Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn
This is what the world needs now: two free-thinking “seasoned” Black women speaking their truth and inspiring others to do the same. Shaped by 45 years of friendship that began at the prestigious Brooklyn Technical High School through the Ivy League, medical school, marriages, divorces, triumphs, parenting queer children, life-threatening illness and many many amazing adventures. Each week, besties Leslie Osei-Tutu and Angella Fraser will push against boundaries in love, culture, careers, faith, politics and out-dated assumptions about women of a certain age. Remember, you’re never too old to change your mind…or your hair! (but more on that later :-)All views are our own and do not reflect the views of our institution/company. Information provided is not intended to serve as medical advice.
Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn
Y’all Ain’t Black Enough to Talk About Colorism!
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As a child, Leslie's great-grandmother habitually scrubbed the knees and elbows of her and her siblings at bathtime in hope of banishing the darker areas of their bodies. Ouch! and WTF!
Nana Lena, born in the early 1900s, experienced first hand the societal advantages of being a Black woman with a lighter skin tone. She believed it right and proper to afford her beloved great grands the same opportunities. Judge her as you may, she was a product of her lived experience and the societal hierarchy of the time.
In this episode, The Besties take a provocative look at colorism; challenging the definition itself and the appropriateness of their role - as two less melanated Black people - to critically discuss a system where their spot on the complexion spectrum is more privileged. Should this be rightfully left to folks on the darker, more negatively impacted, side of the gradient?
Referencing a YouTube video
Jubilee: Light Skin & Dark Skin | Middle Ground
https://youtu.be/6a1LuxEGl9o?si=nci8mbj3CzW2ySkB
Angella and Leslie draw attention to the complex relationship between colorism and racism. Is "we're all Black people" akin to “all lives matter”? While at the same time acknowledging both their privileged and painful personal memories from the characterization of the “redbone”, “light-skin”, “fair-skin” girl.
Join The Besties for uncommon candor about usually covert conversations about colorism.
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Visit Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn website for behind-the-scenes extras.
Exploring Colorism in the Black Community
Speaker 1Nanalina was very fair skin and colorism was a big thing , you know , and she didn't like the fact that we had black knees and elbows .
Speaker 2Oh no , Nanalina used to scrub our knees and elbows with like industrial cleaner and frillo . No , no , no , no , no , no , no . I guess she said no grandchildren of hers are going to have black . That is not true .
Speaker 1Wow , I shouldn't say that we were abused . We would leave bath time all scratched up and scraped up .
Speaker 3Hey Ange , hey Resiree , How's it going ?
Speaker 1With music in your voice , it's going well .
Speaker 3Yes , I'm working on a musical , which we'll talk about at another time , so I have what we call earworms , just the songs just play in our heads all the time . How are you doing ?
Speaker 1I'm doing good . I'm looking at myself in the mirror , in the glass here , and you'll be proud of me because I left my aligners in . I'm trying to be a little bit more compliant with my treatment . So if I'm slurring my words and can't say L , it's not the vodka that's sitting right here , it's the aligners . Is that what we're telling ?
Speaker 3people now , is that what we're telling ?
Speaker 2people .
Speaker 3Welcome to Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn . We are Angela me and that's Leslie Me , my bestie of almost 50 years . We are 60-something-year-old women and we created this podcast to invite all of you to think deeply and act boldly . If you are an inquisitive older woman , or if you love one , or if you want to become one , or if you love one , or if you want to become one , we invite you to sit with us , learn a little something , laugh a lot and enjoy the show .
Speaker 3Today , we're going to be talking about colorism in the Black community and it's so interesting how this came about . Leslie and I recently recorded an episode talking about our grandparents and we'll put a little snippet in this recording because , after we recorded , we recorded a short segment for our Patreon viewers , listeners , viewers and in that , leslie talked about an experience that she had with her grandmother a part of the legacy that we do not want to continue around colorism and some of what her grandmother did . So we're going to her great grandmother did , so we're going to her great grandmother did , so we're going to put that piece in here .
Speaker 1Nanalina was very fair skin and colorism was a big thing , you know , and she didn't like the fact that we had black knees and elbows .
Speaker 2Oh no , nanalina used to scrub our knees and elbows with like industrial cleaner and frillo . No , no , no , no , no , no , no . I guess she said no grandchildren of hers , I are gonna have black she .
Speaker 1That is not true wow , I shouldn't say that we were abused .
Speaker 3We would leave bath time all scratched up and scraped up so what you saw from that is how colorism came into leslie's experience . So me , with my producer hat literally my producer hat I thought about us talking about that more , how we experienced some things based on our complexion . And then so one of the videos that I saw that we wanted to kind of reference in this conversation is Jubilee light skin and dark skin middle ground . So we listened to that video and there are a few things that we wanted to kind of just focus in on , because it was a long video and and it was a group of younger folks talking , but there were definitely some things that linked to what Leslie and I wanted to talk about today . One of those things is is whether colorism is defined as darker skin , people being treated less than If that is the definition of colorism , or is it more broadly , how our complexion plays a role in how we experience being Black . So one being it's a dark skin experience and one is , more broadly , is it the experience of different ? Any hue , right , and so we're going to talk about that . That's really interesting because there's going to be a spin on that . The other thing is about privilege and how privilege shows up in based on your complexion , and we're going to talk about some of our experience as light skin black women . That for me , the things that come to mind are negative , some negative experiences that I've had living with the skin tone in the black community . So those are the topics that we're going to have . So stick around , because it's going to get kind of deep we're going to have . So stick around , because it's going to get kind of deep . It's going to get kind of deep .
Speaker 3So the first one , on the definition of colorism . You know I'm a deep thinker , I don't stay on the surface . So I'm like is the fact that Leslie and I are having a conversation around colorism ? Is it analogous to white people having a conversation around racism ? Are we kind of the objects of the discriminatory practices when we talk about colorism , or are we not ? And is it even okay and we'd love to get your opinion on this , please comment sure . Is it okay that Leslie and I talk about colorism as if we're the ones who actually are , are feeling the negative effects of colorism , leslie ? What ?
Speaker 3do you think about that ?
Speaker 1And as an American black woman , you know , and I've been described as red bone , light skinned , you know etc .
Speaker 2Light skinned and light-skinned Light yeah .
Speaker 1You know , I absolutely have some ideas about it . I mean , I know that I've been , I've benefited in many ways of being more lighter than some of my darker friends , and there are three siblings , three of us and two of us , and my sister is pretty fair-skinned she's actually lighter than I am and my brother , on the other hand , is darker-skinned , and you don't need to live very long in this country to see how people who are darker the perception and the way that people look at you think about you , have preconceived ideas about you , and it goes everywhere , from intelligence to abilities , to criminality , to stereotypes . You know all of those things . I am 100% sure that I've benefited in some ways , even within my community , from having the complexion that I have .
Speaker 3Les , I just want to stick up in there for a moment because I first want you to first want you to give me your opinion on the definition of colorism whether you think it is a it is defined as a darker skinned black person's , discriminatory practices against a darker skinned Black person , or is it more broadly the fact that there are these designations within our community about color and how that shows up in terms of privilege . So first , what do you think about definition ? Wise ? It's funny .
Speaker 1I think it's yes , and I think it's actually both of those things , oh God make it complicated . No , but I also think that it depends on who's asking the questions .
Speaker 3I'm asking the question damn it , A light-skinned black woman .
Speaker 1Yes , I'm asking the damn question , so , so I really I think it's both .
Understanding Colorism in the Black Community
Speaker 1It really .
Speaker 1I think it covers and it's one of these nebulous things that we might not be able to explain or define specifically . But again , I think it can be both things , because if there are Black people speaking about colorism , very often it is a matter of tone . What tone is she and how is she treated , based on her particular complexion . But then if we're talking about in a larger community where there's mixed races or , you know , white versus black people , then in many cases we're all lumped as one . So you know there's that racism comes in .
Speaker 3You know it's any people of melanated people , but that's racism . Is that colorism ? Does colorism show up ? Does colorism show up in a negative way ? For no , that's not the question I want to ask .
Speaker 1What I want to ask is Right , it's even hard , like defining the question .
Speaker 3Well , well , I guess I guess the question is what are you thinking ? Well , one of the one of the ways that that we can use racism to frame a lot of other things that we talk about , because racism tends to be something that we know kind of well right .
Speaker 2Or we have some strong opinions .
Speaker 1It's pretty well defined .
Speaker 3Correct , correct . So let me try to put it , line it up in terms of how we think about racism . So if we think about racism and we say , for example , all lives matter , right , okay , just think about how that hits you . We're all Black people , mm-hmm , mm-hmm .
Speaker 2Very much the same thing .
Speaker 1Exactly Very much the same thing .
Speaker 3Exactly yes , and so if that is so .
Speaker 1If that's your position , then I tell you that you don't have a clear understanding of the role and colorism in general . If you say , well , we're all Black people , so all of our tones , then you miss and I started to say the subtleties . How melanated you are , presents , but you know what ? It's not even subtle . Yes exactly it's not a subtlety , so that's a really good analogy actually . Thank you , thank you .
Speaker 3Thank you very much .
Speaker 2You hit that , but I don't know , so now we can talk about it .
Speaker 3Well , I guess what I wanted to acknowledge right up front is that you and I may be in a position of talking about something that we really don't know a lot about . Really don't know a lot about because our experience , although we have experience and you talked , you started talking about some of the privilege , and I'll be talking about , and maybe you too , some of the negative experiences that our , our , um complexion has brought into our lives , um that that we don't have experiences that would really identify colorism because we have not lived in a darker skin body .
Speaker 1However , but colorism presents , no matter what hue you are . If one could say that we benefit from having a fairer complexion , that's still colorism , because we're comparing it to someone who is of darker skin , I see that I see that so whereas so the fact , the very fact , that we have a different experience than a darker complected brother you know , then that's a presentation of colorism .
Speaker 3It is , but that ism the ism that we put on words . It words . The connotation is negative .
Speaker 1So if our experiences , we're all positive , let's say Is that what you're getting to ?
Speaker 2Are you saying that ?
Speaker 1if we've only benefited from looking like we do , then we perhaps have not had the full range of experience of colorism .
Speaker 3We absolutely have not , not that we possibly , we absolutely
Navigating Colorism in Identity Formation
Speaker 3. And what I want to kind of acknowledge is should we be the people talking about colorism ? Almost like , how dare we ?
Speaker 1talk about colorism . That reminds me of when they have the youth radiant night cream , you know , and the model is 22 . A wrinkle reducing , you know .
Speaker 2I'm like what Exactly ? But you're right about it , it's a provocative conversation Right .
Speaker 1However and it's not to say that people are not speaking about it , though . You know , there's not a lot of talk because it's almost like using your inside voice for respectability politics . You and I can easily have this conversation , and we have over the years over 50 years . Of course we have , but it's not something that outside of the community is talked about very often .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , I just want to just bring a little bit of historical context , because this is what brought up the whole , made us talk about it when we were speaking about Nannalina yeah , you know , trying to literally brillo the dark off of our elbows and knees and here we're talking about a very fair-skinned woman who had a very brown skin child daughter , nana ruby was brown skin . Nana margaret was fairer than I am right and and she , having been born in the early 1900s , knew the differences and the difference in behaviors and treatments , and what have you of being living in a lighter body than even her own daughter , right ? An interesting point about Nanalina and then we'll move back to the topic is that Nanalina had at least two or three siblings and from the stories that I've heard , at least one of her or two of her siblings have decided to live in a world that's passing , wow . And hence they were rather estranged from her because she did not choose to pass as a white person Wow . But I understand why someone would Sure , you know , I understand where that comes from , right , um , it's .
Speaker 1And you wonder have we really evolved ? Very much , you know , before I um sat down to this podcast , I had on my do-rag , you know , smoothing down my edges , even though I have natural hair . You know , I still wanted to present myself in a way that you know it's . I just thought about that . But yeah , yeah , yeah , you know , tame it , don't , you can look natural you know , tame it don't .
Speaker 3You can look natural , but not too natural . Don't look too wild .
Speaker 1You know it's like wow , wow , yeah , you gotta you still gotta look like you have that good hair as we you know grew up to to want you know , there's a whole line of beauty products supporting , giving us the look of good hair . And then you know , because mom is who she is . Yes , um , we grew up it's like good hair . And then you know because mom is who she is . We grew up , it's like good hair is hair that you have and that the good Lord gave you .
Speaker 2You know whatever the texture is the good hair is having it Is having it , you know so .
Speaker 1but yeah , let's , let's get back . I started going on a tangent , just thinking about the Brillo on my knees .
Speaker 3Oh , wait , wait , wait so . So that was a meander .
Speaker 1That was a tributary .
Speaker 3Okay , another one . That's probably five to my 100 . So you , let's come back , cause you were starting to talk about privilege and you and your , your siblings and so on .
Speaker 1But yeah , I , I mean I certainly have experienced privilege based on my tone . I mean we all know I can get in an elevator and on another floor another woman would come in with a different presentation dark or very dark or brown skin or whatever . And I think the tone of the elevator changes depending on who is in there . Sure , sure and stereotypes and things like that . You know people don't know that my black job . I'm a doctor , you know , but so could my darker skin sister , you know .
Speaker 2Exactly .
Speaker 3I love that . My black job Thank you for the whole , the whole black . Mix with what ? That ? If you , if you , if there , if there's something attractive about your blackness , it must be because you're mixed with mixed with something you know and people will say like where are you from ?
Speaker 1Or you know , not me necessarily , but look what's going on with Kamala . I mean that's a whole other thing . You know it's necessarily . But look what's going on with Kamala . I mean , that's a whole other thing , you know it's like , yeah , that's funny .
Speaker 3So we're going to have an episode soon talking about our dreadlocks , because I used to have locks also , and what I'll mention now is that one of my reasons for starting my locks is because I wanted to not , I wanted it to not be ambiguous as to who I was . Came back from a four month stay in Mexico and I just there was a I don't know whether there were new people at the office or what , but I had a feeling like people were kind of Ooh , who's she , or what is she , or that type of thing . I was like listen , let's , let's not , let's not have any , any ambiguity .
Speaker 2Let me show you what my hair can do yeah , let me show you what my black hair can do , especially being in Mexico .
Speaker 1City . I mean , you could be , yeah , yeah , well , that was , that was that was when I came back . I understand , but I'm saying I could see where they're wondering like is she May ? She Mayan ? Is she mixed with what you know ?
Speaker 3yeah Something , but anyway . So I know we don't have time for a long episode today , but I wanted to mention if this is the right time . Had growing up in Jamaica and in my kind of family as it relates to my color , so I grew up feeling like I was responsible for attraction from men because of my color , like it was because of me . It was a lot . You know songs that I heard that were sung , folk songs , whatever . When I grew up in Jamaica almost blamed Bright Eye Girl or Reddy Bo or whatever for leading men astray .
Speaker 1Unwanted Right For luring men .
Speaker 3And so as a child I always felt this pressure of you know kind of toning myself down , if you will no pun intended and being careful about and I remember things , things like when I sat down .
Speaker 3It was so like if I didn't cross my legs , you know , as a kid , if I didn't , then it's like , I remember , it's like oh , you know right , it was just kind of this crazy and I , and so it I felt I felt pressure to to care about men , like I had to take on the responsibility of them not losing control because of five-year-old me .
Speaker 1Yeah , wow , and you learned that early on , I learned that early on .
Speaker 3I learned that and I think a part of that is still in me in some of what you and I have talked about through the years . I don't know if I've actually said it so clearly to you where some of that may be rooted , but you know , there are just some ways that I don't refer to myself . You know I don't ever refer to myself as sexy , I don't ever feel the need to , but I think some of that comes from this way that I've learned that what's more important and it may be true , I'm not saying to be smart , to be well-educated , to be kind of classy , those are the things to be not sexy Sexy is negative , sexy is and I certainly understand you making the association between your color and physical attractiveness , and here it is I'm sure in Jamaica it's the same how it is .
Speaker 1I know that I got more attention than other people would have , let's say , because of my color , right ? You know , obviously in America we are taught that white is the standard of beauty and the closer you are to it , the more beautiful you're perceived to be .
Speaker 1And then when you get that feedback from people who are attracted to you , you know it really sets up this dynamic dynamic because then when women are by themselves , they start comparing themselves to each other in terms of , well , I may be more attractive . I mean , obviously , if I'm lighter skin , that just means I have a little closer mixture you know , I was closer to being mixed than perhaps that person was , and that's all it means really , but society gives us this kind of feedback of a hierarchy and then we perpetuate it .
Speaker 3We perpetuate it and media and television and entertainment , et cetera , et cetera , yeah , the other thing that I remember about my childhood as it relates to my color , is that I and I'm going to say it this way , cause I think this is , think , this is my truth I was made to feel Whoops , sorry , that's instant karma . I was made to feel that if people wanted to be my friend , it was because of my color . It wasn't because I was funny or smart or don't . You know that ?
Speaker 1that's , that's the only reason why they , they only want to be with you because um , it's funny that you put it that way , because if I were to think about that also , I too grew up not necessarily having heard that , but always wondering if a person is attracted to me because of that , oh , he only wants you because you're light-skinned and he didn't choose .
Speaker 3Like you come with some , like you come with some currency .
Speaker 1I come with some currency .
Speaker 3Yeah , yeah , huh , I've never yeah , but I remember that .
Speaker 1Yeah . Sure and then you wonder . It's like if a person were wealthy , you know , is he really with me because of my money ?
Speaker 3or because he really likes me you know , yeah , it's all where you fit on the privilege scale , right ? Wow , I had to be really smart , because I didn't always feel smart . I didn't always feel smart and I felt like I had to be smart because I didn't want people to think that that is the only reason why I got whatever I got is because of my color . I had to .
Speaker 2Oh , my goodness .
Speaker 3Yeah , I got is because of my color . I had to . I had to . You know , um , uh , I had to be interested in in my education . I needed to just um push myself because otherwise people would only think this of you , that you're only , and you needed to show them that there was something that you were putting to the table . And this is like young , this is in my youth . Wow , what a burden . Yeah , yeah . So I mean yeah . So this kind of goes back to the colors of being .
Speaker 1It reminds me of the dumb blonde analogy , exactly . You know Exactly If you're a natural blonde or a boxed blonde , you still have to bend over backwards in order to show that you're more than .
Speaker 3Yeah , you know this .
Speaker 1I really think that , because we have to close , who would think that we've been talking for as long as we've been talking ?
Speaker 3How long has it been ?
Speaker 1Almost 30 minutes ? No , it's not true , but we need to continue this conversation . We might have a part two of it , because we've only touched on the surface , and one of the things that's true to our brand is that we don't hide things and we don't sugarcoat things . So I think that there's still a lot unsaid about this that would be provocative and worth talking about .
Speaker 3I think
Colorism Discussion on Black Boomer Besties
Speaker 3so too . So if you are listening to us on our podcast platform , please go on over to YouTube and leave a comment what areas would you like to see us deep dive on ? And if we don't have particular experience or expertise , we'll try to find a friend who could bring that perspective to our podcast . And if you are listening to us , watching us on YouTube . Just go on , leave a comment . How do you ?
Speaker 2feel about this topic .
Speaker 3How do you feel about us talking about this topic ? The ?
Speaker 1nerve . Of them , the nerve the nerve , the nerve .
Speaker 3Anyway , all right , les , take us out .
Speaker 1Thank you for listening and stay tuned for more conversation like this , and this has been another episode of Black Boomer . Besties from Brooklyn , brooklyn .