Ep182 She Flip Flopped Again?

Changing your mind can feel like a character flaw, especially when you’ve already said “I’m not doing one more thing.” Then life changes the facts, your schedule shifts, the pressure drops, and suddenly the decision that once felt right needs an update. That’s where The Besties start: one of them decides to add something back into the plan before a major move abroad, and they talk through the judgment that shows up when a pivot is visible to other people.

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Transcript

Cold Open And Trust Issues

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Hey Ange.

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Hey Les, how's it going?

SPEAKER_01 0:06

It's going. Not only is it going, you're going. I'll go in next week.

SPEAKER_00 0:13

I can't, I can't believe it. Uh okay. Listen, I don't I don't know if I like these. Um uh we talk about what we're gonna say, but we don't talk about what we're gonna say. We decide on what we're gonna talk about. And then it's like, I don't know. I think this is a setup.

SPEAKER_01 0:32

I feel a little setup y. I've always been like this throughout our podcast history. You know, I've always said, let's reserve our conversations, the grit or the details of our conversations for the podcast. So when you tell me a sketch of what we might talk about, or I have this on my mind, I'm like, stop right there.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

I know, but I guess most of the time I don't do what I say, I keep going and I say stop right there, and I hang up on you mentally. Mentally, okay.

Joy As A Practice

SPEAKER_00 1:12

Well, guys, um we're doing it again.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

Wait, welcome to another episode of Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

Hello, people. I'm Angela, and that's Leslie. Leslie, my best friend of almost 50 years. We're at 49, and um, we're two free-thinking black women, and we have decided that joy is going to be the center of our lives. It's a journey. It is a journey that we're on. We're sharing it with you. We're hoping that some of our insights help you to start your journey or continue on your journey. Basically, it's it's it requires just kind of shaking up some of the norms and some of the assumptions and some of the belief systems that we've lived under, some of the scripts that we've lived under, and challenging them, not throwing them away, but saying, hmm, hmm. Yeah. Maybe there's a different way to think about this. So again,

The One More Thing Trap Returns

SPEAKER_00 2:13

right? This is kind of a continuation of last week's because I did something. I did something, and I just told Leslie like 10, 15 minutes ago. And I'm like, that I did something.

SPEAKER_01 2:27

Here we go.

SPEAKER_00 2:29

And I want to talk about it because I it's it's it's what's gonna come out is the ways that um our wiring shows up and some assumptions that people can make about people's behaviors and why it might be something now. Why it might be something to think twice about. So I'm gonna be super vulnerable about something.

SPEAKER_01 2:58

So before I continue, before you continue, yes, I want to be super vulnerable. I look like I'm naked.

SPEAKER_00 3:07

Oh, you do, you look like you're Eve.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

I look like I promise you I have clothes on. It was 90 degrees today, and I was driving in my convertible, so I thought that I should wear this sundress, and I really do have clothes on. It doesn't look like it's um like I look like I'm naked. I am not that I have a you see this thing, I do have clothing on.

SPEAKER_00 3:33

This is Black Memory Bessies from Brooklyn. Right, right, right. So what happened was remember, remember that thing that I said I wasn't gonna do in the last episode, and I was so no no no no.

SPEAKER_01 3:47

Remember the thing that you was gonna do, then you weren't gonna do. Right. Okay, that's where we are.

SPEAKER_00 3:54

The things, the thing I wasn't gonna do, and then I was gonna do, and then I wasn't gonna do it. So now it's back on. And I'm gonna be really, really transparent about that. And I want to talk to Leslie because, as we've said, at nauseum, our wiring is really kind of opposite, the way that we do things, the way that we naturally are wired. We are pretty much the opposite. And so I wanted to kind of get her take on this change that I made and to see how it hits her, right? But I think, well, Les, do you want to?

SPEAKER_01 4:38

So, so yeah, I said I was I think the fact that you're tiptoeing into this.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

This is a tiptoe. This is a tiptoe. This is not a tiptoe. Well, see, there you go. There you go. This is not tiptoeing, this is explaining. This is explaining. I said I was going to um add something to my list, and then I was outraged at myself and I said, no, I'm not gonna do it too much. Not one more thing. I'm doing I'm doing too much. I almost bit my tongue off you. You get me so mad. I'm doing too much, I said, and I talked to you guys about it. We talked to you guys, okay. The one more thing trap. Yes, and then I'm now I have now decided to do it, and I would like to explain why and have Leslie react to it because this is kind of I think she may see this as being really loopy and really like loosey-goosey. And I would like to have this conversation out loud with you guys so you can kind of see how these different, it's not really personalities, it's it's it's um uh these natural ways that we do things, how they differ. And okay, selfishly, I would like to give people a perspective, people who are wired more like you, to give people a perspective on how I came to this decision and why you might want to think twice about just thinking that this is chaotic or this is loosey-goosey or whatever words you use. This is you're all over the place. And I want you to to change your perspective on that. Even just a little bit of shift would be worthwhile of me like being so open and honest right now.

SPEAKER_01 6:33

Okay, I will have an open mind. I promise that. Okay, but

Flexibility Versus Routine

SPEAKER_01 6:39

let's hear your mind. I already have some pre-formed opinions. First of all, it's it's it's not you per se, it's me. What you do, you and and we've had podcasts about this in the past. You talk to me about something that you present a cogent argument, let's just say, and I'm all in. I understand you, I feel you, I tacitly, okay. You know, it might be something that I may have some difficulty with in the beginning, but then it's like I'm with you, I'm team Ange. Okay. It what you said made sense. And when you presented to me a half hour ago, like Les, I gotta tell you, I'm gonna do it, you know. And I'm like, what the hell? And that the reason, first of all, you know me, I'm change averse. Yes, all right, and most people know me right by now. I'm change averse, it takes a lot for me. I need the routine, I need a linear progression of things. When when I settle on something and it's right and it makes sense, I need to hold on to that. I have difficulty veering from from things. So now you're telling me, and I'm like, what the hell? I gotta now start trying to do a my so really it's about me because I'm now wow, you expect to bring me along with you, okay, and or not, or or well, you know, you okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:14

Well, that's that's a part of what we can talk about, is what your expectations mean and why it may make you feel this way because the expectation is that I'm gonna bring you along with me versus well, that's because we work as a team, even independent of the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 8:30

I mean, in parenting and this and that, we work as a team, even if we do things differently, right? We usually, you know, in in all most of the things that we do in our lives, we're in a in a team. Um, so I'm now I've now changed my mind, and now I'm doing something that I thought I wasn't doing. It's all about me. Okay, but but okay, so talk me through it.

SPEAKER_00 8:59

Okay, how did this come about? Okay, so first let me say something generally. Generally, I really am I'm very flexible. I'm very flexible, and what that means is I see different ways of getting to a goal. I see many different ways of getting to a goal. Um and that may translate to people who are wired differently, that I don't have any goals, or I um I I I just flit around, or like I said before, loosey-goosey or chaotic and so on. I know people who are chaotic. I am not chaotic, I think quickly, I make decisions quickly, but I don't do it lightly. I make decisions quickly. So I go deep, I see, I make a decision, I go. Okay. And when the assumptions that I use to make the decision change, I see opportunities for, oh, can I do it now? Because things have changed. And other people may say, I will nope, I don't care what happens, I will not change because I made a decision.

SPEAKER_01 10:22

I made a decision, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:24

And that to me is ludicrous. Because what if what if the situation changes? What if you said I'm gonna buy a car that is a sports car, and I made up my mind I'm buying this sports car because I it's just me and my and my partner, you know. We this is

When Strengths Become Liabilities

SPEAKER_00 10:46

you know, we get to drive around with a top-down, all the things. And then the next hour, one of the people say, I'm pregnant. And you now know an hour later, after you've gone to the dealership and picked out your sports car, right? You now know that you're not a good idea. In the car, top down is not gonna work, the baby will fly out. Okay, yes. So now you say the assumption about how many people were gonna fit in this car is different, and now you say, Oh, I'm getting an SUV. Why would you think that that person is crazy and flip-flopping if the assumptions change?

SPEAKER_01 11:31

No, I I I get it, and I guess I'm not I it these things hit me this way because I'm of course not privy to all of the assumptions, yes. So I'm still up here right when there's other stuff going on. So you're gonna tell me what other stuff is going on and where this came. But you know, I was laughing while you were speaking because my mind was wondering. You know, I'm like, I like things like one assumption, I said I'm gonna do it, and this is what I'm gonna do. And golly, and this is what kept me in my marriage, yeah. Oh shoot, oh shoot longer than I needed to stay in that marriage, you know. I was just thinking because I made a commitment and this, and it's like as suboptimal as it was. So I need to get on the team flip-flop. No, no, all right. No, honestly, I'll I'll I I'm gonna give you.

SPEAKER_00 12:36

No, no, no. I mean, that that is that is such a great example, and you know, um, some of the work that I do in in coaching is getting people to not only kind of recognize the way that they're wired, but also recognize that you can overdo that thing, that thing that works.

SPEAKER_01 12:57

You've told me that. You've told me that so many times. It's like, Les, it's so great that you are like this, but look at it in this way. And if you take that great quality of yours to the nth degree, it's like uh it gets to be a problem, and of course, I have to do the same thing, right?

SPEAKER_00 13:21

I have to kind of manage is the word that that I use. I have to manage this gift I have of being really flexible, this way of moving, being really flexible, because like you just said, there are other people that I'm moving in the world with, yes, and how are they experiencing it? And how do I need to bring them in? And the stress, right? Yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 13:46

And worry, you know, it's like then I get concerned and all of this. Exactly. Can you before we move on? Can you give me an example? Because you've given me so many good examples over the years of how great qualities when turn when when they're so rigid can become liabilities, right?

SPEAKER_00 14:06

Right. And can you think of anything of it? Sure, I I I I have many. Yeah, you tell me all the time. But I'm going to just change the word rigid because that is a judge judgy word. And also it's also it's it's I'm flexible, and it can also create issues, right? There are issues related to that that have to be managed. So an example of an of an over overuse thing, I love this one. It was someone that I was married to. Um, that person was a coach, and he was excellent at um making basketball players better because he was able to see that one percent adjustment that they could make to move them from mediocre to you know top top of the line, top notch, right? Um, athlete. And this was his profession, he was known for it, he was great at it. How do you think it shows up in a marriage when someone is pointing out the one percent that you do wrong all the time? No, it it it it doesn't do well, we're no longer married. If you have someone who doesn't know how to turn that down in this situation, right, and is is kind of adaptability, right? And it's and and just to kind of make a final point to to directly answer your question, it is the um, well, this is this is how I am, this is what I'm really good at. Why should I change? Why should I even manage that in any situation? Because this is what makes me great, right? Right. And so the idea that someone me would want that to be changed because I don't want somebody to point out unreasonable, and this is like why would she?

SPEAKER_01 16:19

Everybody else tells me I'm a great coach. Exactly. You know, it's like she's it's Hersh.

SPEAKER_00 16:24

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 16:25

This doesn't get me.

SPEAKER_00 16:26

Another really quick one. As a mother, um, as a single parent at at um at for most of my children's lives, I this kind of flexibility thing, it doesn't work so well with kids who maybe need you to um, you know, just be pretty, pretty consistent, pretty rigid in um in schedules and so on, right? And so they may experience this as being, wow, I don't know what's going on. I, you know, they may experience it as as whiplash. So you it's not that these things are wrong, it is that you have to manage them within the the the situations that you're in.

SPEAKER_01 17:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:18

And so it's it's a it's a it's a kind of turning down than a what it did you do that? What is that?

SPEAKER_01 17:26

I didn't, but I think it sees my thumb.

SPEAKER_00 17:28

So it's just I can never do that. It's a it's a turning, it's it's a knowing how to manage it because you may get so excited about this gift that you have that works great in one situation, that works horribly in another situation. And so you've gotta you've gotta manage that that that gift that is a beautiful thing. And it could be the thing that makes you earn a million dollars. And so you're like, why would I ever change? Well, it doesn't work at home or maybe with your children when someone is just looking for the one percent um thing that you did wrong or the one percent thing that needs to be fixed. Because guess what? The 99% of the things that you're doing right, they don't see. And how how does that work in a relationship? It's it's it's a it's a terrible experience.

SPEAKER_01 18:22

I I get it. It's does that work? That's a good picture, yeah. Yeah, I probably have some other way. You know, the other thing that and and you haven't even told me what's going on yet, and we this is all the preamble, but I'll tell you, one of the things that I'm checking myself about right now is the judgment around you changing. I don't even know, you know, what prompted, you know, the change in your decision and whatever, but I'm saying, like, oh my god, here if she goes again first, she tells me that she didn't, she wasn't gonna do it. It made sense. It's like it's too much. She's gonna relax with her children and this and that. And now she has found time to do something else, and now I gotta do a mindset switch.

SPEAKER_00 19:07

Right, yeah. Right. And um, and I'm aware of that. I had to talk to my partner about it before I decided, right? When I was single,

What Changed And Why Pivoting Matters

SPEAKER_00 19:17

I would just go and do it. Okay, I don't have to answer to anyone, but now that I do, so so I, you know, um, so what what what happened is that there was there were two major trips before the move abroad, right? There was a New York and LA and then the move abroad. And it was gonna be the last time that I was going to be with my children before I left. And so this other thing came up that was, you know, also in LA, but um I was gonna add it to my list. That's where I started. I'm gonna do this thing for all the for all the right reasons. And then I was like, wow, I really was feeling um pressure. I was feeling I need to spend time with the kids. I I I even though I I know I could squeeze this in, I really shouldn't. I really shouldn't. Let me just do that. And that was the right decision then. But what happened now is two things. One, I got some more details about what the what this third thing would entail. Second, I saw one of those children that I was only expecting to see in LA. I hung out with them in New York. Right. I hung out with them in New York and it was it was an amazing time, right? Also, that thing in New York is now behind me. So the the stress and the pressure of adding one more thing, it's not there anymore because that thing is behind me. And so it became well, and this thing that I was planning to do, that I said no to, um, it became more affordable. So these things came together, and then it was like, Well, are you gonna just stick to it because you don't want to do this, you don't want to seem like this, you don't want to, yes. Oh my god about that.

SPEAKER_01 21:26

In fact, I'm the expert of that. I'll say more when you're done.

SPEAKER_00 21:30

Well, I said no. I said I was going to honor my decision making and turn down my judge Judy that was telling me, look at you flip flopping, you're always uh what it what are people gonna think? They're gonna, you know, all of these things. I had to turn that down. And I'm I said, the situation is different, and I get to decide what's different, and I get to talk to the people who. Who are impacted by this directly and get to make this change. And you know, I don't like to refer to myself necessarily as being courageous and things like that. But in these types of cases, that's where I feel courageous, not moving abroad. That's not where I feel courage. Where I feel courage is in honoring the way that I'm wired, managing it um appropriately, and then moving in it and not turning myself down just because, just because I don't want people to think of me that way. That is where I feel really courageous. And so this decision that's interesting. Feels really courageous to me.

SPEAKER_01 22:43

So that's it, it makes sense, you know. It I I get it. I I totally get it. Um I'm just reminded of my wiring and my personality, how, and this is something that I've been, it's been an evolution for me, and it's something that I've been working on with myself because you know how how I am with my word, with

Dependability As An Overcorrection

SPEAKER_01 23:08

honesty, with dependability, and all of this stuff. If I make a decision and if it's a good decision at the time, I'm gonna stick with it, even if it's difficult, because I can do hard things and what have you, you know. And very often I miss the opportunities to pivot to something else because I'm so gung-ho about. Well, I said I'm gonna do this, yeah, you know, and I often wonder where this comes from. And I kind of think that I have an idea. I I believe I grew up imagining that I didn't have a lot of people that I could depend on. Or, you know, who's who was perhaps flip-flopping or not dependable, I believe. Yeah, and I think that I may have overcorrected in that, well, I'm gonna be very dependable. You know how I am. If I say I'm gonna do something, if I have to bend over backwards, and even if it's not the greatest idea, I'm gonna do it because I said I'm gonna do it. You know, I don't often re-evaluate and shift out of something very easily, you know, and maybe that's where it comes from, you know.

SPEAKER_00 24:25

But well, Les, it's it actually because because I know your your instinctive drives, I know your ID, it is how you're wired. It is naturally how you're wired, and it's a beautiful part of who you are. It's it's it's one of your talents that you um you are substance, you are um dependable, um, you are um you're gonna be looking at the risks that other people don't see, you're gonna see them and you're gonna plan based on these risks, and that's one a part of the reason why you want to stick to it because you've looked at the risks, you haven't looked at the things that are.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

And I can tolerate things the the the risk, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:12

Right, and so it is um it is a part of your wiring that is beautiful. It's I a I benefit from that, I'm a beneficiary of those gifts often, very, very often. But you just called out, you just answered the question that you gave me. What about this overuse thing? What does that look like? When you said, and I know that sometimes I miss out on things because I'm so that is where the kind of overuse comes in. Yeah, yeah. When you when when you um and we use the term vul vulnerability, when you um can't even break out of that to see this new opportunity for yourself or others, because it then um would would would indicate to you that you're not dependable.

SPEAKER_01 26:10

That is a but I said I'm gonna do it. You know, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 26:14

Exactly. Yeah. Or the the example you gave before about your deciding to stay in a place that was, you know, really mentally unsafe for you because dependability was more important than even your safety in that regard. Yeah, that's where you see that it can become very um damaging when you don't have a way of of kind of regulating how these ways that you're wired, gifts, talents, whatever word you want to use. I I like wiring, how these this wiring can can move you into places that are are not the best for you, right? And so you have to regulate. Yeah. Yep. You know, in

Work And Love Need Both Styles

SPEAKER_00 27:00

in the workplace, um in my experience in the workplace, most of my all of my career was in tech, right? So um most of the people that I worked with had more of your wiring, you know, um sequential, um, we're gonna do it this way, we're gonna move forward this way. And so for me, coming in and and being the person who says, um why um or this has changed, we have to change the plan. Um it, you know, it was it was often it was often really difficult, but but I could see like but the the assumptions in setting that goal is different now. We can't just keep going down this track because we've been on the track, right? We can't do it because guess what? We're gonna miss the destination, we can't do it, and so that was really I'm learning that now. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:04

You're like, but this shit is going left. Like, what do you need to abandon Will Rogers?

SPEAKER_00 28:11

Yeah, so it's fascinating. This type of stuff is really fascinating for me. And when you know, when you don't do this stuff well, it can create so much conflict because you know, imagine being either colleagues or or spouses or partners, whatever, and you can't see another way of being. What if you only saw me as scatterbrained and we would never have lasted this long in our friendship if that is the way that you framed me?

SPEAKER_01 28:43

Right, sure. Right?

SPEAKER_00 28:44

Or if I saw you as, oh my God, she's always raining on my parade. Lord, let's just can we have some flexibility? Right, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? And so we have to kind of see each of the ways that we're wired as amazing. And for me, it's like Leslie gives me that that kind of um solid footing, that dependency, that that um uh that I really crave because I it's not something that I naturally do well. I I I do it obviously as a parent, especially, I do it because I have to do it, but it's not what gives me energy. That gives her energy. And so isn't it great? I get to do what's energetically uplifting for me, and you get to be what's without me saying stop being that way, yeah, and you saying to me, you know, you're listening.

SPEAKER_01 29:40

We didn't I propose marriage to you a couple years back. It's like platonic marriage, please. But I said like it's hard. You don't have to have sex. I mean, we can just don't even touch me in the bed. Don't touch me, it's just we get each other, yeah. Yeah, we get each other, yeah, and and and I think this conversation is important, not just because we've optimized our relationship and how we relate to each other, we get each other and we understand it, right? But when we partner with other people, you know, especially like our loved, our our romantic partners, yeah, but even in a workplace and whatever, yeah, to have this flexible mindset or this understanding of that differences don't mean um they're not game changes, or it doesn't mean, you know, it it's not antagonistic or not at all. You know what I mean? It's like so synergistic.

SPEAKER_00 30:44

It's so synergistic, actually, right? Because um Leslie is wired for excellence, I'm wired for innovation. You can't tell me that excellence beats innovation or innovation beats excellence. You want both, right? You want both, right? So I can have the big innovative visionary ideas, but I want someone like Leslie to say, okay, but that you can't have that in in in six months, it's gonna take a year because this is going on and that's going on, and you want that person on the ground to make the dream come true. Right. If you're just up there and you're not planning for risks and you're not, you know, you're not thinking about all the people who have to be involved and costs and things like that, the your dream doesn't happen.

SPEAKER_01 31:36

Right. You'll never get there, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 31:39

So we get to, you know, um, I get to kind of broaden the perspective on what's possible, and she gets to, yeah, but somebody's gonna have to plan how it's gonna happen. Yeah, you know what I mean? And I love doing that.

SPEAKER_01 31:55

I'm just good at it, it works, it's like perfect.

SPEAKER_00 31:59

It's perfect, it's perfect. And um, fortunately, my partner is worried like you. So it's just the best, the best, the best thing. And it's the you know, the important part is that um differences are respected, right? And and I wouldn't serve her, right?

SPEAKER_01 32:20

That's it, and it's that differences are cherished, crazy or exactly, or you know, it's like here she goes again, yeah, you know, or the famous, why

Stay Curious And Respect Differences

SPEAKER_01 32:30

would you do it like that?

SPEAKER_00 32:31

Why would you do it like that? How about you know, I'm really interested. Why why did you make that choice? You yeah, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 32:39

Yeah, they're two different responses that get to the same answer and doesn't cause a strife between people, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 32:50

Stay curious, people, stay curious, right?

SPEAKER_01 32:53

Right, you're not beating each other, stay curious, explain to me why, you know.

SPEAKER_00 32:59

Exactly, yes, and and and you know, be like um um be a listener, don't have your answer already kind of carved out, and you know, you're you're listening for the answer, you're not like right, you're trying to learn something that's new too.

SPEAKER_01 33:18

That's hard, yeah. I know that's hard, especially when you think the person you're talking to may be a jerk, yeah, or that they never understand, you know what's harder, what's harder divorce, oh yeah, yeah, that's true. You listen, tell me about it, tell me about it times two, yeah. You're right, it's easier to try to understand them, right? I'll listen.

SPEAKER_00 33:46

Or or or is there more? Is there more? Or at least you know reach that point where it's like, well, this is not gonna work, but you're not at each other's throats. Yeah, you know what I mean? You kind of see that um that it's it's it's not gonna work. So anyway, whoo, I'm hot.

Closing Thanks And Team Energy

SPEAKER_01 34:06

I know we kind of got through that. It's like we kind of made a full circle here. Um like, get the recording equipment.

SPEAKER_00 34:13

What the heck are you talking about? Listen, I wanted Leslie to talk me out of of telling you my business. I wanted her to talk me, like, nah, let's not do that. But nope, it didn't happen.

SPEAKER_01 34:26

No, yeah, you're doing the darn thing, and it's gonna be amazing.

SPEAKER_00 34:34

Yeah, I'm gonna do it. It's gonna be amazing.

SPEAKER_01 34:37

It's gonna be amazing. Where I'm jealous, even, you know.

SPEAKER_00 34:40

Oh Lord, well, that's you, you that's my baseline. No, you you gotta work on that. That's not your wiring, that's just you. It's you don't blame it on your wiring. Bad behavior is not an excuse. So this is good. Okay, okay. All right, okay, thank you. Thank you for um I I know that this way that I am is is a challenge for you. I know that. I I really do. I I I I don't take it for granted that you you adapt. Um that's it. I do. You know, I I don't take it for granted at all. And I also don't take for for granted that um, you know, that I I also listen to you. You you were in my head. You were in my head as I, you know, made decisions about what to do. So it's it's there. As I said, I think about I it's just I do it really quickly. Um, but I was thinking about that and you know, uh all all the things. So yeah, we make a good team. We do, we do have in another 50 years.

SPEAKER_01 35:55

All right, bet. All right, this has been another episode of Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn, Brooklyn.