Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn
Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn
How Rushing Past Pain Sabotages True Joy
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The Besties talk about joy A LOT! And want to make sure that people are getting its true meaning, and what it’s not, to stay clear of all the toxic positivity out there.
Toxic positivity occurs when people don't allow themselves or others to experience hard emotions, quickly trying to move them to a "positive" place.
Joy requires going through difficulty and sometimes involves setting boundaries or doing hard things for long-term fulfillment, and boy is it worth it!
Links to references:
The Messy Middle | Pastor Desiree Elder | FCBCNYC
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Hey Ange, Hello Les, how are you? Hello again, because I just saw you so good.
Speaker 2:So, good, so good. I was able to touch you for real. For real, this summer has been, you know, full of Les. It's been a very Leslie-ful summer.
Speaker 1:Leslie-ful. I like that In this country and abroad In this country and abroad, and there's more to follow. Yeah, this has been good, this has been good. Good to see you again. Thank you, so welcome to another episode of Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn.
Speaker 2:I'm Anjala and that's Leslie, my best friend of almost 50 years. We are two free-thinking 60-something-year-old Black women and we have decided to be more bold and joyful in our lives and we invite you to join us. Oh, today we're going to be talking about something. Listen, there are a few things that converge for me and I'm like Les, this is the topic this week. You know, we're always talking about joy on this podcast, on this channel. Joy is one of the things that we have committed to. Joy is one of the things that we have committed to. I've written a book which talks about joy. I use joy. I refer to myself as a joy strategist. I'll talk to you a little bit more about that later. But there is something that kind of bugs me about the way that people think about joy and happiness and how it can become kind of. The term is like toxic, a toxic positivity, like when you're, if there's joy, there shouldn't be pain and sorrow and grief and all of those things.
Speaker 1:Like they can't coexist, like they shouldn't coexist like they shouldn't coexist, like joy is all the way here, but then there's nothing else.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and any other feelings are considered invalid. So it was bugging me. I also heard this broadcast on Sunday, two Sundays ago, and it was a sermon that I heard and, uh it, it just started to converge into this idea. So you know, Les, she's like, yes, let's do it. And so we're doing it. So we're going to be talking about joy and toxic positivity today.
Speaker 1:I'm feeling rather happy but also joyful right now, because I had a pretty important meeting today. Yes, you did, and it really signified like an end of one chapter, beginning of another chapter. I'm moving into another stage in my life. I'm happy. I'm at the beginning of another chapter. I'm moving into another stage in my life. I'm happy, I'm feeling joyful and I'm just Ready to go.
Speaker 2:Ready to go. It's called we're Too Old for this, and it's a book that gets us to think about joy in a new way, and I want to read a little bit about what joy is and what joy isn't. You'll see why joy is so different than happy.
Speaker 2:So, I'll just read a few lines from my book. It says desire more joy. As you read further, and from now on I encourage you to hold this expanded view of joy. Joy is a deep well of fulfillment. It is more firm, foundational and fierce than happiness. It's a body of work dedicated to your authenticity, the real you, your liberation, the free you, and courage, the actualized you. And the last thing I'll say here, because it goes on it is a tree that keeps you rooted through life's challenges.
Speaker 2:This is what joy means in the way that Leslie and I talk about it, and I hope you can understand how different that is from happy, which is wonderful. We're not knocking happy. We never want to knock happy. We just want to call out the difference between joy and happiness, because joy requires that we go through difficulty, because sometimes joy will say that relationship isn't right for you. Joy will say you need to set some boundaries. Joy will say do this hard thing so that you can live in a place of joy for an extended period of time, of joy for an extended period of time.
Speaker 2:So joy is this very kind of serious concept, even though it's this beautiful, light word that we throw around all the time. I wanted to just give it its due in this conversation. Exactly, and it's respect, right. So I mentioned that we want to talk about toxic positivity, and what that really means is that you understand what positivity is. Everything is happy. It becomes toxic when you do not allow people to experience the hard parts of life. When you quickly want to move someone who is in grief to, you know everything happens for a purpose. He's in a better place.
Speaker 2:He's in a better place and you don't want to to. It's almost like you're doing it for yourself. You don't want to experience the negative emotion, so you're telling the person who's grieving to move on quickly from this. The state right and it's an overdoing of that.
Speaker 1:But what I also think when I because I'm guilty of it we all are you know wanting your someone you care deeply about. I don't want to see my loved ones in pain. Yes, so when I see them in pain, I do, I make comments, hoping that they get through that painful period onto the next thing. So consoling them through it, right.
Speaker 2:So I wonder, because some of the words that I heard you say were I wanted them.
Speaker 1:I don't want them to feel I and.
Speaker 2:I don't want to see my.
Speaker 1:you know, it's me, me, me, You're right.
Speaker 2:Yes, and so we're hoping that this episode will get you to start thinking about these things a little more deeply. If you remember I think it was last week, maybe it was the week before our episode it was about friendships and Leslie shared with you a conversation that we had where I was not considering the timing Right, and that is a part of how you can manage. This toxic positivity thing is for you to think about timing. It may be an appropriate thing to say, but when? When is the right time to say it Is the time to say it. When you just heard from a friend that you know their parent is ill or that they just lost the job, is that the first thing you say to them? Probably, you know. It's just that. I just want you to be sensitive to these things and to think a little more deeply, because you know, leslie and I are deep thinkers over here.
Speaker 1:We don't overthink a little more deeply than others listen one of us who is influencing the other. You got to catch me on a good day for me to get really deep. I love being superficial. You know how our current president said I love the uneducated. You know, I love being a superficial thinker.
Speaker 2:Well, I wanted to do a couple of things right. I want you to think about the fact that. Think about a situation, les, that you might have been in, where you did exactly what you just described you wanted to console, and the way you consoled was to put a positive spin on it. Can you think of any situation like that? Actually, you don't have to go deep.
Speaker 1:I'm kind of convicted in one respect, and either you were in the car or I was speaking to. You were in the car. You were in the car when this happened and I love the fact that you make complicated things so crystal clear to me. Okay, and I think I'm open to it because I was telling you about a friend who was somewhat estranged from someone close to them, right, and he describes how I think they may have had an postures or attempts to reconcile, but the other person really wasn't having it. So, you know, he kind of walked away and said oh well, you know, whatever it's lost. I, on the other hand, I said to him, I said why don't you be the better guy? Why don't you be the bigger person?
Speaker 1:That's a great example, and you let's say that you're a little deeper than they are, or you're a little, you know, more in tuned with your feelings, or whatever, or why don't you set yourself up as an example? Why don't you continue to make efforts at reconciliation and be the bigger guy and put it behind you, keep going back, keep going back. You know, and I thought that that was such a reasonable thing to advise. You know, but you then turned it around, as you always do. For goodness sake, why don't you just let me sit in it, Just let me sit in my wisdom?
Speaker 2:Just let me live.
Speaker 1:Just let me live for God's sakes. And here you are. But Les, on the other hand, here you are.
Speaker 2:Consider this.
Speaker 1:Consider this and I'm like too soon. I was just patting myself on the back for the breakthrough.
Speaker 2:Isn't that good, ash, isn't that good? Hi, friend, it's Angella. I hope you're enjoying the episode. Listen.
Speaker 2:Did you know that the Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn podcast began when I decided that I wanted to do something bold and joyful in my life? I help older women create more joyful living and more joy-filled money-making in their next chapter. So if you're at what I call the what's next phase of life empty nesting, retiring, perhaps divorcing and you want some help, you know that joy is something that you seek. Allow me to be your coach. You can book a free consultation with me. You will get a free copy of my ebook we're too old for this and you'll see whether my coaching is just right for you. I will leave a link below to make it super easy for you, and I look forward to speaking with you. Oh, I forgot to mention that I'm only taking on five new clients each quarter. That, my dear, is a joy boundary that I've set for myself and I'm going to be teaching you oh, so many boundaries that you can create in your life to protect your joy. Go ahead and schedule that consultation and we'll talk more about it.
Speaker 1:So what you said to me, though, first of all, my friend, he wasn't having it. He was like you know, I'm done, I'm done. But what you also said to me and I was presenting this to you as I think he was being a little rigid and unreasonable, yeah, yeah. And what you said to me is, like Les, in what you're saying and suggesting to him, in your effort, you're discounting his feelings, you're discounting the amount of emotional distress that he was put through in this incident by you, with this positivity and everything's great and you'll be the bigger guy and whatever. You are not validating his hurt or his pain by asking him to so quickly give it up and abandon it.
Speaker 1:And it was so crystal clear with that that here I am. You know the ah, put a bright, you know you could be the bigger guy. Oh, get over it, it's okay, it's okay. But you know what he's telling me. It's not okay with me, right? And I wasn't really respecting that by telling him to abandon that. It's almost like when someone hurts you and hurts you, let's just say, and they say to you get over it. I said, I'm sorry, get over it. You know, I'm sorry, get over it.
Speaker 1:You know, it's like can we just move on?
Speaker 2:Can we?
Speaker 1:move on. You know, we see that in society a lot. We see it in culture, we see it in racism, we see it in other things. You know it's like wait a minute, no, we can't. If you tell me I must move on and get over it, then you don't understand the impact in my pain. And when you said that to me, doggone it I was in such a lively conversation. I was so good, but I really paused and I understood completely what you meant.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I no longer pushed for him to make an effort like that. Instead, I turned and turned my posture into. You know, I understand how this must be. Yeah, yeah, exactly yeah how this must be.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, you know the thing is it's like this is not like, uh, about you know, being perfect and getting it right all the time. It's, it's really just an awareness that we're we're creating here for you, hopefully, um, to read the room a little bit, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1:to kind of um, be more mindful of the how others may take your words, right, that's what it is, because remember, and when we're, when I'll say for speak for myself, when I'm reading the room, right, unfortunately I'm coming through leslie lens, yeah it's me centered and yeah, do that's what human beings do.
Speaker 2:It's a, it's almost like a protect, a protective thing. You know what I mean. To think that we're the center, but but we know that that we're not. And, depending on who we're working with, some of this learning that I got to kind of move me to understanding these ideas a little bit better is through my children, right. In particular, I remember two things.
Speaker 2:I'll just mention one of them where they had to remind me that the way I experienced and kind of got over my divorce from their dad is very different than their experience and how they got over it, their experience and how they got over it. So me kind of getting to the point where I've moved on, or you know, I'm kind of seeing life without him and so on and so on, and moving in that way and speaking in that way and expecting that they're going to kind of have that same, that's that transformation, in the same timing as me. It was like not good parenting, right there, right To, to, to, not. In essence, what I was doing is pulling them along to where I was instead of allowing them to grieve the loss of the life that we had.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah, you know what I mean, and you, know, I went through that exact same thing with Omari recently where I had to step back and I say, not only did I leave a marriage, but Omari lost a father figure to him.
Speaker 2:Right, you know a significant person in his life, exactly you know, and it didn't even occur to me. You know a significant person in his life, exactly, you know, and it didn't even occur to me, you know to consider how he was experiencing my loss.
Speaker 1:Pain, grief you know Right, yeah, right yeah, and I love the fact that he was there for me and he never said you know, mom, I'm hurting too. You know that's really not who he is, but I had to come to that realization and I apologized to him.
Speaker 2:Ooh Les, I love that. Well, I couldn't know how to say I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:every decade or so, all right, what year is this? What year is this? All right, I'm good.
Speaker 2:I'm good You've already told on yourself that you don't apologize with ease.
Speaker 1:No, I don't, I don't.
Speaker 2:You've already told on yourself. So, I wanted to kind of say that some of what the toxic positivity does is it creates shame, right, because you're telling the other person that there's something wrong with them. Their emotions don't count.
Speaker 1:It causes guilt.
Speaker 2:Well, what's wrong with me if I can't get over it? Right, Something must be wrong with me if I can't get over it Right. Something must be wrong with me and, as I said before, it's those words that you offer with good intent. They, a lot of times, are to help you, not to help the other person because you're ready to move on you figure like I'm a drop this positive bomb on them and it's ready to move on.
Speaker 2:You figure like I'm going to drop this positive bomb on them and it's going to take away, and then I, and then I don't have to be there for them, then I don't have to console them, because but then I get to check it off my list. That's the better thing.
Speaker 1:I know I can speak for myself and that's not my motivation. What it is is I don't want loved ones suffering and in pain. Yeah, yeah you know, so if you do this, this, this, yeah, things will get better. Why? Don't you get over it so that you can feel joyful again.
Speaker 2:Right, but I'm going to tilt that a little bit because we're not far off.
Speaker 1:Right, one time was a little sinister.
Speaker 2:You're saying that you want.
Speaker 1:Okay, wow.
Speaker 2:You're saying that you want to help them and so on. Consider that it is a sell for you. Listen.
Speaker 1:No, I understand. You're right about that. Listen to this.
Speaker 2:We know that these positive emotions feel good, right. We also know that negative emotions are also a part of life and they are also helpful. We were given feelings of fear so we could run away from a bear that's chasing us. Our body, our physiology responds to fear, right. Negative emotions are for our good, and to like not or to want us to move out of it too quickly, to want people to move out of those feelings too quickly, is where we run into trouble, because what we're communicating really is that when you feel that way, there's something wrong with you.
Speaker 2:Yes, that is what I mean, and that creates a sense of well, why can't I get over this? I should be over this already. You know what I mean. Something's wrong with me. This person took that time. They go into hiding. I don't want people to see me sad.
Speaker 1:So I'm going to go over there and be sad by myself when what they?
Speaker 2:really want is friendship and community. You know what I'm saying. So I don't mean that the intention is bad. Not at all. I don't mean that the intention is bad. I mean that the effect on the other person. You should consider that that could be. And here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to give you all some alternatives, okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but before you do that, what I just want to say is that this is something that you know that I've struggled with and this is something that you've tried to help me get through. You know, I am this very black and white. I want to. If something negative or bad happens and as life, you know, does I want to let me hurry up through it so I can get to the other end. I know that things happen for a reason. I do know that I always learn from adverse circumstances that I've been. I know that. I also know what it feels like to look at something in the rear view mirror and have that pain and angst behind you. But you even recently encouraged me. You know it's like, but you even recently encouraged me. You know it's like don't try to rush through. You got to what. What is the words that you say? You got to feel the feels. You got to feels the feels, and I don't like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't like that.
Speaker 2:So I wouldn't mind being a little numb through and then it's like ta-da here I am. Life is good again.
Speaker 2:I'm serious about that. I know you are. You know I struggle with that. Don't sit in. And I'm going to quote what Pastor Desiree, elder of FCBC, said. This isn't a term that she coined, but she used it in her sermon. We'll put a link to it. The messy middle right, the. You need to sit sometimes instead of rushing, because you're rushing and you're missing the lesson of the messy middle. You don't like the mess, I get that.
Speaker 2:The mess isn't something that you like the mess is something that you respect and allow it to do its work. And allow it to do its work Right. And so the allowing people to feel these feels causes them to not suppress right, to not hide, to not pretend to not, you know, want to make you happy. You can imagine, as a parent, how many times your children are withholding things or not wanting to upset you. Or you know you have this, this, this kind of um, it's, it's a privilege of your position that you have as a parent with your children that you're like I'm just, you're just you, but to them you're like, right under God, you know what I mean. And so a lot of the times they will withhold because they don't want you to be upset or they want you know, they see that you're in a happy place and they want, they don't want to disturb that and those types of things.
Speaker 1:So again, that's another thing I've experienced. It's just awareness.
Speaker 2:Exactly, it's just an awareness, so I'm going to um, so I'm listening From it. Could?
Speaker 1:be worse to I'm here no matter what? Wait, wait, wait, wait. So those from. They're so cliched and so often used that it's hard to even change the language to convey more of the message that you're pointing us to. Yeah, we have to pay it and thank you for this. This is helpful, so go ahead, you're welcome.
Speaker 2:Yes, and this is the thing. These are the nuances, right. When we talk about joy, these nuances matter Every time, like Leslie just said, you feel, oh, it's just that thing, right. You see something posted on Facebook and someone is going through a rough time and you immediately want to say something positive. Just give it a minute. Just think about what different could you say, for example, from things happen for a reason to. That must be really hard.
Speaker 1:Why is it that I've said all the froms, I've never said the twos?
Speaker 2:What the heck, Leslie? Okay, so let me continue.
Speaker 1:Sorry, go ahead. I know this is serious. I cannot. I'm just feeling convicted. We all are Les. Go ahead. I know this is serious, I cannot. Before I get out, I'm just feeling convicted.
Speaker 2:It's we all are. Les, listen, listen this again awareness is the start of every change right. From failure isn't an option to your feelings are valid. I don't know if you can hear we're getting a thunderstorm here yeah.
Speaker 2:From happiness is a choice. I've seen that hashtag Happiness is a choice. To the middle is messy. It's little shifts. It's these little shifts and I think, like the key thing is to just hold a second, uncenter yourself. And I'm not saying you do this on purpose, I'm saying that if you, if you consider that it will help you, you Okay, right, okay, uncenter yourself and say how can I be there for this person and not kind of layer this way too soon positivity on them? How can you give them a moment to sit in what they're feeling?
Speaker 1:So yeah, or not even positivity. I remember. See, now I can't even tell someone who's suffered you know will announce a death or what have you. Yeah, I can't say I'm sorry for your loss anymore because you we had that conversation about that and it's like, well, I am sorry if I feel bad, that they and you're like there, you go again. This is not about them. You are expressing your sorrow, right, yes, when they need something that would fulfill and fortify them, they don't want to know about my sorrow. At that time they got their own.
Speaker 2:They don't want to know what you feel sorry about. Yes, it's. How can you help?
Speaker 1:them. So you know what I say.
Speaker 2:Instead, if there's anything, I can do for you, please let me know. I'm just saying, you see, this is. Maybe I'll send her this you just put a sad, a sad emoji my mom would say you take my joke, you take my joke. This is, this is, this is not. It's not a leslie. You can get me to laugh through anything. That's not a Leslie you can get me to laugh through anything. That's all I have to say you can get me to laugh through anything I know.
Speaker 1:And this is more serious than I'm making- it. It's just that I'm laughing because there's a little level of discomfort in me.
Speaker 2:Yes, of course, of course, and you know this, this idea. I'm glad you brought up the one about how we respond to people's sorrow, online, typically, or in person. Yeah, you know my condolences. There's nothing wrong with saying I'm sorry for your loss, yeah, might it be a little more meaningful because you're sorry for the loss, and then you kind of move on right, think about what you might say to God, what you might say to God on their behalf, and say that instead, like you wouldn't say to God, oh, I'm sorry for their loss, you would say God, please bless them, help them, encourage them through their time of trouble.
Speaker 1:Right, that Wow.
Speaker 2:Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Because those are true things that we do feel, absolutely, absolutely. We are just not using the words or tapping into the real emotion behind those absolutely I'm sorry that's helpful. You know what listen. You're a keeper, you're gonna do, it's not working doggone keeper I told you you were off probation for a reason I am, I'm, I'm so locked in now, yeah, but that's real, thank you.
Speaker 2:It is, you're welcome and, again, it's a process. We're hoping that by bringing this to your attention, you can make these small shifts that make all the difference. And there you make these shifts for a period of time and it becomes your new normal. These shifts for a period of time and it becomes your new normal. I don't say, I don't say you know, I'm sorry, I don't use that language anymore, I don't do it anymore. I used to do it all the time. I don't do it anymore because it became a habit.
Speaker 1:Right, it became a habit and I think it's so habitual that people actually will probably hear it like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So it just becomes part of the noise when it's not. That's not your intent, that's not where your heart is Exactly and that's not what you want to convey.
Speaker 2:That's a great point Exactly. Can I just mention something?
Speaker 1:about this messy middle part. I know and you know people who know me and my personality I'm not only am I black and white, but I am, I guess, impatient. In many ways I'm very results oriented yes, results oriented. So what makes me uncomfortable on the journey is that I want to get there and I want to then live there. So I want to move from here to here and forget all that fluff in the middle, because I'm action oriented and I want to see results quickly. I mean, that could be why I'm an anesthesiologist, we're in the OR and I want to see an effect of any medication I give right now. I'm not an internist. I don't have time for the patient to come back in 12 weeks and tell me how it went.
Speaker 2:Right, you know, you're aligned.
Speaker 1:It's a matter of yeah, there is a lot of avoidance in there, you know, avoiding the stress or the distress of the, you know, the journey, the journey, you know. But it also is that quite naturally so I want to see the result of my efforts as quickly as possible. Sure, and I guess it might look like impatience in some way or avoidance of that pain of the travails in the journey or whatever it could be. Yeah, but again, I do recognize that there is benefit and so much good education from looking back yep, yep, it is, it is You're missing.
Speaker 2:You're missing some things. And it doesn't mean, les, that someone who's wired like you that this requires a big change in you. This isn't about these wide. I used to be someone who was black and white and now, nope, now everything is gray for me and it's no. And don't expect that of yourself. Don't expect that of yourself because you, being that way, is also, um, a really wonderful thing. You're a wonderful anesthesiologist. You, you know what I mean. You, you are results oriented. You, you do um, uh, you plan A, b, c, d, e, f G. Plan a, b, c, d, e, f g before you go into the operating room. Yeah right, um. So these, these ways of being, is not to um, you know, kind of um, um, oh, I want to change this way about me.
Speaker 1:It's just about awareness, it's just about awareness and making these little things.
Speaker 2:You know. There used to be this show I used to watch where oh boy.
Speaker 1:Is it British?
Speaker 2:No, okay, I'm not going to go into it deeply. But you know you have these people in your life who someone will say, oh my God, that's amazing. And then you have other people like, yes, all right. And you know those two are the same because usually that other person will say nothing. And when they say, yeah, it's all right.
Speaker 1:That means it's big for them.
Speaker 2:So when you, the way that you're wired when you do these things, people will notice because it's big with them. They're used to you showing up this other way and then they know that you took the time to make this little change on their behalf. So it's not about trying to like typically when I, when I, you know, bring these things, it's not in any way these, um, you know, changing oneself. Fundamentally, it's just an awareness, so you can tweak, just an awareness, so you can tweak. So we can, so we can tweak. We all listen. I'm a, I'm a tweet, I will tweak. I'm a tweaker. You're a tweaker, I'm a tweaker, I'm a tweaker.
Speaker 1:Anyway, it's funny that you mentioned that about the excited and some people and whatever, because Rick is like that, like, um, if this is his excited face, right, or this is, let's just say this is his normal face and then like, if something really great happens, this is his excited face and I'm like, isn't this wonderful? And you know me, isn't this great? Wait, I got something great for you. Listen, check this out. And he's like, yeah, it's great, you know it's like. I'm like, oh, that's your excited face that's exactly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I get it. Anyway, guys, thanks for listening. We hope this was helpful, and um just creates a little shift.
Speaker 1:We just need little shifts to bring more joy in just little shifts and and I'm sorry for making so many jokes and stuff I think this was my, uh, my nervousness talking and, and you know, it's like how? I know she's talking about me, sounds like somebody I know, um, but this is not something that you, a conversation that you and I. We have these conversations all the time. You know, it's like you're telling me les stop trying to escape where you are, sit in it, you know? And um, yeah, are you safe over there with the thunder and all that? I know there's been crazy stuff going on you okay yeah, um the.
Speaker 2:I don't know if this is still the remnant of the storm that hit um texas, chantal yeah it was in our neighboring um I heard our neighboring our neighboring county um yesterday and there there were a couple of deaths, I think. But I think I'm staying inside and I checked to make sure that my windows were up. My car windows were up and my screen, my sunroof, so it should be all good, alright, guys.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you for listening. This has been another episode of Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn, brooklyn.
