Ep184 This Writing Thing Ain’t No Joke

Moving countries is one kind of reset. Writing about your life is another.  Angella and Leslie catch up on life in Panama City then talk about what it takes for them to contribute chapters to an upcoming anthology with their friend and editor Kim Coles. The Besties unpack perfectionism, the writing blocks that surprised them, and the practical tricks that finally helped their writing flow to completion.

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Transcript

Panama City Move And Home Setup

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Hey Ange. Hello, hello, hello. Come on.

SPEAKER_03 0:10

It's still the end. But oh, come on say D say jealous. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 0:22

I like this.

SPEAKER_03 0:23

Hey, what's cooking? Good looking. I'm good. I love your background, and that's not a filter. You're actually in Panama City.

SPEAKER_00 0:33

Panama. I am. I am. It's Panama. Panama. Panama. It's not Panama. Pan Panama. It's Panama. That's Panama City. Panama City. Exactly. Sweet and de Panama.

SPEAKER_03 0:48

Yeah, all right. I got it. I got it.

SPEAKER_00 0:50

It's good to be here. And uh, yeah, I just can't believe this is the life that I have right now. Um still have a lot of boxes, still um, but the kitchen is completely set up. It's the heart of the home. It's the heart of the home. And um, yeah, we're working our way through everything. And it's it's it's um uh, you know, when when bins get emptied out, we we've been stacking them in the hallway, and I love seeing the stack bills. Yeah. I know what you mean. And I have to force myself to, oh my god, when when we have to pack up again and go there.

SPEAKER_01 1:37

It's so funny.

SPEAKER_03 1:38

It's so funny you said that because that's just what I was thinking. I'm like, ain't you gonna save the boxes like in a room that you ain't using?

SPEAKER_00 1:48

There is no such room, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:50

But um we'll see how it goes. Who are

Who We Are And Why Joy

SPEAKER_03 1:53

we? Tell the people. Welcome to another episode of Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn.

SPEAKER_00 1:59

Hey guys, I'm Angelin. That's Leslie, my best friend of almost 50 years, and we are two free-thinking black women. And we started this podcast because we have been on a serious joy journey, and we wanted to um share it with you, wanted to encourage you to start one and um encourage you to continue. And so we talk about things that uh give us freedom, you know, re-rethinking some of the belief systems and some of the kind of rules of the road that we've been led to believe. Now that we're in our wisdom phase of life, we understand that things are not always as they seem. And so this podcast is all about that, all the various and sundry things that fall under that category.

Saying Yes To The Anthology

SPEAKER_00 2:51

Um we let you guys know that um we both have agreed to become authors and contribute a chapter to an anthology. So today we're gonna talk about what that process has been like, all the struggles,

Like, Share, And Seek Freedom

SPEAKER_00 3:16

all the things. But before we go there, first of all, please give us a like, share this um this uh episode with your friends, your family, anyone who you think needs a little freedom in their lives and need to kind of see that we're we're doing it.

SPEAKER_03 3:34

Um don't we all don't especially at this age in our 60s? Listen, if you're still in bondage of these old thoughts and behaviors, not bondage, it bounds us up in all kinds of ways.

SPEAKER_00 3:51

Yes. So

Meeting The Editor And The Cover

SPEAKER_00 3:52

let me show you the the the picture of the cover of the book that we are going to be contributing to. Oh, that's beautiful, and that is Kim Cole, as you probably know, one of our dear friends. And she is our editor and has been doing an amazing job giving us feedback and helping us to hone in on our story.

SPEAKER_01 4:24

So pulling me along. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 4:27

Listen, I thought I I thought I knew how to do this. Oh my gosh. Leslie's got submitted way before mine. And okay, things have been going on. I've been doing stuff.

SPEAKER_03 4:38

That's true. You did move out of the country.

SPEAKER_00 4:40

I did move out of the country with with more than five suitcases because y'all saw the suitcases probably. If you haven't seen it already, I'll make sure that we post some of the suitcasage that um I came with, but there was also a cargo ship involved. And those things came too. Yes. No. Um, but anyway, I had a breakthrough yesterday and I finished the last two percent, and I am so relieved. So we're gonna talk a little bit more about what we wrote about. No um, you know, no spoiler spoiler alerts, but we're gonna talk about that and mostly about the process. And I want to hear like Leslie, especially, because um, writing is more my thing than her thing. And that she said yes, and that she said yes. I'm like, here she is again, breaking all of the old ways that she had framed who she was and what she did and what she didn't do and what she's capable of and what she wasn't capable of. She went to fucking medical school at 36, but oh my god, I can't write a chapter. What in the world?

SPEAKER_03 5:57

So first of all, I agreed to do it because Kim Coles asked me. Yes. And I said yes before I had any idea how to do it and what was involved. And you know, so much of what I think about in the way I move in the world is that if my homies think I can do it, I can probably do it. You know, it's like you guys know my abilities way before I internalize them.

SPEAKER_00 6:24

So that is so true. Because that's what happened with medical school too.

SPEAKER_03 6:28

And I believe you guys, you know.

SPEAKER_00 6:29

It's like, what are you doing?

SPEAKER_03 6:31

What are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 6:32

You can do this. I'm like, really? But Mari's so little. And you made me quit my job and go to school full time.

SPEAKER_00 6:42

All the things, and then here you are. How many years later?

SPEAKER_04 6:46

A long time.

SPEAKER_00 6:47

A long time. Decades, decades later.

What Our Chapters Are About

SPEAKER_00 6:51

So, anyway, um, what's your chapter about in summary?

SPEAKER_03 6:57

So it's a summary of an episode in my life and uh prolonged, protracted episode in my life where I gained insight and triumph, triumphed over a hurdle. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:17

You know, um I'm looking for for my summary.

SPEAKER_03 7:22

And and I go into some of the background and of the thinking that kind of kept me stuck and some of the events that happened to help me move past it. Okay. So that's what my chapter's about.

SPEAKER_00 7:39

Okay, so I'm I'm looking for um, there's a a wonderful summary of my chapter that if I can't find it in two seconds, I'm gonna just um tell you. Um my chapter is about the um the way that I broke out of a very scripted life, a specific type of script about how one achieves success, especially as a as a black person, um, especially as a black person from the Caribbean, um, especially as a black person from the Caribbean with um parents who are um activists. And how I started to look at things differently and started to um take off the the layers of my life and um see that there are other ways. There are a lot of alternatives to um determining how you can go through life. And I don't um I don't kind of turn away from having a script. I just think that everyone has their own. Um so I'm not saying don't have a plan, but I'm saying what is your plan? And is your plan the plan, or does it have to be, and how do you kind of seek out the alternatives that um ring true for you? Um and so I talk about how I did that and how I ended up where I am right now, which is um um as a resident of Panama.

Stuckness, Perfectionism, And Self Talk

SPEAKER_00 9:30

I know it's crazy. Let me tell you, Les. I again I almost was in tears at how stuck I had been, even when I wasn't sitting down um writing or trying to write, how much I was in my head about my stuckness in landing and and all of the kind of ways I had to talk myself through, you know, you can do this. What do you what's the matter with you? What you what what are you you know and just kind of it was it was really such a um like a cloud of um I don't know if I would call it doubt because I knew at some point that I would have to get it, and of course I could always reach out to our editor and and and get help, but I was trying to really stop beating myself up and um stop, and I think you're the one that kind of Hey Ange, do you think perfectionism is coming up there? Is that what's going on that you can't? Um, and so I was really in my head. Yes, I was busy, but even in the business, it's like having a turn paper when you're, let's say when you're on vacation or trying to do something else. You your term paper is still there, like it's still living in your head. Right. You don't get a break. You know what I mean? Even if you're doing stuff, you're still in this mode of there's something hanging over. And um, when I got the breakthrough yesterday, I could not believe it. And I'll I'll I'll let you kind of jump in, but uh I'll tell you guys how how the breakthrough happened, what I had to do to um just get really clear, and then after that it flowed.

Not Reading Each Other’s Drafts

SPEAKER_03 11:33

What I wanted to say is, first of all, we've decided not to read each other's chapters ahead of time. Correct. You know that's a little hard for me. I know. Because one, I like your feedback because you know me better than most people do. And similarly, I couldn't really help you get through yours and get to completion because I really didn't know exactly what you were trying to say. I knew the theme and the idea, but I couldn't help you because I didn't have a manuscript in front of me to say, you know, this reads true. This is this reminds me of when you were going through this. Let's how about if you consider this and forget this? You know, I wasn't there to give you that level of input. So that was a little, you know. It's like we want to enjoy the anthology and the finished product and just be awed by each other's writing. And you know, so exactly.

SPEAKER_00 12:39

Yeah, it's like pushing a baby. It's one thing to kind of um live the story, but it's another to read about a particular perspective of the story, right?

SPEAKER_03 12:52

Especially when I've lived part of the story as your bestie. Yeah. Exactly. So exactly. I was there through a lot of it and a lot of the conversations and the emotions of it.

SPEAKER_00 13:03

Exactly. Exactly. I'm particularly interested in like which which which pieces did you um use to construct the story? Because let me just tell you this, and Kim has said this about me. Your story is like a five-series um set of books. Your story is like Harry Potter, or um, you know, it's because so many times, and we have this thing that we've been saying since high school, it's like, oh, this will make a good chapter. Because there's so many things that, and I don't mean just regular Degler things. I mean like, what in the world just happened? Yes, yes, yes. That have happened. So many things. So, like, I'm I'm I'm excited to see which which of those things you decided to build your chapter around.

SPEAKER_03 14:03

Um and obviously, you know, I needed to write about the things that are most prescient in my life. Right. You know, obviously I can go back to, you know, years ago and talk about the trepidation of considering medical school as a single parent or some of the, you know, challenges of being a parent of a person who has had medical challenges. You know, so there's so many perspectives I can speak to about.

SPEAKER_04 14:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:30

But there is, I guess, like an overarching thing that I'm experiencing right now and enjoying and loving, um, and how I got to where I am right now.

SPEAKER_00 14:44

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:45

You know, and it's also as much as we've been podcasting for almost four years, it's really a story I've never told. You know, I've never spoken about, you know, some of the things that I um I mention in this chapter. So I think for that reason alone.

SPEAKER_00 15:06

Get that book. And and and on anthology, I know for me, I had to kind of learn, well, what is the difference between an anthology and a novel, let's say, right? And

Making An Anthology Story Work

SPEAKER_00 15:19

it's not kind of the the fact that we're we're only contributing a a chapter of of several chapters. But the whole idea of an anthology is that there is there there is um this the speaker, there's the reader, there's the um, it's it's not just a retelling. It's a okay, and what did you learn from that? And how do you bring the reader in so that they can leave with not just, oh, this happened to Angela, this happened to Leslie, but what am I um, what is the author specifically saying, right? Um, not just kind of retelling, but explaining um what happened and then what what we learned and what can they learn. So that was a whole other almost uh it's like a different genre. Um I like to do stream of consciousness writing, you know. Well, this wasn't that at all. At all.

SPEAKER_03 16:17

Right.

SPEAKER_00 16:18

I gotta make I gotta make it make sense for everybody.

SPEAKER_03 16:20

It can't just I know what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_00 16:23

I know, I know what I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_02 16:25

You don't do that, clarify this. Exactly. What I was there.

SPEAKER_00 16:30

It it was so funny. And at one point I had to kind of um just just go through for consistency because you know me, I like to to just kind of so I'm using words like layers and levels and climbs, and okay, which one? Which one? Which one? So you you have the problem of not knowing, not having three things to pare down. Me, I have the three things. Okay, choose one.

SPEAKER_01 16:56

Choose one. What? I gotta choose one.

SPEAKER_00 16:58

Okay, I gotta sleep on that.

SPEAKER_01 17:00

Which one is most effective at the time?

SPEAKER_03 17:04

So it was um yeah, you know, I noticed how you got emotional just now in thinking about the process, you know.

The Emotion Of Writing Truth

SPEAKER_03 17:15

And oh my gosh, I really I couldn't have predicted how deep the emotion um that came up for me was. It's so funny because when I had my first live meeting with Kim Coles about it, I cried. I started crying. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

And then she started crying.

SPEAKER_02 17:41

And we're like, what the hell are we doing? We just started laughing at ourselves. It's like, pull yourself together.

SPEAKER_03 17:48

We got a job to do here, you know. And it wasn't the content so much as the fact that I was able to emote on paper. The fact that I could pull it from here to the paper for the first time. I'm not a writer. I'm a I'd say I can write well, but I'm a reluctant writer. I'm not comfortable with it. I'd rather leave the writing to folks like you.

SPEAKER_00 18:15

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:16

You know, so I felt a little like after I'm like, okay, I'm just gonna say I can't do it. I'm just gonna say I can't do it. You know what I mean? And then it's like, okay, Leslie, get quiet. Right. Stop and you know, get out of your head. If she thinks you can do it and she's known you for nearly 50 years, you know.

SPEAKER_00 18:35

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:38

You

The List Method That Unstuck Us

SPEAKER_00 18:39

know what I ended up having to do, and I I'd done a version of this, you know, um, whenever I had gotten stuck, it just this last stuckness was was was deep and long, um, was kind of stepping away from from writing, per se, writing and you know, whatever, um, writing sentences. And I just started um listing out, okay, so what happened? Right? So what happened instead of okay, what am I gonna write about, or how do I pull this together? Or I'm like, what happened? And that's what I did yesterday morning. I just wrote um like a sentence, this happened and then this happened, and then this happened, and then this happened. And like that, I had these components that I could see, okay, the the first thing is where I am now, and the last thing is where the end is, right? And so, how do I either take out or move the things that happened in between so that it all makes sense? And that's what happened. I found a piece in the middle that, oh, you kind of talked about that way up, you know, on page three. Just go into it a little bit more there, and that's what I did. Yeah, I went into it a little bit more earlier on, and then the rest just started to flow out. And I was like, oh my god.

SPEAKER_03 20:20

Right.

SPEAKER_00 20:22

It just really, it just opened up and it made um what I wanted to say. Um, I just I really love it. I love what I wrote. It so has to go through, I think, just one um one more um review, and then hopefully they say, All good. You know, yours.

SPEAKER_03 20:43

So mine is at um one of the editors now. Okay. And I had I had this um fear. It wasn't in a dream, but it was while I was awake, like, what if they hate it?

SPEAKER_02 20:58

What if they say this doesn't make sense? I don't know what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_03 21:03

I'm like, what am I gonna do now? You know? It's like I understand it, it makes sense to me, but who am I? What do I know? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:11

You know, I I kept looking at, well, how many damn times are you gonna write the word I? Like, really? And then it was like, it's about you. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 21:19

All right, this woman right here.

SPEAKER_00 21:22

It was like, could there other okay, I, me, yo. I was so, yeah, it's subconscious about it. Yeah. But it's all worth it because I think that we both have um in in the same way that we're doing this, you know, and and being out there and and living our lives out loud, um, and then sharing the out loudness with people outside of our our own kind of circle. Um I think. That it will really help some people who might see themselves in our stories. And I think so. You know what I mean? And see that there's a path, you know, that it doesn't have to be the ones that we have chosen, but that there is a way out. And sometimes that's that's all you need to know is when you're like, how in the world, or you know, there's no way, and then you see someone um make it through.

SPEAKER_03 22:31

And that's what I was gonna say. I'm just gonna turn off notifications. Sorry about that. Um, I when you said see your way out, sometimes you don't need to see your way out, but rather understand what's going on. Right, right. You know, and that's kind of see your way through, you know. Um and and I think more than the nitty-gritty of the events per se, is what I think is most important in my case. What I walked away most important was the why. The explanation. Because you know, I'm a why person. You know, it's like, but why, but why, but why? And I have an understanding of my motivation, and and that it was my motivation and my thoughts that informed the behaviors and the things, and that's what was most helpful to me, you know, gaining that level of insight.

The Real Reason We Ask Why

SPEAKER_00 23:27

You know what's funny? Um, you talked about why, and um, if you just give me a real short coaching moment here, um, I talk about why too. I I do a lot of why. And it's like, but our motivations for the why are very different. So our behavior of asking why are the same. But why we ask for the why is very different.

SPEAKER_02 24:00

You that's deep. It's deep deep. That's why you're gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_00 24:04

That's a little meta. Go ahead, explain that. So the point is that you you um just looking at someone's behaviors is not enough to know what motivates someone.

SPEAKER_03 24:15

For sure.

SPEAKER_00 24:16

Right? And so you and I both ask a lot of why questions, right? The same behavior. Um, my motivation is um to kind of find the um the the the nuance or to challenge what is. Um, whereas yours, I think, is more getting data. Um, you know, is this the right thing? I want to make sure that the thing that I'm doing, choosing, whatever, is the right thing. That's not my motivation. Right.

SPEAKER_03 24:51

My motivation is confirmatory.

SPEAKER_00 24:53

Exactly. Exactly. Mine is like, okay, what all is going on that you're not telling me, right? Like, what are all the options?

SPEAKER_03 25:02

I want to know, like, so you do that a lot with me. Like, you challenge the stuff. You're like, that's not all. Wait, there's more than that. You know what I mean? What are you talking about? Tell me there's more than that. I know me.

SPEAKER_00 25:17

It's just because it's green. What shade of green? Like, what what why why that one? Um, anyway, um, would you recommend that people take on writing now that you've now that you've done it?

Should Everyone Write Their Story

SPEAKER_03 25:32

Absolutely not. Um what do you mean? Well, let me say this. Okay. It's not for everybody. Okay. And it's not necessarily for me. I think I have a story to tell.

SPEAKER_00 25:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:51

This was really hard for me. Yes. And people, I believe, in order to be authentic, have to honesty. They have to take an honest look at themselves. Otherwise, it could just be uh just words on the page.

SPEAKER_04 26:08

Right.

SPEAKER_03 26:08

You know, and I didn't want to cheapen the process, right? You know, with fantasy or thoughts or whatever, you know. And it required that I really go deep and do work, you know? And not everybody is at that stage. I mean, doing work, it's a decision. You have to be ready for it, and it can be painful.

SPEAKER_04 26:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:33

I mean, you know, I've had a traumatic last couple of years, you know what I mean? And there's also other things going on in my life that perhaps I don't want to reflect on some of these things at this time. So perhaps everybody has a story to tell.

SPEAKER_04 26:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:49

But timing is really important too. So I wouldn't say everybody should do this. You know, I would not have done it, honestly. I would not have done it if I had not been asked and invited.

SPEAKER_00 27:02

And for almost for the same reasons, or most of the reasons that you said, that's why I think everyone should.

SPEAKER_03 27:09

Because in other words, you're just forcing people. I'm just saying, it's like your mom used to force your your son to read. I don't like grandma. She makes me learn.

SPEAKER_01 27:22

She makes me learn.

SPEAKER_00 27:24

He's happy about that now, I tell you. But it's more that um when you think you can't, and then you find that you can. That to me is the biggest dopamine hit that one can have. Yeah. And I want that for everyone.

SPEAKER_03 27:48

Right, but it doesn't have to be in the form of writing. You know, when I was accepted into medical school, that was a great dopamine hit for me.

SPEAKER_00 27:56

It doesn't, it doesn't. Um that's true.

SPEAKER_03 28:00

So writing may not be the vehicle for that hit for everyone.

SPEAKER_00 28:05

Right. Yeah. I I think it's almost like writing or public speaking or things like that, or the types of things that many people say, I can't, and then when they try it, they do. And so that's that's why writing or those types of things in particular, because it's almost like you. You like, oh, I'm not a writer. I don't, well, who said you're not a writer? It's because you haven't written. It's not because you just don't know how, or because it's hard. It's like, okay, you do hard things for breakfast.

SPEAKER_03 28:37

Like, listen, listen, let's check back in November after the book has been out for a month and let's see what happens with it. And then I'll be the one to tell me if I'm a writer or a month.

SPEAKER_01 28:50

Oops, I was wrong. Sorry. It's like the well-known critics that like stay in the OR. Oh my gosh. She needs to stay in the operating room. Don't quit your day job.

SPEAKER_00 29:06

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 29:07

You know, oh my gosh. But there's there's so many ways for self-expression.

SPEAKER_00 29:15

Yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_03 29:16

You know, and I feel I can honestly say I was forced to write. I agreed exact as I said, I agreed to do this before I committed before I really understood what it would take out of me to do. And I think that's a good idea. I had to do it. And um it was it was it was difficult for me.

SPEAKER_00 29:41

Yeah. Yet you had yours submitted and given the green light to move forward way before me.

SPEAKER_03 29:53

I had a deadline. You know how I had to know. You listen, give a girl a deadline.

SPEAKER_00 30:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:02

It's if I can only get my taxes done. They say April 15th, but they didn't say what year. You better get that shit done. Listen, I was at work um uh a c weekend ago or so, and uh I said to the nurse, let me stop talking to you. I need to get my taxes done. She says, You said that the last time you were here, a month ago.

SPEAKER_02 30:33

I've been even talking about it. But anyway.

SPEAKER_03 30:36

Damn, damn. So, could you show the book cover again? It's

Book Release Timing And Closing

SPEAKER_03 30:41

scheduled to be released in October. Both Angela and I each have chapters in this Legacy Gifts, the stories that continue beyond us. So I can't wait for you guys to read the book and give us some feedback and all of that. I'm gonna be talking about it ahead of time. This has been another episode of Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn.

unknown 31:08

Brooklyn!