.
Speaker 2Right right, and I do remember the question was well, what do you have to fear? Or, oh, that's not. And they minimized my concerns, when someone who is a loved one should all should likewise be concerned about the wellbeing of my loved ones. Right, Right or black, Got it? Black men in America Got it Already an endangered species, you know? Yeah, I get it. So from that point of view we are different races. She's white, I'm black. Obviously. It just got me thinking. You know how I had a colleague one time say to me when we got into a conversation I think it was about politics also Well, I don't see you as black, and that was his way of saying, I just see you as a regular person or whatever.
Speaker 2But what I explained to him was that if you don't see me as black, then you don't see me, right? Yep, because facts, as a black person in america, yeah, that's a defining characteristic, right, that colors, no pun intended, every aspect of my life. Absolutely so if you don't see leslie as a black woman right or if you don't see leslie as a woman and you just say she, she's, that, she's just a person, then you are not seeing who I am.
Speaker 1Yeah, you're not being seen fully.
Speaker 2Right.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2Yeah, and people think that they're being kind or progressive when they say well, I don't see you as black.
Speaker 1Right, right, Well you ought to. You ought to.
Speaker 2Because then you would have a different understanding of who I am and what I navigate on a regular basis versus what you navigate. Yes, you know he and. I. We're both anesthesiologists, but we walk differently in the world.
Speaker 1Sure, you do, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2You know, wow. Lastly, yeah, you know, wow, leslie. Yeah, you know, a patient would never ask him if he's a nurse, right, wow? You know and that's not just a gender thing because we have male nurses, Sure but you know, wow, I've had people after I introduced myself and talked to them or whatever, and we're getting off topic, but they you- know, here I am, I'm doctor, such and such and such, and they're like where's my doctor?
Speaker 2yeah, you know. So, yeah, it's a. It's a whole different thing. So anyone who loves me and respects me and calls me their friend, I want them to have an inkling of how I, how the world is and how my world is Right, not just the fun les that can hang out and you know, whatever, I'm that too Sure, sure, yeah, but yeah, but yeah, yeah, yeah, um, and so you're, you're still.
Speaker 1Things are, things have shifted um in your relationship, but you're still for sure, for sure.
Speaker 2And although, like I said, this happened 2015-16, so quite a while ago it's still. I still feel it, it's still visceral. You know the loss I wouldn't call it in this case the loss of a friendship as you referred it, but even the altering or the radical change in a friendship is, um, it's jarring, yeah, and I don't know about you, but for me it has caused me to question my judgment and how quickly or easily I connect to people.
Speaker 1Oh, wow.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1That's unfortunate.
Speaker 2No, well, if I die tomorrow. I have had many loves and friends in my life. I don't need any more, you know.
Speaker 1I'm just saying.
Speaker 2I don't look at it as unfortunate. I look at it as progress and just a learning experience. Right, you know, I'm just saying I don't look at it as unfortunate.
Speaker 1I look at it as progress and just a learning experience. You know, right, but you saw that as a misjudgment. That's the part that I mean. It's almost like if you're in a romantic relationship and things.
Speaker 2I've had those. I know me too.
Speaker 1I've had those. I know, me too, I've had those. It's almost like you've, and something goes terribly wrong and it's like how could I not have seen that? Yeah, Is it kind of the same thing? Yes, oh, okay.
Speaker 2Yeah, okay, yeah, like Les.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2Yeah, okay, yeah, like Les, yeah, yeah. Why aren't you more discerning Right?
Speaker 1Or why aren't?
Speaker 2you more trusting Right or why, aren't you less trusting Right? Or you know what I mean, right. But, I'm similar to you in that way. I take people on face value.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2I trust way quicker than I mistrust. Yeah, you know, it's really. I've always said it's so easy to pull the wool over my eyes because if you tell me something, I believe you until I have reason not to. It's so true. Why wouldn't you tell me the truth?
Speaker 1And that's why it's like when people think you're lying, it's like I don't have the time, I'm not a good lie because I don't remember listen, I have enough running this life. Yeah, yeah, yeah this reality, alternate life. You know the secret, life, the secret lives, because I you know, if I do it once, I'm doing with a who's got time for that shit.
Speaker 2And why do we need to? We're grownups.
Speaker 1Why we're grownups. With free will. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't mean that the friendship can never be like if I way that I keep friendships the way that I maintain friendships. It can't be that. So I kind of don't know what that is to not be all in as a friend. I don't know what that looks like.
Speaker 2Ooh, I don't Wow, but you have different levels of friendship. Well, sure, not everybody is close to a bosom.
Speaker 1Yeah, but if they're different levels. So you know, I like to talk about pools. If they're in different pools, then that's where they are, but if they're in a pool and then they jump to another pool, it's like you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2You're not supposed to be in that pool, Right?
Speaker 1It's like you know what I'm saying. You're not supposed to be in that pool, right? It's like wait, but in that pool I am this vulnerable, I share this type of thing and I just can't manage that well, so I'd rather not, I'd rather just you know, because, again, it's not lying, but it's like I don't want to have to feel like I have to protect myself from a friend. You understand, that's really what it is. I don't feel like I need, I don't want to have the responsibility of trying to protect my words and what I say. Will they use it? I don't, I don't have it. I don't have it.
Speaker 2But that means they go from then the friend zone to the acquaintance zone.
Speaker 1I don't know. I haven't figured it all out. I'm just saying this is it's unusual, right?
Speaker 2It's fairly new to the point where you bringing it up. We're talking about it.
Speaker 1Yeah, it was. It was very off putting. I mean, I've had riffs in friendships and they were worth it and we both made the effort and it's completely healed and amazing. That's not what this was. This was, I think. For me it was gaslighting. It was, you know, you know, and when people are not willing to kind of see what they may have done wrong, or I, I, I, I just, I just, I haven't developed those skills yet yeah to manage that and I I know what I have to do and we talked about it.
Speaker 2Wow, some of the messiness is going on.
Speaker 1It did, it did, and then on the other side, don't you still have to grieve a little bit? Yes, yes, I do. And that's kind of where, when you said that, you went into kind of self Self-doubt like what did I? How could I? That's why I reacted that way, because it's not I wasn't. I didn't and don't feel that way at all. It wasn't that, it was. They're responsible for their behavior and I'm responsible for my behavior.
Speaker 2And I don't think you could have anticipated any of it.
Speaker 1It's I, it kind of doesn't matter to me. It kind of doesn't matter to me because I made the decisions that I made at the time based on the facts that I made at the time, based on the facts that I knew at the time.
Speaker 2Right.
Personal Growth Through Authentic Relationships
Speaker 1And so it's like I'm wondering why you made that wrong decision five years ago or you know. It's like you were a different person than they're all you know what I mean.
Speaker 2We do the best, we can, but doesn't that type of post hoc analysis inform the future, your future?
Speaker 1Yes, it does.
Speaker 2And relationships.
Speaker 1So in that regard it's worth.
Speaker 2You know the download.
Speaker 1Yeah it does. It's worth, you know the download? Yeah it does. But here's the way that I interpreted what you said that made me react that way. I have to change myself. Versus they were at fault, they did X, Y, Z. It's almost like you're this open person and someone takes advantage of it and you start doubting yourself and take that into your next thing.
Speaker 1Well, I'm not gonna be so like that, because exactly, that's very I know, that is why romantic relationships exactly, so nobody's gonna hurt me exactly or sometimes they don't even go for other relationships exactly that's the way it hit me, like you were using that to to change your, for example, your trusting ways, because it made you question your discernment. Yeah, you don't want to do that. You really don't want to do that.
Speaker 2We have to go into all of our relationships with our authentic selves not regarded, because we know what those types of relationships look like and they don't look good. They don't look good. They do not good, they don't look good, they do not. Like I was saying to someone you know you want to see the best of me. You don't want to see, you know, a part of me or this or that. You know you want the best of me. Yeah, and.
Speaker 1I think that's what we're responsible for. You know that's what we're responsible for. You know that's what we're responsible for. So, anywho, that's a good talk. Thank you for sharing that. Thank you, I feel better.
Speaker 2Well, good, that's what I'm here for. That's your job. I live for that. I like it. Mission accomplished. I like it. Mission accomplished, I like it Well. I'll say that Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn is produced by our own Angela Fraser, our editing team is by Matt Dershowitz and we get excellent social media and marketing from Couture Copywriting. So this has been another episode of Black Rumor Besties from.
Speaker 1Brooklyn, brooklyn.
