Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn
This is what the world needs now: two free-thinking “seasoned” Black women speaking their truth and inspiring others to do the same. Shaped by 45 years of friendship that began at the prestigious Brooklyn Technical High School through the Ivy League, medical school, marriages, divorces, triumphs, parenting queer children, life-threatening illness and many many amazing adventures. Each week, besties Leslie Osei-Tutu and Angella Fraser will push against boundaries in love, culture, careers, faith, politics and out-dated assumptions about women of a certain age. Remember, you’re never too old to change your mind…or your hair! (but more on that later :-)All views are our own and do not reflect the views of our institution/company. Information provided is not intended to serve as medical advice.
Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn
We’re “a lot”! How to embrace being “extra”
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The episode discusses the complexities and beauty of being "a lot" in our lives and relationships. Angella and Leslie share personal experiences and insights into how this trait can be perceived both positively and negatively.
• Introduction to the theme of being “a lot”
• Exploration of personal definitions and meanings of being “a lot”
• Sharing experiences with friends and family regarding being “a lot”
• Conversations on the impact of being a lot in romantic relationships
• Reflections on societal views of “a lotness”
• Closing thoughts on embracing one’s identity and inviting feedback
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Introduction and Theme Overview
Speaker 1Hey .
Speaker 2Ange .
Speaker 1Hey Les , How's it going ?
Speaker 2It's going really well . What a great day I'm having .
Speaker 1Good , Good for you . I'm happy for you . My day's pretty great too .
Speaker 2No particular reason , but you and I had a nice chat earlier today . We laughed , and this and that Long chat yes all the things it started in the bathroom .
Speaker 1It just kind of followed us around in the kitchen .
Speaker 2Then we added a friend to it .
Speaker 1Then we added a friend .
Speaker 2Talking to him was good , hilarious , and then we got back . Hilarious .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , Listen and that's what made us think about what we were going to record today .
Speaker 2Yes , but see , all of our conversations are real and organic , so they do start out . That's why the whole podcast started , because we started , like you know what ? These are provocative things that we're talking about , and I think that people will find it amusing , informative , fun , whatever .
Speaker 1So anyway , all right , welcome , welcome everyone .
Speaker 2Hi , welcome to another episode of Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn .
Speaker 1Hey , I'm Angela and that is Leslie , my best friend of almost 40 years . We're just two intellectually curious older Black women . What that means is that we like to go deep . We have been this way as friends for decades and decades , and we like to push against the boundaries , push against the edges , challenge the status quo , and we've just gotten more intense about it as we have aged . And so here we are . Today we're going to be talking about being a lot and what that means .
Speaker 2I'm laughing because it comes up in our conversations with each other and with other people A lot .
Speaker 1We're a lot and that's okay . We just want to be really clear up front that we think a lotness is okay . We're going to talk about what it means to us . I hope that you share with us what it means to you .
Speaker 2In other words , are you a lot ?
Speaker 1Are you a lot ? Are you a lot Or- ?
Speaker 2Or how much are you ?
Speaker 1How do you feel about allotness in general ? Like , how do you feel about it ? So we're having a two-way conversation , me and Leslie , and then there is another friend from high school . Listen , if you haven't realized it already , our circle-tight friend group , high school people . We have friends outside of high school , but I'm just saying this is a recurring thing . We're speaking to a friend from high school , so this is someone .
Speaker 2Nearly 50 years ago . We've known him forever Half a century and so .
Speaker 1Leslie is closer to him than I and so they talk more often , and somehow she thought that he had agreed to be on our podcast , right ?
Speaker 2I really did .
Speaker 1Not necessarily today , but just you know that at some point he was going to come on to our podcast right . So she tells me it's locked in .
Speaker 2We got him , let's get him on the phone , let's talk about it .
Speaker 1Let's get him on the phone . So , needless to say , he said he never agreed .
Speaker 2He said he never agreed . He said he never agreed . I'm an introvert and that's not my thing . And essentially , Les , where the hell did you get it that I now , what I conceded was that I said he reluctantly agreed , but I thought he agreed .
Speaker 1She did say that and that's kind of how we started thinking about the way that we are a lot and how it shows up , how it shows up in friendships and relationships and all the things , because I did start strong-arming him like , yes , you did , and come on , and this is what you can talk about .
Speaker 2And I'm like Les , if you want to get the man to be a guest on your podcast , simmer down now and take him .
Speaker 1Ellen , you're an introvert , so my producer here .
Speaker 2she jumped in and was like okay , look , we're not going to tell you what to talk about . You come to us . You're funny , you're this .
Speaker 1So you guys may meet him and you'll hear from him . But anyway it got us thinking about all the ways that we are a lot and I had been asked recently someone who's getting to know me , what do I mean when I say that I'm a lot ? And I'm going to say what I mean . I'll start with when I say I'm a lot , it is not a self-deprecating term at all .
Speaker 1It's just making it clear that this is how I show up , and if that causes you to repel , recoil , run , I'm probably not for you .
Speaker 1I'm probably not for you , and it may be that I'm not for you in a relationship . It may be that I'm not for you . I'm probably not for you , and it may be that I'm not for you in a relationship . It may be that I'm not for you as a colleague . It may be that I'm not for you in some kind of collaboration , but it could mean that I am for you if you're looking for a champion , if you're looking for somebody who can see you , hear you , promote you , all the things . So that is how that's kind of the framing of it . When I say that I'm a lot , I mean that I have a lot of layers . I have a way of seeing the world which includes changing the way that I see the world , and so you may see me with some perspectives five years ago that I no longer have , and that I'm vehemently against the way that I was five years ago because I'm in constant change and that can be a lot because of the unpredictability of it .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , and it could be a lot , because some people may associate change , change in point of view , change in opinions , as flip-flopping , which I completely . It's like really have heard me say this . My faith practice demands that I'm in constant change , demands that I'm trying to better myself , to move towards a more ideal person .
Speaker 2This is not where you have to end up and stay and constantly thinking when I think of you being a lot and I do , that's why you love me and I do . What I think about you is one the very many layers . But I also think that you're very complex in that you have a scientific mind , you were trained in engineering , so you have that technical aspect to you , but you're so much of a philosophical you're thinking , you're like your emotional , you know . So you have a lot more , I think , of a breadth of personality than I do .
Speaker 2Okay , you know , and it's funny that you said that you don't see it as self-deprecating at all . If I were to describe , when I say you know , because I say this to my friend Rick a lot , I say , am I a lot ? He's like absolutely . And I'm like , wait a minute , but really , no , really Am I a lot . And I've always said to myself I would never have characterized myself as being a lot because I did look at it as more of a negative , like overbearing , judgmental , kind of scary , you know , just too much , too much , a lot as in too much . So I think it can be looked at in many ways . So when I asked for examples .
Speaker 2You know he did tell me and you've told me and other people have told me , my son has told me . You know it's like yeah , mom , you're a lot . And what it is . I think it's the fact that I don't stay in one place . I'm not satisfied , like I have a bucket list , you know . So I am not just satisfied often with status quo . I kind of see possibilities and trying to attain different things and higher levels all the time .
Speaker 1You know , so I'm always coming up with a plan .
Speaker 2Well , I went to medical school at 36 . So it was like I wasn't necessarily happy with where I was . So I'm like , okay , I went to medical school at 36 . So it was like I wasn't necessarily happy with where I was . Yeah , so I'm like , ok , I can change , I can do my . Some people may say that's a lot . You were a teacher , you had a good job , a good position , well paid , et cetera . Why do you need to make any more ?
Speaker 1Right .
Speaker 2Right
What It Means to Be “A Lot”
Speaker 2. You know , another example , please .
Speaker 2Yes , that one , you know another example , please , yes , that one , you know . Here I am at this point in my life . You know I'm a physician , I'm pretty stable and comfortable and all , but it's like I have this whole other life that I want to live . I want to leave the state , I'm planning to leave the country in some capacity , I'm in a new relationship and there are so many more things that it's like , oh , the possibilities are endless . You know I don't see status quo as acceptable . There's always more . I mean , we have the capacity to live our best lives in whatever way that we want to see it , and I know from my life experience that there's so many abilities that I have that I may not have realized or whatever . You know , it's like I'll try anything once , that kind of thing .
Speaker 1It's like that bucket list is still calling me Okay so this may be edited out , so I'm not sure , but I'm going to ask you for something that we talked about more like earlier today . Oh , I see . As an example no just to kind of oh there's several , then there's several .
Speaker 2We had a long conversation today .
Speaker 1But give the example about the park as an example of a lotness , because that's how it shows up kind of in the day to day and why I love , I love your a lotness and why sometimes it's just a lot for a lot of for other people . So can you give that example ?
Speaker 2My friend took me to the park and it turned out that it was a special thing for him to bring me to the park because this is a park of peace , meditation , contemplation . It was like his happy , relaxed , calm place . So I learned later that by him taking me there it was a special moment . You know that he was gifting me . Let's just say you know it was meaningful to him . So when I went to the park I love parks , so I went to the park . I'm embarrassed to even say now . I'm embarrassed to even say now . And while we're sitting on the bench , you know we're just looking , listening to the bird . It was a beautiful , light spring day , right , and I said you know .
Speaker 1Now , if she said whatever she says , it's because she's been thinking about it .
Speaker 2So picture she's sitting on the park bench .
Speaker 1She's not chilling right .
Speaker 2So you know , first of all , I always have to have food . So the first thing I'm like I says you know , do you ever bring a blanket and sit on the grass ? You know , now we're on the bench . Do you ever sit on the grass ?
Speaker 2He's like no , I sit right here on this bench , same bench , and I'm like you know , this would be a great spot because it was by the brook and it was water and a little footbridge . And I said , you know we should go and get some food and we can sit on the bench and it can turn into a picnic and I'm like , and I know you have your speaker with you so we can listen to music . So , in other words , I'm moving from this contemplative , quiet , intimate moment and I want to turn it into a full on picnic , A full on production with music .
Speaker 2And we fought about it all the way home Like I'll never bring your hats to my special place again . It was like I desecrated the space and I said to him you know , my pushback was that like what do you mean ? It's a park , parks are great for picnics and this , and that I'm sure you have a blanket in your car . What can I sit on ? Why am I sitting on a bench ? It's like , when I can sit on the grass . And it turned out later that I missed the whole point . Oh my God , I don't think we've ever been back to that park .
Speaker 1He goes , but he doesn't take you anymore so .
Speaker 2So the other thing is this same friend of mine . Right , he's an artist , his drawings are just beautiful , he has this way of doing line art , um , and he does it while he's doodling , you know . But it's so pretty that I've taken one of his pieces and I framed it , you know , and I put it in a frame or whatever . So , and I said to him you know , can't leave it alone .
Speaker 2I said I just can't . I just can't , you know . And I said you know these pieces would look because he's renovating his home . I'm like these pieces would look so nice if they'd blown up and professionally framed . I said do you ever think of that ? No , he said no and I'm like okay , I'm going to leave this one alone Because he does his drawings for himself . I said you ever consider , would you like to see this one alone because he does his drawings for himself ? I say you ever consider , would you like to see this on your walls or whatever ? He's like no , you know .
Speaker 2So I don't know , I just think that I don't know , I just try to . I guess it's hard for me to just be . You know , I'm trying to just take things to the next level . You know , I think that elevating something , you know it's hard for me to just be . You know , I'm trying to just take things to the next level . You know , I think that elevating something , you know , it's like why wouldn't you put your beautiful artwork in a frame ?
Speaker 2You know where you can look at it , but it's in a portfolio that's under the couch , you know that just sits while he's watching television and starts drawing . It's not that thing for him , it's not .
Speaker 1It's not , and I think what happens sometimes in our lotness , what we may be communicating to people is how they show up is not enough , right Like why wouldn't you make a picnic out in the park , why ?
Speaker 2wouldn't you put art to be beautiful , art to be framed ? You know , when he told me he did not have a bucket list .
Speaker 1I couldn't believe it .
Speaker 2I didn't know that it was possible for people not to have something that they're moving toward all the time , something to check off . The next thing after you attain this one . Right , I just didn't know it was a thing . So , at my old age of 63 , I'm learning .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , I'm learning . Yeah , because this thing that we're trying to get to in that next thing and I think we may have talked about it on the podcast , definitely we've talked about it Is that you're seeking something that they may have already achieved . Right , they may already achieve that sense of fulfillment and contentment .
Speaker 2Completeness .
Speaker 1And it's here , and it's in what they have and it's not in what's coming next .
Speaker 2And that's what it is . That's what it is , because I couldn't believe it . I keep asking like , are you sure ? Like there's nothing , nothing . And he says no , oh my gosh , you know I'm very happy where I am right now .
Speaker 1Right .
Speaker 2And then what makes me wonder and this is really more personal is that you wonder if a person like that can make space for someone like you .
Speaker 1Okay .
Speaker 1You know , I have some listen I first want to share about . I want to give a shout out to Ismael . This is someone that I met . It's been I don't know it's been nine , 10 months , maybe , I don't know somewhere around there and , um , I recently got a text from him . Um , he's a listener , he's also a podcaster , um , but he's not actively doing that now and I want to give him a shout out because he reminded me just 15 minutes ago that some people actually see you just how you are with all of the allotness , and they dig it .
Speaker 1Right , and so this idea of whether it is a negative or a positive term . It's kind of up to you . It's kind of up to you how you want to see it Right and when you were talking . What came to mind for me was my last relationship and the way that it ended , which I really had a hard time because I didn't expect it . But the way that it ended and you and I were talking about this earlier too is because he recognized that I was too much for him .
Speaker 2Yeah , and I just did not accept that . Yeah , go ahead .
Speaker 1And where I am now is that he was absolutely right . He was absolutely right , and what that might have meant for me , in becoming the person who may have fit better with him , was a it was . It would be a curtailing , a subduing of myself , right which I now have an opportunity , in a new relationship , to be . All of those , all of the ways that I am without feeling like oh am I pushing too much ?
Speaker 1Am I , you know ? And so his recognition of who he was and where although you know I'm exciting as fuck , you know , when he realized that it was going into talk about marriage and so on and it was going to be too much be really grateful because I still consider him a friend , a good friend , that he knew himself and he sized up the situation before I could , and because I was able to kind of see him eventually as someone who wasn't it wasn't trying to harm , and you know all the things he could have done differently .
Speaker 2All those things are still true , but at the end of the day , this is better than if we try to make something work that would have kind of led to some inauthenticity . So yeah , I did , for example , and I don't even remember the exact details , but when he would say like oh , maybe you know , I don't like the way that you present yourself in public or in public , you know social media or whatever .
Speaker 1Blue hair Blue hair .
Speaker 2Let's just say you know , because that's who you are and blue hair doesn't appeal to me , you know . You thought perhaps that he was just misunderstanding why the blue hair or the need for the blue hair , or whatever .
Speaker 1Or whether it was really that important to me .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah , you know , I think we thought he misunderstood your priorities , right .
Speaker 1Right , yes , that's a good way of putting it , but .
Speaker 2I think in retrospect and with wisdom , and you have to step away from these things a little bit more too , absolutely .
Speaker 1This is the changing part With time , yeah .
Speaker 2Is that you stop not just looking at others , you start looking in the mirror and you start saying well , is there any veracity in that ? You know , did it make sense and I love the way that you concluded that you know what I was not the right person for him .
Speaker 1And while .
Speaker 2I loved him . He recognized it before I did , and perhaps he didn't realize or know how to come across , or whatever . But the fact that he did you a favor and me a favor too ?
Speaker 1Yeah , and I'm really grateful for it because I think sometimes love can lead to you diminishing and I firmly believe that . You know , in a relationship each person are their individual thing . But I think the relationship it's its own thing . It's a third thing Separate from the two . The relationship is an entity , you mean like you them , and then the relationship Correct .
Speaker 1I agree that there are three things right , and so I think that I would have been , because of the love that I felt I would have been willing to that I felt I would have been willing to turn down some things , which I do think is okay to do in a relationship , right ? I do think it's okay to make some adjustments for the third thing but you're still yourself .
Speaker 1But in this third thing , for example , just to make it really practical , I could be a certain way turn some things down down . Not do all the things in the park for a relationship , but when you and I are together we could be the picnic do you ? Know what I mean we are the picnic . I'm the music , she's the wine and she wouldn't be the one to think of it . I'd be the food too .
Speaker 2I'd be the food you're always I'd be the food too . Yeah , I'd be the food . You're always food . You would be the wine and the food .
Speaker 1So we can still be ourselves and show up that way in other contexts . But you know , the relationship may need different things , right ? Different parts of you turn down parts of you . Whatever turn down parts of you whatever , but it's not that you just become this thing and you cut off anyone who you can be all the other things with . That's kind of the story .
Speaker 2And what I misinterpreted with the park situation specifically was that I did not realize what was actually happening there . Sometimes , in my too muchness or a lotness , I need to step back and evaluate what's going on more clearly rather than inject my ah and this and this and oh , you need this and we got to add this and candle , candle , fern , fern and this , and you know it's like sometimes there's a place for everything you know .
Speaker 1Listen , we got to explain the candle , candle fern fern Because that's another hilarious . We've had so many things and they become part of our lives . They do , they're like little and they capture a whole story within them , within the terms , they capture just a whole story .
Speaker 2So Candle , candle , fern , fern comes from you wanted to say something , our good friend who decidedly is a lot , let's just say that she's a lot . And I've known her since we were 10 years old .
Speaker 1So we had a fabulous 40th year Birthday party . Like group birthday party at my fabulous home that I used to live in in New Jersey , right ? So we're planning this big . I mean like it was big , it was huge . People came from far and wide , oh , far and wide . We had luminaires up the driveway all the things glass , and so our friend Andy just let me tell you I'm laughing just thinking of it . She's a whole production .
Speaker 2She is and we're so grateful .
Speaker 1I remember when we were planning and Les was like maybe we can have some balloons and she was like absolutely , this is not a children's party .
Speaker 2She's like balloons are for children . We are adults , we must have candles . So she came in and she was like yes , she walked into the space , now she's decorating and she's like candle , candle fern fern Cand , candle , candle fern fern , candle candle fern fern , candle , candle fern fern .
Speaker 1So whenever anyone is over the top . It's candle , candle fern fern . It was an amazing party .
Speaker 2And we love that about her All the things because . I'm telling you , we could have done it without her . We could have done that without her . We would have had balloons in the damn space .
Speaker 1We would have had . It would have been so such a diminished version of who we are , who we really are . Who we really are and it was fabulous Thanks .
Speaker 2Andy , we heart you .
Speaker 1Thank you so so much . She gave us little albums , so we have pictures . Maybe we'll put some . Yes , we'll put some pictures for our Patreon subscribers Anyway . So that's the candle , candle , fern , fern . But this whole idea of a lotness and I think I love the way that you pointed out , liz , that you were seeing it as more of a negative I didn't always feel this as a positive right .
Speaker 1Like I've changed my view on how I see myself and how I have self-compassion , and you know the things about myself that I want to keep , that I really think is enduring and is beautiful about me , and I want to recognize the things about you and your allotness that I wouldn't change for five years a gazillion dollars . These things about you and the way that you see people , and it's just one of the beautiful
Personal Stories of “A Lotness”
Speaker 1parts of who you are , and so it's yeah , you said something that was special before , and I think that this is the sum total of it .
Speaker 2I think that , however it is that we are , we want those who we care about to see us , and you've not known Ismael very well and very long but from what he wrote to you and the way that he described you , you could tell that he sees you , and I think that we all know what it feels like when people we care about see us and we also know what it feels like when they don't .
Speaker 1Right , right right .
Speaker 2And when we're seen , I might be a lot , and you know , the picnic with the sitting on the grass and whatever may not have been the scene , but if I as C-E-N-E that he wanted at the time , but if he sees that I'm not coming from a malicious place I'm not trying to , you know , alter him or this , or you know , my heart is whole and open then I think that because he understood that you can't get too mad at it . This is just who she is and I understand from that experience and from the art experience and from many experiences , when to dial it up , when to dial it back and to really discern more what's really going on and what people are trying to say . Yeah , yeah , you know .
Speaker 1I . This came up too in our earlier conversation about how , how much the end of that relationship really became a gift that I can only see in retrospect , right , I can only see in retrospect because I feel like I have access to a new relationship where my allotness is celebrated is , you know , creates a sense of pride , and they want more of it . It's not this thing that I have to turn down , and so authenticity gets overused .
Speaker 2It's one of those words that gets overused .
Speaker 1But that's what's coming to mind now , because you know you may have a tendency to want to change . You know fundamentally who you are Right and when I talk about change , I'm not talking about that . I'm not talking about if I could put it in an example . I'm not talking about you know , you being a compassionate person and then you not being a compassionate person , because you know whatever I'm talking about . You had these ideas about things that were like this , and then you kind of open up , open up , open up your ideas your ideas about them .
Speaker 1And I think we have ideas about ourselves . Everyone has an idea about each other , about themselves , and that can be kind of opening and opening and opening .
Speaker 2Yes , and I think that's the point of Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn podcast , because we are realizing and seeing . We've seen in ourselves over the years that we used to be perhaps like this and we have expanded the way that we think about things .
Speaker 2You know I said to you earlier today , relaying a conversation I had a day or so ago , that I never want to be in a position where I lie to myself . It's not a matter of what I say to other people , perhaps , although my word is important to me , but I don't want to live a life where I'm telling myself things that are not true and trying to believe things that are not true .
Speaker 2And sometimes a lot of that takes courage , but I mentioned that to you earlier today . I see that in other people and you know honesty and truthfulness is important but it's also painful . It's a lot to ask , to be honest with yourself , what really happened in that relationship . What really did you say to that person ? You know to turn them off , or to you know whatever , or how are ?
Speaker 1you really presenting yourself at work or to you know whatever , or how are you really presenting ?
Speaker 2yourself at work .
Speaker 2I remember I said to you recently that sometimes I walk into the OR and after , you know , I listen to myself and I'm like I don't even want to hear from myself anymore , let alone the poor staff . You know it's like Les . You know I complain why are there no syringes in the drawer ? Did anybody fill this thing ? And like , like for months I would complain that there's a certain soap dispenser behind the desk that is always empty , like it's the most natural thing . Obviously , we wash our hands all the time . To wash your hands in your recovery room , go to the sink and then there's no soap or then there's no paper and I'm like all right , Liz , stop it .
Speaker 2Just stop it , go someplace else . You know I really stopped . So I don't want to lie to myself and say you know , oh , really I'm not that person , Liz .
Speaker 1I'm not bossy , I'm just helpful .
Speaker 2Sometimes you are that guy .
Speaker 1And that's okay . Sometimes you are that guy . Oh , that's funny yeah .
Speaker 2But I guess I'm a lot . Yeah , but I'm loving and people that work , they really know my heart , they know I care about them , they know I care about my patients and when I make these decisions it's not because I'm having a bad day or I'm rushed or busy , because I want things to go smoothly and thank God they do .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 1Yes , all of that .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 1So , the question is , are you a lot and what does that mean to you ?
Speaker 2Is that ?
Speaker 1something that you kind of hit yourself over the head with . Is that your Judge , judy , or is that your ? Oh , my God , I love , I'm a lot .
Speaker 2I am a lot , lot , yes , and I love that . You love my a lotness and you see , me Check in on yourself .
Speaker 1Leave some comments . Let us know how you're feeling about this conversation and whether people have been telling you that you're a lot , and whether that's making you try to not be or whether it's like , yeah , don't do that Don't do , that Don't do that . Don't do that . No , think about it though . Think about it Like . What does that mean ? And like Leslie was saying about the picnic , you know , there is some things that she would turn down because what she missed was the moment that he was trying to invite her into .
Speaker 1He was inviting her into something and she came in and took over . So you can examine things like that , you know , but it's not about . Okay , be a lot with . Go to the picnic with your bestie .
Speaker 2Yeah , and then we can do all the stops . We can have the champagne and the cheese and the grapes and the basket and the this . You know , I have all those things . We'll be ready , we can be ready . The ant repellent , oh my gosh Sunscreen . This is my life with her , Anyway this has been another episode of Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn .