E179 No, not everyone thinks like you!

Are you the kind of person who is automatically suspicious of people’s intentions? Besties Angella and Leslie are bringing you a real-time example of how fast our brains can write a story that isn’t even true and then treat it like evidence. The Besties have completely opposing views. 

If you’ve ever thought, “Everybody would think of it that way,” this conversation might make you take a pause.

Subscribe and share this episode with one person you’d likely have a debate with. But find common ground like the Besties do!

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Transcript

Warm Welcome And Bestie Energy

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Hey Ange.

SPEAKER_02 0:03

Hey Les. How's it going? Look at us. Are we doing like matching glasses stuff? Oh, yes. I I hadn't seen these in a while, but I opened a part of my knapsack and there it was. I'm like, hi, old friend. Man, I love your background too. Thank you. Listen, the things are being sold and the apartment is coming, is becoming very sparse. So I'm in one of the conference rooms. I like it. In my building. So um, yeah, so all the things are. You could have said, This is my home studio.

SPEAKER_01 0:37

Oh.

SPEAKER_02 0:38

This is what it is. Uh no.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

It looks like a home studio-ish. I okay.

SPEAKER_02 0:44

Adjacent, no.

unknown 0:46

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

So welcome to another episode of Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn.

SPEAKER_02 0:53

Hey guys, thank you for joining us. We are Leslie and Angela. We have been best friends for almost 50 years. We are two 60-something-year-old, free-thinking black women. And we are on our joy journey. And we come to you every week with uh stories about the things that we are challenged by. Oftentimes it's each other. And so tonight is one of those. Or just things that um make the joy journey, although worthwhile, makes it um, you know, sometimes a hard climb and sometimes a really fun climb. But um, we do want to invite you to get on your joy journey. We'd like you to continue to be on your joy journey, and we're hoping that what we talk about here can be helpful as you do that.

Cynical Or Flexible Framing

SPEAKER_02 1:48

Here's what happened, right? So um today we're gonna be talking about the different the different ways that people can be. And some people think that everybody is like them, and some people think that not so much. Ain't necessarily so. So it's kind of like I don't know if cynical is quite the word. I don't want to make it negative, but it's kind of either being cynical or being flexible. And I know flexible for me is a positive word, but flexible for other people may not be a positive word.

SPEAKER_03 2:27

So I was asking Les.

SPEAKER_02 2:29

Yeah, but I was asking Les. Like, I don't know if cynical is the way that you would describe yourself. Um, because I was thinking, oh, cynical sounds negative and flexible sounds positive, but that's actually my framing because I think flexible is positive and I think cynical is not. Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_01 2:48

But what um I don't think cynical is is is the right word, but we invite people to give some comments about what we're talking about. Yeah, and this came from a conversation, I tell you. It's positive. Listen, the podcast, she just won't leave me alone. You know what? While you were talking, I just thought next year we can we can say we've been friends for 50 years.

SPEAKER_02 3:13

Wow, Laz.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

We're at year 49 right now.

SPEAKER_02 3:16

Oh my goodness. I think it was 50 years. So anyway, we have to have a celebration.

SPEAKER_01 3:23

Yeah, yeah, we will. But listen, yeah, um, as I do, I was minding my own business. And no, and what that means is being helpful, Harriet. But this is how the podcast started, because we have these telephone calls, and sometimes they're two-hour phone calls while I'm walking around in the supermarket. Something comes up, and instead of letting it go, I can't. Angel's like, I can't. That's not true. I can't. That's not I can't do that. Like, can you just let me get on with the story in my own fantasy?

SPEAKER_02 4:02

So, all right. So I'll tell you what happened, right? And and by the way, um, our Jamaican friend Dawn calls me cantankaros. All the Jamaicans out there or Jamaican adjacent, you all know what that means. And I'm okay with that. I'm okay with that. So here's what happened. A

The Borrowed Car Misread

SPEAKER_02 4:19

friend of mine was talking about a conversation they had with one of their friends. And I'm trying to, you know, protect the innocent here. And so two friends having a conversation, and I'm hearing about it from one of those friends. So it goes like this. Oh, I borrowed something from someone and I thought I would have it all day. Let's say they borrowed a screwdriver, an electric drill. I thought I would have it all day.

SPEAKER_01 4:48

A car. Let's say they borrowed a car. Let's say they borrowed a car. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:51

Right. And um I was in the car driving around. The person said that I could have it all day. And it turns out that I um they then called and said, When are you when are you bringing the car back?

SPEAKER_01 5:06

And that's wait, it's nuanced because that's not let's what they said is like there's no rush. You know, you can keep in as long as you need it.

SPEAKER_02 5:18

Right.

SPEAKER_01 5:18

But that was keep it as long as you need it.

SPEAKER_02 5:21

That was that was the conversation earlier, right?

SPEAKER_01 5:24

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_02 5:25

But now the friend has the car and the car owner says, Oh, when are you bringing it back? Then maybe maybe they had it for an hour and they expected to have it all day. But what was said is, when are you bringing the car back? Friend number one interpreted that because this I'm just hearing their side. Friend one says, and they wanted it back, and even though they said I could have it all day, they wanted it back, and that's kind of just how they are, and I so I just hurried up and I I um took it back, but she was obviously a little frustrated about it, right? And so I kept quiet and she went on, you know. This is just um how she shows up and and whatever, love her, but you know, whatever.

SPEAKER_01 6:24

All right, let me just ask you what if I were that friend number one, yes, what would I have done?

SPEAKER_02 6:31

The same. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 6:33

If I you know me. Yes, I do. If if someone said, you know, keep it as long as you want. Or or if if someone borrowed if I borrowed money and they're like, you can pay me back whenever. This is a great analogy. Yeah, and they said the next day, when are you gonna pay it back? Right. Yes, okay. I'm hearing. Yeah, like they wanted, right? They want it right now. Almost like harassing me.

SPEAKER_02 7:07

Right. Okay, you see that, okay? Keep holding that that harassing feeling, okay?

SPEAKER_01 7:13

I'd feel some kind of way.

SPEAKER_02 7:15

Okay. Me, that's not how I think at all. Because I think, because this is this is how kind of I am, she could have forgotten. She could have, it could have meant, it could have meant, um, I just want to know whether it's gonna be eight or nine o'clock because I have something to do. It was a question, it wasn't a request. And so why would you just automatically think that and then build this whole story? So this was the analogy that I thought really nailed it, right?

The Lottery Ball Of Assumptions

SPEAKER_02 7:52

I said to me, it's like, and I I have to admit, I was a little, I was a little nice at the time. And so when I'm a little nice, I get really great analogies. So this is what my analogy was. It's like all of these possibilities are in a ball, like a lotto. Is do they still use that ball to do um to do drawing lottery? Okay. So all these balls of possibilities are in, all these balls of possibilities are in the spinner. And the one that you pull out is the one that is one of the more negative ways to see this person or to or or to interpret what was said, right? And guess what? You could be right. You could be right. But my thinking is but all these other balls are in there.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

But see, stop right there, because what I said to you, and I remember exactly where I had this tete à tete with you. I was sitting in my car carrying stuff. Yes. I said to you, when you told me their response and they took the um or gave the money back right away. Right, right. I said, everybody thinks like that. Yeah. And you instead of saying, because instead of saying, like, yeah, yeah, to move on the conversation, no, you stopped me right there and said, No, no, no. Everybody doesn't think like that. No. I don't think like that. Exactly. I don't think like that. That's because you're weird.

SPEAKER_02 9:29

It's like and I tolerate you. It's okay. It's okay. I'm okay with being weird. But here's the thing, right? And I'm not making a judgment about which way of thinking is right. I'm just here to tell you that everybody doesn't think like you. And everybody doesn't think like me. And I think that, you know, the way that I think about the way that we're we're all gifted in different ways, right? One of the ways that I'm gifted is in being really flexible. And one of the ways that you and people wired like you are gifted is um is being um very questioning, right? Very questioning because your your framing is like there is a right. There is a right way to do things. And me, it's like there are a hundred right ways to do things. It depends on so many things, right?

SPEAKER_01 10:23

For me, the veracity or whether it's right or not, is whether it works. Yeah, but And if it works, that is the way to do it. Correct. And there's nothing else out in the people.

SPEAKER_02 10:38

There's nothing. Once you find the right way, not only is it right for you, it's right for everyone.

SPEAKER_01 10:45

It ought to be right for everyone. So in that situation, the way that they responded, because they responded the way that I did, then that was the intent of the person that loaned them. Exactly. You know, and I wouldn't consider the other lottery balls in the big Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 11:05

And so the the bigger um kind of lesson or or um insight in this is what if every time that you had an opportunity to pull a ball out, you pull the ball that now becomes a whole story of how this person is. And so you're not giving them an opportunity to be different or to show up differently for you because you've made an assumption that's not even proven.

SPEAKER_01 11:34

That's not even proven, but it's used to do exactly all the time. Several of my former things describe my former pee. He would ascribe a certain motive to my behavior, yes, and then act on it and be upset with it, or this or that, or say you're selfish, or whatever it is. Yeah. And I'm like, but that was not what happened at all. Exactly. They create a whole lane that you went down was the total wrong lane when you should have gone this way.

SPEAKER_02 12:08

Right. So they chose the one that made you look your worst and ignored, like they didn't even exist. Any other possibility didn't even exist. So I'm gonna tell you one of my kind of um my vulnerabilities around that, right? When

Boundaries When Motives Get Assigned

SPEAKER_02 12:27

people do that to me, I cut them off. If it becomes kind of the pattern, because to me, that's seeing me inauthentically and that's calling me a liar.

SPEAKER_01 12:39

I understand.

SPEAKER_02 12:40

And I just have zero tolerance for feeling that way, like you always have to have to explain yourself or do all of this, you know. And I'm not saying, you know, once, twice, five times. I'm just saying that that is the pattern of the relationship. Yeah. Right. And it's like, well, you didn't even, you didn't even consider, you just have in your head that this is the way I am. And you have evidence. There's always evidence, right? Yes, that happened.

SPEAKER_01 13:08

Yes, I said that thing. If you look for evidence to the contrary, but some people just stop right there with what they're thought. I think it's it's it's a matter of extending grace. That is what it is. Yes, to extend grace to us. Yes, yes. You know, like like very often I have I can cite many examples where I I would say, well, in the many decades that you've known me, have I ever been that person? Oh, yeah. You know, have I ever been that person, you know, that but that doesn't matter. Right. You know, the evidence doesn't matter. What they pull out of that lottery on the cube, exactly. They lock into it and run with it whether before they check to see, did I pull out the right ball?

SPEAKER_02 14:05

Exactly. And actually, they seek out the ball that fits into the story.

SPEAKER_01 14:13

That fits into their narrative, yes.

SPEAKER_02 14:16

Right? And so by doing that, you really shut down any other possibility of seeing someone differently, seeing a situation differently. And um, I think because I know that the um majority of the structures in our societies are developed to reinforce the way that people like you think. And so it makes it even even harder to see it as something that needs to be um needs to be, you know, adjusted or needs to be kind of examined at all, because you have so many structures that support this way of thinking, right?

SPEAKER_01 15:05

So that's kind of why you jumped on it right away. I'm like, I said, well, everybody thinks like that. We we we lock into the first thing that comes up and run with it. And you're like, right, no, everybody doesn't.

SPEAKER_02 15:18

Everybody doesn't. I don't, I don't, and you know, there's a downside to not doing it because it's a very kind of it can be almost like an emotionally unsafe place to be because if you're um if you tend to give people um um leeway and and and rope, some people use it to hang you, um, some people use it to jump double edge, but um I'm always kind of willing to see the the um the the the rope as something that is not going to harm me. And so that does create some um some vulnerability um it has for me, but it becomes, well, okay, but then do you become um on unlike yourself? Do you become an inauthentic version of yourself to protect yourself? Or do you kind of see these ways that you could be um harmed as okay, I learned that. Um, I trusted that person or that way of thinking, and I'm not gonna do that anymore. And then you keep it moving. That's a part of the kind of hard.

SPEAKER_01 16:29

I mean, that's that raw vulnerability. Yeah. It's it's it's it's difficult to do, you know.

SPEAKER_02 16:36

It's difficult for people who are wired like you. There we go again. It's easier for people who are wired like me because it's just the way that I'm wired. I think it's okay. I learned that um moving on. Um, you might lock in and say, not gonna do that again, or that person. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 17:01

It's a little bit more crushing to my spirit. Yeah. You know. Yeah. Could you say a little bit more about how you you mentioned a few minutes ago about society is kind of um geared or supportive more of the way that my framing works than yours?

Life Scripts And Who They Serve

SPEAKER_01 17:20

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 17:21

So one of the ways that I can talk about it, and is this is actually some of what I talk about in in the chapter that I'm writing for the um legacy gifts anthology that we're working on with um Kim Coles and Dr. EJ Johnson is that there is a script to kind of uh quote unquote the best way to live a life. Right? And those scripts tend to be, you know, you do this, then you do this, then you do this, then you do this. You you are born, you go to good schools, you um, you know, um choose a a degree in something that is um, you know, science or engineering or medical or that based. Um you get a good job, you make good money, you get married, you have X number of kids, get a house, right? So there's this whole script that um has been developed. Well, that way of moving in the world is the the is a common structure, even if it's not that structure, any script, and it's a sequential way of move through moving through life, right? Is an example of what I mean by society's kind of setup for people who are more like you, because you tend to be a very scripted person. That's why you are an amazing physician.

SPEAKER_01 18:51

Sequential and because routine is really, you know, you love routine.

SPEAKER_02 18:57

Um, that's you know, you you that is a part of what you love about what your work demands of you is to know what to do. In this situation, you do this. Things may happen. I'm not saying that there is not any flexibility, I'm saying that um structure and and sequence and things like that methodology is your most prevalent way of moving in the world. And that is how the world is is is set up for people like me who, okay, it's not about whether I can become a doctor. That is not something that I would enjoy doing. I like to have um, let's say my work, to have a lot of flexibility. I like to be able to go big, dream big, have big audacious goals, and then challenge myself and my team to achieve those goals. I don't like, um I'm not the most comfortable in situations where um you do the same thing all the time, or in situations where it's kind of a mediocre, in my view, um goal. It's not something that stretches you and makes you uncomfortable. I like to be challenged and feel uncomfortable about what I do. That's why I'm moving abroad. It is something that I, you know, I it comes with its uh, you know, with its fears, but I do it anyway because that's kind of my wiring. So so that's an example of what I mean that um most of the structures in the world are geared more towards people like you. And therefore, it reinforces your belief that everyone is like that. Because it's not just you, it's also, well, if you do it this way, you'll become a doctor and make a lot of money. Everybody wants that.

SPEAKER_00 20:50

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:51

Do you know what I mean? I just have to follow the script. Who wouldn't want that?

SPEAKER_01 20:54

Why wouldn't, like, what's wrong with that person? Exactly. I know someone who who used to say the same thing that if if if he he was able to do it this way, this, all you have to do is work hard, study hard, right, and follow this path and do it. And if you if you veer from it, then there's something wrong with you. Yeah. Because this is the way that it that you get here. Right. Right. And there's no flexibility or no ability to see that there's a different pathway. Yeah. Or that someone wouldn't want to do that. Someone wouldn't want that, and guess what? But then we call them losers, or we say that they're lazy or unproductive. Lacking ambition for all of those things, yeah. So, in other words, we lock into that and then we create a whole story about these people who didn't follow the things that that we followed.

SPEAKER_02 21:51

But Leslie, guess what? What if someone followed the script to a T and it doesn't Because it wasn't designed for everybody to get through.

SPEAKER_01 22:03

And it doesn't work. What's the bell curve? What do you mean there are people at the extreme bell curve?

SPEAKER_02 22:10

Indeed, there are. Exactly. And the people right at the peak, they're like, oh, this is all I had to do. If you do that, you'll be in the same. It doesn't work that way. And so what it does is it makes those people who who have done all of it, right? Me at some part in my life. And for whatever reason, it doesn't work that way. And it's like, then you feel like a failure.

SPEAKER_01 22:36

Yeah. In this world. Yeah. Because society. Right.

SPEAKER_02 22:40

In this way that, and so for me though, it started to be well, um, that didn't work the way that I thought. What else is out there? And then that opened up a huge world for me. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 22:59

At the top after the Ivy League education, after the big corporate job, and this, and you were like, Yes. Wait a minute.

SPEAKER_02 23:06

After the the marriage to the, you know, you look great in a suit. What I thought was security and those types of things. It turns out that um, and so whenever we have these kind of uh scripts, then then it becomes the people who don't follow them at all, the people who follow them, and you know, it it doesn't work out the way that everyone told them it would. Um, and the people who are always kind of pushing against the script, it's still the script that's dominating because you're fighting against something all the time. Right, right. Instead of letting go of it.

SPEAKER_01 23:46

Even if you check the veracity of the script. Right. You're still, it's the script that's the center. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 23:54

Exactly. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_03 23:56

And there are people who just say, I'm so glad it's working for you.

SPEAKER_01 24:14

Like the um the steering control in the car. You know, every time I veered off the script, I came back. Every time it's like, all right, I taught I taught high school for a while. Nope, that's not the script. That's not the script. Bring it back, bring it back.

SPEAKER_02 24:29

Exactly, exactly, exactly. But I find these types of things really fascinating, right? And that's why I kind of kind of stopped. But there were times in my life when I when I didn't, I was just kind of, well, why am I not like those those script lovers? You know, why am I always the one being cantunkerous and fighting against, you know, um, whether outwardly or kind of in internal conversations with myself, why am I always the one kind of pushing against the gourds, as they say, you know, and it it would be so comfortable to just relax into it. And there were periods of my life when I did, when I did just, you know, follow the script. Because guess what? The script many times worse.

SPEAKER_01 25:14

Don't keep out there. This is a wide norm.

SPEAKER_02 25:17

Exactly. But then when you get up there, for me, it was like this is a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 25:25

And then you get that stirring in here and yeah, this is so deep. But Ang, here's my question for you.

Why We Do The Deep Dive

SPEAKER_01 25:34

Okay, only one. Why does this shit have to come up when we're just having a conversation? Why can't we just have a chit chat? How are you doing, Sally? What's up? Why does it have to? Why couldn't you just say, when I said, yeah, everybody thinks like that? Why can't you say yeah?

SPEAKER_02 25:53

Okay. Um you asked the question. No, let me you answer that question for me since you know me so well. Why can I not do that? Tell me the truth.

SPEAKER_01 26:03

Why can I not do that? I needed to say that was rhetorical. Don't answer. You can have really stirred a whole other, at least another half hour of conversation to have a podcast episode about it.

SPEAKER_02 26:18

It did. Well, you're not gonna say why why I can't do that?

SPEAKER_01 26:22

Tell me why I can't do that. Why can't I do that? Well, that's not that's not who you are. It's not who I do. It's not who you are. You do the deeper dive, and it's like you don't turn it off.

SPEAKER_02 26:34

I I don't, and here's the real, real reason because some people, I just don't want to invest the time in. Right? They wouldn't understand, they think I'm nuts, that you might think so too, sometimes. But some people, I do want to invest the time. I do want to say there are other ways to look. Because guess what? You're in this world with other people, and some of them, like me, think differently. And I don't want you to look like a jerk because you're making presumptions about this other person. I'm here for you. I want you to win. I want you to win. I want you to win. So I'm gonna take the time.

SPEAKER_01 27:11

So we both have the same goal.

SPEAKER_02 27:13

Leslie winning. Leslie winning. Exactly. And I'm good with that. I don't want, I'm not gonna, you're not gonna be walking around with spinach on your tooth and me not saying something about it, okay?

SPEAKER_01 27:25

I'm always going to- Ange, remember that reminds me of where we just met, she just mentioned that we're both writing a chapter for Kim Cole's and Dr. E. J. Johnson's book. And I called her up one day and I'm like, Ange, I'm gonna beat you to finish this chapter. I'm gonna finish mine first. I'll be your accountability partner. I forget that I'm talking to a doggone writer, you know, someone who has had a writing practice for years. I call her up and I'm like, Anch, I'm gonna have mine. I'm gonna win.

SPEAKER_02 27:59

And she's literally, this was early one morning.

SPEAKER_01 28:04

And she said, I want that for you. I want you to win.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

You can win. And I'm like, well, where's the challenge in that? What do you mean? You want me to win?

SPEAKER_02 28:16

It's like I poured water up your top shoes.

SPEAKER_01 28:19

It's like when you like tag and you start to run and you don't chase me. Nope. Then where's the fun in that?

SPEAKER_00 28:29

Competition's over. Oh my god, that was hilarious. It really was. You're like, I'm on your side. I want you to win. So go for it.

SPEAKER_02 28:42

How can I help you? How can I help you beat me?

SPEAKER_01 28:47

Oh my goodness. Oh my gosh, right? Isn't this conversation interesting? So

Ask Questions And Leave Room

SPEAKER_01 28:52

I think it begs the question: how is it that we think about things in the world? Do we lock into false assumptions about situations or about folks? I think it's also helpful to say, you know, is it true? Yeah. Does it make sense? Are there any other reasons that this could be going on? Exactly. Exactly. And and then it it forces us to give the other person grace or extend kindness or forgiveness or understanding. Or just ask the person, well, what did you mean by that? How about that? How about that? We we just lock in and assume. I I read this um aud I I read a column in um the New York Times uh every week where it's not the ethicist, but where they ask questions, your social cues, I think it is. Okay, okay. And the there was a um a letter about a woman having a conflict with her sister or whatever, and she didn't want to speak to her sister about it because she said, I know we've been having this debate for years. I know nothing is gonna come from it. So I'm not gonna have this, I'm not gonna talk about it and waste my time.

SPEAKER_03 30:08

Right.

SPEAKER_01 30:09

And the person who wrote in, you know, answered and said, Have you ever talked to her about it? You've made a story about how she's gonna respond before you've even asked her to respond.

SPEAKER_02 30:22

Right. Yeah. And and I think even that, if she responded that way five years ago, has has no one evolved? Right. Have have you not evolved that that doesn't trigger you anymore? And has she not evolved that that is not the way that she would respond anymore? Like, where are you leaving space for people to be different?

SPEAKER_01 30:44

Change or yeah, you know? I just because some of us are always working on ourselves. Yeah. And as we get older I know for myself that fewer things bother me and I'm not as locked into things as I used to be. Ideas and the way that I think. I I do um let a lot more um things go than I used to.

SPEAKER_02 31:08

Yeah. Yeah. You know? Yeah. It's not something. It is something. All right. Well, thank you for always listening and being willing to um.

SPEAKER_01 31:19

I hung up the phone though, that day. I'm like, what the work I'm like, we had to go all the way here, but here we are. And I thank you for it. It you opened my eyes. You're welcome. You're welcome. I'm here for you for that. All right, here we go. All right, babe. This has been another episode of Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn. Brooklyn!