Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn
This is what the world needs now: two free-thinking “seasoned” Black women speaking their truth and inspiring others to do the same. Shaped by 45 years of friendship that began at the prestigious Brooklyn Technical High School through the Ivy League, medical school, marriages, divorces, triumphs, parenting queer children, life-threatening illness and many many amazing adventures. Each week, besties Leslie Osei-Tutu and Angella Fraser will push against boundaries in love, culture, careers, faith, politics and out-dated assumptions about women of a certain age. Remember, you’re never too old to change your mind…or your hair! (but more on that later :-)All views are our own and do not reflect the views of our institution/company. Information provided is not intended to serve as medical advice.
Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn
Listener Comments on our Colorism Conversation
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Listener feedback from our YouTube channel to the Bestie’s previous episode on Colorism was so engaging that Angella and Leslie felt compelled to revisit their conversation and discuss a few of the online responses. They dive deep into some of the language around colorism, for example “fair-skinned”, “good-hair” and the “one-drop rule” and wonder if such terms unintentionally uphold harmful beauty standards.
The listener comments are provocative and lend themselves to an examination of cultural perceptions and how elements of colorism are varied across global contexts. This episode promises to inspire reflection and action, especially for those eager to understand the profound dynamics of race and identity.
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Colorism and Blackness Discussion Analysis
Speaker 1Is there a similar way to look at colorism and who can be allies in dismantling colorism ? I think is what they were asking .
Speaker 2Hey Ant hey Les . How are you , hey red lipstick girl ?
Speaker 1It's good looking .
Speaker 2Listen , you know how competitive I am right . Oh my gosh . Yes , I do . No , I didn't know that about you . So earlier , when you said I'm almost ready , I just have to put on some lipstick , I said I'm going to put on eye makeup . Then You're such a child .
Speaker 1I said I'm , I'm gonna put on eyeliner she's putting on lipstick , I gotta raise her one . You see what I have to put up with . Welcome to a new episode of Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn . I am Angela and that is my bestie Leslie . You see what I have to deal with ? Pray for me .
Speaker 1We started this podcast because we wanted to inspire and give older women permission to think deeply and to act boldly . So if you're an older woman who is inquisitive , or if you love one , or if you want to become one , please hang with us for a little bit . We won't keep you for long , but just enough . You'll be glad you did so .
Speaker 1Today we're going to be talking about some comments that we got , some really , really well , just fresh perspectives on a video that we did , an episode that we did a few weeks ago on colorism , and we wanted to read some of those comments and get some more from you and also share our perspectives on them . They were just really , really deep . We love . We love our listeners . We really do , okay , so I'm going to start . We're going to take turns and I'm going to start . Okay , my screen went away . Okay , here we go . Here we go . By the way , the name of that episode , the title , is Y'all Ain't Black Enough to Talk About Colorism , and I also wanted to talk about what Leslie and I some of the conversation we had about coming up with that name .
Speaker 1Okay , about coming up with that name , okay . So the first comment I'll read is from oh , I need my glasses . It's from Brooklyn . One , one , two . Shout out to Brooklyn . One , one , two . Appreciate you . I love your channel , especially because I'm a I'm a Brooklyn Black boomer . Hey , welcome to the club . I've heard several colorism conversations discussed by light-skinned women and it always leads back to their experiences , as she said fair . And then she crossed it out and said light-skinned women , desirability by men causing conflicts with dark-skinned women is always discussed . Your conversation was mindful , but it was centered around your having light skin . Even using the term fair to describe skin tone . Even using the term fair to describe skin tone , although subliminal , can be problematic . I would love to see this conversation with other voices in the room . We are working on that .
Speaker 2But , les , what do me pause ? And something to think about , because only after I saw that I mean , I've been using the term I typically refer to myself as light-skinned but , um , I never saw any problem with saying fair skinned also , then you know , I love the fact that even at this age I I still learn things . You know and um , and fair is absolutely judgmental . You know , it's on a spectrum .
Speaker 1Yeah , you know , and it's also a , it's a trope . It's a trope , it's a , it's a , it's a linking of better . Yes , yes To light lighter .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah .
Speaker 1No .
Speaker 2Mm Hmm .
Speaker 1Fair Right Mm .
Speaker 2It reminds me of , of good hair . Yeah , fair right that you want good hair . And if you didn't have good hair , you put lye in your hair and burned it up in order for the appearance of what we what they called good hair . Um , and it was only as I grew older that what I realized good hair is the hair that you have on your head , that that you take care of , you know . But but , yeah , thank you for that comment . It really , yeah , we obviously , because we're both light , light-skinned Black women . We only have one perspective , and it's not only , we've only lived one perspective .
Speaker 2We only have lived and experienced one , although you know we also have other , darker skinned people that we can compare our experiences to and we can ascribe the fact that maybe the difference is because of our colors or you know who knows . But man , yeah , we got a lot of comments about that and I love it . Keep it coming . Thank you for that .
Speaker 1Okay , you want the next one . Are you ready , or you want me ?
Speaker 2to I'm not ready , I'm not ready , I'm not ready .
Speaker 1I ain't ready , I ain't able , okay . Next comment is from Michelle Forrester 9605 . Thank you for leaving your comment , michelle says . I'm in my 30s . Love your discussion on colorism . It is totally relevant today , especially in light of current discussions on blackness , like Janet Jackson's comments and opinions on Kamala Harris . I believe everyone is entitled to their opinion . Each Black person's experience of colorism is valid . While acknowledging we live in a society that privileges proximity to whiteness , talking about how colorism affects an individual's quote unquote black experience is important Oftentimes , I feel that this is difficult to discuss , that it is difficult to discuss colorism within blackness and find that when you don't have a definition of blackness that lines up with the one drop rule in America that people give you the side eye . I describe myself as chocolate , or make a foundation shade between Maybelline Fit Me Foundation 355 to 368 , depending on the time of year . That's hilarious . I'm telling you the young folks , I'm so excited , I'm so excited .
Speaker 2Now Michelle Forrester brought up a few really , really good points . One we all know what's coming up in the political sense with Kamala Harris . Can you guys please say Kamala properly ?
Speaker 1Just so that I don't have to Exactly , it's punctuation .
Speaker 2And then , la , I find myself , whenever I hear it , I correct people and I said you mean Kamala , you know , and very often they appreciate . But anyway , the conversation that comes up about her blackness . Is she black enough ? Is she not black ? Has she not acted black ? And you have to prove your black card .
Speaker 2And you know it's obviously it's divisive because what we need to remember is that race , black , white , it's all a construct . It's something that society has made up and things are only . We use the term Black only in its opposition to whiteness . You know , and we also have to recognize that Black and white means so many different things in different cultures , different communities that there is no one meaning of it . And very often , when we have these distraught conversations , we get them wrong or they don't cover all cases . Look at the people in some of the Latin American countries , that Dominican Republic , for example , yeah , brazil , cuba , there are many places where people refer to themselves as white or black and they are way browner , they are way more close to Maybelline Foundation number 368 than we are . But again , you know , it's used as a construct to Organize and separate and categorize people for whatever purposes , be it political or otherwise . Right , you know , it gets really dangerous .
Speaker 2So the incident with Janet Jackson as I understand it , with Janet Jackson as I understand it , unfortunate , and I'll tell you why it's unfortunate . Not just I mean , I I like Janet Jackson , but it has nothing to do with me liking her as an artist . The reason it's unfortunate is because we don't need to be talking about this right now , when we have a month to go before an election . Right , this is not important and it's fluff and this is distracting . Yeah , that's really the reason why it's dominating a lot of the news and what have you . And I don't think that it's an appropriate time to talk about such nonsense as who's black . I don't think that it's an appropriate time to talk about such nonsense as who's Black . Apparently , janet Jackson said I didn't know that Kamala Harris was Black . I thought her father was white .
Speaker 1I believe that's what was said , and not only that , though . Someone you may know the characters a little better than I corrected her someone in her camp , but then he was either reprimanded or let go , and so pretty much her position stands because the person who tried to correct it from her camp I didn't know that . They said that , yeah , you know this is it's either Roland Martin or Karen Hunt that I heard that from . And so basically her position stands because there was a correction and then the correction was retracted , so that even made it just that much more mucky and almost kind of definitive . You know about her point of view .
Speaker 2I don't really understand why . Well , there's many things .
Speaker 1I don't understand about the world these days .
Speaker 2What I was going to say is I don't understand the import of it . It was . It is obvious that her comment was made out of ignorance , and I don't mean that in a pejorative way . I mean ignorance in its definition of meaning not knowing .
Speaker 1Right In the sense .
Speaker 2Yes , Right , in a benign sense . So what I mean is if she was unaware , first of all , why does anybody care ? But if she is unaware , we know why people care . What am I saying ? What planet do I live on ? But if she is unknowing about the parentage of Kamala Harris and the fact that she thought her father was white , when he is not he is a black Jamaican man then why is that news ? Okay , I stand corrected . My bad , my mistake , let's move on . You want to hear Rhythm Nation , you know , but it's big , it's being talked about , right , and yeah .
Speaker 1So you , you , you said . You said a couple of things that I want to highlight . You said that black is a construct , and we know that it is , and sometimes , though asserting that position is , I have a negative reaction to it , because it is both true and it is to me dismissive of the fact that this construct is such a dominant part of our lives , right , both things are true it is just a construct , yeah , but it colors no pun intended every aspect of our lives as um people of african descent and so , but that's why it's there ?
Speaker 2I get it . It's there , I get it so so that it can color .
Speaker 1I get it . That's why it's there , I get it .
Speaker 2So that it can color so much of our , you know , so it can categorize Correct , so it can separate Correct , so it can compare , you know . So a box gets ticked or not ticked . Yeah , Right .
Speaker 1And so to . So , anyway , so I just kind of want to say that that that that truth creates some discomfort in me because it's almost like . It's almost like we can't just say that by itself is like a one-legged table . It doesn't complete a picture . It becomes , therefore , what ? Therefore , just ignore it , therefore , don't give it any weight . Therefore . But then we live in this world where it's such a big part of the separations and judgment and all the things . Anyway , just kind of wanted to say that . The other thing that I thought about was , because you mentioned this idea of being Black , that it's not this , there isn't this universal way to think about it , there isn't a universal understanding of the word , there is not a consistent diasporic use of the word . And I remember what I was looking up , because I couldn't remember her name . I think it's Tyler , I think that's how it's pronounced the young woman who did Water .
Speaker 2That really famous , oh yeah .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , she was on South Africa . From South Africa she was on I want to say it was .
Speaker 1Charlemagne , the Breakfast Club . The Breakfast Club and I saw it , but I it's been a while and I only watched it once . I watched it before there was controversy . I watched it and I saw that when she was asked about something having to do with her being Black , whomever was sitting with her she turned to them and kind of got , and so what that was interpreted as is she's not want to say that she's black , when in fact , in South Africa there are these different definitions of black . You're colored If you're Indian or mixed . There are these different , very clear , and it's not . It's not in a hierarchical way , is my understanding , as it is in Dominican Republic . I wouldn't put Cuba in the list , les , to be honest , because I don't know that Cuba has this , the same kind of caste system , if you will , around color . I don't know if that is as dominant as it is in the Dominican Republic , where they're they have like all these different ?
Speaker 2Probably not probably not because Right . So I just want to pull that out because you know , although I know personally of some Cubans obviously many are here in Florida , in Miami , and someone I work with pretty closely , you know kind of , has told me some stories about how these things work .
Speaker 1Yeah , okay , fair enough
Identity and Blackness in America
Speaker 1. So that what you said reminded me of Tyler , because she was being reprimanded by black folks in America , by , you know , saying or wondering if it was appropriate for her to or not readily saying yes , I'm black , or whatever it's different and we have to kind of understand that too .
Speaker 1There are different cultures and I don't think I don't know this for a fact , but I would . My understanding is that , but it is not necessarily a proximity to whiteness that shows up there . It's really a way of kind of defining versus creating a hierarchy better than worse , than in South Africa , where she was from , but there was some backlash around that blackness .
Speaker 1So , those are two things that um came to mind . I want to go back to Michelle , because um had you finished the points that you wanted to make there . Um , she also talked about . Um , she also talked about if I can't find it .
Speaker 1I will move on . Yeah , there's this kind of another discomfort I feel around . This is is that this , further on the construct thing , this construct of if you have one drop of blood from someone from the the one drop rule rule with African ancestry , then that means that you're black ? That was placed upon us , along with the all of the things that are negative about being of the having African ancestry , and now we've adopted that . Black people have adopted the one drop rule when it was something that was opposed to us .
Speaker 2In other words , I know he's black because his great great grandfather's black . So he has one drop , so we now use it as defining who's black and who's not ? Yeah .
Speaker 1Yeah , and just the ways that we very , very casually , you know , think of Kamala Harris . She's black , she is half black and half .
Speaker 2Southeast Asian .
Speaker 1Southeast .
Speaker 2Asian .
Speaker 1Right and so , but she's black and I believe that myself because I was socialized the same way .
Speaker 2Southeast Asian yeah , south Asian , not Southeast .
Speaker 1Asian , south Asian yeah , I would just say Indian , but or East Indian . So we have now adopted this designation that was placed on us because they wanted their whiteness to be pure and having anything black in them was considered an aberration from a kind of logical thing . It creates some dissonance for me , but I also agree and and and and support , but it's , it's . It's almost like I have to remember .
Speaker 2We'll take them . We'll take them , bring them on .
Speaker 1Come on , get in the fold this full tent , you know thing . So that's something that I wanted to to call out too .
Speaker 2all right , um thank you for that comment .
Speaker 1Yes , thank you , thank you , thank you , michelle . Michelle , all right , I'm going to re .
Speaker 2We have to move a little faster okay , okay , okay , you trying to tell me I talk too much .
Speaker 2lgi bs , that's what she's trying to tell me . Gibbs , maybe 666 ? All right , I never thought much about my hue until I was in college , growing up around family members on my mom's side who passed for white and on my dad's side with dark skin and strong african features and everything in between . I don't remember any conversations about one being better than the other , but when I got to college , being light-skinned got you dances at the party , so suddenly I felt unattractive and that has stayed with me to some degree to the present . The downside of being light-skinned happened to my grandmother Ruth my grandma Ruth when a home health worker verbally abused her about her skin tone . The whole issue is fascinating and I look forward to more discussions on the subject . Thanks , oh , thank you . Thanks for your input .
Speaker 1This is really good . Six , six , six . So , les , what do you think was meant by ? Why was it that when he got dances at the party I don't know if it's a he when this person got dances at the party , they felt unattractive . They suddenly felt unattractive .
Speaker 2Well , no , I think that this person is probably brown , darker skinned . So they said that the downside of uh , excuse me that , only when they got to college . Ah , I see they got the light-skinned people got dances , and I'm assuming that they did not I understand and again . You know , it's like what we were taught . Yes , you know is attractive and yeah .
Speaker 1Yeah , right , right .
Speaker 2You know , nana , lena didn't want her fair skinned grandchildren to have dark marks on them . You know , yeah , unless they spread , maybe they're on your knees and elbows now , but tomorrow they will be on your cheeks . I am going to eradicate that Conspiracy . Jen 85 said I think lighter complexions could possibly be used to fill quotas and then still be undermined in rooms of important conversations . Damn Skippy , that absolutely helps . Well , we got the Black one on team . We ain't going to respect him and treat him like one of us , but we got him so tick , we got that Right , wow .
Speaker 1And how much is it they're not going to respect ? Or is the person who's taking up the seat going to go along to get along ?
Speaker 2And whose fault is ?
Speaker 1that Okay .
Speaker 2Oh , I also think that lighter skinned people may experience more racism because of their complexions , proximity to whiteness , but darker complexions will experience more colorism because of the psychological , social , economic system where a lot of the work-related , network-related and romance , romance related opportunities are not given to us as much I know . So remember , in our talk you contrasted or compared racism and colorism . This person really picked this up and said racism in this regard , because even as light as we are , we still experience racism , as though you know we were any other color . Yet colorism comes in with the other . Wow , that's pretty profound Conspiracy . That is a conspiracy . You need to change your name to Right on Point and Woke 2282 .
Speaker 1No .
Speaker 2I see you 2282 . Yes , wow , I didn't read the rest of the um comments , but oh wait wait , um , and then I think we have to finish after finish hers , please okay , hold on , it's , that's deep .
Speaker 2Thank you , yes , um , white people would feel more intimidated by a light-skinned black person that can pass for white or racially ambiguous , because that is a threat to their job , network and romance opportunities . If a dark-skinned person shows up in those executive spaces , they know we had to work hard and not just float by on our looks but it is still not a threat to their network and romantic opportunities because they still assume the standard of beauty Wow and presumed social class mobility and it's still like a one in one to 15 of a 30 in the executive spaces . Lastly , emmett Till was light-skinned , green eyed child , was a light skinned , green eyed child and again in a white space . Racism caused his demise . He would have been exalted and promoted in a black space , especially when educational opportunities and work opportunities Right Mic drop .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2Wow yeah , mic drop . There's so much there to unpackage so much , and I love how they really explained how racism shows up versus colorism may show up in other , in other ways and still isms .
Speaker 1Right , right , right . Yeah , we won't have time to go into what I was thinking , but I was thinking about how the idea and this kind of comes back to how we entitled our video , our previous episode "'Y'all Ain't Black Enough to Talk About Colorism" the idea that your hue I'm gonna use that word now thank you to the subscriber who used that hue , I think it was Elle Gibbs that can cause so much of kind of the idea that you don't fit in any space . Right , you're not Black enough for Black folks , you're not white enough for white folks . So it is a colorism is at play . But again , I don't think neither of us kind of landed on what is the definition of colorism , and is it something that only kind of denoteshued people are treated compared to lighter-skinned hues ? There is one I like that word hue .
Speaker 1I know I like that too . I like it . I like it very much . There's one I can't find it now , but it oh . No , that's not it . Maybe it was a reply to another one , that it's making it not show up , but it was . Oh , this is what it was and I can't find it . So I'm sorry . I'm not giving a shout out to the person who left the comment , but it had to do with how much lighter hued black folks can be a part of the solution instead of being being uninvolved or being passive , or being passive on the sidelines , if we are not .
Speaker 1And I was like , especially in the context of racism and our expectations of how white folks have a responsibility to address racism Allies . I was like Well , it's something to think about .
Speaker 2Okay , so can you expand on that a little bit more ? So ?
Speaker 1um again , if we frame it in the way racism and it's not that racism applies to , racism is a is a really good way of of getting a group of people , I'm going to say a group of american people to really hone in on nuances , because we we know what racism is , you know , and it's so ubiquitous that exactly I mean .
Speaker 2It's running a whole political system . It's running a whole election . I mean we can get into that in a different conversation but exactly I know exactly why the republican candidate is where he is , is leading or equal in polling to a person who is educated , a former Senator , a former prosecutor , a former governor , et cetera , et cetera . With all of this experience and why the race is neck and neck . And I'll tell you , it really starts with an R and ends with an ism . Right , because when Rism Is it , rism Is it . And I think there's an ace in there somewhere .
Speaker 1But what it is is you know . So many people don't want to admit to the browning of America . Yeah , or you know , I want to feel they want they , they want to remain in discomfort over it .
Speaker 2They want to remain in discomfort over it . And well , yeah , yeah , and can't even imagine what a more unified brown-ish America could look like and could be like . You know , it's like , this is not a pie , it's not like if you take half of it you're gonna be losing something . But we can't imagine so if we demonize a whole group of folks and change laws and and you know , it's just anyway anyway , yeah , so , yeah , so we know what what racism looks like .
Speaker 1Yeah , and even if we don't agree on , you know , even if there is , there is a debate around different aspects .
Speaker 2Is it right ? Are you racist or are you not racist ?
Speaker 1Right , right it still becomes this , this thing that we can Right Right Develop analogies to as we talk about other things ? Right , and so the the . What I think that they were pointing out here is that , in the same way that we think about allyship and how racism is a problem that was created by white folks and they're responsible for dismantling it , because we didn't create it , we can tell you how it affects us , but a part of racism is who holds the power , and so I's . I don't think it's . It's so hard to argue that now that that is kind of one of the key differences between prejudice and discrimination and racism . As my , as I understand it is who has the power .
Speaker 1So I won't go into that I don't think that from a societal perspective , that black people can be racist because of that we don't hold the power . We can say we can have individual , we can have power right , we can be an employer and we can discriminate against someone who's white because we have that power . But outside of that bubble in America that Black person doesn't have the power right , and so I know that's controversial . I would be willing to argue with anyone around this is there a similar way to look at colorism , and who can be allies in dismantling colorism ? I think is what they were asking . Do we play a role ? Do the people who are more privileged in this construct ? Can they play a role in dismantling it , in the same way that we talk about how Wow ?
Speaker 2That's something to think about .
Speaker 1I know you cannot put this back in a box .
Speaker 2All right . So whoever left that comment , we need to hear more from you , because I really like that's really provocative . That's very that that the wheels were turning , yes , and .
Speaker 1I would love to continue that conversation . Yeah , yeah , it's .
Speaker 2It's . I think it might be embedded in some comments .
Speaker 1Yeah , I think they commented on someone else's .
Speaker 2Because we can kind of reach out to them .
Speaker 1We can reach out to them because it's like , yeah , what were you thinking ? Say more views . And so it definitely sparked some interest and we would love to hear from you if you'd like us to talk about it some more . We have been thinking about bringing in some of the members of our friend group who are darker hued than we are and maybe have a broader conversation , but let us know if you'd like us to talk about this in another episode . Thank you for listening . Take us out , les .
Speaker 2This has been another light-skinned episode . Please forgive her . You know I had to . You know , please forgive her . This has been a fair skin episode of Black Boomer . I'm relentless . This has been another episode of Black Boomer . Besties from Brooklyn , brooklyn .