Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn
Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn
The Only One in the Room: Navigating Predominantly White Spaces
Leslie shares a recent experience of being the only Black person at two separate events—a Staten Island sports bar and a New Jersey fundraiser with over 300 attendees. This prompts a revealing conversation about racial segregation in America and the imbalance of cultural immersion between white and Black Americans.
• Black Americans constantly "swim in white waters" while white Americans rarely need to navigate Black spaces
• The myth of equivalence in self-segregation ignores power dynamics and demographic realities
• White people with only one Black friend often make that person the spokesperson for all Black people
• Discomfort in conversations about race should be embraced rather than avoided as it's where growth happens
• Black professionals often face different expectations and must "over-perform" to receive equal respect
• Discomfort in conversations about race should be embraced rather than avoided as it's where growth happens
https://onbeing.org/programs/robin-diangelo-and-resmaa-menakem-towards-a-framework-for-repair/
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Hey Ant.
Speaker 2:Hey Les, How's it going?
Speaker 1:It's going, it's going. Actually, it's not a complaint.
Speaker 2:It's not.
Speaker 1:I am rejoicing in the absence of a toothache, toothache.
Speaker 2:I went to the dentist today and I told her that you shared that with me and she's like yes. Indeed yes, indeed.
Speaker 1:Yes, indeed hey everybody.
Speaker 2:We are back for another episode of Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn. I'm Angella and that's Leslie, my best friend of almost 50 years. You know who we are. We are two free-thinking 60-something-year-old Black women and we go deep in conversations and we like to share joy, we like to share new perspectives, and so and these conversations come out of just stuff that Les and I talk about on the regular right, like in the car driving to work, Les, it's that kind of thing.
Speaker 2:So here's what happened the other day. The other day, leslie went to two events. I think they were either on the same weekend or yeah, they were on the same weekend. Same weekend Saturday and Sunday, and she noticed that she was one of, or the only black person in the room of hundreds of people, and so we started talking about that of being the only in these rooms being in predominantly white spaces, and so she had some opinions, I had some opinions and we're like no, stop talking about it, we're going to record.
Speaker 1:So we're going to bring it to you. Fresh. We're bringing it to you. Fresh is in a band, a popular band that plays all around the city and other places. So I had the opportunity to go listen to his band in Staten Island.
Speaker 1:I live in New Jersey, so I went to the. It was. It turned out it was a sports bar with a stage and what have you packed place. So I got there in the evening and what was a little odd was that when I walked in, someone it's a sports bar, right and someone said can I help you? And I said no, you know, I'm meeting a bunch of friends here. And he said so, do you see them? And I looked around and then I saw them and I sat down. So as the evening went on, I kind of looked around and I would say there were a couple hundred people in the bar. You know, some at the bar, some sitting at tables listening to the band and drinking and whatever. And I said you know what? I am the only melanated person in this building. I said it was a revelation. I said you know, I'm the only black person in this place. Now, I live in the Northeast, I'm not in Iowa or someplace where there are fewer populations
Speaker 1:or percentages of black folks. So I thought, here I am in New York City on a Saturday night in a bar and the only person Okay, tuck that away. I had a great time, the band was great and it was lovely getting together with my friends, and all of that Okay. The next day I went to a fundraiser for a close friend's social service organization. This was in New Jersey and it was very well attended. There were well over 300 people, probably about, I'd say, 330 people, with headliner, comedians and whatever. It was a great event.
Speaker 1:I looked around and again, when I thought I was the only Black person in the entire place, I actually saw one other, another African-American woman. So there were two of us out of 300 and plus people. And it got me to thinking. I said, ange, you know, I don't often think of it like that, but we are a very segregated country. And I said I wonder if have many friends who are white and people not just work acquaintances, because that's usually where people find know people of the other race. But I have very close friends, people that I love, actually, who are white and I said I wonder if I'm their only black friend. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:You know, and she also said well, it's really the same thing on both sides.
Speaker 1:And I said oh, that is what I said. I said you know, but if you think about it, in our spaces also, they're usually only black people and only white, so it's the same on both sides.
Speaker 2:Yeah, people, and only white.
Speaker 1:So it's the same on both sides. Yeah, and I and I heard the car screech.
Speaker 2:You're like les. One of the reasons why I hit the brakes on that is because we often say things like that and then we keep going and and we don't investigate is that really true? If it's true, why is it true? Are the why's the same right? We just kind of are okay with saying that, moving on thinking about a few examples, move on, and those are the things that I like to dig at.
Speaker 2:Those are the things that I like to dig at those are the things that I like to you know, it's like really, because those are the things and ways of thinking that happen in your life, that that if you, that you don't spend time thinking about, it's just like, oh, that's the way it is.
Speaker 1:And it's like is it really? Is that a false equivalence? Does it really?
Speaker 2:have to right and why. Why is it so? And I so. So it was that, because it was one of those things.
Speaker 1:I had to have this conversation that I hadn't anticipated, but then I stopped. I said you know what this seems like a podcast episode, so let's stop talking about it it's.
Speaker 2:It's funny because it just hit on so many things I thought about when I was at Penn. Um, that year I was this is the University of Pennsylvania. It was, um, uh, the year that I enrolled, that was 1980. Of the, I think, 8 000 people in the undergraduate class that year, there were 400 black people and I remembered so that's five percent. That's 5%.
Speaker 2:Yeah, a small number and it's a huge, huge university. And I remember going to an on-campus event I don't remember what was going on or whatever and I heard someone who was white talk about the fact that black, the black students self-segregate in the lunchroom, like we only sit with other black people in the lunchroom, and I thought it was really odd because Even back then, at 18 years old, even back then you did what you did with me.
Speaker 2:I've always been that way and I thought it was odd, because you know something like that and on the surface that may seem true, but when you think about it, why? If this is a kind of an observable fact, then why is it so there were so few of us? Right, one thing is that there were so few of us For us to find some sense of normalcy and belonging and, you know, some commonality in this huge university. Was that is that? Is that wrong is? Should that be? Look, and and the person who said this saw this as a negative by the way, let me just say that, right, it was a critical thing, it was yes it was a critical comment right um um.
Speaker 2:Who was she eating? Lunch with I I, I don't know, because this was not even this wasn't. Yeah, this wasn't at the lunch.
Speaker 2:This was some conversation yeah it was the group setting and someone stood up and said this right, okay, so that was one thing, right. I mean, you know, in this, in this large university, undergrad, you have so few people. I know, in my school, I went to the engineering school there were five black engineering students in our year, right, and we were not in the same. I did mechanical, you know, there was civil and whatever, biomedical, and all of that. Anyway, there were five of us. So the one, all of that, anyway, there were five of us. So, so the one thing is that. Another thing is that it's so easy to see, like you wouldn't be able to look in a room and say, oh, why are all those people from Iowa sitting together? You know, because they happen to be white and they were their self segregating, because it's only people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah so so being being um a something that is observable, being a color or whatever, or gender that is observable, you can say something like that and never have to self-reflect, you'd never get to self-reflect.
Speaker 2:You could say look at what they're doing right. And the other thing that I thought of is kind of like what you said who were they sitting with, and was it our responsibility to go and find them? Was it our responsibility to kind of, hey, we should be sitting together here. Could it just be a group of friends? And did you scrutinize any other groups there to say, oh, how come they're only sitting with that?
Speaker 1:it was a group of friends christians sitting together.
Speaker 2:It was a group of friends sitting together right and so it became this thing, that um, and as I remember it was kind of this thing uh, around, you know um, um ways of creating community at, on campus and so on. It was like a dig and so that kind of fired in my brain because I remember that as being so like because this is me coming from Brooklyn, but not only coming from Brooklyn, brooklyn being very, very diverse, coming from a high school, brooklyn tech, that was very diverse and I never really saw it as, oh, look at you guys doing this, that is weird.
Speaker 1:So anyway, I and right in our days in Brooklyn Tech, we were eating lunch with everybody.
Speaker 2:Eating lunch with everybody.
Speaker 1:You know it was everybody in our, Whether you were in the football team or on the track team or on the swim team Okay Group or in AP Calc it was. Yes, it's, it's true. The science head said over here the people who you know used to sit in the center. Yeah, yeah, it was not, wow yeah.
Speaker 2:So I just really wanted to kind of noodle at that a little bit, this idea about whether there is equivalence even if you can say, yeah, you are the only, you only have one white friend that, um, in america we are a minority, right, um, we are global majority, um, but in america we are a minority group, and so we live in, and just think of it, in circles. There's a big circle, yeah, of white. There's a smaller circle of black people, african, descendedcended people. We swim in, we swim in.
Speaker 1:We swim in the white water, exactly. And how can we not be touched by the water that we swim in?
Speaker 2:We just are, and they don't have to come into our world, right, but we are always in their world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're always in their world.
Speaker 2:We're always in their world. There are very few places that we can go, because it's on TV, it's the movie choices that we have, it's the you know anytime. It's like three black movies. Oh, everything is equal, really.
Speaker 1:Why? Why the office is so black Right black people have money.
Speaker 2:Look at these movie stars. Okay, there are 10 of them. It's like what?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah but that reminds me that reminds me of the conversation that I brought up. Also, you know, as a result of this I said now, I think that if more people, if more white people had intimacies with black people, their black friends, whole new idea about who we are yeah what we stand for and not just the oh, but you're one of the good ones right, but that idea I had a colleague, um, who said to me um, he and I felt free enough to speak about issues of of race and and culture and religion and things like that, and I said something about being a black woman, in addition to being a black woman physician in addition to being a black woman, physician, anesthesiologist, et cetera.
Speaker 1:And he said oh, but I don't see you as black. Oh, I don't see you as black, and I'm like really so then you don't see me, because how could you say that you not in his case, but in other cases with my friends? How could you say you love me if you and I think in general, when others stand to characterize people that they don't really know? That's why so many get it wrong. That's right, exactly that's why so many get it wrong.
Speaker 1:Because if this, person does not see me as a black woman physician, then he has no idea what it took for me to become and who I had to become, to become a black woman physician, right, right, and then the role, perhaps, that I live in, my household, in my family, in my community, and how that might differ from his role in his community.
Speaker 2:Right and all the things. Yeah, all the things. It's so interesting because we were talking about the fact that we are likely the only Black friend, that some of our white friends have Right, and a long time ago we had a conversation about the idea of a single story, right. And so you know you see a group of people through a single lens, right, Whatever you see people who live in the country or in Iowa, or whatever you see people through this single lens.
Speaker 2:And so whenever you only have one, you tend to see just that that person becomes the definition of that group of people right and that person's opinions become the whole group's opinions, and then too on that one person. It's a lot of pressure yeah, it's a lot of pressure and guess what they get things wrong. I let me see if I want to talk about this I do talk about this.
Speaker 2:I haven't heard the story I, I um have a friend, um, who has a friend who is white and they had an experience at um their adopted daughter, who is black, to get their hair braided Right and they did not have a good experience. It was painful, the process itself was painful, there was tears and my friend, I think, misinterpreted what happened, right um, she misinterpreted, she, she, she interpreted it and told her white friend it might have been because the, the child's mother, was white and they had some animosity towards the child because the child is white right I mean the child is black child because the child is white.
Speaker 1:Right, I mean the child is black, and then the parent is white.
Speaker 2:My point of view, this other black person was who is used to getting their hair done on a regular by people, who is in the hair industry.
Speaker 1:But we grew up with getting our hair done being very painful. I remember having to sleep in those doggone pink rollers. Exactly and every morning I woke up with my head indented and headaches Pink rollers, and then we all have the experience of the hot combs and the burns and the this and getting your hair braided and it's too tight and you're like People telling you your hair is too hard and that's why they have to pull so hard.
Speaker 2:People telling you it's hitting you with a comb because you move when they're trying to get a straight part Hair in black culture hair is pain Hair is a pain Getting your hair done. The culture of hair has a pain getting your hair done the culture of hair yeah, has a pain element and so I might have explained something very differently to this white friend.
Speaker 2:if she had me as her friend also, and she has this perspective now, I would think which is unfortunate, right, Because she might have left with this perspective that this is what happens and this is why and for me, because hair culture is such a part of being a Black woman, I always wonder that's why it came to me and this happened a couple years ago, that's why it came to me right now is I always wonder to what extent that black child has been negatively affected because this kind of single or this person, your black person to go to your black person to go to.
Speaker 2:The one might have given you that impression and of course she knows she speaks. She speaks of, she speaks of the black experience. That that might've been a very kind of detrimental thing in that, in that experience, so or she could have been correct in her assessment of that particular time If you have no other things to measure it by Exactly. If you don't know anybody, if you just have that.
Speaker 1:One black friend didn't Charlie.
Speaker 2:Brown have that one black friend.
Speaker 1:Didn't charlie brown have that one black friend? Um, but when?
Speaker 2:you only have the one at least he wasn't the dirty one or else, or or stymie wasn't stymie the the black leslie, how old are you?
Speaker 1:oh my gosh wasn't daffy duck, black leslie no. So what I'm saying is you can't help, no, I can't help myself, no.
Speaker 2:So what I'm saying is you can't help yourself. No, I can't help myself.
Speaker 1:I can't, but what I'm saying is it comes back to what that episode and what we talk about in terms of diversifying your community and your experiences.
Speaker 1:And I know that diversity is a bad word these days because some crazy people made it a bad word, but we only stand to benefit when we have the ability to get other perspectives and not just our own narrow focus Right. And I just remember when I was at the function with the large, with a large number of people, the fundraiser, a lady was behind me and she says, oh, how are you affiliated here? And I said, oh, I'm good friends with my good friend and colleague such and such. He's on the board here. And she's like, oh, okay, and what do you do? Clean up the place.
Speaker 2:And I said oh no, I don't do anything.
Speaker 1:I'm just a guest here and she says no, no't do anything. I'm just a guest here and she says no, no.
Speaker 2:What do you do?
Speaker 1:for work. And I said why do you ask? And she says oh, because you mentioned that he was your colleague. And I said oh, okay.
Speaker 2:We're both physicians and you know whatever and you could have been whatever, you could have been in the mailroom or you could have been, I don't know. You know that stuff makes me really like not.
Speaker 1:Well, I was going to say I could have been in the mailroom, but not at that price point of the ticket. Those weren't mail, it wasn't a room full of mailroom employees.
Speaker 2:They wouldn't have spent their money that way, but anyway.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it just makes me think. And I live in. I started to say we, but I live in the Northeast, I'm in New Jersey, I'm in New York, I grew up in New York and whatever. We are such a segregated population, self-segregating, a segregated population Self-segregating. Most of our churches, sunday morning, they've always said you know, that's the most segregated time of day Sunday mornings when people go to their church and people go to theirs Although I'm a member of a church that's very diverse.
Speaker 2:You know, and I was, but no more.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So I don't know. I think that people it's their loss.
Speaker 2:It's their loss. I think it is, and I think that-.
Speaker 1:And it can become ours, but I think it's their loss, you know.
Speaker 2:Okay, so I have a podcast episode that I've had in a you know, in my browser on my phone. Don't judge me, but I have, like I don't know, maybe 180 something windows in my phone. Do not judge me. And this podcast episode it's an unbeing um podcast episode. It's probably like in the like in the 10th position on my phone and I keep it because I've shared it with many people.
Speaker 2:I've shared it with um, one of my white friends actually, and um, I sometimes we, we've been a little, a lot distant, um, uh, just, I usually hear from her and I don't, and I've noticed some things like I've reached out a few times and I really do need to see if she's okay, but anyway it's about that episode.
Speaker 1:Lose my number, but I do.
Speaker 2:But I do. I do want to mention it here because I sent it to you, because when you told me that this happened, I was like Les, you got to listen to this and see how you feel about this episode. It's on being with Chris Sittipit you may be familiar with that one and the episode it went. The original air date was July 9th of 2020. I've had it for a while and it was the name of it is Towards a Framework for Repair, and it was.
Speaker 2:The two guests were Robin D'Angelo and Risma Manikim and they basically talk about ways that what is in America around race's. The one that coined the, the term white fragility. It was her book of that name that that idea of um and this is this is me putting my my understanding of it is the idea that the how this issue makes white people feel should, the fact that white people are uncomfortable having these types of conversations and and talking about race without us being in it saying, oh, this is what race is. I'm like you. Y'all created this. You don't need us to figure it out and you don't need us to always kind of put ourselves in a position of deep, deep, deep, deep, deep vulnerability, deep harm, deep, deep fear and all of that by coming to us to say oh, tell us what we're doing wrong.
Speaker 2:You know, and so they had a really, really interesting conversation and the part that I really wanted Leslie to listen to.
Speaker 2:the whole episode is really fascinating, but one of the things that Resmaa Mannequin talked about and I really have tried to do it since I learned about this how we have to, as Black people, get comfortable with leaving our black friends, loved ones, our white friends and loved ones in the place of discomfort, before kind of running and saying oh, I didn't. Or avoiding conversations because we don't want them to feel bad it is that feeling bad.
Speaker 2:It is that discomfort that change happens in that place and if we're so quick to want to kind of pacify, you know, I'm wondering if that's kind of what was showing up for my friend who's like oh, don't feel, you know, it's not you, it's them, or I'm not going to tell you this.
Speaker 2:You know, a friend gave me a book once and it was a book about a young black man being um killed by police and the fall out from that and you know it, it became a movie and I avoided the movie on purpose because that could be my sons. You know, I, I, there are certain things for for some people it's entertainment, for other people, like me, as a mother of black sons.
Speaker 1:It's like I don't want to see that on the screen?
Speaker 2:I don't. And so she gave me this book, as you know, as a way of acknowledging that I'm listening. You know, this is a story that really I took the time to listen to this thing, but for me I had to let her know that, her giving me that as a hey. You know, like when your cat or dog brings you a rodent, like, hey, look what I got. It's like, look what I brought you. And I did, because we're really close. I told her that I couldn't even open the book. Wow.
Speaker 2:I couldn't even open the book because it created so much angst and feelings of yeah.
Speaker 1:Did she understand that? Do you believe that?
Speaker 2:your reaction? I think she probably did, but I think also what might have happened. And um, um, they talk about this. Robin d'angelo and um risma talked about the fact that when you feel like there's nothing you can do, I can never get this right yeah.
Speaker 1:So then you just shrink and you just shrink nothing.
Speaker 2:I'll do the best I can, or I do nothing, right, right, and that's how it perpetuates, yeah.
Speaker 1:That reminds me of during one of the recent political campaigns and when I voiced from my heart that I was afraid of this person being put into high office and my white friend said, like how ridiculous, what do you have to fear? And I literally had to go deep and explain and just off the top of my head I really listed some of those reasons why I was viscerally afraid afraid in my heart and in my body, and one I don't think they understood it and maybe they did, but it might have been so painful for them that they really either didn't mention it to me anymore or really they downplayed it. And I walked away from that and I've mentioned it a few times because I still feel it. How could you love me and downplay my fears and my?
Speaker 2:feelings.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know if you tell me you're afraid of heights. Whether or not that's my personal fear. If I love you, I have to understand and I'm not going to expose you to things that make you so afraid, or try to protect you. I'll try to protect you from it. You know if I care about you. Otherwise, let's go to the top of the Empire State Building. Come on, it's nothing. Come on.
Speaker 2:And walk on the glass. It's nothing. You're being silly. That's not real. You know it's a level of sensitivity.
Speaker 1:I think that one, the fact that we can't have these discussions and they turn into what people say I don't want to have an argument or I don't, you're not supposed to talk about that, you're not supposed to. That's why we've been talking about it, or two separate sides have been talking about it. Some people more than others have been talking about it, but separately, for hundreds of years, yeah, yeah. And now we're not allowed to talk about it. Because now it's being erased from websites. It's being closed from history From research, everything.
Speaker 2:You can't read it.
Speaker 1:The books are being taken away.
Speaker 2:Museums are being wiped whitewashed. Yeah, it's real, guys, it's real.
Speaker 1:It's real, guys, it's real. It's that level of discomfort and it is said we don't want people to feel uncomfortable about it, and hence no one will hear it, no one is allowed to talk about it in good company.
Speaker 2:Yet that discomfort and pain is the greatest agent of change. It's the only time that we can really exercise that muscle. You know how painful exercise is the first couple of weeks when you yeah, you want to stop right, you get sore.
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, but then after that the muscles get used to it Right and you kind of like how you look and you can have that conversation without that nauseous feeling in your stomach, mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and this idea that it is your discomfort is paramount. Yeah, someone else's discomfort, someone else's pain, someone else's loss, someone else's you know's loss, someone else's you know um, just um tragedy is not as important as you, being uncomfortable talking about it uncomfortable because you're the center of the universe.
Speaker 1:So often my issues are life and death. Yeah, I mean, I can name names. I can get stories and this. And that I mean I grew up where my parent had to give me the talk and I had to give my black sons and nephews the talk, or the one you were talking about, um your friend in the hospital?
Speaker 2:yeah right, and what could have happened? To her if you weren't there and how they were expecting to, how they expected her to die.
Speaker 1:That was what they expected, because that's what happens. Black people yeah, they get these ailments and they die.
Speaker 2:And we're, we, don't we? It's not a it's not a big thing, it's not anything that we, we scramble to to avoid. It's just what happens.
Speaker 1:And who could understand that experience and the fear that I had visiting her in the hospital without my explaining that to them, if that's not, their life. They go to hospitals to get healed. Exactly, they go to hospitals and the doctor takes care of them and I've noticed it's the same type of thing when I did my medical missionary work around the world where hospitals it's not the same as traditional hospitals. Here in the States People were afraid to go to hospitals because that's where people went to die.
Speaker 1:You know, and here we are where this hospital was mimicking third world, what we call third world hospitals and mindsets.
Speaker 2:You know people in this particular hospital, I suppose, is where someone with her pathology went to die, you know and that wasn't very unusual well in my world, so yeah, not on my watch yeah yeah, you know yeah, so, anyway, interesting isn't it? Yeah, and, and you know, it's like, what's the takeaway? The takeaway that I would say, and then you can go less, is like, um, be curious about those things that we say and we, those things that we believe are so. Just because, just because it's so, it's easy to kind of move on. Yeah, that is, and then you move on.
Speaker 1:It's like is that really?
Speaker 2:so is that really so? I gotta tell you one quick thing, right like I was in a meeting when I was in corporate and someone who was black who was in HR said well, you know, managers hire people who look like that. And I'm like, really Black managers, don't? I mean? And I say that because black managers have to think, if I hire this person who looks like me, they're going to think.
Speaker 1:I only hired her because she's black. And then we get into this whole thing in our head about this. And so they don't, they are more likely to say they don't, because they have to show that they are more fair and balanced and whatever it doesn't, it's's like that's not really what, are you what?
Speaker 2:and so always kind of those things that just, oh, this is so because it's so, or this is so because it's so in the white world. You always have to think about that twice thrice because it's typically not so or the reasons that it's so, are very different and so just kind of grouping them.
Speaker 1:The same is not really valid so that's my long takeaway and I'll give you an example also that I just thought about in in medicine, you know, because black physicians are are so few a number, we often, when we encounter, um, white patients, we may have to over perform or over explain, wow, or it's almost as though you're expected.
Speaker 2:Yes, to show your credentials and show you know why you, whatever you know and, of course, many times I've been, you know, mistaken.
Speaker 1:Oh, nurse, oh this can you?
Speaker 2:get the doctor you know that type of thing right right right, but it's always there, and and my colleague who said he doesn't see me as black.
Speaker 1:well then, how could he understand why I'm interacting with this patient in the way that I am?
Speaker 2:Yes, right, right, right. Or why his patient may see you differently or may not give you the same level of respect as they give him. Yeah, or why there's less tolerance.
Speaker 1:You know, in my world for certain things than in other people's.
Speaker 2:I mean, we can go on and on. You know how much time we got, how much time we got, you're the timekeeper, but anyway no, we're here Just something to think about. And I thought I found it very interesting.
Speaker 1:Did you guys find this interesting?
Speaker 2:I hope so Give us some comments.
Speaker 1:Let us know.
Speaker 2:Let's hear from you. Let's hear from you. You're always going to get food for thought here at the Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn.
Speaker 1:There you go, brooklyn, all right have a good night, Bye guys.
