Ep173 Is Your Ex Still Your Power of Attorney?

Every joy journey includes facing difficult decisions and conversations; the parts few people enjoy thinking about.

This week, Besties Angella and Leslie are challenged to plan, and update plans, to prepare for sickness and death; a topic Leslie embraces but Ang, not so much.

If you’ve been putting off these essentials of healthcare/estate planning, press play, set a deadline and do one concrete step this week to ensure that your wishes, should you become incapacitated, are honored. Subscribe, share this episode with one person you’d want to protect and leave a review so more people have these conversations before they’re forced to.

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Transcript

Welcome And The Joy Journey

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Hey Ange. Hey Les. How's it going? It's going good.

SPEAKER_00 0:07

Good.

SPEAKER_01 0:07

You're looking mighty um tropical, fester.

SPEAKER_00 0:12

Where you go?

SPEAKER_02 0:14

Listen, most of my stuff is packed, so you get what you get. You get what you get. Okay. It's either this or a sweatshirt. Uh, I like that. That's a goodie. Thank you. Thank you. I'll take it. All right.

SPEAKER_01 0:28

Well, welcome to another episode of Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn.

The POA Document Surprise

SPEAKER_02 0:32

Hey guys, I'm Angela, and that's Leslie, my best friend of almost 50 years. We are two 60-something-year-old free-thinking black women. And we're about the joy journey. That's what we're about. And the joy journey ain't always um tulips and skipping through them. Right. We're about, we we are here to talk about all aspects of the joy journey, which can be quite hard to fulfill your dreams and to seek satisfaction and not mediocrity and to um say goodbye to some things and some people who bring you down. These are not easy things, but they are things that lead to your joy. So we talk about all of it. Um, and we invite you to start your journey, to continue on your journey, and we hope that you learn a little bit from us today. Because Leslie, oh I'm so sorry. She makes me learn. She makes me uh right at it. Barely.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

I'm so let me let me tell you why she's acting so silly. Let me put my phone on. Um, do not disturb. So I found out something recently that I was a little surprised. So, okay, so you guys know me. I'm like the cross all the T's and dot all the I kind of person. I'm pretty organized and stuff.

SPEAKER_02 2:05

And do it and do it a year in advance, six months in advance.

Why These Papers Must Change

SPEAKER_01 2:08

I'm happy to do it, you know. And it's so I well, this just happened today, and this is why I'm talking about it. Um, Omari was talking to a social worker, and she was just going through her social work kind of stuff, the regular like checklist, you have this in place, you have this in place, you know. And she says, Oh, does do you do you have a power of attorney? And I'm like, Oh, yeah, he does. You know, we did that years ago. Um, I'm his power of attorney. And when I went and I looked at the document, and the document, I was his power of attorney, but the all alternate POA was my former spouse. And I'm like, oh, I didn't update this. And then she asked, you know, did does he have a healthcare proxy? Now, you know, he's a 37-year-old man, and it's like, how many, you know, people in their 30s have these documents in place? But you all know that Omari just went through a four-month hospitalization and touch and go and a lot of serious things going on. So it's perfectly reasonable that he would have a healthcare proxy. And what that is, is you tell, you document what it is that you would want um to have be done to you or what have you in the event. Or not done to you, or not in the event that you become incapacitated or on a ventilator or things like that. Do you want to be resuscitated? Do you want to live on a ventilator? Do you want certain measures done and all these things? But the point is that he that's some not something that Omari and I ever discussed previously. And I talk about it to all kinds of people, but I never thought to speak about it to him. Interesting enough is that I remember at one point in the hospital, they actually asked me what his code status was. And we don't expect anything, but just in case it was, in other words, um, if his heart were to stop, would you want CPR done? If he were unable to breathe on his own, would you want him to have mechanical ventilation, meaning intubated on a breathing tube and attached to the ventilator to breathe for him? And, you know, so it got me thinking. So I know I did all my stuff. I have wills, my will um done I came across quite a while ago.

SPEAKER_02 4:45

I came across said things in my packing. I was like, oh my, I've had it's it's it's um it's it's uh yellowing. I've had it for so she's had this in place for so long. Yes, right.

SPEAKER_01 5:02

So so I've had my will done quite a while ago, like my healthcare proxy and all of this stuff. So I'm like, I'm set. And then I recently looked and I'm like, wait a minute, I'm not set. You know, these are living documents.

SPEAKER_02 5:20

Ah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:21

And I just went through a divorce. So my former spouse's name is on quite a few of my documents. Likewise, I sold my home. So, and I've acquired, you know, another home and I have new cars or whatever. So, in other words, it's almost like taxes every year. If you, you know, these things change with changing life circumstances. Yeah. So I'm the lady that says to all my friends, you got your stuff done, did you take care of your stuff? Come on, let's do it together. Here's a good website, you can help you start. My shit ain't done either.

unknown 6:05

Yeah.

Estate Planning Is Not Just Money

SPEAKER_01 6:06

You know, it would be awful, you know, if I become incapacitated and my former spouse's name remains on my paperwork, you know, for him to be able to make um decisions for me. That's not what I would want. I'm not saying that he wouldn't step up to do it. I don't know. I doubt it. I would maybe who knows? He could be the better man. I know. But anyway, he would say, let her go, pull the plug, she's out of here. Good riddance to her. Finally, finally, um, but but really when I say that we have to do take care of our what they call them estate planning or estate documents. And when we say estate, they don't mean just if you have money to leave money aside. These are like a series of things that you have to have in place. And it's like these are not static one-time only things. These are really things that need to be updated. And it's like, gosh, one more thing. I gotta update and change the batteries and my smoke detector every year. I gotta do my taxes every year. But these are things that, you know, you really, they're important. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:31

I'm just looking up um our friend um and um high school classmate Carl Chen of uh Chen Law. Um he was on, I think he did two episodes with us about estate planning. So we're gonna put a link to those episodes so you can hear him talk about what is what is required and almost kind of demystify this whole process. Very helpful for me. Um so now I get to catch up with Les because my stuff ain't done either. It's not a good one.

SPEAKER_01 8:03

So when are you gonna update yours, Ann?

SPEAKER_02 8:06

Now update is is is a word. Now I get to maybe get mine done before you because your update may take longer than my my what I have to do. Um but but um so so let me just say his name again. Okay. Um his name is um the comp his company is Chen Law, C-H-E-N Law. It's based out of um Maryland. It's a firm specializing in estate planning and business law serving areas like Lake Arbor, Prince George's County, and the DC area.

SPEAKER_01 8:46

He gave us um important information uh in general about, and obviously you're advised to speak to your own attorney or advisor for your specific um information. But these are the required documents that, and it's not a matter of how much money you have or ex to uh uh plan to leave, but it's also about what you want your wishes to be for your own person.

SPEAKER_02 9:10

Exactly.

When Love Conflicts With Wishes

SPEAKER_01 9:11

Um, so these are the documents that he recommends you have in place as a component of your entire estate plan. Right, right. The thing, the way that I think about it is that at a time when you are most vulnerable, you want to optimize your personal care and wishes as much as possible. Because in illness, which is what I saw recently, there are so many things that are out of our control. So if you are able to have some modic modicum of your own um wishes that might be comforting during difficult times, yeah. You know, the other thing that I was thinking is that not only do you have to have these items in place, but you have to be able to talk about them to your loved ones. Because it does no good at all if I have all the documents signed and notarized in my top drawer if my partner, my sister, and Ang and Omari do not know that they're in my top drawer. Yeah. You know, what good does it do?

SPEAKER_02 10:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:42

Hospitals, if they're good, they usually ask, Do you have these documents? Um, do they exist and put them on file? But many people don't have them. They don't bring them to the hospital and they're not on file. So in addition to those files, those items existing, you also have to let your loved ones know what your wishes are. Yeah. You know, and I'll I'll say this that I've had many, many occasions to speak to loved ones of people who are ill, ill, ill elderly people and otherwise. And very often, we all know like um hospital records have your next of kin. You know, it most times it's your spouse or it's your parent or it's your child or whatever. And if the person is unable to speak, we don't necessarily look for those documents, but we'll ask the person. We will ask the next of kin what decision would your would the patient want, or give them the opportunity to speak for the patient. And I remember one time very specifically, she didn't seem to understand it at first, but it was a a woman that had an elderly mother who was quite ill. And I sat down and specifically said, When you are making this decision for your mother, I need you to know that you are asked to act in the way that your mother would want, not what you would want, or not what you would want for your mother. And I know that you love your mother, but I am your duty in as a power of attorney or as a next of kin in this regard is to speak as for the patient. And it seems like it's a subtle distinction, yeah, but not really.

SPEAKER_00 12:53

Right.

SPEAKER_01 12:54

You know, and this brings to mind the um contention, I'll say, that I had with my former spouse that his end-of-life wishes didn't mirror mine. And he's he told me that he would not be able to honor my wishes because he would want me to remain on a ventilator and all. Out of love, of course. But but they still, it wasn't in in it was not in accordance with what I would want for myself. So I could not make him my healthcare proxy.

SPEAKER_02 13:32

Right.

SPEAKER_01 13:32

You know, so I have to let this out.

SPEAKER_02 13:35

Really? Out of love? I don't know. No. I don't know. I'm not, I'm not, listen, I'm not gonna go all the way there. I'm just saying that sometimes people have their ways of doing things. And it doesn't, it's not a love thing. It's almost like what you said to the um the the daughter of your patient, right? That um sometimes people want to act in what they want and not what they want. To me, I don't know what I don't know if that's a love thing. Okay, I don't know if that's a love thing. Um it's uh this is the way it is, this is this is how I think it should be. And oftentimes not necessarily in regard for what the other person wants.

SPEAKER_01 14:17

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 14:18

It's an act of love. So I think that was very um, I don't I don't even know the the word. It was it was proper of you to say, well, if you can't do this, then you cannot have that role. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You you know what I mean? And I don't think people always understand that they can make that decision. It kind of defaults to a spouse, right? But if they cannot, if you know that they cannot, you have a responsibility to your wishes. Exactly.

A Missing Directive With Real Costs

SPEAKER_01 14:51

Someone else. Exactly, because it will default to the spouse, the legal next of kin.

SPEAKER_02 14:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:58

Um I'll tell you the instance that I've mentioned in the past. It happened probably 25 years ago, but it stays stays with me, um, has stayed with me this long. There was a young man in his 30s that was brought in unconscious, he was hit by a car. And um he had been in the hospital quite a few times, and there was no record on file of any advanced directive or health care proxy, or it wasn't documented what his wishes would be in terms of um end-of-life care or blood transfusions. So, in a case like that, for an unmarried person, your mother or parent is the next of kin, and his mother happened to be a Jehovah's Witness. Um he was bleeding and required a blood transfusion to save his life, and his mother, being a Jehovah's Witness, said, I do not want him to have a blood transfusion because they believe that that is um that's not in keeping with their religious beliefs. The young man's sister was there, the daughter, the mother's daughter, and she said, But my brother is not a Jehovah's Witness, he would want a blood transfusion.

unknown 16:23

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_01 16:24

But because there was nothing on file, and the legal next of kin is the mother, it went through the ethics or legal committee of the hospital, and it was concluded that it was the mother's right to make the decision, and this young man died.

SPEAKER_02 16:42

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 16:43

And he possibly could have been saved had he gotten a blood transfusion. Um, so that's an extreme case of the need for making your wishes known in cases like that. And if there are not any written documents, like most people don't have written documents, but if you tell people, at least they know you know, they can say he would want a blood transfusion. That's not in my uh according to my religious beliefs, but I know he would want a blood transfusion if he were bleeding because he told me. That's an act of love, I believe.

unknown 17:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:26

You know, yeah.

The Paperwork We Avoid Doing

SPEAKER_02 17:27

That that is, that is. Um you know, the reason why I was behaving in the way that I was um at the at the um opening is really because I don't like to admit how unprepared I am in in in so many ways. Um a part of why this became difficult for me, and it's no longer a good reason, but this is the reason at the at the time, was because I was always so it was so difficult for me to put into words what I would want for my um children who were minors, um that was different than what their father might have wanted. And it was it became such a such an obstacle for me mentally to kind of um either feeling that my words would have any particular power or um knowing that that this would cause um a rift or contention, whatever, it really kind of, and I'd I I have written out things since then, but I haven't made it official. Um I I have talked to um some of my loved ones about this, but it's mostly about my funeral, not about what happens if I'm hospitalized and cannot um speak on my own behalf. And so um it's um my I was acting that way because I'm embarrassed by this thing. And and something that um happened over the last few months, I wasn't even aware that I had, um, as my mom would say, a little money coming in, um, that I had a pension from a Fortune 500 company that I worked with for, worked at for maybe eight, nine years um, early in my career. And I got a letter just out of nowhere, was in my mailbox, and I called, and yeah, I do have a pension. Well, they have me as still married to my children's father, my first husband. What? What? We have been divorced since 2004. I had to, yeah, I had to, and it's not it's not all that easy to get it cleared up to be honest, but um because for whatever reason, but I am gonna get it cleared up, and um if I if I hadn't known that was my spouse, right? And that's who they knew, and that's who would get the money.

SPEAKER_01 20:23

Right.

SPEAKER_02 20:24

No bueno.

SPEAKER_01 20:25

And and and this, you know, these things, they're not easy. And and I think the biggest thing that we think of is that we have time. Right, right. We have time to address it or to take care of it. And how do you know? How do you know?

SPEAKER_02 20:42

How do you know how much time you got?

SPEAKER_01 20:44

You know something I don't? You know, how do you know?

SPEAKER_02 20:47

How do you know?

SPEAKER_01 20:48

You know, when Omari went to the hospital with a headache in October, he didn't know that he would wake up four months later. You know what I mean? That kind of thing. How you don't know?

unknown 21:03

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 21:03

You know, this is something I didn't mention to you, Ange, um, because it's they're kind of recent. But two of um our, but I'll say my close friends in the last week, individually out of the blue, asked me to be their power of attorney.

SPEAKER_02 21:22

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 21:23

Because, you know, for obvious reasons, you know, they're going through their documents and they see that, you know, we're in our 60s now and we're getting older, and you start looking around in your life and you start thinking, what would I want, and who in my circle can help me in the event that these things need to be done. And two people ask me, you know, would I be that person? And they made an excellent choice. They've made it, they made an excellent choice. I will not be the executive of an Not again.

SPEAKER_00 22:02

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 22:04

But I can I'll be the power of attorney.

SPEAKER_00 22:06

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Simple Paths To Getting It Done

SPEAKER_01 22:08

Um, but I tell you, not everything in life is supposed to be easy. But I'll tell you this. Let me, I'll say this. One of my um set of documents, because I've done them a few times, I've updated them a few times. I haven't in the past couple years, though. You there's so many forms that you could just download on the internet. You don't have to go to an attorney to do all of these things.

SPEAKER_03 22:38

Right.

SPEAKER_01 22:38

It could be as simple as downloading these forms. Um it could be um either it might have even done, I might have even done it as a trial for a free one-week trial of documents and then cancel if you no longer need to create new documents. Right, right. Or um, you know, you get a subscription to one of these organizations for a month or two or however long it takes, and then you print up your documents, and then you all you have to do is get them notarized. You know, and remember that the most current document is the one that supersedes the previous ones.

SPEAKER_04 23:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 23:22

So if all they can find is the one from 1980, you know. That's the one. In the absence of knowing that there's another that another one exists.

SPEAKER_03 23:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:34

You know, so depending on your circumstance, you might want to see an attorney because you may have complicated or some conflicting things or what have you.

SPEAKER_02 23:42

Or you have questions. Or questions, yeah. You just schedule an hour, you know, and get your questions answered, and then you can do the other things, you know.

SPEAKER_01 23:51

Yeah, yeah. Um, Rick and I just today, I think it was, um had a conversation about that and said that we are going to um collectively go because you know, we're joining two separate families and both of us have lived lives, you know. And while we have a child together, we he has children, um, other children and properties and this and that. So there's a lot of things that we have to bring together and get straight. Um, so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:28

It's important. Oh, it is just thinking about it makes me tired. No, well, you know.

SPEAKER_01 24:34

But when I saw the names that were on my documents, I'm like, yeah, make up, get a look at here. Wait a minute, who is this? Like, no.

Set A Deadline And Commit

SPEAKER_02 24:50

No, it's not a good thing. It's it's a it's important and um the alternative, because you when you see people who don't have these things in place and the the ways that it really complicates. And um, we've said this before, like you're after you're gone, it's the people who are still living that have to put up with your bad decisions. Right.

SPEAKER_01 25:19

Yeah, or your inaction.

SPEAKER_02 25:22

Right, right. So think about them, even if it's uncomfortable, Angela. Um, you have to think about the people who you're leaving behind and what kind of um mess or or confusion or um or or quarrels because they have different interpretations of what you might want, right? Um, so think about them, Angela.

SPEAKER_01 25:47

You're gone resting in peace, yes, and everybody else is fighting over. But he said, I get that. And oh no, he wanted this, and he wants.

SPEAKER_02 25:59

You don't want to do that. You don't want to do that. Don't do that. Don't be that guy, don't be that guy.

SPEAKER_01 26:06

No, don't be that girl. No, don't be it. All right, don't do it. All right, so we're clear, we know what we have to do, marching orders.

SPEAKER_02 26:17

Yes, yes, um, okay, yes, um, in the next month. Can you all right? Yeah, make a date.

SPEAKER_01 26:23

Yeah, you know, Rick and I said before the end of May, because we have a lot going on right now. Yeah, but whatever it is, make a date.

SPEAKER_02 26:30

Okay. I'm gonna say by the end of May too. Before I actually um leave this country, I will have that in place.

SPEAKER_01 26:38

Okay, bet. And we'll hold each other to it. Yes. Yes. Okay. Bet. Pinky swear. Okay. All right. All right. I think this has been another episode of Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn. Brooklyn.