Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn

Ep162 What’s Really In The Way Of Our Retirement

• Angella Fraser & Leslie Osei-Tutu • Season 16 • Episode 11

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What really stands between you and retirement: the numbers, or the story you tell yourself about them? Besties Angella and Leslie open the closet—literally, with a funny cashmere moment—and then open up about the deeper calculus of stepping away: identity, security, and the pull to live more joyfully while they can.

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SPEAKER_02:

Hey Aunt. Hello.

SPEAKER_01:

How are you?

SPEAKER_00:

You said hello. I am fine.

SPEAKER_01:

Hello. Hello. Hey Les. What's cooking good looking?

SPEAKER_00:

What's good? You know what I noticed?

SPEAKER_01:

What?

SPEAKER_00:

First of all, I like it blouse.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you. It's a dress.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh. And we both have good sleevage.

SPEAKER_01:

We have good sleevage. Yes. We must be bored.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. I don't know if we put that on our holiday without the consumerism list, but I over Christmas gave away some things that are really um near and dear to me.

SPEAKER_03:

You did.

SPEAKER_02:

Um, because I thought that they would be taken care of, and because I did love them, and because um I wanted to kind of transfer that the enjoyment that they gave me to others. And I'm gonna be doing that. That's so thoughtful. You sound like you're surprised.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I just can't wait till I load up as the recipient of all of these lovely things.

SPEAKER_02:

You know, that that bag of things. This seems this this is this is how we do. So when I um saw Leslie for the holiday, um, along with her, actually, I think it's one of my children that you gave the bag to, came a bag of things for me. Um uh things for cold weather, because you know, I don't I don't have a a lot of cold weather where I am, and so I I don't have those types of things. So I'm going through the bag with my sister, and um she's looking at tags. I'm not looking at tags. Oh, cashmere. I got that, I'll take that, but I knew if there was a bag of sweaters, it wasn't only one cashmere sweater in the bag. So we we we shared the cashmere girl. We we shared the bounty.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, I've got plenty more for you, don't worry. She could have had all of them.

SPEAKER_02:

I got plenty, you know, we're shaped very differently.

SPEAKER_00:

So well, not only are we shaped differently, okay, but it's sweating. My sister too, and they're what this sweater, so you know they're kind of a universal fit, but I'm always cold.

SPEAKER_02:

I know.

SPEAKER_00:

I listen, I kept my casmere beanie, you know, my winter cashmere beanie on my head all day long under my oar scrub cap. Wow, yes, and it was I was so because the oars are cold. I was warm and toasty and very comfortable. Don't sleep on cashmere.

SPEAKER_02:

Um I I I won't. It's just it's just a lot.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I understand. I understand.

SPEAKER_02:

But I I am enjoying the the fruits of your bounty. I appreciate it. Um, so I want to talk about retirement today. I want to talk about seriously, like what's in our way for us to declare that we're retired. What's in the way? I'd like us both to answer that question.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

And then we can meander if you'd like, but I'd like us to.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, we will meander, but first I want to get to the point and let folks know who don't know us.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Welcome to another episode of Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn.

SPEAKER_02:

Hey folks, I'm Angela, and that's Leslie, my best friend of almost 50 years. Um, we are two free-thinking 60-something-year-old black women, and we have made a decision, a commitment to have more joy and boldness in our lives. And we invite you to join us even more so. Get on your joy journey, continue your joy journey. We just want to be examples of doing things that are um outside of the norm. Even having this podcast is an example of we wanted to get the voices of some older black women out there in the airwaves. So here we are. Welcome to another episode. Yes. Um, so we're both 63. Leslie is you know quite a bit older. Older than we um beginning of the year, uh towards the end of the year, and but we're 63. And um, yeah, I I want to know. I want to know what's in the way. Um and yeah, and see where that that conversation takes us. Because I'm getting close, Les. I'm getting real close.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, okay, I understand you're getting close.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

And you and I we're talking more about retirement, actually, for similar reasons, although you're closer to it than I am, because we one we want to experience a different part of our lives.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And now that we have loved ones and partners in our lives, we want to experience our lives with them. And I keep saying that, you know, work is getting in the way of my lifestyle, you know. So, so as much as we all know how much I enjoy my work as a physician, I really do want to enjoy other parts of my life because there are so many things that I enjoy doing and being in places. So um I don't want to get to those things when I'm not able to fully enjoy them.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. So what's in the way? If you could answer the question now, oh, this politician.

SPEAKER_00:

If you don't mind, so that was just preamble. You you're bad. You're bad. It's like enough of that. What's in the way?

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, excuse me.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, let me tell you honestly, what I feel like I wonder, I've mentioned this, I think, on the podcast before. I'm at my um peak earning years. And I feel that at my age, if I leave the workforce, even though there's so much flexibility in anesthesiology, if I leave the workforce, if I feel like I want to come back, I might not be able to ease into it, um, into my salary, into my work setting as easily as I would like or be comfortable. So that's one thing that I'm a little bit afraid of. If I don't care for uh retirement as much, or if I really want to come back into um physician clinical practice, how easy or difficult would it be for me to return?

SPEAKER_02:

So, so so I'm asking you about your retiring, and within your response, you put a lot of consideration in how you're coming back from retirement. Did you notice that, Leslie? Listen, did you notice that you're you're you're you're retiring, you're retiring. I needed to leave a little window. I need to reflect this for you. In considering whether what is in the way with um with you retiring, one of those things is how hard it will be to come out of retirement. Wow.

SPEAKER_00:

And that will be that is how stunning how hard it would be for me when I get off the couch to say done with this. I gotta get back. This relaxation stuff is for the birds. I'm going to work.

SPEAKER_01:

That is pretty that's indicting. That ooh.

SPEAKER_02:

And and you you are totally serious. I was very serious. You are, you are very serious. Oh my gosh. Well, because I envision retirement.

SPEAKER_00:

There's no kind of like in and out, you know, in and out of work. You know, you work a little bit, then you play a little bit. You know, it's like, okay, I don't know if I would want to give up medicine completely. And and why do I why would I have to?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, it you you you kind of said that you want to be able to enjoy the other aspects of life with while you're able to. And I and I know um, I don't think we have permission to call his name, but I know you have a family member who is well into his 80s who still worked about 90. Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Way up actually in there.

SPEAKER_02:

And and I know the way that you're like, ooh, he's something else. He's right.

SPEAKER_00:

But the thing That's gonna be you, he loves his work. He's an accountant, he's an entrepreneur, he has his own business. And I'm not gonna say that this is something that he lives for, but this is certainly a huge part of his life. He doesn't feel like he's stifled, you know, he's not tired, right? You know what I mean? So I think retirement should be a choice, but I just always envision my retirement perhaps as a hybrid where I can, because I enjoy what I do so much, going in and out of it, you know. I really did, kind of leaving doors open or whatever, because how much hammock laying could you? You might get a little stiff every now and again, and you might find the need to say, count down from ten.

SPEAKER_02:

That this is very it's hitting me like are you surprised? No, I'm not surprised, however, with me asking such a direct question about retirement, I think I'm surprised that you couldn't even let yourself go there for five minutes. You couldn't even let yourself go there for five minutes. Um and and and and I'm also thinking about because some people may feel the way that I'm responding to you, they may feel that way about me. And let me tell you the difference for me is that um uh I could definitely retire. I could definitely retire soon. And what that doesn't mean is that my creativity is gonna end or ideas that come, I'm not gonna try to implement it. Does not mean um uh um eight hours a day in a hammock. That's just not for me, but I do look forward to not having to um center um income, not having that be so central in my life. I am looking forward to that. Um and you know, there may be something that I do in my retirement that becomes um a source of income, but I don't want to kind of I'm looking for when is the right time for me to say that that is not something that I have to focus on. And um I wanted to mention this too because I was talking to um Rebecca. Um remember Rebecca Eldritch, she was on our show. Um and uh we had a check-in today, and I was telling her about some of the plans that um executing on and and that type of stuff. And um I I I've realized that I I have been exposed to different types of ways that people retire, right? Um what I mean by that is I've been exposed to people who retired and didn't have this huge nest egg and still lived very comfortably outside of the United States, right? Um and because I'm kind of socialized in in kind of the the ways that America moves, um, this idea of you have to have several million dollars to retire comfortably, and until you have that set aside, no one can touch it, then retiring before that is is is is a folly, right? Yeah. Um, and so these ideas we have around how much is enough, now that I've kind of broke the well, enough for where. Enough for where, enough for New York, enough for San Francisco, enough for um Alabama, enough for Panama, enough for Ecuador, enough for Thailand, enough for Jamaica. Okay, and so it's it's this idea of of having enough. I I'm I'm pretty much through that, those, those, those, those concerns. Um and so I think it's gonna happen for me um definitely this year, and maybe in the first part of the year. And um yeah, and I like so when you say it's your prime um earning time, um, do you feel like you don't have enough? Like, like as long as you're able to make money, you want to make money? That kind of thing?

SPEAKER_00:

No, no, no. What it is, I often wonder if I have enough. Because what I haven't done over the last few years, as you have, I haven't pared down my stuff. I also haven't pared down my lifestyle or my spending. And I feel that it's almost required to kind of ease into that, you know. I see. Yeah. So I'm not looking, I I'm not, I'm not looking forward to just abruptly stop spending or this or whatever. And because of that, yeah, I don't, I'm not sure if I have enough to be very comfortable. You know, I wonder I'm comfortable now and five years from now, but will I be comfortable in eight years? You know, um gotcha. Gotcha at this point, and again, I think this is a mind game, but it's something that I need to play out and realize. It's almost how I felt, you know, having a child, you know. I'm not ready. Oh, I'm not ready. Are you ever ready? You know what I mean? You have the child, then you realize, you know what, I am ready, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. But I do, I'll tell you some things that will pull me away from the workforce, is as I said in the beginning, my desire to be in another place, to be outside of the United States, or to be with my partner, to travel around, you know, when I didn't otherwise have the opportunity to do that. So those are the things that would pull me and test me. Or when you see me doing that. Yeah, you know, yeah. I'm like, wait a minute, you know how comp uh. It's like she's in Costa Rica this week, and next week she'll be in Belize. It's like, wait a minute, I can do that. Let me just cancel my cases for the day, you know. Yeah, so wow.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, yeah. So a year, two years?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, well, I remember I planned to stop in 2026. That was my plan. I mean, remember, we were going sailing off in our thongs to the sunset. They don't know what's over there. I never know. But um, but you know, I gotta I'm sidetracked now because of, you know, Omari and what's happening with him, so that might delay it. It's like I have colleagues saying, So this is your last year, right? Are you leaving soon? Are you leaving? And I'm like, yeah, I was gonna, but I'm not sure now.

SPEAKER_02:

So I'm here with you. Oh my goodness. Yeah, it's um the idea of doing it is still a um it it'll it'll it'll be a completely different and distinct uh phase of life, for sure. And I don't want to kind of uh pretend like it like it wouldn't be. It is something that uh I would have to get used to because for m most all of our adult years we've been um in either the pursuit of an income or we've been in the pursuit of ways of making more money. So be becoming better educated and and things like that. So it will be a completely new phase of life. Um but I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna predict that 2026 first half of 2026 I'm going to wow yeah well you already have it in emotion.

SPEAKER_00:

Here's the other thing though Ange that I think that you're you might be cheating a little bit okay in that you're an entrepreneur and you don't need a physical space to do your work or to um support yourself financially. You come up with ideas you sell creativity you are creative all of these things so you are you have a lot more fluidity in terms of um earning money you know I can see you going abroad and setting up some type of business where people are going to come to you and the reason that I would be a little more reluctant to um completely you know leaving medicine is that my work involves me being in a facility in a place in a locale I am not I don't have the freedom of movement in order to earn the income that you know that I earn you know yeah no you're you're you're completely right in that and I think that is actually a part of why I want to make a declaration because what may not be obvious to people who are not entrepreneurs who get paid a salary I was I was describing it to someone like this it's like when you're in school and you get a break but you have papers to do so you're not really relaxing.

SPEAKER_02:

You're just it's almost like you feel like okay I can't do too much of this because I got to get back to blah blah blah. Well a part of being an entrepreneur is you're always um uh thinking about the next thing you're always thinking about how to sell it so before you actually sit down to do the work and do the financial exchange there's a lot of conversations marketing um thinking it's back it's a lot and it's always there especially like you said yeah I can be away and there are opportunities there well I know that so the work for me is to say yes there are opportunities but I'm not gonna pursue that there you go and it's so funny for me this is why I moved away from teaching and I tell people I think medicine is easier than being a teacher.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah when I was teaching I never turned it off when I was in the bank I'm marking papers standing online or I'm thinking of lesson plans or I'm thinking about grades or my students or whatever. When I leave the OR I am done yes you know so I work in discrete chunks of time and I tend to discrete chunks landing the plane taking off you know those type of things but when I'm out of the hospital and that's why I say you know people say what shall I call you shall I call you doctor I'm like call me doctor when I'm in the OR you know when I'm in the hospital I hear I'm blessed you know um so I think so that's a difference and you're right I I can't wait to see how it is that you turn off your entrepreneurial spirit and really lean into retirement and not a pursuit of something that's can be income producing.

SPEAKER_02:

Right right it it it when I consider retirement what that looks like for me is that that's not what's leading me is the income.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm not going to turn it down necessarily oh come on she's etching folks so no no no so so I just mean that we're gonna see her on the corner with a kiosk set up like a tiki bar and she's crocheting and selling her little um oh my goodness matchy crochets and beautiful dresses and um well I just mean that for example and she's just gonna say it's okay Les because this is not leading me Les I'm just saying if I write my book and it sells I write on the book who am I to get in the way of that I'm writing the book not ooh this is going to be a bestseller but if who am I I'm not gonna get in the way of the the way that the blessings flow um I just feel like um being being in the um in the space where even when I'm not actively speaking with the client I'm still thinking and planning and all of that I want to give my brain a rest and I want to um you know pursue some of the other things that I want to do in my life and I want to test myself I want to see to what extent I can really relax.

SPEAKER_02:

I don't know if I know how to to to do that.

SPEAKER_00:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00:

And I want to see true enough by stuff. I'd like to see what that feels like also.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay all right so we'll circle back and um see how it goes.

SPEAKER_00:

Anything else getting in the way I don't did you really say what was getting in the way of you you you just jumped on what I said so quickly.

SPEAKER_02:

No I did I thought I did what's in my way is the is the decision is is the um pulling out my spreadsheet confirming that yep I'll I'll I'll be okay and and then ripping it up and no more work and then it's you know I have to tell some some people and um yeah yeah I I don't I don't I don't think it's any more than that.

SPEAKER_00:

Many more than that I was gonna say you're 80% there. Yes oh yes mentally oh yes yes I'm 80% there. I would say I'm 40% there.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah yeah I I I want to be like available to help my to have in enough brain space to help some people that I want to help to do some of the things that they're kind of stuck on. I'd love to be able to just have the mental freedom to take some of those things on more fully. So I don't feel like retirement looks like um uh cabana living for me. Um okay you you know what I mean yeah like I'll be I'll be upholstering a a chair or I'll be uh yes yes I'll be doing things maybe I'll pick up painting and things like that so yeah but I I I think I'm really close to saying this this is it and I'm not walking that line anymore I'm gonna be fully on the other side oh my gosh I can't wait to see that I um I could see you getting into a conversation with a group of people and you walking out of that place with coaching clients I know I just I see how you're wired I've known you a day or two I I I I've seen you've you don't know me so I'm just saying yeah yeah I think that that that spark is is part of your spirit you know so we'll see we'll see if you can be happy and satisfied you know not being this person and for me to see as well and I I tell you what I'm not gonna do I'm not thinking about ooh how you gonna jump back in that and I I'm not doing that like somebody I'm just I'm just saying so interesting I'm just I'm just saying anyway let's see Les let's see how it goes let's see what um our what opens up in our worlds and um how we can perhaps pursue this thing called retirement and make it joyful and bold just like everything else and and and remember we have the freedom to define retirement in any way we want you know much like we can reframe um relationships and if we're lucky our working um lives so retirement may look like a hammock for some people it might look like you know every other month work for some people or no work at all or no no more income um production you know I think one of the things that's a hallmark about our podcast and what we try to um lead at um as examples is that at this stage of our lives we should be the arbiters of how we want things to go.

SPEAKER_00:

I think so you know and so much of that takes courage and you know stepping out um with or without fear you know right right but um so if retirement for me looks like a much reduced work life but still some I I think that could be satisfying for me for sure you know sure especially like you said is when you're away from work you're away from work which is different for a lot of people including me if you know what I mean so I think that that gives you that flexibility. Sure sure so that's what I mean okay very good to be continued thanks Ange thanks for bringing that up sure you're welcome I'm gonna get you though called me out in public you do it to yourself I just laugh well this has been another episode of Black Boomer Besties from Brunland

Contributor

Angella Fraser

Co-host
Contributor

Leslie Osei-Tutu

Co-host