Finding My Religion
We're a podcast that asks the question, "What do you believe?" We talk with people to find out how they grew up, what they think about today, and where they think they'll be in the future. Faith, religion, and spirituality are all such personal journeys. We're honored to be able to tell people's stories, no matter the belief.
Finding My Religion
Don Phelps: Becoming a Pastor
In episode 3, my Dad and I discuss his life as a pastor. What goes into it? How did he come to that decision?
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Welcome to Season 3 of Finding my Religion. My name is Myles Phelps. Are you nervous about doing this at all?
Speaker 2:A big part of what I want to be going into in my next chapter. A big component of that is willingness to share your story. Growing up, identifying as Christian, I didn't know squat. We're adults, now we're parents. I guess we should be doing the whole church thing, church fire. I could certainly identify that, the alcoholism that was present. It was full blown. What?
Speaker 1:would you tell your younger self Be careful of being tunnel vision. Welcome to the third episode of season three of Finding my Religion. In the last episode, we dug into how my dad got to be a pastor. He was working at a water park and then decided that he wanted to run his own church. He went to school. He learned Hebrew. In this next episode, we're going to be talking about how he was able to keep his faith. How did he help people? What were some of the hardest questions that he received as a pastor? And do dogs go to heaven? All that coming up next. Help people. What were some of the hardest questions that he received as a pastor? And do dogs go to heaven? All that coming up next. All right, Dad, how are you feeling so far? This is episode three.
Speaker 2:I'm feeling good. It's an interesting journey. It causes me to do a lot of reflecting, obviously A lot of it. I don't know that I've done a deep thought process on my journey. It kind of is what it is on a daily basis, but to kind of think back through the years and the trajectory that's brought me here, it's been interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, is there anything that it's helped? Maybe cause you to remember, like just force you to look into some things or anything in particular?
Speaker 2:Really kind of you know the kind of uh, you know cause a lot of what you're doing is asking me kind of the why's behind a lot of that goddamn cell phone. Yeah, I know, you think I would learn by now. Um, you know kind of the why's behind everything. I don't know, I don't know the why's. Sometimes you know it, just it. Just it just organically kind of transpired, happened. So then to be able to kind of sit back and you know, sit back and reflect on it and kind of go well, you know, why was that, or why did I or why didn't I? Again, it just happened organically at the time. But uh, it's interesting to kind of put some thought to it now.
Speaker 1:Cool, awesome. Well, we're kind of getting into the meat and potatoes of a majority of your adult life, especially when you had kids at home, which is you being a pastor, and that's kind of what a majority of my life was is seeing you on the pulpit on Sundays. So this is going to be about you know, how do we get there? I think this is kind of what the most most people want to know is how did we go from being like a manager at a water park to preaching on a Sunday? So I guess where we can start is you know, you know, just to summarize so it you know, I think, where we left off. You know no-transcript mom saying that you, if you could sell the house and everything. But I'm more interested of like you know, you thinking about that before, like you even coming to the point where it's like, oh, this could actually be a career.
Speaker 2:I think for me it was the phrase I always used was you know, I am so enjoying church work. I'm really feeling very fulfilled, I'm feeling very useful, I'm feeling like I'm a part of a bigger picture when I'm involved as a volunteer in church work. And it got to the point where it's like well, I would sure like to be doing this more, but you know, I have a full time job and that was kind of like, oh well, maybe I could do church work as my full time vocation instead of what I'm doing now, because for me to volunteer anymore there really wasn't enough. There wasn't enough bandwidth, there wasn't enough time in the day for me to get any more involved than I already was. So for me it was like a logical transition to well, then, maybe I can do this full time, which began some conversations with my pastor.
Speaker 2:I said, you know, kind of the what if you know if I were really interested in doing this, what's that look like? What's that pathway? Because I really had no clue. I knew there was schooling involved, you involved seminary, but I didn't know how long that was. So then became kind of the research part of it when would I be going to school? What does that look like? Can I, even at my age, even handle the coursework? I mean, I wasn't 63 like now, but I was several years removed from college. So going back to school, is that realistic? How do we, you know, how do we survive, you know, financially? So those, those questions started popping up and I was seeking answers to those.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes sense, I it. It almost reminds me of, like you know, being in love with the game of golf and and wanting to be more involved, and so you become a golf pro. And then you realize, well, there's actually not a lot of money in this and this is more work than I thought there would be.
Speaker 2:That's probably a good analogy to it. Yeah, I mean, you find something you love and really at that point, I love church work, I love being involved, so I love this. How can I continue to do this and still be able to put food on the table and put a roof over our heads?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so this is obviously before the internet and really before I think we had our first computer. Your first year as a pastor yeah, that sounds about right which was like five years, six years after this. So how do you do research in that time after?
Speaker 2:this. So like how, how do you do research in that time? You know it's uh, I got the the uh, the catalog from the seminary and it kind of lays out when the courses are, and I think I had that thing memorized. I read it so much. I was just like what's involved in this? So it was a combination of of reading what materials are out there. There's a lot of written materials on so you want to become a pastor, you know.
Speaker 2:You know we we meaning when I went to school as as a somebody with a family and was leaving us another vocation we were concerned. We were called second career guys. So some guys went to seminary and they came, they went through undergraduate and they were focused on becoming a pastor. So they went through undergrad, then they went to seminary. There were about half of the guys in seminary when I was there that were second career guys. You know, some were far older than me too. I was kind of the middle of, you know, the median, but where I'm getting at there was materials written specifically for possible second career guys. So just reading everything that was out there, obviously the church body had a lot of information Uh, and, like I said, conversations with my pastors. I had two pastors at the time and really that was it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was not like I, you know, I couldn't really go to the library and there wouldn't be anything relevant there. There was no internet, so it's going to be what can I get my hands on? And most of it came from all of it really came from the church body itself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, which is interesting, because you're not really getting a third view on like hey, is this actually the right thing?
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, I mean, obviously I've got friends, I've got friends at work and supportive, but also kind of you want to do what the hell you want to do. You know a lot of just. You know we're right behind you, that's what you want to do. But behind the scenes it's kind of like, are you crazy? A lot of jokes because, again, I was a manager of a water park, so a lot of the jokes were well, when you have your own church, I can't wait to see what the baptismal looks like, you know being a water slide or something. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's actually a good one. Yeah, um, so you mentioned that you know the second career guys like you that you called them was there. What was the most unique job that somebody had that you knew before they went into, uh, into that field?
Speaker 2:Oh man, I'm trying to think of what the most unique was. I mean, it was just across the board, uh, but one that stands out and it was actually a friend of of my brother, so your uncle, uncle Dave, but he was, uh, he was a corporate executive pulling, pulling them big money, uh, and he had, he had headed a couple of years before me. So when I would you know, talking with, talking with my brother about this, he said I actually know somebody who's a high power, big income, career to enter the ministry, enter seminary. And to me that kind of spoke to. Maybe I'm on the right path here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like somebody at that level of their career.
Speaker 2:that's, he's following their passion, following what they want to do. Money aside, you know, as long as you can put food on the table, have a roof over your head, If you're doing what you love and you feel like you have a place, you know you're what you're doing has value, Then you're on the right path. That's kind of how I looked at it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's interesting, I didn't know that. You know to Uncle Dave out of your brothers and, yeah, I didn't know that story. I do remember your brothers coming over at one point and the joke was like what the hell are you doing again? You're doing what, yeah, and it takes four years to do this. Yeah, I mean you, you had to hear that quite a bit. Oh, I really did, I really did, yeah. So let's talk about, just like a quick overview of the process. Seminary in St Louis, missouri, which I mentioned, is, um, maybe the the biggest, uh childhood neglect that you could put on your son, uh, as a Cubs fan, and taking them to St Louis, um, yeah, I survived. What was the process getting in? Uh, we talked a little bit about this in the first episode, but, like, how many years were you there? What you know talk?
Speaker 1:about you know the, the third year, all that good stuff so there's an application process, like you know.
Speaker 2:Any school, any graduate school, had to take the gre, which you know. Uh, you know that math isn't exactly ingrained in our phelps genes.
Speaker 1:Um real quick on that. I mean, the thing that I always tell people is that you know, every single year, from like junior high to high school, the math teacher would come up to me once you're gonna be like, hey, I'm gonna have to call your parents because you're not doing so well, and be like, yeah, cool, they're expecting the call. And I remember you getting the phone call every time and like, yep, yep, he told us all right, thank you that sounds about right.
Speaker 2:Anything else for me, no. So I took the gre and I remember the admissions guy called me and said well, we got the results of your gre and your, your, your reading, your comprehension is, it's off the charts. You know you can do great math. Um, thankfully you don't have to use that a whole lot here. So I mean, kind of a joke was, yeah, I could read, so that was what was the most important thing. But anyway, you go through an application process, you get admitted, uh, and then you spend the first two years on campus, uh, just getting all your basic coursework, really getting that foundational stuff, uh, that you're going to need theologically to to function as a parish pastor or other. You know, it could be chaplain. There's a lot of different routes you can go. But then after the two years you get assigned, as it's the term, as a vicar, basically an intern.
Speaker 2:Okay. So you're going to be sent to a congregation, you don't know where, there's a ceremony that takes place and your name is announced and you know Don Phelps, st Paul, saratoga Springs, new York. So we up and moved, as you know, to Saratoga Springs, new York. As a vicar you are the best way to describe that is as an intern. You're getting to number one. Put into practice what you've learned your first two years. I think most more importantly is then you come back for your fourth year of class, knowing where you still need to bone up to, to really develop some skills, because you've been out, you've been, you know boots on the ground in a parish and if you have a good supervising pastor, they're letting you have a good broad. You know broad experience across the board and what parish life is what you're going to be dealing with. So it's it really makes sense. It's a pain in the ass to have to do that, to have to move that many times, but functionally and educationally it makes sense because you come back for that fourth year and go. I thought I knew all this shit until I did my internship, my bickership, and I realized no, I've still got some work to do here, but you're doing it from a different perspective. You're doing it from somebody who's had some boots on the ground experience, as opposed to your first two years. You're just soaking all this in, not necessarily knowing how it's going to apply in the field. So you do that. So after four years you graduate. So I graduated with a Master of Divinity, so you've got the degree, but that doesn't necessarily make you a pastor, so to speak.
Speaker 2:You are now eligible for what they call a call in the church body. A call is basically a congregation is going to extend you a call to serve as their pastor. The call process is one where you prayerfully consider that and you either feel like you're being led to accept that call or you decline it. That's for when you're already serving in a congregation. When you're coming out of the seminary. There's not a whole lot. You can turn down a call, but it's ill-advised. Basically, you're being given your first assignment. This is where we're sending you. So for us it was Don Phelps, texas District, st John, athens. And yes, I could have turned it down, but you don't. That's where I'm going. That's where you're going for your first call.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I'm assuming if you turn it down you don't get paid right like you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you don't get paid um, and you're really going to have to do some explaining as to why you felt the need to turn that down. You know, because the church body is really saying we have done, you know you have. You have no experience in the field, yet you really don't know where you're best suited. We know the needs in that congregation, we know your skill set, we know your personality.
Speaker 1:We believe that is an appropriate match for you at this time oh, so they're looking, you know, really trying to find the best person, for they really are, yeah they, because you know it's, it does.
Speaker 2:It's a service to the, to the future pastor. It's a service to the future pastor. It's a service to the congregation to have a match. That's not well thought out. Because, maybe I go there for a year and you know they hate me. I hate them, I'm doing a shitty job. My skills are not good for this congregation. Maybe it's a conflicted congregation. Or maybe they're extremely conservative in their worship style. Maybe I'm very contemporary. I mean, those things all have to be taken into consideration sure that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I never really thought about that. I just always assumed it was just like a numbers on excel. Well, they, they, you know as a seminary.
Speaker 2:And the joke is, yeah, they, when they. The council of presidents is the group that gets together and decides who's going to go where. And the joke is there's a dartboard of the United States and I was like here's the, here's the Don Phelps dart, and they kind of close their eyes and throw it oh, st John, athens, texas. There's more that goes into it than that.
Speaker 1:It's really political too.
Speaker 2:I remember right, Because I remember you had a good relationship with the president of the Texas district and he said you, sure enough, I went to Texas. Yep, mom, and I pretty much knew we're going to Texas somewhere.
Speaker 1:Don't know where Right. So you mentioned that you're kind of at the whim of whatever pastor you get in that vicar year, that internship year, and I remember that you had a pretty good pastor that was supportive and I remember he loved our family, we loved him. What was the thing that you had to work on after coming back? What was the biggest gap that you maybe had?
Speaker 2:You know I came into it. I was not raised Lutheran, I was not raised in a biblical family. You know I was not into the Bible as a youth, so I still was getting caught. I mean, there are people in the parish that had more knowledge of the Bible really than I did, because they were just they've been ingesting this and studying this their entire life. I was still kind of playing catch up. I was very functional. I, you know, knew the Greek, knew the Hebrew, but I was not a Bible scholar in my estimation. So I really felt I just need to get a better handle of on the Bible.
Speaker 2:I think that was really, you know, thought my preaching was was good. Uh, my ability to to craft sermons that were not only biblically based but relevant, because that was always a big thing for me. You know I can, I can spout off stuff, you know, for 20 minutes from the pulpit. That's theologically correct, but if it, you know, people leave going. Okay, so what, my my biggest thing was, you know, there always has to be a so what. There has to be something they can put in their pocket and walk out with. I felt I did a good job there. I did a good job one-on-one with people, counseling, advising, consoling, but straight biblical knowledge. Really having a good grasp on that, I think, is where I really needed to do some work, which I did.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that absolutely makes sense, and I have a couple of like vivid memories from this year. I was in first grade. Paige came along. That was a big thing. I got a Game Boy as a result, so that was a good trade-off for me.
Speaker 2:That was a hell of a gift for you for having a little sister.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was pretty cool. Pretty a hell of a gift for you for having a little sister. Yeah, that's pretty cool, pretty cool. Thanks, page. Uh, we actually still have that game boy. It's in my, it's in my closet, do you really? Uh, it's still working. Yeah, I'll actually. I think so, because page had it for a while, I think you know she was. She used it, you know, when she was in grade school and then we haven't tried to turn it on and a couple. Pretty cool, I should have got all the games for it and everything, um.
Speaker 1:But the other thing that I remember is, um, like you had made a rule that and you probably had learned this from from a colleague of like, never using your family in a sermon unless you get, uh, permission from them.
Speaker 1:And I I vividly remember sitting on the floor in that tiny apartment, saratoga springs, uh, I think the news was on and it was like you know, I forget what I think the Oklahoma City bombing had just happened recently, but it was like all you know bad news in quotes, you know things, things around the world happening. I remember I said you know, dad, why is it? Why don't they ever talk about the good news. And then it was like just a light bulb went on in your head and I remember like a couple of days later you were like, hey, can I, can I use that? And then you put it in the sermon of like hey, this is the good news. Like when everything bad is happening around you, this is, this is the good part. So I think you're really good about like taking um what's happening in life, in the real world, and then like turning it into like a good message. Sure.
Speaker 2:Oh, you got a good memory. I don't remember that. I I had a good memory, I don't remember that. I mean, I remember Oklahoma city, but I don't remember the conversation, nor the sermon.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I vividly remember that that's neat. So so you get your first calling in in Texas. How, how nerve wracking is that to be? And I think I asked a similar question last time. But I'd like to dig into a little more about like, like what, what do you do that? That?
Speaker 2:first, first day because you're on your own, you don't have a yeah, you really don't. You, don't you, you really it's. For me it's like anything else in life, whether it's a new job, if I'm walking in and I'm a new leader of a team, it's a matter of just getting to know. People talk less, listen more, you know really. So you start meeting with key people in the congregation and for that congregation they had this is a number I'll never forget 889, because I used it in my first sermon in that congregation because I went through. They've been without a pastor for 889 days. They didn't know that, but I went through and I, as I'm preparing my sermon, I'm thinking, boy, that would be something cool to throw.
Speaker 2:And the point point of the sermon was you know you 889 days and yet you still function. You were still ministering to people. You're still functioning as a congregation, doing the things that you needed to do, because God continued to care for you during those 889 days. So kind of along those lines getting to know the personality of congregation, getting to know the people, getting to know the pain points and don't come in and start making changes. You know again today, I think it's leadership 101. You can come into a position and you start changing things immediately. The uns, the unspoken statement, is where you were doing a shitty job before I got here, which is why I'm having to change everything. So learning, listening, observing, yeah, yeah, uh.
Speaker 1:I mean, four years is a long time to go to school. Um, was there anything that was surprising that you learned after being called to Athens that wasn't in the coursework? Or something that maybe was in the coursework but played out differently in practice?
Speaker 2:I think having Having people in your congregation who are not raised Missouri Synod, lutheran Church, missouri Synod did not come from that background, but yet they're attending and they may be members for whatever reason. But then having the difficult questions asked in like a Bible study, because they're coming from that part of the country most likely they're coming from a Southern Baptist standpoint Well, we don't necessarily sit around the lunchroom in seminary coming up with, well, I wonder what the Baptist I mean. That kind of thing. That was real life, because it's one thing to sit in the confining within the ivory towers of the seminary where everybody eats, sleeps and breathes, thinks alike. All of a sudden you're now in the melting pot situation. These aren't born and raised Lutherans in your congregation. Some are, but a lot aren't.
Speaker 2:So being able to navigate people coming from a different perspective which in one sense is where I think it was my background was helpful because I didn't come from that background as well.
Speaker 2:So I'm able to identify with them a little better and kind of going back to the whole second career, versus what they call the pipeline guys who just, you know, they undergraduate seminary boom, they're a pastor. My view was, you know, while they had a better grasp maybe on some of the theology and some of the Bible knowledge, because they've been tracked on this road for, you know, most of their life they didn't have the what we would call the real life experiences. You know, married, having children, dealing with death, I mean just having a job that's not church related. Some of those things that the second career guys brought in, I think. Some of those things that second career guys brought in I think allowed us to maybe relate a little better to our parishioners, because whatever they're dealing with life-wise maybe I have dealt with that too, because I haven't been doing pastoring my entire life- Right of sales in um and being a pastor because you're you're trying to sell that.
Speaker 1:This is the way you're trying to convince someone that this is the best way for whatever the end result is that you believe in heaven. Um, do you feel like it's a miss that the LCMS church wouldn't talk about? Like, this is what the Baptist believed. This is what a Methodist believed. This is how you would handle this conversation. This is why that we're right and they're wrong.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think we definitely studied their belief system. So I knew what the belief system was of a Southern Baptist or a Methodist or a Roman Catholic, whatnot. So we had the kind of the black and white nuts and bolts of that. But in terms of real life discussions, you know, I think that's where, you know, having some cross denominational dialogue and maybe some seminary where it's not just Lutherans playing the role of Baptist have a real life discussion, uh, and you know, maybe they've changed it and maybe they do that more. But you know, the fear was we don't, you know we don't talk theology with somebody else who does not walk and talk like us.
Speaker 1:Hmm, that seems like a miss.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would agree, I would agree. Yeah, um, so at this point in your life, my mom is still, you know, a part of, you know, our family unit unit. Rather, one of the questions that she had and we talked a little bit about it last episode was why the LCMS church? I think that she struggled, not struggled, but she's always wondered. Like you know, there's so many different options and I I think, just based on the past episode, you know it was just like that was what was most available to you. That was the. Obviously we talked about it being the closest church. Was there anything else that led it to you?
Speaker 2:No, I mean, that's what got my foot in the door. It was the closest one, but at the end of the day, I really felt strongly that the LCMS church stood on firm foundation. In terms of what they believe they're biblical, the Bible is the. In terms of what they believe they're biblical, the Bible is the inerrant word of God. There wasn't a lot of. There wasn't any, from my perspective, any wishy-washiness, so it wasn't like well, believe this, but you can believe that we either stand for something or we don't, and I like that aspect of it. If you're going to believe, then let's be all in on this and not yes, we believe, but we don't need to believe this part of it or that part. We can pick and choose. There was no picking and choosing per se, you know from my perspective.
Speaker 1:You were looking for more concrete answers.
Speaker 2:Concrete answers. And okay, if we're going to say we believe this, then let's don't waver from that. If Jesus is the only way to have a relationship with God, then okay, then stand on that. And they would stand on that. I still respect them for that. I don't believe it today, but I respect the fact that this is what we believe and if it's anything that you know, if there's anything that's that's that is detrimental to that belief system, then that must be bad yeah, how do you feel about that say I know that you don't believe you know really those teachings again, I, I respect, I, I respect a denomination that's that stands and and preaches what they believe as opposed to doesn't.
Speaker 2:And I don't know if that makes sense or not, but what?
Speaker 1:would be an example of the opposite of that.
Speaker 2:I don't want to single any church bodies, but there's church bodies that, well, you can believe that Jesus rose from the dead or not, and that's okay. That's foundational to me. If you're going to be a Christian, jesus rose from the dead, that our sins have been forgiven, that we have a relationship now with God because of that event. If you're going to take that out, then what are you standing on? Then? What is your faith based on? Again, I don't subscribe to that today, sure, but I have much more respect for a church body that says this is what we believe and we stand on this, as opposed to this is what we believe, but maybe not, or you know it's, we can, just we can dismantle it, but still stand. You know it's. It's that foundational stance that we have.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like almost burying the lead. At this time you've got two small kids. Like I mentioned, I'm in second grade and your last year of school, Paige, is like a one-year-old at this time, so I have to imagine that you're thinking more as you're going through. Teaching is like how are you going to raise kids? So, like, what do you remember about how you wanted to raise Paige and I, from like a Christian LCMS perspective?
Speaker 2:I think you know, just thinking back, it was I want to expose you to the gospel. I want to expose you to what I believe is the truth about life, to the gospel. I want to expose you to what I believe is the truth about life. Both firmly believe that faith comes through hearing, so that, as you hear the gospel message, faith is actually being created in you and strengthened in you. So I wanted to make sure you both had the opportunity to hear the gospel to be around it, so that that faith could be, to hear the gospel to be around it, so that that faith could be strengthened and nurtured. So you know, church was important, sunday school was important.
Speaker 2:I wanted because I felt that was and I don't want to speak for mom, but as parents we felt that that's our role, that's a responsibility we have. We didn't subscribe to the. Well, we'll just let them figure out what they want to believe as they get older. We felt that was shirking our responsibility. Again goes to that. If I firmly believe that the only way for you as a child to have a relationship with God is through Christ, then how can I stand back and kind of go, well, we'll let you figure it out Miles, you can. You know you're a second grade or third grade, you know eventually you'll get to a point in life where you can figure that out. Well, god forbid what happens if you get hit by the school bus tomorrow. So now I didn't do my job as your parent, preparing you for that event, so it was a responsibility that we took seriously.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes sense. You and I have talked over the years about the sense of guilt that you've had for, you know, teaching confirmation and like not presenting other options, and I don't want to turn this into a podcast where it's me asking you a question and then me saying, like, well, do you regret that? Because most oftentimes, the answer is going to be yes. But the positives of this is that you've been able to like learn who you are as a person, and you wouldn't be able to have done that had you not gone through this. You and I wouldn't be able to have, like, a really cool open conversation where I'm finding out more about your life. So I want to make sure that I say that and it's not you know, just us going back to like well, do you regret this? Do you regret this? You're at this. You probably would have done something differently, and I think that's interesting. So I don't want this to be like do you regret this? You should have done something different. It's more, you regret it. So, like, what would?
Speaker 2:you like. What about it? Do you regret and like what?
Speaker 1:would you have done different, if that makes sense, I just want you to like understand that.
Speaker 2:No, and I, and I appreciate that and I respect it because you know, I mean, I think any of us, if we're honest with ourselves, if I ask anybody well, would you go back and do something different? Well, hell yeah.
Speaker 1:There's a long list of things that I would do different.
Speaker 2:Can I go back and do it different? No, I can't, I can't. But I do have today and I can learn from, maybe, things that I would have done differently in the past.
Speaker 1:And I think it's how we grow as individuals. Yeah, yeah, I think I mean, for you know me and Paige, like we always knew that our parents loved us and that was the most important Details are a little bit you know less so where it's like you know I would, I'd rather have not had to go to church every Sunday. Yeah, sure, yeah, really really would have liked to have not had to do that. So for for you, like when, when you think about the, the way that religion in general was presented to children, but specifically your children, what would you have done differently? Like if you thinking in 2025, don Phelps, what is the best way?
Speaker 2:You know, I think it kind of goes back to, I think, a previous episode where that aspect of not having tunnel vision, I think I would have and this would have been difficult as a pastor to have done this for my children from a perception standpoint, okay. Well, you don't believe what you're preaching. Now you want your kids to start attending different congregation, different churches and maybe get exposure to some different theological perspectives. That's the answer to your question. I would love to have had you been exposed to different theological presentations, different, some different belief systems. I think that's healthy for all of us. So I think that that's one thing I would like to have done differently.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's completely fair. I mean because it's you know again, we're living in the age of the Internet where you can find this stuff out. You can go virtually and attend a service if you wanted to. But this is kind of before all that, where the way that I grew up was that we're right and you're wrong and there's no like that concreteness that you were talking about. The thing that kind of drove you to the church.
Speaker 2:Very much so. And again, this side of life, looking back, I'm trying to get my words here. We were right. All others were wrong. So if I know in my heart, believe at the time what we believe is right, then why would I want you to go explore anything else that in my heart I know is wrong? That's where I was at that point. If I love you, I love my children, I want what is the best for them and what I believe the best for them is what I in my heart know is right and correct, then I don't want to expose you to stuff that I know is wrong. I'm not there today, but as a parent at that time, that's where I was.
Speaker 1:Yeah, perspective, it's all about perspective. Why are there so many different versions of the Bible?
Speaker 2:There are. I wouldn't know if I would say versions. There's different translations, uh, and where it all began, you know, back in. You know, martin luther was the first one to have to translate. He was german. Uh, at that time the bible was for the well. Even further back, the bible was only what the clergy had access to. They're the only ones and basically it was. We know the bible. It's in a language we can read. We'll tell you what you need to know, don't you? Don't you worry about it. We'll kind of let you know what you need to know martin luther hundreds.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's early 1500s, uh, late 1400s, early 1500s, uh. But martin luther the first, he was a roman catholic clergy who, uh, there was a lot of shit going at the time. There was a selling of forgiveness, indulgences, so forth and so on and he's, he basically says, whoa, wait a second, what? What's being taught? And what I read for myself in the bible? That shit's not adding up, it's not, it's not the same.
Speaker 2:So he went to translate. He translated the Bible into the vernacular of the people. For him that was German, so it was translated from Latin at the time into German so that the common people, the everyday people, had access to it. That's really your first. And so making it available for people to read and understand on their own. That continued to take place. The King James Version was an English translation so that people who didn't know German could read it in their language. So it continues to happen.
Speaker 2:Today we have different translations that most of them are true to the original text. It's just a matter of how can we convey this and maybe in more common language, everyday language, the Revised Standard Version, which was the Bible when I was growing up, there was either King James or Revised Standard, both of those full of these and vows and all that stuff. Well, I remember as a kid and we had a Bible in the house. I started reading and I go this shit makes no sense to me. Yeah, this is not, this is not how I talk. So then you started getting other translations to make it in the language that people can understand.
Speaker 1:Got it and follow up question how many times have you read the Donald Trump version of the Bible?
Speaker 2:Let me think Zero, the one he holds upside down? Yeah, yeah that one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah the one where he uh says his favorite book of the bible is two corinthians. Yep, yeah, just how they said it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, two corinthians, yeah okay, I won't, I won't continue down that road um, how so?
Speaker 1:I mean I? I think the answer to this question is just what we talked about in terms of translation, but why are there so many different interpretations of of what it's saying?
Speaker 2:I mean, it's obviously thousands and thousands of years old written yeah, and when you're in, any time you're translating from an original language. So if you're trying to translate the Old Testament from the Hebrew or the New Testament from the Greek, what it said in Greek, how do you make that true in English? How do you make that to be a correct translation? And sometimes this is kind of a new. There's some words that are in Greek that there is no English version of that. So it's that kind of and that's where the biblical scholars and those who do this, you know how do you, and that's where sometimes it's a literal translation. Sometimes it's a a more nuanced translation, again with the, the point being or the goal being that the reader has an idea of what the original intent was.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's it, it's always. I think as I got older, you know, after after college and started thinking about maybe it's only the past, like five or six years, honestly I've started to think more deeply about, like what the Bible actually said and I think I struggle with, even today, the fact that a lot of congregations will say, um, you know, being gay is a sin, you're not born that way, you choose to be that way, so that's a sin. But then in another passage of the bible it can talk about if a slave disobeys you, that you have to beat them over the rod or beat them over the head with the rod. So, like, how, like as a when you're talking about this book that everything is based on, how do you square when the Bible is at odds with kindness?
Speaker 2:love through seminary. One of the basic principles of hermeneutics, or the studying of the text, is let scripture interpret scripture. So if you see a passage, it's kind of like this makes you turn your head Instead of ruminating in your own head well, is there any place else in scripture where that topic is talked about? You let scripture interpret scripture. The other thing that they would teach is the context. You know, contextually, what's going on in the bigger picture in this book of the Bible Is it, is. It is a literal. You know, book of revelation is a prime example.
Speaker 2:Book of revelation is is apocryphal writing. That was very prevalent at the time. So it is steeped in code and these nuanced phrases not meant to be literal. So the heads of the beast and things like that number, 666, that was all the language that was very typical for apocryphal writing. So that's where the study, that's where the theological study helps you to kind of okay, what's going on in this book? This says this. That contradicts over here. But this was not meant to be literal in terms of how it was written. Yeah, now do I still? Yeah, I mean go ahead. I mean there's still some places where you know your point about homosexuality, I think is a prime example of yeah, there are some definite places, places where the two do not line up.
Speaker 1:It's. I mean, in a way, it's kind of beautiful to to have something that is written by so many different people over so many different years that can then explain itself. However, that's also extremely dangerous when you're like there's, if you're not an expert, you you can interpret, as we've seen, you know, through the last hundred years, and that's where the danger and that's what we see happening in modern day Christianity is.
Speaker 2:You know, there's something to be said for being a scholar and for really doing the deep dive, understanding that piece of literature, understanding what is going on and why this book is literal, why this book is is more apocryphal or or symbolic. But yeah, you can, you know all was said. You can, I can, I can pull anything out of the Bible to back any cause or any thought I have or any opinion I have, and we see that happening a lot.
Speaker 1:There's a really good follow that I think you would like. His name is Dan McClellan. He's a biblical author. He wrote a book the Bible says so. Just a quick author note. I'm an idiot. It's actually called the Bible says so. Pretty simple title that I messed up, sorry, dan. Back to the show. It was number seven, I think, on the New York times bestseller list a couple years ago. But he has a tiktok where, um, he essentially will put up a video of a pastor preaching or somebody you know saying something, and he'll be like hey, this is why this is wrong in a very like monotone, factual way and he points to the exact scripture and like I so appreciate that because it's not, it's not, it's not taking anything else other than like what, the, what the book is saying right, you and I are both big fans of the west wing, but I always think of the the scene with uh president, uh bartlett, where he's confronted by a uh, a very conservative.
Speaker 2:Um, I don't know if she was a reporter or what, but anyway she was in charge of the uh it was an alliance, wasn't, or some group, yeah, yeah. So she's challenging him on uh, on the, on the uh topic of homosexuality, and he just starts script. You know quoting script. Well then, she does that mean I should be beating my wife, when she doesn't? He just goes through a whole litany of things and it's uh, it's, it's good television, it's excellent writing, but it's also spot on accurate.
Speaker 1:True, yeah, and he was. He plays a devout catholic on that yes, exactly, there's also an interesting, uh, dichotomy between those. Yeah, yeah, um. So, getting back to like your, your work as a pastor, what, what kept you engaged in your faith journey? How did you, how did you have the energy and the stamina to, to be the guiding post, essentially for those that were a part of your congregation?
Speaker 2:was fed by this, this overall belief that I was, that I was helping people, that I was having a positive impact on their lives. Um, to be able to teach something and see the light go on. Or to have somebody come up afterwards and you know I better. But you know part of it's an ego-fulfilling prophet. They have somebody come up and say you know the way you taught that I now get it. Well, it's hard to not feel good when somebody says that to you, but then knowing that what I was teaching, in my estimation at the time, was having an eternal impact on them, that's what kept me. That's really what kept me going.
Speaker 1:So not only helping the person in their mind wrap themselves, but helping their soul.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what are some good things?
Speaker 2:maybe that you've taken from your time as pastor going to seminary that you still use today, anything that is like even it doesn't have to be even religious, but anything that that you still, maybe tools in your tool belt that you have I think and I don't know if it's tools from seminary or if it's just more of my makeup but you know, just the ability to have empathy with people, to be able to sit down with them and not not say a damn word, but just to be able to have that unspoken connection to know that I'm here with you. I use that constantly, obviously in the ministry. It wasn't so much what I said, it was just the presence and the unadulterated empathy and concern and care for that person. I think I still use that today and those are skills that I was able to hone even more during my time in ministry. Any kind of interaction with people. I think I look back on on the uh, the building blocks really being. You know my time in the ministry.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, I mean especially in in recovery. I'm assuming talking to people that might be new to recovery or relaxing.
Speaker 2:You know, whatever it might be, I and you've heard me say this a lot, but you know those listening haven't heard this before. But you know I always used to tell people that. You know I loved funerals, right, yeah, I love funerals because as a funeral as opposed to a wedding, a funeral is was a situation where people were hurting. They were and they were looking not necessarily for answers although sometimes it was answers but they were just looking for kind of that, that, that moment of needing to be cared for and comforted. And that was a prime time for me to proclaim what I felt to be was the ultimate of comfort for them. You know, to proclaim the gospel. That was a rubber meets the road event for me.
Speaker 2:Whenever there was a funeral, the flip side of that was a wedding. Weddings are obviously fun, they're joyous, it's a great day for the couple. But many times this is my opinion it was a three-ring circus too. It was about everything other than whatever the message was that I was going to proclaim. That's why I didn't put a lot. I put time into the message but it wasn't long because I knew damn well that maybe two people out of the 200 were actually listening to a word I had to say you got to get to that point. They were waiting for the open bar at the reception and I knew that I wasn't kidding myself. That was not an audience that was ripe to hear something that was going to make an impact in their life A funeral. They were all ears.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you just love, love, loved when people died.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:As a pastor. You were a pastor. For what Was it? Eight years, no, 10 years, 10 years, yeah yeah, yeah, I think it's just shy. 10 um, what was the most difficult question that you ever had to answer? Either in like a bible study or you know people new to the church, any sort of meeting?
Speaker 2:grandpa dies. Grandpa. I had never seen in church, right grandpa, from what my conversations may have been, because I would go and visit grandpa quite a bit. This is in theory. This is an actual person, but and the question would be, after grandpa dies. So grandpa never came to church. I don't think grandpa believed in jesus is's grandpa. Is grandpa in heaven? That's a tough-ass question.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:When you're being asked by the granddaughter or the widow or whoever, and I, you know my pat answer, and that pat sounds like it's trivial, but my standard answer is going to be I have no idea.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we don't know.
Speaker 2:We leave that into the hands of a loving and gracious God. I couldn't say any more than that. You know, I don't want to say well, I'm sure God just overlooked that and he's fine now. I wouldn't say that. But that's a tough question, because what they want to hear is oh, I'm sure your grandpa's in heaven. I couldn't in good conscience say that if I didn't believe it.
Speaker 2:But I also can't say he's not either I'm not god you know, god can do whatever hell god wants to do, so we leave that in the hands of god. You know, yeah, a loving and gracious God. That's all I can do, but that's a tough question.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah. For for a church that is so, uh, inherent in what we've talked about already. On like con concrete answers. That's such a shitty answer you know.
Speaker 2:For for a church that is backed by like hey, this is what we believe and exactly and at the end of the day, we really don't know what was in your grandfather's heart, right, what we don't know, god knows what was in his heart.
Speaker 1:So we leave that person could come to church every Sunday and have you know.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:Freezer or something. Yeah, exactly. Um, oh, I just had a question and I lost it. Oh, it wasn't a question, it was a story. So I think the I mean you're going to feel terrible, but I have to say it.
Speaker 2:So you don't have to if I'm going to feel terrible.
Speaker 1:The thing that I remember as a kid that like shook me to my core and really like I remember telling friends about this right Cause there was this movie that came out called all dogs go to heaven, and a year before that I had heard in Bible study and I don't know if you were teaching it or another pastor was teaching it Uh, but we learned that animals in fact do not go to heaven, and my world was shaken. And then, when that movie came out, I found it my mission to tell all my friends that like hey, by the way, your dog is not actually in heaven, they're not in hell, they just don't exist anymore. But I told Joe that the other day and she was like, oh my God, that had to be traumatic. I was like it wasn't so traumatic, it was just like, damn, that sucks. Like we go to a really, really tough church where, like my cat that passed away is just gone, Just gone. Do you, do you have any memory of talking about pets?
Speaker 2:I don't, but I my view at the time. So it must. It may have been somebody else who was, who gave that message or that teaching, but I, my view was always well, well, if heaven is perfect because I used to answer I mean I would have kids ask me that question yeah, well, if heaven's perfect, you know if it's it's, if it's joy, and you know who's to say. Fluffy isn't going to be meeting you in heaven. I again it gets back to that. I don't know. It's not like I can go to scripture and say dogs will not be in heaven. Thus saith the lord you know, yeah.
Speaker 2:So if it not in there, I can't just make shit up and proclaim what is arisen.
Speaker 1:That's actually in Kristi Noem's version of the Bible. That's actually a solid joke. By the way, that was a pretty good one. And that's a really good answer by you too. I wish that you were around when, whoever was talking.
Speaker 2:I saved you all those years of struggle.
Speaker 1:Good lord, Cool. Well, I think this is a good place to end. Next time we'll talk about the certainty wavering and leaving the church and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we can get away from dogs dying. I'm a little more upbeat, alright, thanks Ed. Thanks Miles.
Speaker 1:I mean, that really was a good joke. Kristi Noem, for those that don't know, wrote a book where she bragged about killing puppies. Anyway, next week we're going to be digging into my dad's life at his second church when we moved to Sycamore, illinois, there was a large church fire which really began his movement away from the Christian faith and in being a pastor. As a friendly reminder, it really helps out the show. If you subscribe to the show, rate the show, review the show on whatever platform you're listening to now. If you have a question for me or any suggestions, always feel free to email me at miles at findingmyreligionpodcom. That's miles with a Y, by the way. And we are all over social media as well Facebook, instagram, tiktok, and you can find all these links on findingmyreligionPodcom.
