Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn
This is what the world needs now: two free-thinking “seasoned” Black women speaking their truth and inspiring others to do the same. Shaped by 45 years of friendship that began at the prestigious Brooklyn Technical High School through the Ivy League, medical school, marriages, divorces, triumphs, parenting queer children, life-threatening illness and many many amazing adventures. Each week, besties Leslie Osei-Tutu and Angella Fraser will push against boundaries in love, culture, careers, faith, politics and out-dated assumptions about women of a certain age. Remember, you’re never too old to change your mind…or your hair! (but more on that later :-)All views are our own and do not reflect the views of our institution/company. Information provided is not intended to serve as medical advice.
Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn
Ep159 When Family Hurts: Going No Contact And Healing
Angella and Leslie wrestle with how to set boundaries with loved ones without guilt, why the concept of “no contact” is gaining language online, and what healing looks like on both sides of estrangement.
As usual, humor lightens the load and remains an invaluable tool to support resilience and repair as The Besties trade stories, therapy wins, and lessons from recent podcasts from Stephanie Perry and Oprah.
Oprah Explores the Rising Trend of Going No Contact with Your Family
Stephanie Perry Going NO CONTACT with narcissistic mothers | Black women & estrangement at the holidays
Reparenting Coach Dani Ellison
https://www.youtube.com/@daniwentnocontact
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https://calendly.com/rhythmwigs/more-joy-complimentary-consultation
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We’re Too Old for This! The Inquisitive Older Woman’s Guide to Joy http://joystrategy.co/ebook
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You can't do that. Are you gonna do that? Yes. No, because you're anonymous you're an anonymous guest. I'm gonna say hey, anonymous guest.
SPEAKER_00:I'm gonna say okay. Okay. Stupid. One, two, three.
SPEAKER_01:Hey Ann. Hey, anonymous guest. How are you? I'm doing well. Good. Hi folks, welcome to another episode of Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn. I'm Angela. And um this podcast is usually starts with my bestie Leslie of almost 50 years. I'll say that we are two free-thinking black women who have decided to bring more joy and boldness into our lives, and we encourage you to join us on our journey as well as starting or continuing your journey. However, today I'm joined by an anonymous guest. And what we're going to be talking about today is something that has been pretty um, there's been a lot of uh buzz about it on social media platforms, um, including um our dear friend um Stephanie Perry, who talks about um narcissistic parents and going no contact. Her um her uh, I think it was a live that she did, was called Going No Contact with Narcissistic Mothers. And there's another one that she talked about, and that my anonymous guest and I also um watched was Oprah Explores the Rising Trend of Going No Contact with Your Family, and that is on the Oprah network. So um my anonymous guest, I'm hoping that my bestie Leslie will show herself. Maybe she can join us. Um, but for now we have the anonymous guest because this topic is is is personal. It's personal, it's dicey, you know. As we talked about what we would talk about. I mean, when we watch these these um these uh um shows on on YouTube, we were immediately struck. As a matter of fact, to be honest, we were talking about it before we saw these episodes on YouTube because of what's been going on. Um there's been a lot of family stuff, and um it comes to a height typically around the holidays. And so we were talking about that, and then um I was talking about it with my anonymous guest here, and then we found that there was this conversation going on um um on social media and in particular YouTube, and so I'll jump in right now. Go ahead and jump in, please. Anonymous guest. Can I call you A G? Sure. My best friend's calling G.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, G. What what my voice is muffled? And the reason my image is not displayed.
SPEAKER_01:But the eyes the eyes are crooked.
SPEAKER_00:Let me tell you how I did the let me tell you how I did the eyes. Okay, how'd you do it? I just took it. I took it with my finger.
SPEAKER_06:Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_00:On the right eye.
SPEAKER_06:Let me tell you what to do.
SPEAKER_05:I jumped myself in the eye.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, I jumped myself in the eye.
SPEAKER_01:Oh my gosh. Leslie, you don't even, you're such an honorary Jamaican. You don't even know you don't know G. G, my bad. You found me. You don't even realize that joke is not that joke is not something that only Jamaicans use that term, joke, in the way that your your your anonymous guess was Jamaican. Just she, oh, sorry. Listen, my mother would say, um, you take bad thing, make joke. This is a really serious topic, but so many times we we have to bring humor into things as a way of um bracing ourselves for the kind of emotional onslaught of of these types of topics. And honestly, um, you know, some of some of the aspects of our experiences that we wanted to talk about were coming from Leslie, right? And and her experience. But as I listened to some of these um episodes, I realized that there was definitely stuff very, very, very different from Leslie's experience. But I experienced things on the other side, you know, as a parent. And so we're doing this with some apprehension. We're gonna try to find that level of discussion where we can be honest, but we can also respect relationships and also um uh, you know, like be where we are in it and not trying, not trying to be more evolved than we actually are in this moment, right? Um, so bear with us, we do have stuff that we want to share. Do you want to start, Les?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So I've had some discussions with Ange around how to effectively yet gently form um boundaries um in communication with family, loved ones, friends, partners, really the whole thing. Um and as we were talking about it and some of my more recent experiences with that and the need for it, actually, that's when we came upon these videos um that Ange just referenced, and we'll put them in the um notes. That there are actually, I wouldn't call it a movement, but people are really talking about this concept of no contact. Um and what's surprising is there no contact with their family members or no contact with their parents, and the discussions around why that happened and all. And I'll just say briefly, um, and I guess I'll expand on it a little bit more. I recently had um this conversation with a close family member that I needed to limit my um contact with them. At the time I said, you know, there's just too much drama going on with you, and I needed to pull back. And what I learned over the months of really not having too much contact or speaking to them was that they were really offended and hurt, and really could not understand what I meant by that, and minimized one, um, what I called the drama, but also couldn't understand my position. Now, let me just expand on, and you guys kind of know things about um what's going on with me in my position, in that I've had a lot of um the last year or two for me has have has been very difficult, stressful, emotionally taxing. I've um gone through a separation and divorce. Um more recently, my son has been quite ill, and that's taking up a lot of my time and emotional bandwidth. And as a result, what I have found is that those situations and people that have that have exacerbated my stress and angst and anxiety, I've decided I need to step back and not speak to them. Because what I am is a natural problem solver, I take on people's um issues, I'm am an empath. But as a result, I didn't have I realized now I do not have as much to give, to pour out, to help. I don't have that. And as a result, because I that was the role that I play in their lives for the most part, I couldn't play any role in their life. So that's really kind of where it it um where it came with the discussion.
SPEAKER_01:And I think Les that um two the two things that kind of came front and center for me as you spoke is that one is that you know big ups to you for saying that, for asserting your your needs and acknowledging kind of your um your boundaries, right? When when I talk about boundaries, I don't mean how do you block people or what you expect from other people. Boundaries for me are what are the boundaries that you set for yourself, right? If you say um the difference then is don't call me for the next six months, or I'll only talk to you once a month for the next six months, so don't call me. But don't call me, that that's on them. That's not a boundary. A boundary is I'm not gonna take your calls. So they can call you 50 million times, but have you kind of set that up for yourself to say, well, I'm only taking one of those every month, right? Yeah, so it's it's it's it's something around your behavior. And so I want to kind of acknowledge that you had the, you know, you you unfortunately came from your just you know, lack, like I can't do this anymore. But nonetheless, you didn't ghost, you said, I can't do this right now. I have all of these things going on, I can't do this right now, right? The other part of it is that um the expectation is that you have the the other person should say, I get it. You know, is there anything I can do to help?
SPEAKER_00:That was my expectation. That wasn't what I received. Right, right. You know, yeah. And and traditionally, these things become a little dicey because you feel some um family, you there are family obligations, not just that you feel it. I mean, you spend your whole life um with family members, and you do have some obligation. What I think is new and I guess more progressive is that I'll speak for me, but it extends to other people as well. I'm learning more to protect myself and put myself first. And I know that saying, you know, you gotta put your seatbelt on or your mask on first before you help someone else. But as a physician, as a healer, as a mom, I'm always willing to make sacrifices and hurt in order to spare my loved ones from that hurt.
SPEAKER_01:So, Les, a question about that, right? Um did did you find that it was only when you were in this lack, like I just cannot, that you were able to say that, or could you not really have you, but could you reach this point without being in this depleted state?
SPEAKER_00:No, I could not. Because I think I'm a a a super person. Well, then I thank God. I thank God. I think I'm an exceptional person in that you know how we are, we push ourselves more than we often ought. And I would have pushed myself more if I were emotionally able to accommodate someone else.
SPEAKER_03:Right, right.
SPEAKER_00:You know, I do have difficulty saying no. Yeah, I much rather feel the um the hurt or the sequele of putting myself second because I feel I can bear that. Or I am more able to bear that. Yeah, you know, I've spent many years enabling a former partner, you know, and I this is something I learned in therapy because I felt that in spite of the other person's let's say um um emotional immaturity or bad behavior or whatever, I was the better person so I can take it. I'm stronger, so I can take it. So I don't need as much protection as that other person, perhaps.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_00:And right now I'm really coming into this time or phase of not only seeking um self-protection, but I realize that I deserve that and it's my birthright. You know, I know it's what God wants for me to be also protected. Yeah. And I think just to close the circle, why I'm so happy in my current love relationship. Because I have someone who's very, very attentive to my emotional needs. Yeah, you know, yeah. So I think perhaps um knowing what that feels like, it was a little more obvious to see when I wasn't getting that and when I was being more depleted.
SPEAKER_01:Right. Right, yeah. So what what we're not gonna do today is to kind of go through everything that that the that Oprah and um Stephanie Perry and their guests um uh talked about. We're gonna touch on on a few things, but it was these conversations were really um just a way for us to to reflect. Yeah, for example, something that I was saying to to Leslie in um Danny, Leslie, did you write down her her name, her full name? I'm gonna I'm gonna pull it up. I have it right here. Um Stephanie's guest was um her name is um Danny Ellison, D-A-N-I-E-L-L-I-S-O-N. And her platform is called Reparenting Coach for Black, she's a reparenting coach for black women. Um we'll we'll have links to this in our episode notes, but um she her comment about the Oprah episode was that let me just stop you for one second.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, sure. How about if we uh if you or I will just mention her position in general? Your Danny's position.
SPEAKER_01:Um well she had a yeah, she had a lot of positions, but she she is a she is someone who um uh uh has um separated herself from I think her mother, who um is according to Danny, a narcissist. So guess what? I'm gonna believe her. Um her mother's a narcissist. And um through that experience, she is now a coach, um, very well credentialed, a lot of experience um coaching in this realm. And if I we hope that you you take the time to listen to the episode again, it's called Going No Contact with Narcissistic Mothers on Stephanie Perry's uh podcast, Stephanie Perry's platform. Um, but her position, Danny's position, I think what you mean, Leslie, in terms of the Oprah episode, is that it was um it didn't spend enough time or it kind of gave license to parental behavior, um, negative parental behavior, and may have been a um uh triggering for some children, adult children who have um experienced that. And what I said to Leslie is I'm gonna listen to the Oprah episode to get a full understanding, but I don't have a say in whether Danny was right or wrong. It hasn't been my experience. I haven't had a parent who was a narcissist. Um uh, you know, I I have a parent who was other things, but not um, so I didn't grow up in that. And I'm gonna I'm not listening to what Oprah and her guests had to say in kind of, well, do I agree or disagree with what Danny had to say? That's not my job. That's not my I don't even because I don't have any of my own experience to say this is valid or invalid. Valid or invalid. Yeah. Basically, how dare I say that? It's almost like people, and you guys know that I I often bring in race into these conversations, not because it's the same thing or so on, but I believe that race and the way that we experience race, racism in America, it gives us a lot of kind of common understanding of things. And um and so it helps us to kind of understand other things because of that. So what do I mean by that in this case? What I mean is that it's like someone who's never experienced racism looking at something that discusses race and has an opinion. You don't get an opinion. You your position here is to listen and learn. It's not to have an opinion on something that you've never experienced. So I I was sure I was very careful to listen, to learn and learn maybe why Danny had this point of view, versus um uh deciding whether I agree or disagree. This was this was a listen thing, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so what I was struck by, first of all, the whole concept, and it has this name, you know, um going no contact. And obviously it's an extreme behavior or decision that people, and it could be children could make that decision, parents can make that decision, friends can make that decision, and whatever. Right, right. Um so it takes an extreme example, but what Danny was saying in her case was that a person who has this mental illness, this condition of narcissism, will not change their barrent behavior. And as a result, if we as their children continue to go back to them with an expectation of improvement, or that it'll get better, or it won't hurt as much this time, or now they'll center me instead of centering themselves. This is a um, she wants to alert folks that this is a mental condition that will not change. Right. So we then have to change either our expectations or we protect ourselves.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And what I also said to you, Ange, is that this type of thing is a spectrum. It goes from um no contact is on one side of it and full access, and whatever comes with that full access is on the other. But then there's different levels of either we can call it estrangement or involvement or connection or whatever, right? You know, and while I never um considered in my situations, and I've had quite a few situations of no contact, um I don't need that level of finality, but I am able and more able to discern the good the timing for contact. I'm not ready to talk, I don't have that, um, you know, and that type of thing.
SPEAKER_01:So I heard you really mention two diff two different spectrums, right? Um, one of them is um the level of contact, right? It's it's um full contact or no contact and everything in between. And the other spectrum was levels of um of um let's call it a thing, of mental illness, right? It could be zero to uh narcissism, right? And so those are two different things. You could have um full contact with a narcissist, zero contact with a narcissist, you could have full contact with someone who is a wonderful person, but you've got your issues, or they you know what I mean. Um so it's two different things, and the reason why I call those things out separately is because um you may be somewhere on one of those spectrums, right? You could um have decided like you did in this moment that I'm not going to I'm going to limit my contact to this person and maybe once a month, once every two months I'll check in type of thing, right? Um I think there's some should I say it last? Um I think that in the situation that you have, there in there is some narcissist behaviors at at play. Um we've known each other a long time and you know we we we we know the people and um but the other thing and and I'm I'm pushing myself to talk about this because I'm gonna say it now before I um I I pull it back.
SPEAKER_00:Hold that thought from one minute. Okay. Um in Danny Ellison's case, it's um she speaks specifically about a narcissistic parent. Yes. But it could be any mental illness, not just narcissism, it could be, you know, bipolar disorder or manic uh or depre or severe depression or schizophrenia or whatever. People may pull away from folks for a multitude of reasons, or non-diagnosed. Um, you know, these people just get on your nerves every time you speak to them. You know what I mean? And we all know people like that that, you know, don't answer the phone right now. I'm busy, you know, they sap your energy when you hang up the phone and you feel like, oh my gosh, and you know, it's like on and on and on. I have some co-workers like that. But um, but um, you know, yeah, yeah. So yeah, go ahead.
SPEAKER_01:So you were gonna say so but what I want to talk about is also the work that the the that you have to do, right? And all of this and kind of the other people and their behaviors. I want to kind of talk about the the work that you you personally might might have to do, right? If somebody is annoying you and you can't, I mean some of that could be you, right? It's not only the other person. So um what happened with me is um there was a point in my life where um someone that I was close to was going through a very difficult um time, and they um came out of contact with me. And it's someone that I that I love deeply, yeah, and it was one of the hardest things that I ever dealt with. Um and remember, two things, five things can exist at the same time. It was an opportunity for me to do reflection that was one of the greatest gifts that I ever experienced, and it continues, it has a real long tail. And some of what you hear me talking about joy and living joy and setting joy boundaries and letting joy kind of dictate your life and and and um hold you accountable and things like that came out of that experience. It was a big part of what led me to therapy, um, how I um evolved as a as a person, how I um just started loving myself and having a lot of self-compassion and putting things like guilt and shame and responsibility into their place, right? Um, that you can be responsible for something and not have guilt about it. Imagine you can be responsible for something and not have guilt about it. You don't have to give up the responsibility by giving up the guilt. You can be responsible, yeah. I was responsible for that, okay? And not have guilt. It's a process, it's a process, but um that being on the other side of it was for me an opportunity for growth, and by the grace of God, I took that opportunity. I was compelled to take that opportunity because this relationship meant so much to me. And one of the things that really helped me to stay in the doing the work is that I wanted to be ready for when that person um reengaged. I didn't want to be the same. I didn't want to be the same, I wanted to be better at managing myself, my ego, um, not centering my pain. Um, my pain is there, but knowing that other people experience pain too. And, you know, as the song goes, and it's probably biblical, everybody thinks their burden is the heaviest. Everyone thinking that his burden is the heaviest, as Bob Marley would say it. Every we we often think that our burdens are the heaviest, and they're yeah, they're they're uh okay, yes, and what does that mean? That yeah, right? You can have a heavy burden and acknowledge someone else's heavy burden. It doesn't have to be a race to the top, a race to the worst, a race to the do you know what I mean? Two people can experience heavy shit, and honoring yours does not mean dishonoring or minimizing theirs. And that's a lot of what I learned. And so being on the other side, being the um the person who was um um who was estranged from someone else, not um, and and it was not initiated by me, led to um something that I'm really proud of, something um which is doing a lot of emotional work that was became required of me because I wanted to be this better person. And um, and I am, and and so so I can talk about it really boldly because I know I did the work and the work continues, but had it not been for this thing that forced me into this really uncomfortable, uh, you know, but here here I am, and and so it's not about avoiding, and there's work that you might have to do. Um, sometimes it's you know, again, it's a it's a it's an and, right? Not just an or, but you may have to decide, yes, that estrangement is necessary, and do your own work, right, uh, around the role that you played. You may not have initiated, you may not have made the situation worse, but you may have been an enabler, for example.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_01:And and kind of looking at that enabling thing, because typically what happens is if you're that in that relationship, you're that in other relationships, right? What did I say? You want to put the bag back on? No. I beg your pardon.
SPEAKER_00:I was just saying, I'm just saying we need to call in our anonymous guest again. G? G, would you like to come back? No. You know, what you were saying, I'll tell you, a number of years ago, it reminded me of a really painful part when um um uh uh Omari was estranged from me. And I did not initiate it. It was well over a year. He um had no contact with me. And I do remember so vividly how painful that was for me. It was a little bit helpful trying to imagine that although we had always been close, for him to separate himself like that, he must have been suffering also.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_00:But I think the the thing that made it most difficult for me is that I didn't know why.
SPEAKER_05:Right. Right. And plus he was ill.
SPEAKER_00:And his and he was ill at the time, um, which compli I'm sure complicated everything.
SPEAKER_05:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00:When you don't know why, unlike in your case, you had an idea of some of the mental um processes and the problems that your person was going through, I had no idea. Yeah. So I really was trying to do some emotional work on myself, but in a vacuum, in the absence of a lot of information. I see. So I couldn't confirm whether or not I was in the right direction or whatever.
SPEAKER_03:You know, I understand.
SPEAKER_00:I just knew, and I came to learn this a decade later or so, is that if the person is experienced something like this, the it's a two-way street. Yeah. You know, it can't be all, oh, they're crazy and they're a burden, and you just gotta pull. It's a dynamic between the two of you. Yeah, for sure. So I love that you recognize that there were some alterations you need to make, you needed to make in terms of therapy and changing or whatever.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I um I came to that a little bit, it took me a little bit longer, I think, to um make these changes.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_01:You know, I I didn't have a choice. Right. And um in the last few weeks.
SPEAKER_00:Well, you say you didn't have a choice, but it's like we always have choices. You could say, you know, fuck it. You know, let them come back when they're ready. That's a narcissistic way to think about it. There you go.
SPEAKER_01:I get that, but here's what the point that I'm making and saying it that way is because um sometimes life puts you in a situation where you have to step up to go deep. You have to make really, really hard decisions, decisions that on the outside it may look like you know, um, you're you're the worst person, or how could you do that, or whatever it is. But you come to realize that you have to thank God for it. Because had it not been for that oh yeah, that oh yeah, that like groaning pain, like just all the blood comes out of your just, you know, you can't even speak. You you just groan when you're praying. When you come to realize that that is the moment, that moment of desperation, I'm gonna say it, of desperation, when you have to move out of that. Like, that's what I meant. I the compelling for me was that I need to be better because my love for this person was so deep. I had to, I had to, I had to. What was the alternative?
SPEAKER_00:Like, what I I I had to do it, and then too, you also with your faith, yeah, you know that when you do the work, he rewards you. Yeah, yeah, when you do the work, his will is done.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you know, not none of the surface stuff.
SPEAKER_00:Not at all. And and and this type of thing takes so much patience. It does, yeah. It takes so much patience. And you know, just in thinking about these this topic, I know quite a few people who are estranged from their children. Um, I believe it's the children that have um stepped away, gone no contact with the parents. I know at least three um women who have no contact with their children.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I'm gonna say that one of the things that I noted, I I think this was in the the the Oprah conversation, they talked about um uh different generational generational understandings of trauma and and abuse and harm, right? Like back in the day, for example, um when maybe spankings or or treating your child a certain way was pretty common, right? Or um imposing strict rules on your child so that they show up a certain way in society, right? So that you you look good, you're you're you're making the family look bad, or things like that, and putting a lot of that in in one generation, it might have been very common, expected. In this generation, it may be named um as as abuse and trauma. It's so obvious.
SPEAKER_00:Whereas parents would say, wait a minute, I wish I had the children. Exactly.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, you're lucky. You only got sprang with my hand and not with the with the um with the um electrical cord, or you know, just things like that, where um things that were common in the past are not common now. So that I thought was a really interesting way of kind of looking at this too.
SPEAKER_00:But one thing that I've Always been well aware of, and it's really important in this context is that we can't negate the experience of the narrator. Okay. You know, it's so common, like you know, I said I'm sorry, or but you you you're doing okay now, aren't you? Right. Or these types of things. It's like, well, I said I'm sorry, and I really didn't mean it.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Well, you know, intent doesn't take away pain. Somebody ran over your toe. Your toe hurts. They didn't mean to do it, but it's still broken. It's still broke. That shit's broke. So, so you know what I mean? So it's not the the perpetrator doesn't tell the victim when they've had enough or when they can come back. Indeed. It shouldn't hurt you so much. No, but you had enough time. You had enough time. But I'm your sister. Yes. But I'm your husband. Right. I'm your mother. I'm your father. You know what I mean? So you owe me a connection, even though it's painful for you. Yeah. You know, intentionally or not. You know?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I'm not, there's no blame here. Right. I just need to know what I need to do to protect myself at a time when I'm emotionally vulnerable. Right.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_00:It can be. And what I loved about that was that every parent, any parent or friend or loved one should applaud your decision at self-protection. Because you don't want them to be selfish and say, it would be nice, but I still want you to be with me, even if you're suffering. Like who would want that? Right. Right. Right. You know, when I it reminds me when I separated from my former spouse, I wish that he would find another partner that is suitable and makes him happy and lives out his days and cares for him in the way that he didn't get from me. Or he didn't feel he could get. You know what I mean? It's like, if I'm not with you, that doesn't mean that I don't wish you well. Right. You know, or I negate the the difficulty that you say you had or what have you. No. You know, we we still have to validate each other's feelings. And if we love someone, if they say, you know, I need some peace, I need a break, I need to move away, this is not working for me. It can it might be painful, but I think that we need to respect that if we care.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I I think so too.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I think it's saying something, you know, to the other person. It's saying that you're honoring uh their decision. And yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And I feel um bad. It it it's hurtful that when I had the conversation with um my person, I um they didn't understand my position. They couldn't understand why even the mess that my life has been lately. And it's been joyful too, but the messy parts of it, they still couldn't understand why I needed a break.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_00:You know.
SPEAKER_01:So a challenge is coming. So you mentioned before when in in contrast between my what happened with me and what happened with with you, you said that um but I knew you know what the situation was and and you didn't know. My question is um for you or those out there who are um wanting to or are estranged from a loved one, whether they know, did you just cut off, did you tell them, do they know what they did so that they can go do the work? Or have you just cut them off and feel so that you don't you you know, and it no judgment, because it could be that you have no emotional bandwidth to do that, right? Yeah, but that is a question. Let me tell you how to do that.
SPEAKER_00:Have you told them? Have you told them what I think? Okay, go what I honestly think what happens most often is that person is telling us often and we're not listening. Say more. What I mean is I think in Omari's case, yeah, he likely was saying many things if I were able to hear him. Yes. But very often we don't hear people because we have a certain dynamic.
SPEAKER_05:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:You know, so the dynamic is I tell him what to do, even though he's a grown-up living on his own, yes, and his role is to listen and obey.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And perhaps when he no longer wanted to do that, that's when he knew that I wouldn't understand. In other words, we need to give the other person space to talk.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:We need to make it not easy, but we need to be approachable.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_00:And let that, you know, it just reminds me of a situation again in my um my previous relationship where I would complain about a certain thing. You never tell me this, you never tell me this. And then what I really thought about is like, well, do I make it safe for him to tell me that? When he has told me this, what is my reaction?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:You know? So am I really asking for disclosure? Am I making it safe for this level of disclosure? And these are difficult conversations.
SPEAKER_01:And that reaction could be that you start crying. That is not creating a safe. That's something I learned. That's something I learned. What did I do I didn't mean to do? That is not the same thing.
SPEAKER_00:What made you bring that up when I was talking about? No, you didn't do that.
SPEAKER_01:That was that was did I do that? That was definitely me. Some stuff that I had to grow my ass out of. Like that is not making it about you. Yeah. No. This hurts me so much. Don't do this to me. I didn't mean to do that to you. What?
SPEAKER_00:That's not safety. So listen, remember when I told you about, I won't mention his name, but that he is estranged from his sister. And what I kept saying to him is, why don't you be the bigger person and you make up? Why don't you be the bigger person?
SPEAKER_03:Right, right.
SPEAKER_00:And he has had no contact with this person for a number of years now. But I kept saying, such a nice guy, and this, and you be the bigger person. I and you pointed out to me that by telling him and advising him to do that, you are negating his feelings and disrespecting his emotions and his emotional trauma from the hurt and the relationship. He too was hurt.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So why should his hurt be minimized and he should make up to someone who hurt him? And likely, and likely he knows who this person is. Yeah. And he would make himself more vulnerable again.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, Les. I'm still learning. I'm so glad you took off. Um, I'm so glad that uh my um uh my guest went away and and you joined us.
SPEAKER_00:Because you outed me.
SPEAKER_01:Did me too. I didn't she's like practice here. I didn't practice. Listen, listen. Leslie, if you haven't noticed, Leslie is one of the funniest people that I know, that I know. I it can be any conversation like this one, and Leslie can have me on the floor laughing. Imagine we come on, we start recording, I you know, I put on camera and I see this bag.
SPEAKER_00:But initially the bag didn't have eye holes. When I'm the eye holes, I said to myself, I don't know where to look. Like, what difference did that make? And then I poked the holes where I thought my eyeballs and I'm missing myself in the eye. I had to push the cardboard, it was a little thick.
SPEAKER_01:It was it was a little card stocking. Oh my gosh. Anyway, um humorous health though, right? Really, really interesting stuff. Thanks for um for say yes to engaging in this conversation. I know that you know your stuff is a little more present than mine right now, but we all go through it, right? We all go through it, and um yeah, so we will put links to the two YouTube videos that we mentioned.
SPEAKER_00:So interesting. And tell us what you think about this. This is like is it selfish? Is it self-protective?
SPEAKER_01:Is it you know yeah. What are you doing if you're in on either side of this? Um, what are you what are you doing? What are some of the things? And um, whether any of our story resonated for you, we'd love to hear from you.
SPEAKER_00:And until then, this has been go ahead, let's episode of Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn, Brooklyn.
