Ep 39 S4/3 Grieving Andy

Leslie lost a friend last week. She wanted to honor him by speaking his name and saying goodbye; something she wasn't able to do because he went into solitude a few years before his death.

Dr Andrew Citron left behind two daughters and a wife of 29 years when he lost his two year battle with a rare brain cancer.  Leslie first met Andy 16 years ago when she interviewed with him for her current position as a staff anesthesiologist.

They bonded and formed a friendship from the very beginning. Dr Citron was not only a talented anesthesiologist but he was also her boss, a mentor, a friend and an ear to listen  empathetically during those rare but inevitable tough times in the operating room.  Andy was funny, in a soft spoken way, and he was so good-natured that Leslie often told him he was too much of a pushover to be anybody’s boss. 

This episode is a cathartic conversation about her loss.  Through tears, she talks about her connection to Andy, wondering if he knew that he held a special place in her heart. The Besties contemplate to what extent the dying should  consider the grief of those left behind.

Transcript

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SPEAKER_01 0:03

Hello.

SPEAKER_05 0:05

Hey Les, how are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 0:08

I'm not doing so great. And I said, you know what? Let's get on. Let's get on the podcast and do a little recording. Because I have some ideas, uh, some thoughts. I need some consoling. And I also want the opportunity to talk about my friend.

SPEAKER_05 0:30

Okay. So and the podcast, our public, as you say.

SPEAKER_01 0:36

Yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_05 0:37

And I are available for you.

SPEAKER_01 0:42

Right, right. Right. I I was gonna push back and and um a little bit if you said the public needs to know, but you know what? The public needs to know, and the public needs to hear this person's name. So, welcome to another episode of Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn.

SPEAKER_03 0:57

Brooklyn!

SPEAKER_01 1:00

I am recording today because about an hour and a half ago I got word that I lost a friend, Andrew Citron. And Andy, as I call him, passed away yesterday after a two-year illness. I knew he was ill. We knew he was ill. Um, but when a person has an illness or a terminal illness, Lord knows we don't know, you know, when their last days are. So Dr. Andrew Citron was my boss. He was uh a mentor to me in the world of anesthesiology. He was certainly the first person I met, first colleague I met, when I interviewed with him for my current position 16 years ago. So I've known Andy for 16 years. Wow. I'll say that Andy taught me so many things. We were about the same age. Um, but he finished training a bit before I did, because remember, I had a second career, or medicine is my second career, and Andy just taught me so many things about being a good anesthesiologist. But even outside the world of clinical medicine and patient care and all of that, um, he was just a good human being. And when you know people in the field that I'm in, in a um busy hospital when patients are often sick and your work environment can be stressful at times, sometimes it's difficult to notice the humanity and the goodness in the people who are working next to next to you.

SPEAKER_04 3:18

Right.

SPEAKER_01 3:19

But um but it wasn't hard to notice that Andy was a special person. And he just occupies a special place in my heart. Andy had a wife. I won't mention his wife or his two daughters' names, um, but I knew them as well. And and the one of the reasons why I really wanted to talk to you about this today, because while I feel such a deep loss over the loss of my friend, the other side of me, I feel a little bit selfish. Because I'm concerned about my loss and my feelings when his wife and his girls have such an immeasurable loss. So I just want to explore that a little bit because I know I'm not alone in these thoughts. You and I have talked about, you know, when um we've heard about a loss of a loved one or a friend, you know, we commonly just off the cuff say, I'm sorry for your loss. And Ange, you're the one, as usual. Excuse me a second. You're such a damn gadfly. I'm uh what is what did you call me?

SPEAKER_05 5:10

What did you call me, Leslie? What did you call me?

SPEAKER_02 5:14

A gadfly. Remember that from a little bit.

SPEAKER_05 5:16

I want you to spell it. I want you to repeat it. I want you to spell it.

SPEAKER_01 5:20

I'm not gonna repeat it because if I'm using it in the wrong context, I don't want to be uh embarrassed.

SPEAKER_05 5:26

So I just want to go be it's too late. It's too late.

SPEAKER_01 5:30

G-A-D-F-L-Y, a gadfly. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 5:33

And what do you what do you want it to mean?

SPEAKER_01 5:37

I'll use it in in I'll I'll speak about the context so um you'll know what I mean. So when we've talked in the past about expressing, I'm sorry for your loss, what you've reminded me or what you've told me is that that statement actually brings the focus to you and not to the person who has suffered the loss. Yeah, you are telling them how you feel rather than presenting an expression of understanding or empathy about how they feel. And at that time where while it's nice, it's catchy, and it is a conveyor, uh conveyance of sorrow, it doesn't speak to that person, it really tells them about you at a time when they may not necessarily be concerned about you. So because that's in the back of my head, I'm tearful and I'm grieving because I lost someone. So I'm turning that loss inwardly. You know, I lost someone that I've loved and that was a friend who taught me things that further my career and my practice of medicine. And I have a loss also. There's another um component of it that I think is is is uh important here is that Andy being a very private person during his two now two-year illness, he didn't keep in touch with me or you know, some of our my colleagues. So whereas I would reach out to him occasionally on his birthday or text him, just because I think of him frequently, um I lost a connection when he retired due to his illness. And I wish I had some time over the last two years to spend with him and let him know how much he means and meant to me. And I think when he made the decision, you know, to stay away and deal with his illness more personally, that not only did he rob me abruptly of my friend and my ability to try to soothe him through his a difficult time. I also want wanted to make sure that he knew how much he meant to me.

unknown 8:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:53

And I didn't have, I don't think, I'm not sure if I had the opportunity to express that. So there's so many emotions going on, and uh, that's why I I uh yeah.

SPEAKER_05 9:15

I um this must be really uh he must have been really special to you for you to want to um speak of him publicly and um for you to want to be so vulnerable in your grief. Um I I don't think there is any way that Andy did not know how much you loved him. You cannot one cannot be in your space and not know because you show it in little ways, big ways, you're always the one who is um who's reaching out, who does those little things like what I got the other day. Um that that um that uh token of uh Topez that you sent me, along with the cards, along with the um, it's just who you are by nature. And so I I I I hope you are you will allow yourself to believe that Andy deeply knew how much you um how much you loved him, yeah. How much you loved him, and I um, you know, everything that you said can happen, can be true at the same time. You know, you feel the way you feel, his family feels the way they feel. He felt the way he did to to want to um just maybe control his energy, how he was using it. Um, there may have been a lot of things that he wanted to say and do with his family, and he had to kind of um create that um sanctified space. Um, but it doesn't make you any less sorrowful. Yeah. You know what I mean? All of that is is true. It's it's it's true. You're experiencing the fact that all of that is true at the same time, because I know that you would not want him to have um um focused on you and how you were feeling, of course. Right your love would have wanted him to do exactly what he did. Exactly what he did, you know. Um and um, you know, when we when we give out love like those text messages that you sent or other ways that you reached out, um you know from your own experience that those things catch the other side just when they're needed.

SPEAKER_01 12:17

So you've talked about Andy so yeah, I've been talking about him for 16 years, you know, so laughing with him and this. So yeah, I believe our loved ones live in in our in our hearts and in our memories. So, you know, he's there, he's he's he'll always be there. Right. Um, you know, a couple other things that I'm thinking though. Listen, on my way home, after I heard the news, I went into a store and I said to the young man working behind the counter, I'm like, how's your day going? Uh he says, it's going. I'm here. I'd say he was about 28 years old, whatever. I'm here. And I said, Wow, you don't know how lucky you are.

SPEAKER_03 13:12

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 13:13

My friend is not here anymore. He was here yesterday.

SPEAKER_03 13:18

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_01 13:20

You know, obviously, I didn't get into that conversation.

SPEAKER_02 13:23

I'm like, all right, have a good one.

SPEAKER_01 13:26

But um it it makes me think about that a lot. Um, you know, we are here, and many people didn't wake up yesterday, this morning, you know, and people were here yesterday, and then I don't know, it just it just takes me to such a place that I tell you, we from what I know, even from a medical, clinical, medical standpoint, from a humanistic um standpoint, and from a societal endpoint, we do death so poorly. Yeah, so poorly. And not one person that I know of has ever left this world without it.

SPEAKER_02 14:20

We all die. We all go. I'm like, it, oh yeah, death. Okay, that it eludes nobody, nobody escapes it.

SPEAKER_01 14:31

And we still, you know, I've taken courses on death and dying, I've read books on death and dying, yet, and still there are many people who won't even mention the word. Right. You know, as though they're gonna live forever. You know, I dream of a world, morbid dream, this is, I'll admit. I dream of a world where we feel free to discuss it, free to talk about the end of our lives, what we would want at the end of our lives, what our endings and celebrations of life would look like. I dream of a world where that's not taboo and morbid. I dream of a world where we can start celebrating our lives instead of lamenting early the end of our lives. And with the fear around talking, about talking about our lives. This is something that I've said to my family. One of the reasons why it's important to talk about death and the end of our lives is that you put your loved ones and those mourning your loss in a better position. I've told my mother, I don't want to have to take care of and handle your 80 plus years of affairs in grief. I rather do that while you're alive and can make decisions. Waiting for the family to grieve over a loss is an awful time. Emotionally, uh physically, people are spread out in different places. Um, people may not be um prepared for untimely deaths. It's just a poor time. I mean, I'm a planner, I'm an organized person. That may be the left brain part of me. And I just look at the way that some people's lives end. And it is just, I just think it's an awful thing, unavoidable. You know, and this is not any at all comment about Andy at this point because I, you know, I don't have any idea about that part of his affairs. Um, but I'm just talking in the general sense that I would love that people's the end of their lives are spent in celebration of their lives and um discussing the sadness, talking about memories. You know how sometimes when we lose people, we don't bring up their names sometimes to their loved ones because we don't want to hurt them.

SPEAKER_04 17:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:46

As though like they're not already hurting. And the mention of their names. What I found in talking to people and reading about it is that people prefer you not to act as though the person didn't exist.

SPEAKER_01 18:03

You know, people like when you talk about the good memories and and things like that. Um, it's the opposite of what we think of intuitively, but wow, today was not a day that I intended to talk or think about this. But um, you know, here we are.

SPEAKER_05 18:24

Here we are. How how um how would you what would you have said to Andy if you had had the chance?

SPEAKER_01 18:46

Wow. I I had so many imaginary conversations with him over the last two years. And when I would text him, I would leave it brief, yeah, you know, because I wasn't sure of things, but um I would one let him know that professionally what an impact he's had on my life and the practice of medicine. And if I say so myself, I've been told that I'm a a a very good doctor and a very uh caring physician. And a lot of that, you know, he's modeled that for me. He's always been an honest. I've always said to him, I said, Andy, you should never be a boss. You're too nice. I would tell him, you're a sucker. You know, you're the head of a department. And and as an anesthesiologist, you know, department of anesthesiology, we need to stand up on our own, you know, because sometimes, you know, proverbially the other departments or surgeons or whatever can take advantage of us, right? So, and I'm like, you're too nice, you know, you you let people get away with things or whatever. But he always stood up for the for us docs, you know, he always had our backs, he always defended us in the larger sense when he was on the med exec committees and things like that. Um, so he certainly represented us very well.

SPEAKER_03 20:34

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 20:37

You know, you always expect your chief or your boss, you know, to be like I would always say, you know, when is the shoe gonna drop? You know, oh he seems so nice and stuff, but yeah, when this when it hits the fan, it's really gonna come out. Right. And um it hasn't dropped. Nope. Wow, he was a great person to work for, you know, he was understanding, he was concerned about me uh and uh Omari through Omari's illnesses, you know, he allowed me um to be a mom of a sick son while I was still working. That reminds me of one of the regrets that I have that he left around the time that I, I believe right after I returned back from my kidney transplant two years ago. So his last months, I would say, you know, working with us, I didn't spend time with him. He would always check in. And when he would check in with me, he would say, This is the way. Is was he would say, I'm not calling you as your boss because I don't want to get in trouble bothering you while you're away on leave. I'm calling to see how you're doing as a friend. You know, you know, are you taking care of yourself? He didn't give me any pressure at all, but when I told him I was coming back to work a bit early, because I felt so great after my organ donation, he was like, Yes! Yes, you know, a lot of times I would get requested to provide anesthesia for colleagues or people I knew or things like that. And I'm like, Andy, I'm one person, I can't do anesthesia for everybody.

SPEAKER_02 23:07

You know how I feel about this. I hate giving anesthesia to people I know, you know.

SPEAKER_00 23:15

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_01 23:16

Or um, like I heard um yesterday, someone was telling me about a patient, and they're like, Well, you know, this person is a big wig and whatever, they're like a VIP or whatever. And I'm like, you know, I don't want to hear about VIPs. Everybody's a VIP.

SPEAKER_00 23:34

I don't want to know what they do or who they know and what I don't want to know. Perfect. You know, so Andy and I would always laugh about these things in the office.

SPEAKER_01 23:43

Perfect. Wow. So I just wanted to um speak his name out loud and just say out loud what he meant to me. Maybe somebody will hear it that knew him. And um I don't want this at all to be about me, but I'm hurting today.

SPEAKER_03 24:03

Right.

SPEAKER_01 24:03

And for a while. And I look at death in a way that this is the reason why we don't visit loved ones in cemeteries, because traditionally in my family, we allow memories and spirits and loved ones to live with us all the time. So I don't need to go to a place to um to talk to a stone, the grave marker of a loved one. You know, I can talk to them as I'm sitting.

SPEAKER_05 24:36

So I just want to so that's available to you. Yeah, because he is. He's body is no longer here, but he still is wow.

SPEAKER_01 25:00

Let me ask you this. I might be seeing the family, but I won't say I'm sorry for your loss.

SPEAKER_05 25:12

Do not what are some options? Give me some options. Well, first get your heart space right.

SPEAKER_01 25:20

And I just blew my nose on.

SPEAKER_05 25:25

I've been dabbing at it for 20 minutes. That is so much better than allowing it to drip. Okay, no, but I was all right.

SPEAKER_06 25:34

That's okay now.

SPEAKER_05 25:35

That's okay.

SPEAKER_06 25:36

All all all good choices. Thank you. What are better things to say?

SPEAKER_05 25:42

Well, what well um well what I do is first get my heart right.

SPEAKER_01 25:47

Well, that's true, but I've heard you say let me know how I can serve you at this time.

SPEAKER_03 26:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:04

It still rings a little empty for me, though.

SPEAKER_05 26:08

Well, um, and don't say that if um what makes that even sweeter is if you say, if you offer, um, can I serve you by bringing you um some meals?

SPEAKER_01 26:22

Right, because people are not known to things like things like that. Be specific.

SPEAKER_05 26:27

Right. Be specific around um, look how you felt when when you got uh so many food, food services.

SPEAKER_01 26:38

Everything it was amazing, everything. Not only did people say, Let's get well soon, but right Ellen was the first person to bring like this massive amount of catered Italian food that I froze. Unbelievable.

SPEAKER_00 26:58

Oh my god, my my partner Dina, she she's a great cook, and she just baked this dish for me that I like tucked away and froze and ate like little bits at a time so it wouldn't run out.

SPEAKER_01 27:14

And and then the people um uh Domalie and uh Pam and Shola, they hired a chef for me. Yeah, so I felt their love through their actions.

SPEAKER_05 27:31

Right, right. That's that's the answer. Yeah, okay. That's the answer, all right. And you can um just in the words, like think about what they I know you're hurting right now, and yeah, I if there's if if um uh Andy was a wonderful person, you know what I mean? Um it was wonderful to have had him um in my life, yeah. Right, because oftentimes your loved ones are shocked by um how much other people know you, right and are and are touched by you. Yeah. So, you know, you you'll the the the focus is really just it thinking about them and not being and and once you do that, I think um it it becomes it becomes easy to find things to to say that could be encouraging, you know. I'm I'm praying for for peace and sure. Um you know, those those types of things. Yeah. Yeah. I remember um when I used to have those uh head head talks, those um courageous community conversations at my home uh a few years ago, and there was one that I facilitated around death and and dying. And um I remember, you know, I'm into to TED Talks, and I remember seeing a few TED talks that um one of them focused on the work of this woman. I don't remember her name, but I do have these head talks um uh on a website that I'll I'll put in the um episode notes. But one person uh it was in Louisiana, she converted the side of an old building, um painted it with chalkboard paint, and then um actually painted on the words, Before I die, I want to, and drew lines, and anyone, of course, there was chalk, you could come and write. Yeah, write write that, and it became this thing that people adopted in cities all over the world. It's like a public bucket list. Exactly, a public bucket list, and you know, I definitely know the power of writing, of getting it from your head through your hands onto something that you can then read. Um you know, using your eyes, all of all of these senses involved in it, um, it it's significant, it makes a significant difference. So that's one thing that um you might we might want to encourage people to to do because as you were saying, when you die, you're good. The person who died is good, yeah. Yeah, it's the people that they leave behind that go through whatever financial or um emotional um regrets about what they wish they'd said, um, what they said that they wish they hadn't said, yeah, all of those things. So maybe even just um uh putting some thought into well, what would I want my people to know when I'm gone? Yeah, yeah. And um and and take the opportunity, it doesn't have to be in writing. Tell tell people, tell people, you know. Um what's that? People are saying now, it's a common, um, oh, give people their flowers.

SPEAKER_01 32:00

Right, right.

SPEAKER_05 32:02

Right. So these are things you can do in the right now.

SPEAKER_01 32:06

And that's you're right about that. And and that's an action that one can take, the grieve, the the people who are grieving can take to live their life a little bit differently. And and not to say that their life is bad or anything, but it's like just be more mindful to tell people while they're here how much you care, you know, what they mean, what their lives mean to you.

SPEAKER_05 32:33

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 32:35

You know, Andy and I would sit and laugh sometimes, you know, after he was gone. Sometimes I would send a few times I would send him a picture of how many patients I had in labor, and I'd say, You are so lucky you are not here.

SPEAKER_00 32:56

I remember the one night the board was filled up, and I'm like, let me tell Andy what he's missing.

SPEAKER_06 33:04

And you think that didn't make him laugh? Yes, it did. Yes, it did. Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_01 33:11

Yeah, you know, I um what you said about when the person is gone, it's the family and the village that is the one that has to deal with the loss.

SPEAKER_04 33:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:25

I uh Monique had a birthday recently, and I don't know if I thought it or if I told actually told it to her, but if I didn't tell it to her, it's because I didn't want her to think that I was really nuts. But I wanted to say to her, you know, I have to die before you. That sounds like a threat. I'm gonna go before you better take care of it. I don't want to be in this world without you. So I'll go before you and to heck with how you deal with my death.

SPEAKER_02 34:02

Right, right. It's about your grief, it's all about me. You'll be alright, you'll be alright. That's okay.

SPEAKER_05 34:10

But anyway, you know, Les, you said something about um how the celebration of life aspect of of dying, and I I think there there are communities here. I know in Norleans, um, and maybe more generally in African-American communities, there is that um, you know, homegoing, there's always sadness in death, right? So it's not a matter of um joy. But uh right, but there can also be celebration in it, right?

SPEAKER_01 34:50

Let me speak of celebration. You must witness at some point a Ghanaian homegoing service.

SPEAKER_06 34:59

Really?

SPEAKER_01 35:01

Um for those who don't know my husband is Ghanaian, and I've um been to several um Ghanaian uh Ashanti in particular, uh, homegrowing, homegrown um services for my in-laws and other friends and family. Uh three or four days of ritual. Each day is you're adorned in a different color based on the day or your relationship to the person. Oh wow. Um, it's majestic in many ways, it's celebratory in certain ways. There are the um days of wearing black in the solemnity. Um, but it's as an American, I've never experienced anything like it. You know, it's really something else.

SPEAKER_02 35:57

Right, right. You know, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:59

Andy chose his um final time, his last times um with his family and doing uh things in his own way. But I remember a few years ago you flew out to California to um join one of your friends in his final days, you know.

SPEAKER_05 36:27

This this this tattoo here is is for him. Oh I'm so um I was thinking about him when you were you told me about Andy, and um thank you for giving me space for this because I wanted this to be your time. Um but uh yeah that was that was tough. Um his name was is Michael Stevenson, and uh really one of the purest hearts that I have known, and he showed it in his in his actions. I met him at at Cisco and we immediately clicked. Um one of the things that I'll mention about him is two things. One is he grew up in North Carolina um uh in a family who um did not appreciate black folks, and he's a white guy, and he completely rejected everything that he was taught to be and think, and he was such a man of the people. I remembered one of the things that he did that I was immensely um just blown away by is he would go into San Quentin um jail, and this was his own initiative program that he started to teach the men their um leadership um qualities. And this he did through his illness, he had a very long battle with um cancer. Um and he did this work as if like um nothing, no barrier, no no would have stopped him from from doing the work. And um one of the ways that uh he showed me who who I was to him is um I I visited him uh visited him a few times when he was in the hospital. But when he was close, when he was on his deathbed, as they say, um he specifically asked for me to come there and be with him. Um I got this tattoo uh um when I was leaving. I got it in Oakland. And um I was so honored by that. I have great pictures of him holding my hand. He's still in my favorites on my phone. He's still because I like to I like to be scrolling or whatever and see his name, see his name, his name pop up. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 39:49

When people have passed, I keep them right.

SPEAKER_05 39:51

Just get that hit, that hit of of um of positive memory. But yeah, he he's um amazing.

SPEAKER_01 39:59

And see, I say people live in my heart, and you have a tangible, a right arm of in memoriam and memories of my memorial, my my brother-in-law.

SPEAKER_05 40:14

Yeah, it's it's um, I think I well, you know, tattoos for me um are um I I use them to release um pain, emotional pain. Um, that's when I got this first one in the middle, the biggest one. Um, I I didn't know that it would have the effect. I hoped, and um, and it did. I I I used to at a drop of a pin I would cry about my parents' death. And um I I it was hard to function. And I was like, well, I'd had a one or two small tattoos, and I said, I I wonder if if I kind of took on some emotional, um, physical pain, whether it would um allow me to release to release the emotional pain that I was that I was feeling. And um and it did. I had the whole setup. I was listening to Regan, Bob Marley throughout the whole time. It was a few hours um of the tattoo, and um, and that worked. So it became just my arm for um like a memorial, but also just to um I think tattoos are beautiful, so it was it's just kind of a transference of pain into beauty. Yeah. Um, so we all have our ways. Yeah, we do. Right. We do.

SPEAKER_01 41:51

I'm gonna just remind you quietly.

SPEAKER_05 41:54

Yeah. I just want to remind you that that Andy knew and and his family knew, because all that you talked about him, I'm sure he talked about you at home. Um, and everyone wants their loved ones to be loved by others. Yeah, you know what I mean? Um, a lot of people hate their boss, and um and thank god I don't know what that's like. Yeah, amen.

SPEAKER_01 42:19

Never hated a boss of mine. Thank God. Yeah, that's awesome. You know what? Yeah, I've lived a whole life and never not gotten along with a boss. I've never loved the boss, though. Like I've been ah, there's a difference. There's a difference. Well, thank you for listening. I know this was an odd conversation, but I had to bring it out because I wanted to bring tell you all what's on my heart. Yes, thank you for sharing. Rest in peace, rest in power, my friend. And so we meet again. This is back another episode of Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn. Brooklyn! Love you guys.