Finding My Religion
We're a podcast that asks the question, "What do you believe?" We talk with people to find out how they grew up, what they think about today, and where they think they'll be in the future. Faith, religion, and spirituality are all such personal journeys. We're honored to be able to tell people's stories, no matter the belief.
Finding My Religion
Don Phelps: The Fire
In episode four, we talk to my dad about a pivotal moment in his life as a pastor: his church burning to the ground. This moment sparked a fundamental change in his life, his faith, and his career.
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Welcome to Season 3 of Finding my Religion. My name is Myles Phelps. Are you nervous about doing this?
Speaker 2:at all. You know a big part of what I want to be going into in my next chapter. A big component of that is willingness to share your story. Growing up, identifying as Christian. I didn't know squat, we're adults, now we're parents. I guess we should be doing the whole church thing, the church fire. I didn't know, squat, we're adults, now we're parents. I guess we should be doing the whole church thing, the church fire. I could certainly identify that the alcoholism that was present. It was full-blown.
Speaker 1:What would you tell your younger self? Be careful of being tunnel-visioned. Welcome to season three, episode four of Finding my Religion. Season 3, episode 4 of Finding my Religion. In this episode, we cover some tough topics, including my dad's alcoholism and his ultimate firing from the church that he was so good at running. While my dad and I have worked to have a more open line of communication, it's never easy to talk about his addiction and the loss of his job, which ultimately led to the breaking up of our family. However, I think this episode is important for anyone, but in particular, people that have loved ones that are struggling with alcoholism, or maybe you're struggling with an addiction. I want to give just a word of caution for anyone listening that we talk about subjects regarding alcoholism, addiction, relapses, and if you know anyone struggling or you're struggling yourself, we do have some resources in the show notes. Please take care, dad. How are we doing today?
Speaker 2:I'm doing good. Drury weather can't get out and golf, but other than that I'm doing pretty good. Dreary weather Can't get out and golf, but other than that, doing pretty good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've been trying to get in as many rounds as I can before we do our move from Madison to Chicago. My wife is pretty much a single parent for our dogs right now, so she is definitely the MVP at this point. But yeah, rainy here too.
Speaker 2:I was just going to say. I get an alert when you tee off and I haven't had any alerts today. You know, half the time I can look at my phone and my house is getting another round of golf in.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, I'm not going to share how many rounds, because maybe my employer might listen to this, but there's quite a few on there.
Speaker 2:More than one, more than one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, why is this? Yeah, well, we'll leave it at that. Yeah, my assist yeah well, we'll leave it at that. So last time we talked about getting into the pastoral job that you had for many years in the Lutheran faith and I think where I wanted to start off, because I don't think we talked about, like, what does it mean to be a Lutheran? Like what? There's so many different types of Lutheran. Lcms is what we are a part of, and maybe we touched on this a little bit, but what would be their doctrine for somebody that doesn't even know anything about Christianity?
Speaker 2:Lutheran Church Missouri Synod is a conservative church body. Theologically, their doctrine is centered on the inerrancy of the Bible. So the Bible is God's word, it's divinely inspired, it is without error and see a source and norm for all aspects of faith. Um, that really allows it to be, you know, differentiated from other Christian denominations where the, the, the Bible, is not taken to be the literal word of God and it is not considered to be without error. That's a big difference.
Speaker 1:Got it. So if I think about a Baptist or Methodist church, they are less literal, maybe in God's word. But what does that look like in practice in the LCMS church, maybe compared to some of those other denominations? Lcms church maybe compared to some of those other denominations.
Speaker 2:The other difference would be how the sacraments are viewed. Lutheran Church believes there are two sacraments, that is, baptism and the Lord's Supper, or communion. As opposed to and by sacrament, we would say that God is actually present in the act, so he is coming to you. In water combined with the word, or in the Lord's Supper, christ is actually present Well, I'm going to use the terminology in with and under the bread and the wine. Other Christian denominations who are still, they believe in the Bible to be the word of God, to be erudite, they would view those as more symbolic rights, that Christ isn't present in the Lord's Supper, but we're doing it to remember him. So that's another big difference between, I would say, lutheranism and other Christian bodies, even those that would consider themselves to be conservative.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can never really wrap my head around that as a kid going through First Communion, like we're eating this dude. And there's actually a funny it's Always Sunny episode where they're trying to do good works or something like that and one of the characters, mac, takes the gang to Catholic Mass and they're talking about what communion is and they're like no, you're actually eating the blood of Christ and the body of this guy and Charlie goes. So you're saying this guy comes back from the dead, you celebrate him and then you just proceed to eat the man. I always thought that was funny.
Speaker 1:The other thing I remember about Communion was my grandma and I would go to church pretty much every week and she would call me the day before and say, hey, we're going to early church, we're going to late church and during football season it was always early church so we could go home and watch the Bears game. But if it wasn't football season, we would always look at was there communion or not, because sometimes we would skip that service because communion was always like another 20 minutes A little longer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, it was always 20 minutes, no longer whatever. That sounds right.
Speaker 1:So I think where we left off. 20 minutes no longer, whatever. That sounds right. So I think where we left off. I think we hadn't gotten to your second job when you were pastor and we talked about your first job at a seminary school. Joined the church in Athens, texas. They were without a church for many years. Talk to us how we got to Sycamore, illinois, which was your second pastoral job in the LCMS.
Speaker 2:I you know it came down to. I got a phone call from the congregation St John, sycamore, where you know it's a town that we'd grown up in, town where you'd gone to high school, your sister had gone to high school, where your mom and I had gone to high school and your grandma had gone to high school and it was a congregation where we had gotten married, where your grandparents had gotten married. So obviously a lot of history there and we were known there. We were known in the congregation. Senior pastor was retiring.
Speaker 2:So the call committee just a group of individuals within the congregation that they are, it's like an ad hoc committee to find a new pastor. They reached out to me and wanted to know if I was interested in exploring. You know, the possibility of accepting a call and in the church body by call we mean that's kind of the terminology used for job offer Would I be open to a job offer to this congregation? It's considered a divine call. In other words, the idea is, at the end of the day, it's God extending the call through the congregation and you know, if you receive a call you prayerfully consider that and try to determine that as to the best of your human ability. It's just where God is leading me right now, or or is God leading me to stay where I currently have a call? So that's where the process started.
Speaker 2:I remember I flew up there leading me to stay where I currently have a call. So that's where the process started. I remember I flew up there, I interviewed with the call committee because obviously they're looking for somebody who was a fit to the congregation. They want to make sure that, you know, is my idea of worship just completely off the rails and would not fit that congregation. What are my thoughts on, you know, youth work and things like that. So it's a back and forth Because, again, you know it needs to be a fit for me as well as for the congregation. So we have a conversation and I want to say it was a week or two later that I got a phone call that they had extended me a call and actual documents arrive in the mail and then, you know, your mom and I have, you know, a lot of conversations about it, prayerfully, considerate, ended up, you know, accepting the call. Just felt that was where I was being led at this point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I remember mom. To this day she still doesn't really like the state of Texas, doesn't like heat, so I think she was pretty much on board from the get-go, if I remember right. But what were some of the biggest considerations that you as a family had to talk about? Because I think for people like for me, it's normal that we were able to move. But even the terminology that you used about being called to another organization, that you used about being called to another organization but when I would describe that to friends, I think a lot of people are just shocked that it's like any other job where you are essentially interviewing for another position. That's going to move you and your family and maybe it provides more opportunities. It's a bigger church, maybe a little bit more money, a bigger community. But what were the things that you guys had to consider bigger community? But what were the things that you guys had to consider.
Speaker 2:You know, obviously, you and your sister, you know what's what's going to be best for the family. You know what's going to be best in terms of schools, being closer to your grandparents, great grandparents. So quality of life was a big consideration. You know what. What more could I do at the congregation where I was? Was there things that I still wanted to do in the ministry that maybe would be limited where I currently was? No-transcript, get to be a senior pastor. Larger congregation Income was a little better. So I mean the human aspects of it. I couldn't. Maybe there's guys in ministry who can filter that out. I wasn't able to filter that out. Getting back to my hometown was, was a was a huge benefit as well. So you try to do the the quote-unquote right thing by making it be completely. What do I feel god is leading me to do? But at the end of the day, there's still a humanistic, you know, human element that filters into it and there's just a lot of positives to us.
Speaker 1:Moving to sycamore, yeah, and maybe that's the thought process that you had at the time as, like being a pastor pre-devout christian, you're going to pray on it and that's going to lead you to those humanistic things and that might help tip the scale sure yeah, okay, and that's how you kind of resolve that aspect of you know.
Speaker 2:God wants me to consider my family. God wants me to consider what goals I have in the ministry.
Speaker 1:Do you remember the horse game that we played before we moved?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I do, yeah, yes.
Speaker 1:I remember we were out in the driveway playing horse. You know your mom would always play a game of horse or pig before dinner and you said all right, we're going to play for the move. If I win, we're moving, if you win, we can stay.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I don't know if this is what it actually looked like, but in my memory you look like freaking Michael Jordan with a fadeaway and the dream shake or something, and we weren't even playing one-on-one, but you had this incredible fadeaway and like the, the dream shake or something, and we weren't even playing one-on-one, but you had this like incredible fadeaway and in your follow-through you just looked at me, laughed and said guess we're moving. And then he just walked into the garage and I remember thinking did I just ruin my entire life as a third grader?
Speaker 1:divine intervention right there, haven't made that shot again but I mean, you know really, if I, if I look back, it was really a perfect situation. Like you said, we had grandparents there, got to know my great-grandparents which not a lot of people get to do, got to go to Cubs games and just experience a little bit. You know larger community, we're able to like walk places. The town had sidewalks, which our town in Athens didn't. We were able to walk places. The town had sidewalks, which our town in Athens didn't. We were able to ride bikes to friends' places. It was just a little bit more like a small town feel and it was really a good childhood from that perspective. So I think we made the right move.
Speaker 2:Right, right, and I've never looked back and second-guessed that move, that decision second guess to that move.
Speaker 1:You know that decision, yeah, yeah, I think it was for the best. I mean it was tough to leave friends that I had made, like you know. Like I said, moving so many times, having to restart that process was tough, but I think, looking back it was it was definitely for the best. Um so, when we move and you know you talked about difference in churches and now you're a senior pastor, you have a larger congregation what were some of the things in the first six months that maybe you had to try to overcome from a growth area perspective?
Speaker 2:um, just navigating. You know, there was a well-established senior pastor who was still a member of the congregation, well loved, well respected. So anytime that I wanted to maybe start incorporating some things that were maybe a little different from his worship style, for example, that was difficult to navigate. I wanted to honor and respect the ministry of this man who is still now a member of the congregation but at the same time, the congregation has called me, I am the senior pastor and there's an expectation that I am willing to bring about some change. So, learning how to navigate, that was a challenge Because, again, you don't want to be disrespectful for somebody who has been in that position for a long time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like having a basketball coach that retires and they hire somebody else for the role and that guy's like an ambassador but still wants to tell you how to run the offense, or something like that.
Speaker 2:Right, and he's still sitting in the front row, center court.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yelling at you on the sideline.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, right, right, right.
Speaker 1:So navigating that was difficult. Were there any other differences? You know being in a. I mean it's a different culture from East Texas to the Midwest.
Speaker 2:Very different culture. East Texas, a Lutheran was kind of an anomaly. If you weren't Baptist you were a little bit suspected. I mean that with a great deal of respect, a lot of friends. Still in that area Lutherans were not known. You must be Catholic, you must be Roman Catholic. Being back in an area of the country where, oh yeah, you're, you're, you're a Lutheran pastor, okay and that's. It was more understood. It was just more comfortable. I felt like it was. It was more home than than East Texas was.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that makes sense. I mean, you grew up there and there's also a lot of German settlers that are in the Midwest, especially in Wisconsin and Illinois, and that's all based from Lutheran's coming right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's a congregation that had been around since the 1920s in that town, whereas a congregation in Athens had been around. I think by the time we got there they'd only been in existence maybe for 15, 20 years. Oh wow, existence, maybe for 15, 20 years? Oh wow. So I mean, you know where we moved in Sycamore. That congregation was a significant member of that community a well-known member of that community.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely so. There's a big, pivotal moment in your life and our life and the church's life, and I'll just tell the story first and then we'll get into it. But there was a church fire that happened, and when I say church fire, I still think it's like the second or third, maybe even the first largest recorded backdraft in US history. Like they've studied this in fire departments all over the country, so it was this massive fire burned the whole thing down. It was extremely sad.
Speaker 2:How many years into your position there did that happen? Uh, let's see 99, about three or four years yeah can you just talk?
Speaker 2:about what you remember from that fire, and just you know what happened yeah, I mean, uh, the day before was a sunday, sunday and had a first service that went just normal and I remember. One thing I'll never forget is in the second service, so I think it started at 1030, 11 o'clock, I don't know exactly what time. Shortly into the service I was doing a children's message, and children's message you bring the children. The congregation would come up and I'd sit on the steps at the altar area and have a conversation with them. That was kind of down to their level and usually an object lesson or some real simple lesson that they could take away. And I'll never forget I forget what the Bible passage was that I was teaching on that day, but I'll never forget the message was kind of the catch line of the sermon was going to be expect the unexpected. Wow, I've never forgotten Expect the unexpected. And had the children's message. In the middle of the children's message, a member of the congregation Usher maybe, or he came up and said hey, pastor, there's a fire in the basement. So there were a bunch of guys who were trying to deal with that. So I kind of made an announcement and we you know, church stopped at that point and everybody evacuated. Fire department came, they put it out. There was apparently something related to we had an old pipe organ and, uh, pipe organs are are uh run by or the sound comes through blowers. We had blowers in the basement. Something caught fire, yada yada. They got to put out okay, everything's good.
Speaker 2:The next day I'm at the office in church. Everything is going fine. I remember I was expecting a visit from the you know, the insurance adjuster to take a look at the damages. I left for the day, I don't know, three, four o'clock, something like that, and I guess I should add I at that time I was also chaplain for the uh, the fire department, local fire department. So I had a as part of being a chaplain. I had a fire department pager and got to the house, uh, and the pager went off and gave the address of the structure fire that was in process and it was the address to the church.
Speaker 2:And I've got a memory of opening the door from the garage into the house, saying I'm heading back to the church. The church is on fire. And remember you jumped in, you came with me, we went. It was a bad, bad fire. The ceiling blew off the place. We had a firefighter, seriously injured, trying to enter in the back. I was at the front door with a fire department lieutenant who was also a member of the congregation. He wanted to know if I had keys. I did. I was in my fire department turnout gear and was at the front door trying to gain access for him and others to get in.
Speaker 2:That's when the backdraft occurred and I remember being blown I don't know how many feet, but blown. The force of the explosion blew myself and the lieutenant close to the street and I remember it was an old stone structure and there were all. I looked up and all I could see was black, except for all these stones that had blown out from the wall were laying around me. And the next thing I remember is yelling for you because I knew you had been across the street watching the fire take place. But at that moment I didn't know shit. How big was this explosion? Was Miles injured? Was Miles killed? I was so fearful of that. I remember calling out to you and I forget how. I finally determined you are okay and honestly, the rest of that night is a bit of a blur. I remember being on a fire hose trying to keep adjoining houses from catching fire from it and kind of walking around in shock at that point, because the building was a complete, total loss. Every surrounding agency was involved in trying to get extinguished.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was incredible in the worst way. I mean, I've never seen anything like it to this day, and I remember exactly what you remember. I asked to come to the fire once you walked in from the garage and we mentioned this but you were the fire department chaplain, so you had done trainings for you know, going into burning buildings holding a hose and all that stuff, and you would go to accidents and help out with like therapy for anybody that was maybe killed in an accident and provide support for the firefighters. So you had that experience and I remember you had a light on your pickup truck and so we were going like 60 miles an hour down one of these roads in a really small town in Sycamore and then when it exploded I was actually on the phone with one of my best friends and I remember hanging up.
Speaker 1:I ran across the street and that's when you know you're, you're yelling for me and you had snow all over your face.
Speaker 1:Your helmet was like cockeyed and I think my face probably just appeared for you and then you were like okay, everybody's good.
Speaker 1:But then I remember standing there and just looking around and especially seeing my grandma, who had grown up in this church, just standing there not saying anything, just silently crying, and it was just so sad. It was a sad day for us, for the church, for the community, and I think my memory is after that happened we were in a couple of different places throughout the community because it kind of rallied around us and so we would hold service at random spots. I think the first one was at the high school or maybe we went to a corporate building after that so we were kind of like a church without a home. But I remember a couple months later that's when some of the struggles with alcoholism for you kind of appear and I remember you saying as a kid that the church was kind of the impetus for this and I want to get deeper into that around alcoholism the church fire in your memory that you feel like started your issues with alcoholism?
Speaker 1:or was that what you were trying to tell yourself? Because that was, you know, maybe an easy thing to point to? I mean, because there's a lot of post-traumatic stress written all over that situation yeah, I think it could be.
Speaker 2:You know some of the latter. I don't think. My journey with alcoholism began, you know, with the church fire. I think that just, you know, maybe it's a poor analogy threw fuel on it, yeah, propelled it. Yeah, really propelled it. I think I began, you know.
Speaker 2:I mean, you know, for those not familiar with alcoholism, you know, and our alcohol use disorder, you know, sometimes the question is when did you become an alcoholic? And that's kind of a great, unanswerable question. You know there is an aspect to alcoholism that is genetic and there's certainly there's some family members in my family tree that was either declared to be alcoholism or, looking back on past behavior with some older generations, you could think, yeah, they may have been struggling with it as well. You know, at the end of the day, you know, somewhere along the line in my adult years it shifted from drinking for social events or drinking just to have fun to drinking to cope with life. And somewhere I crossed that line who cope with life? And somewhere I crossed that line, I'm not quite sure where, but definitely progressed from drinking occasionally to drinking daily, to drinking heavily daily.
Speaker 2:And where did I cross the line? I'm not sure, but I do know that the church fire was really a point where I can certainly identify that the alcoholism that was present, the alcoholic behavior that was present in my life, it was full blown. It was like throwing gas on a fire. It really took off at that point, but that wasn't the cause of it. It is certainly is a point in my life where I can say, wow, yeah, it really kicked me in the high gear at that point. Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, I think, as I reflect, yeah, it really kicked me in the high gear at that point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, I think as I reflect on it. I mean I was in high school at the time trying to understand all these new changes happening around me a new church, a dad struggling with an addiction and, to be clear, there's a difference between between, like, the levels of alcoholism. You know, there's people that maybe can function, that are clinically classified as an alcoholic, and then there's like really bad and I'm probably not using the right terminology you can correct me on this but there's like the clinical alcoholism to the extreme, where if you start, you physically cannot stop, maybe until you're dead, and that's what you're having to deal with.
Speaker 2:It's a twofold it's a mental obsession and a physical addiction. The mental obsession, that's where it slips into. You know, I've got to have it, the only way I can function, the only way I can get through. Whatever it is I'm going through Somehow. At the end of the day it comes down to I need to change how I'm feeling Because I'm not able to handle what's going on without something to make me feel better. So you reach for something. I mean, at the end of the day I tell people you know it works.
Speaker 2:You know why do you keep drinking? Because it works. The problem is it's a piss poor solution and it only makes things worse. But you've got that mental obsession and it only makes things worse. But you've got that mental obsession. But then with the mental obsession becomes a physical addiction, where your body physically needs it and that's just. You know to be in those two places the mental obsession, but the physical addiction is just a miserable-ass place to be. You know the days of drinking and feeling good about it or drinking and having fun. You know that bus had left the station a long time, you know, a long time ago. It's now just, it's a life of misery is what it ends up to and it's a progressive disease and it's a fatal disease left, unchecked, left, without some kind of intervention and a change, and a change of everything.
Speaker 1:Really there's going to be, there's going to be a slow, nasty, painful death and we're having this conversation obviously as I drink a beer, so that just seems appropriate. Um, yeah, it's a shitty disease. I mean, there's a comedian out there I forget who it is but he says you know if you have cancer, if you have a another, you know untreatable disease. People rally around you and alcoholism is the one disease that you can still get yelled at for having.
Speaker 2:So yeah, yeah, there's some truth to that too, and I've heard it said. Yeah, I've heard it said that. You know well, yeah, this needs some more willpower. You know the people I know who are, who are, who are recovering addicts or alcoholics have more willpower than anybody I know there's. You know, nobody desires to be an alcoholic. Nobody desires that misery. Believe me, I would have done anything to be able to learn how to drink normally. I would have done anything to just be able to fix myself and stop. Why don't you stop? Oh, okay, I hadn't thought about that, I'll just stop. It's just not that easy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's tough but, to be clear, you're in recovery right now and you're doing awesome.
Speaker 1:Yeah, feeling great, yeah, yeah, I mean it's probably the best I've seen you in my lifetime. So we can get as detailed or not on this topic, it's totally up to you. But what do you remember post-fire, when you start to deal more heavily with alcoholism? I mean it puts a strain on your marriage. Mistakes were made from a personal perspective. What do you remember about that time and what do you want to share about you know, really, the beginning of the end of the job that you had that you're really good at as a pastor.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it really, you know, good question, I have no problem talking about it. It's just, you know it comes down to the consequences. You know there's. You know what we call high bottom drunks and low bottom drunks are, you know, in terms of what does it take to get to that point where you realize I've got a serious problem that I cannot deal with on my own. I need help. And you know, sometimes the lessons just keep getting worse and worse and worse until you get to that point where you realize I'm out of control.
Speaker 2:And for me, there was just a lot of things along the way where, you know, preaching drunk I mean, there were times I was under the influence in the pulpit. I am not proud of that, but that's a part of my journey, that's a part of the reality of what I was going through and doing at the time. At the end of the day, yeah, the, you know, I went through rehab while I was in the ministry and totally supportive of the congregation, but I was, you know, I still was, I was still struggling. I think I was still struggling with myself, not, you know, just not being comfortable with myself and choosing a poor way to try to deal with that? I don't know that I could, necessarily I could have put my finger at the time. What, what was I dealing with? Why was I so uncomfortable with myself? But at the end of the day I was Got to the point where I continued to drink. The church said we've had enough, rightfully so, left the ministry and then continued to struggle.
Speaker 2:After that A couple other jobs and DUI part of my history. So I mean, it just took a lot of pain and unfortunately, you know, the pain that the individual goes through is absorbed as well by the family, the friends, the loved ones who are in that circle. So it's, you know, sometimes called a family disease, and rightfully so, because it doesn't just. You know, part of the alcoholic mindset is one of selfish or selfishness. You know, I'm only hurting myself. I'm only hurting myself.
Speaker 2:And it's only on this side of of the of the addiction where you can look back and go well, that's bullshit. You know you were hurting anybody, anything in your, in your circle, but it takes, you know, unfortunately. You know, for me it took a lot of pain to get to the point where I truly realized this. This is not good. I'm destroying relationships, I'm destroying myself. Um, you know, and thankfully that's not where I'm at today, but that certainly was was the journey that got me to this point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it was a long journey. I mean, this is you know what, almost 20 years ago, that we're talking about this, and it feels like in the last four or five years you were able to uncover that mental side of what you were talking about, like finding out who you are, which we'll get into later.
Speaker 2:Exactly, yeah, yeah, exactly. I think it was just a lot of not liking myself, not happy with who. I was feeling like I was living behind a mask, so to speak. The mask was kind of this happy face with a smile pasted on it, but behind the mask was somebody who was just really struggling with self-identity and who he was and what he was supposed to be doing, and all of that kind of shit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this might seem like a dumb question after some of the stuff you just shared, but did alcoholism skew your view on what was appropriate or inappropriate in the church?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, definitely. I think alcoholism skews your views really on appropriateness, on everything. It just totally distorts your thinking.
Speaker 1:So were you able to discern that at the time, like, even though you know it's not right, I shouldn't be doing this, but I'm, I'm gonna?
Speaker 2:yeah, I, yeah, I think so, but you could always. You know, the life of an alcoholic is one of of deception and dishonesty, yeah and uh, thinking you're smart and everybody else around you and yeah, this may not be right, but you know, I can get away with it, kind of mentality.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I remember your first stint in rehab and the church was kind of rallying around us and being really supportive, but I really don't remember it. After that and I feel like my memory is that I think this is mom's too is to a certain extent we were kind of left out to dry, I mean do you feel like the church offered you fair support?
Speaker 2:Where I think I could have used a lot more support is post-fire. I think I've shared with you before I think maybe I shared it in the first podcast, the interview, the session we had that you know it was many years after the fire that in working with a therapist that she said you know, don, you're, you're suffering from PTSD over that fire. What kind of you know? She was asked. She said what kind of therapy did you receive after, after that fire? I said, well, did you talk with anybody? Did you go through any counseling? No, and she said that was a disservice. You, you know whether you knew you needed her or not. You know, because my pride and ego probably would have been no, I'm good, I gotta. I gotta take care of this church.
Speaker 2:I gotta get this church up and running again and you know, somebody should have been able to step in and go. You, you back up, slow it down here, you, you, you. We need to get you some, some help. First you need to focus on yourself. I want to put all the blame on the church, but I think somebody, I would hope somebody would have said and maybe maybe they've improved since then but there should have been almost a crisis intervention entity within the church body when something catastrophic happens in the life of a church and of its pastor. It's much like when I was a chaplain, when there was a major incident. I remember there was a I don't mean to do too much of a sidebar here, but there was an accident. There was a Little League tournament going on out at the park.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and by the way, I remember this, this was awful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it was horrible and it was a long story short a very bad traffic accident where a young little leader was killed and everybody responding to that accident was deeply affected, as you would think so. But you know the when something like that happens, there is immediately a post-crisis intervention that takes place where there is counseling mandated. You know so, all the first responders, be it paramedics, firefighters, police officers, they are going through group and individual counseling just to try to process that. I think there needs to be something like that for for a congregation, for pastor, when your church blows up, I mean, I didn't know what to do with that, I didn't know how to process that other than just digging into pride and ego and I'm fine, I'm fine. Those two words, I'm fine are the rallying cry of every alcoholic I've ever known. I'm fine, I got this, I'm okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it's an easy distraction if you're able to go to work and do what you've always done.
Speaker 2:Oh most certainly so.
Speaker 1:One thing in talking to mom about doing this is that she brought some things that I had kind of forgotten about, and one was that you were really involved with the community, which I think makes sense, and ultimately losing your job as a pastor made it all that more difficult because you were so public. Like you were a public facing figure in a community. Everybody know you and it wasn't like you were just fired from an office job somewhere. You had a very large presence in clubs and you know we mentioned the fire department and, like I said, everybody in town just knew who you were and you mentioned being able to find yourself later on like who you were. Do you feel like at this time in your life there was a sense of trying to prove your worth in as being as involved as you were?
Speaker 2:I think so. Sure, I really do, because, like you say, I was plugged into the community. I was active in the civic organizations obviously, fire department chaplaincy, a lot of that is yeah, I wanted to present an image. I guess, if I'm honest with myself and everybody else, I present this image of I'm doing good, I am, I'm a champion of this congregation and by gosh we're going to get through this and I'm going to be the one to lead them through it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and that makes sense. So you've also done a lot of work in helping others with alcoholism. Obviously, you've done a lot of work in helping yourself, not only through some of the popular things like AA, but therapy. You started a group called Recovery Dharma, which you started in your area. Let's say you're playing consultant for a church. Maybe there's a leader that is struggling with alcoholism like you did. What would be your approach to try to help that individual?
Speaker 2:You know, I think, well, obviously, if somebody's struggling with alcoholism, at the end of the day they they need, they need to get to a point where they realize they have the issue, because until they realize or I shouldn't say realize it, you know, admit they have an issue, um, until somebody admits they have an issue, there's not a whole lot you can do about it. So really, it's going to get to the. You know, once the individual admits, hey, I got a problem, then there needs to be, there needs to be a mental health, uh, intervention. There needs to be an intervention or a mental health a component of support and encouragement. Um, beyond just saying here's the address for a treatment center, yeah, why don't you go get a couple of weeks of treatment? Come on back, cause I came back from treatment and I jumped right back into it.
Speaker 1:I was just full bore. Yeah, there was no. Yeah, there was no period.
Speaker 2:You know, I don't know, I shouldn't say shame on anybody, but there should have been again. If we want to look back and kind of go where could things be better? And again, maybe things are better right now, today. Maybe there is a component of this. But there needs to be a mandatory mental health intervention component and frequent touch bases and a plan for kind of, what's your plan? Now you're back in the ministry, but what's this going to look like?
Speaker 2:So that we make sure that your sobriety, your recovery program, is paramount, is the number one thing in your life. Because one of the first things you're taught is what you get into. Recovery is your recovery has to be number one because anything you put in front of your recovery, you're going to lose that if you can't maintain your sobriety recovery. So, whether it's family, career, whatever it's going to be, if you put anything above that ahead of the recovery, then you're going to lose all that. You're going to lose your family, You're going to lose your career because you're not working your recovery program anymore. So there needs to be a mental health component and make sure that that recovery program is of paramount importance in your life and in the life of the congregation. The congregation understands this as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, obviously you know again. This is 20 years ago when this happened. A lot more is in the ethos now for therapy. The internet's a lot better for finding resources. All these things have changed. But a part of me wonders if you could put yourself being back as a pastor in a lutheran church. Are there any things? Knowing what you know now that would conflict, would prevent somebody from really digging in and doing the work that you've done? And I guess, like, is religion a blocker to find out who you really are?
Speaker 2:Oh, I see, Okay, I gotcha. Um, I think to a certain extent I'll go on a limb here that you know well pray, prayer. How's your prayer life, you know? Are you relying on God? Are you putting all your reliance in God to help you through this struggle? If not, then maybe you need to be praying more. Help you through this struggle. If not, then maybe you need to be praying more. I think that is kind of, on a very extreme level, how it was viewed at the time. Is it today? I don't know, I'm too far removed from it, but you know the whole aspect. You know mental health is just recently, you know, been kind of. You know we're shedding light on mental health. Mental health is, you know, then, kind of. You know we're shedding light on mental health. Mental health is a mental disease, is a real thing, it's a. It was shunned, it was kind of poo poo for such a long time. Um, so how is the church doing that today? I don't know. I think it's a good question.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'd be very curious about that. Uh, a question my wife actually had. It's a very good one, she's very smart lady. Did your struggles with alcoholism impact your faith, or did your faith impact your struggles?
Speaker 2:I think it's a good question. I think my my, my struggles with my faith, kind of like the fire you know, the church fire was fuel to the alcoholism. I think the struggles that I had with my faith, and not necessarily fully embracing what I was preaching and teaching, I think that led itself to fueling the alcoholism as well. Again, I think it goes into this aspect of really not being comfortable with myself, not being happy with myself If I, if I'm laying in bed thinking, you know, I don't really agree that, you know, homosexuality is, you know, going to damn people, to hell. But then the next day I'm having a conversation with him and I've got my pastor face on and my pastor hat on and I didn't actually wear a pastor hat, just so you know, but you know. So all of a sudden you know it's there's, there's an incongruency in my life and once again, you know you drink to change how you feel. So if I'm feeling all this, why then? You know, what do I do to feel better? Well, for me it was turning to alcohol.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I mean speaking of homosexuality. I remember the most pivotal moment that I think brought me to think about this issue more was there was a gay couple in church and these two ladies had sent us an invitation and I remember you having a discussion with mom because she wanted to go, but you said you couldn't. You couldn't be there, and I don't remember if there was pain in your voice or on your face, but I remember there being some sort of conflict within you that I picked up on, even as a sophomore, freshman or whatever. I was in high school. Do you remember that situation at all?
Speaker 2:I remember that like it was yesterday. Yeah, yeah, I do. And that just how, yeah, how pained I was with having to make that decision, as opposed to, you know, fuck it, we're, we're going, and you know that would have been tough to do Cause that, you know, that could have, that could have actually impacted my men, could have gotten me out of ministry earlier than later.
Speaker 1:So so you think, what would they have done? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I think that could have. It would have, yeah, the church body itself there would have been an issue that I was worshiping at a gay wedding Wow, and if you're there as a participant, you're there, you know you are worshiping. So the very conservative aspect of the church body would have said, hey, that's not good, that's wild. Yeah, it would have been an issue.
Speaker 1:Okay, so we have a bunch of situations that happened and you're finally let go of the church. What was your faith like when this happens and in some of the years that came after?
Speaker 2:Pretty. I mean, initially it was pretty non-existent. I mean I am full-blown, you know, untreated alcoholism, so there really isn't any semblance of anything in my life. I think it isn't until I get, you know, down the road and I get a little bit of sobriety and then I start finding myself, you reaching out again. I think I was living in a community, uh, about 30 miles in, towards, about into away from sycamore and towards chicago, and was living there and there was a lutheran church and I was just gravitate, I gravitated back, um, really from the standpoint of being able to play my trumpet, because that just gave me a lot of, a lot of a lot of pleasure yeah, and that's an easy thing because you know, know it's weekly, you know it's going to happen.
Speaker 2:Exactly, exactly. So sorry, kind of getting back, but again I was still plagued with this oh boy, I just don't, I don't fully believe all that I'm hearing. And so the struggle really kind of started up again. You know, I've had so. So much of my identity was with having first been a Lutheran pastor. Well, being Lutheran but then being a Lutheran pastor, the idea of going a different direction was almost inconceivable to me because it was so much of my identity. So it was almost easier, just to you know, not be involved in any of it, as opposed to maybe going a different, different route spiritually.
Speaker 1:So when we leave the church, I remember you had a handful of jobs afterwards. We were living in an apartment and you had some issues with DUIs and things like that kind of put you on a different path to being involved in like a group home and doing things like that During this time. Like how much did you think about God and your soul and things that you had preached for years and years and years? Or was it just the alcoholism kind of clouds everything else and doesn't really allow the space or room to even think about the word or your spirituality?
Speaker 2:You know, recovery wise, I'm in in a couple of different was on a couple of different paths to where spirituality is a huge component, the idea of God is a huge component. So I found myself gravitating back to which I knew and was trained in and kind of just went to the most, like, oh yeah, yeah, I went to the motions because that's really all I knew.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, in AA one of the pillars is to give oneself up to a higher being.
Speaker 1:And I remember my Uncle, jim, your brother, who was in recovery and ended up passing away from liver failure because he drank himself to death. But he came to visit us when you were having your struggles, took me on a drive and he was, you know, trying to help other people and he ended up driving and we were like going by a gas station and there was this big blue box outside of a gas station or something, and he's like you know you can put your faith in that blue box over there if you want, but I have to imagine that you as a former pastor, there has to be some sense of well, I've already checked that box already. I don't have to do that part of it. So I'm going to focus on other things and maybe AA isn't the one, but it's the most popular and it's not the end-all, be-all. And you and I have had some conversations on the side about my viewpoint on AA, which isn't all that positive, but that had to play a factor.
Speaker 2:Oh, very much it did. I'll never forget my first treatment center and they brought in a group from a 12-step organization to do what's called kind of a bridge group. They're going to come in and kind of talk to you about the program and the expectations and when they started talking about the first three steps and God and so forth, my ego immediately went to yeah, you don't need to be talking to me about this, Let me stop you right there. I'll stop you right there. I am, I am theologically trained, I know Greek and Hebrew. No, it was my.
Speaker 2:My ego just wouldn't, didn't want to listen to it because I knew all that. Well, I didn't know shit. You know, I could have learned a lot from what they had to say in terms of spirituality, in terms of, you know, getting rid of the ego and the pride, and uh, and that was a hindrance for me for a while, I think I was too smart for my own good. I don't think I know I was too smart for my own good. Um, you know, there's people who come into the program who don't know diddly about, you know, religion doing great. You know, for me it was too much, too much knowledge and, uh, you know, somewhat unteachable really at that point in my life.
Speaker 1:How many years did it take to lose that?
Speaker 2:Probably up until maybe three or four years ago. Honestly, it really did, because I was still holding on to that which I had been trained and taught and was living and was preaching and teaching, and that really became, that became a hindrance to me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's interesting.
Speaker 2:It wasn't until I was able to you know, look at some other avenues and look at some other you know ways of looking at the world to where I was able to. You know, it really made a huge. You know and I think for future episodes we'll talk about that but it made a huge. I did a huge shift in terms of my recovery and in my view of life really.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you could see it from the outside. I mean, I don't know exactly when that shift happened, but I know around what year it was, because you're just doing so much better now and you know, I I didn't maybe that was the last you know nail that you kind of had to get out because it was hammered in there so deep.
Speaker 2:I tell people you know when I do I speak at treatment centers and different. You know different places, but you know one thing I usually wound up saying is you know I am 63 years old. I am at the most. I'm the most peaceful and serene I've ever been in my adult life. But do not misconstrue that I'm trying to save my life as butterflies and unicorns and rainbows. But shit happens in life. But I am dealing with it in a healthy way. I've learned how to respond to what happens in life. Instead of reacting, I'm learning to have a little bit of space between when something happens and how I choose to respond. It's just made all the difference and it's just been really in the last few years that I've kind of had that shift occur.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, we're all really proud of you, by the way. I mean, it's been really cool to see that. Yeah, you know, I know it's been tough.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would have gotten there without support of a family. So Well you're welcome, no worries.
Speaker 1:A couple last questions here. So this one is going to be for the West Wing fans, all right. So there's an episode where Leo, the presidential advisor, he's chief of staff. Thank you, yeah, he's struggling with alcoholism and he's doing flashbacks of he's supposed to be at a Bartlett speech but he's so drunk he can't get up because he's gotten into the minibar and he knew he was an alcoholic. So this is a relapse and he gives a monologue and I can't remember the exact things that he says, but he says something to the effect of you know, when you drink, you want to have two, I. But he says something to the effect of you know, when you drink, you want to have two, I want to have 20 and I can't stop. Do you have any recollection of watching that for the first time? Because when that was going on, I mean, that was kind of at the height of when you were probably struggling the most.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Do you have any thoughts, anything that you remember, like oh shit, that's what I'm in.
Speaker 2:Just it, just you. It's and it was, it was. It's more, it's more like looking in a mirror. I think when, when I would hear things like that. You know for and I can't speak to anybody else's journey, but for me, you know, I knew I was an alcoholic before I ever raised my head and said I was an alcoholic. So I, you know, I've heard others in recovery say the same thing. There's a it's not a foolproof test, but it's like you know 10 questions that you ask and you know kind of are you alcoholic? And if you answer you know X number affirmatively, then yeah, you may need to seek some help. I remember distinctly taking that test, checking boxes and adding up the score and going, oh shit, and then you retake the test.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:No, you retake the test. Oh, you go through and check it again. Well, maybe I really didn't have blackouts. Nah, I don't think I did. You retake the test until you get to a passing. See, I'm not an alcoholic.
Speaker 1:It's the denial.
Speaker 2:That goes with the deceit. Yeah, I see. So you really know, far before you actually raise your hand and say, yeah, I need some help. But you know, watching anything on TV like that would be, it's just like looking in a mirror. Yeah, it's confirming what I already know. It's got to be scary About myself. It's very scary, it's very scary. Yeah, the other, you know, if you want to bring up West Wing, I got to go to the other scene with Leo, where he wants to. The press has found out that Leo, the chief of staff, is an alcoholic and he wants to resign. And the president says I got two questions for you. Did you drink yesterday? No, mr President. Are you planning on drinking today? No, mr President, are you planning on drinking today? No, mr President, then I've got no issues with you.
Speaker 1:I've never forgotten that one. I have goosebumps right now.
Speaker 2:Because, as a recovering alcoholic, that one meant a lot to me, because I remember watching that and recovering, going oh yeah, that's really it, that's hope. Yeah, that's exactly right.
Speaker 1:So last question for you I remember when you were kind of at your worst, maybe like seven, eight years ago, not the worst dad, but alcoholic version of that. You know, it was really difficult to find what to do as someone that isn't an alcoholic, that's not in healthcare. If there's anybody listening to this that has a family member or a friend that are that are struggling, what do you? What do you do?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a tough one, you know. First and foremost I gotta be honest is is to take care of yourself. You know, sometimes people can get so enmeshed in in what a loved one is going through that it becomes detrimental to their own mental health. So finding support group for themselves, I think, is real critical. So they can they have people who are going through the same thing that they can talk to and share with. Um, it's, it's tough because there's sometimes where if you have a loved one who is just you know, and it's tough because there's some times where if you have a loved one who is just you know, struggling to the point where they are refusing all outreach and interventions, it's a tough thing. But sometimes you have to just let it go, because until somebody says they want help and they're willing to receive help, you can force them into rehab. You can do all the interventions in the world, but until they're willing to do, you know, willing to accept that help, there's not much you can do. It's a painful thing to sit back and watch, you know.
Speaker 2:The other thing I would say is but never sever, you know. Keep the communication open so when they do reach the point. Keep the communication open. So when they do reach the point if they reach the point that they want help and they'll accept help that you haven't broken that connection to where they won't reach out to you because oh, they just you know they let me go and they want nothing to do with me, so you got to watch from a distance. But still have that love and concern for them and keep the, just keep the. Never have that communication line be severed to where they won't reach out to you. When they get to that point where they're willing to accept your help.
Speaker 1:Do you recommend any resources that you know of that people could look up?
Speaker 2:I, you know, I think any. You know any local treatment center. I think is is. You know, that's usually what I tell people to do Because, again, you're dealing with a physical addiction.
Speaker 2:So if somebody has been drinking and they're drinking alcoholically, they're probably going to need at some point some aspect of detoxification or detox. That's a medical procedure that really is important. That takes place in a medical environment, because somebody who suddenly stops drinking can die from seizures. It's uh, yeah, I've heard it shared. You know somebody who is, who is detoxing or coming off of heroin. Um, uh, wishes they would die, I mean, because it's so painful, right, right, alcoholic can die from withdrawing from alcohol. So detoxing, I think, is just important. You have to call around your community and find out who, who offers detox services, some treatment. Most treatment centers do, or some hospitals do as well, but until they can get the medical aspect of it taken care of and getting them leveled out, you know, then you can start looking at, okay, what options are there. There's outpatient treatment, there's inpatient treatment, but getting in that medical intervention and medical help is the primary concern for somebody at that point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Cool. Thanks for sharing that. You bet Well. Thanks for sharing this part. I know this is not the most fun aspect of your journey, but it's super important.
Speaker 2:But it's my journey.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're not where you are today unless you go through some of this.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Well, dad, from President Bartlett, I feel like it's appropriate to ask are you planning on drinking today?
Speaker 2:No, I'm not.
Speaker 1:Are you planning on drinking tomorrow? That's not'm not. Are you planning on drinking?
Speaker 2:tomorrow. That's not my plan.
Speaker 1:Love it, bartlett on the layout Very good. Thanks, dad. Take care If you're looking for resources on treatment or just how to approach helping somebody with an addiction, or maybe you're going through an addiction yourself you can visit treatmentatlasorg. You type in your location, it'll bring up a whole host of places that are close to you, and you can also dial 988 if you're going through a mental health emergency. As a friendly reminder, it really helps out the show. If you subscribe to the show, rate the show, review the show on whatever platform you're listening to now. If you have a question for me or any suggestions, always feel free to email me at miles at findingmyreligionpodcom. That's miles with a Y, by the way, and we're all over social media as well Facebook, instagram, tiktok, and you can find all these links on findingmyreligionpodcom.
