Don Phelps: Faith Unraveling

In this episode, Myles and his dad Don continue their open and honest discussion about Don's faith journey. After leaving the ministry, Don struggled to find meaning and purpose, as his identity had been so wrapped up in being a pastor. He discusses how he gradually started to question his conservative Christian beliefs, as he was exposed to more scientific perspectives that contradicted his theological training. This led Don to eventually move away from identifying as a Christian, and explore more Buddhist principles as a way of finding fulfillment and meaning in his life. The episode explores Don's internal process of losing his firm Christian doctrine, and how he has found comfort in a more fluid, principle-based approach to spirituality.

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome to Season 3
• 1:14 Life After Ministry
• 6:08 The Universe vs. Scripture
• 12:05 Science and Faith Collisions
• 18:42 Finding New Principles
• 28:30 No Longer a Christian
• 39:56 Episode Closing

Transcript

Myles: 0:03

Welcome to Season 3 of Finding my Religion. My name is Myles Phelps. How are you nervous about doing this at all?

Don: 0:13

You know a big part of what I want to be going into in my next job. A big component of that is willingness to share your story. Growing up, identifying as Christian, I didn't know squat. We're adults, now we're parents. I guess we should be doing the whole church thing, the church fire. I could certainly identify that, the alcoholism that was present, it was full-blown.

Myles: 0:31

What would you tell your younger self? Be careful of being tunnel-visioned. Welcome to Season 3, Episode 5 of Finding my Religion. Before we get into this week's conversation, I wanted to ask you guys for some help. Wherever you're listening to your podcast right now, go ahead and go to the homepage for the podcast and just rate it. If you like it, give it five stars. If you don't give it one, we're looking for just some engagement and some reviews as well to help us figure out where we want to take this next. So if you have any ideas or comments, feel free to leave those and it'll help other people find the show as well.

Myles: 1:14

Last week's conversation was a really tough one for my dad and I. We talked about the church fire that destroyed our family church. We talked about the alcoholism that was put into full swing after that event. We talked about how he knew he was an alcoholic. How did that affect his work life? In the next episode, we're going to be talking about what his life was like after he left the ministry. Was faith present? Has he ever told anybody that he's no longer a Christian? And I had some questions about aliens that I needed answered. All that coming up next. So I feel like I asked you this question maybe last time, but I think it's interesting. After every episode, I feel like we uncover, maybe things that you hadn't thought about for a while. So I'll ask it again how are you feeling to this point? Last episode was kind of a tough one.

Don: 2:06

You know, I've been thinking about it, I've obviously cogitated, but to have an actual dialogue along these lines and kind of follow my progression is it's been very therapeutic for me. So I've, I've gotten right out of it actually, and when I've listened to the episodes you know, typically if I listen to myself, you know I'd be hypercritical and I wouldn't enjoy I'm actually enjoying listening to the episodes Um, that's awesome. Um, it just resonates and kind of, you know, resonates kind of my, my journey and it validates a little bit for myself, uh, that there is some, there's some substance to this and it wasn't. I'm just not all over the place, if that makes sense.

Myles: 2:44

Yeah, yeah, like it was an actual process, versus just crashing into something at the end. Is there anything thus far that you've been thinking about or that has, I don't want to say, kept you up at night, but just things that, like, maybe you hadn't thought about in a while.

Don: 3:02

Sitting in a church fire is always difficult. I wouldn't say it keeps me up at night, but it gets me thinking about it more than I would normally on a day-to-day basis. So you know, and revisiting some of those tougher moments in my life, but again, you know it's one of the things that you learn in recovery is it's. You know your life is like a, you know it's a rearview mirror that if I'm driving down the road I've got the rearview mirror to glance and see what is behind me. You know that is important to have that glance in the mirror, but I can't focus. You know you can't drive down the 88 Chicago reference looking in the rearview mirror. It's not going to go well for you. So that occasional glance behind you know where I've been is is helpful, that's therapeutic and reinforces you know how far I've come and where I am today.

Myles: 3:51

That's a really good analogy. So that's something they talk about a lot in recovery.

Don: 3:54

You said yeah, that's something I saw. That's a I've heard other guys use. It's nothing, it's not I didn't invent it, but yeah, the idea is you don't drive down the road staring in the rearview mirror, but the rearview mirror does have an incredible, you know, critical part to play in our driving. Same with life, I think, I think for any, whether it's recovery or just whatever. It's good to reflect on where you've been, but it doesn't do any good to stay there either and to stare on that and then find yourself buried in the past. You can't, you can't do anything about that.

Myles: 4:23

Yeah, they're in front of you. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, I like that analogy a lot. Um. So last episode we talked about, obviously, the church fire and, um, some of the the issues that came up with with addiction. After that, and I think this episode I want to pivot a little bit to like your life after that. So you've, you were, you were so sure in your faith, you taught other people and now all of a sudden, you don't have anybody to teach. So I guess we can start there, like, what was it like after leaving the church? Um, from like a faith perspective, I know that we kind of touched on a little bit where you had said that it wasn't in the foreground, it was just something that you had did. But like, did you, did you miss it at the time? Was it weird not having people looking to you for for answers and for guidance?

Don: 5:16

Yeah, I mean there was an, there was an ego process there that, yeah, it's. You know it's nice to have people looking to you for guidance, directions and answers. You know I miss that. I miss leading, I definitely miss teaching and I think, if I look back, my faith was kind of so much of my faith was involved in the sharing of it, the sharing of it either in a classroom environment or from the pulpit, and so that was a big part of my faith. That was no longer a part of my day-to-day life. I was just another person in a pew, and sometimes for a former pastor that's tough because you can be I don't know if hypercritical is the word'm listening, looking and listening through a different lens. If I walk into a service, I'm I'm a hyper analytical about how, how, uh, how friendly is a service to somebody who's walking in for the first time? I'm looking everything through the lens of of that, as opposed to just being Joe Schmo and in the pew looking for you know, looking to get fed for an hour.

Myles: 6:19

You're right.

Don: 6:30

Is have there been things that when you used to go to church after being a pastor that you were like, wow, I don't know if I would have done it that way? Oh, all the time, just you know, because you tend to yeah, yeah, I, you know, just I am, and no matter what I'm doing. I was actually at a meeting last night and we got around to the topic of a first comer, a first timer, coming into a meeting and we have to look through the lens of everything we do as somebody who's coming in the door for the first time. Is our language all alphabet soup? Are we speaking in code?

Don: 6:55

The same thing can happen in any environment. It especially happens in a church environment. I'm always sensitive, I was always sensitive to that seeker, that person who's coming in to kick the tires, and you know, sometimes people are walking in looking for a reason to turn around and walk back out, and sometimes you know the church can kind of feed into that belief. So, yeah, I think a lot of times it was from. You know, I was just a little bit critical of wow, this is really tough for a first timer.

Myles: 7:24

Critical of wow this is really tough for a first timer. Yeah, that makes sense. So can you give us just maybe like a broad level overview of like what your life was like? I mean, during this time after the church you go through a divorce from my mom. There was some jobs, what was it? What were you doing?

Don: 7:57

What was life like just from a broad perspective after that would give me fulfillment and also allow me to, you know, have a roof over my head. So there was just a lot of, a lot of searching, a lot of I just I just was looking for, looking for my place in the world, I guess best way of putting it. I was trying to deal with with the addiction issues. I was trying to deal with the aftermath of of addiction issues, trying to get grasp on a new career path. All of that was kind of going on, so at times floundering, at times being successful and at times stumbling quite a bit. Those were some years with some good in them and those were some years with some not so good in them.

Myles: 8:40

Yeah, yeah. What was I mean? Right after you left the church we talked about, like I've already said that you know, faith wasn't really there. It was just like kind of in the background. So, as you're going through this like transformation period of finding out who you are as a person, was, were you thinking about, like, being a Christian? Were you thinking about God and faith that you may or may not have?

Don: 9:08

I was. I think I was thinking of it through the lens of someone in recovery and you know, 12 steps talks about a higher power, and at that point I was very involved in in in 12 step program. Um, so I think I was everything that I, you know, my faith journey was being filtered through my recovery. So the belief was there, but it was just a different flavor, I guess, of the belief, but it was being applied in a different way than it had before. I was so focused on, you know, sobriety and trying to find long-term sobriety and really grasping for that, and so, yeah, the faith became intertwined with spirituality, just trying to find that, that, that ground that would provide me some, some firm foundation in my in my recovery journey. So it was a matter of, you know, using bride, bringing in what I knew, what I had practiced previously, and then, you know, listening to others and now their journey is going.

Myles: 10:09

Did you have certainty the entire time that you were a pastor, In faith in what you were delivering to other people?

Don: 10:19

I had firm belief in the gospel that we are separated from God because of our sinful nature, that the only way to reconcile ourselves to God is through Christ. So I believe the core message, as we've talked about before, we had issues with some of the teaching or some of the doctrine.

Myles: 10:52

I should say of some aspects of Christianity, but no, I would still say I had faith as a Christian, but the faith itself was always there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What does that phrase mean? That we're separated from God?

Don: 11:01

Humanity, humans ended up turning their back on God. Humanity, humans, ended up turning their back on God. The only way to reconcile ourselves to God was through. You know sin had to be paid for. Sin was only payable through death. And you know I could not earn my way back to God through works. There's not enough I could do way back to God through works. There's not enough I could do. But uh, you know, in Christian theology Christ came, lived the perfect life that I am unable to live and then paid the penalty for, for the sins you know, for my sins and all sins that restored to me, restored a relationship to God. Through that, through that sacrifice, got it. I still had belief in that core teaching which I call the gospel?

Myles: 11:47

Yeah, sure, that makes sense. Um so when was the first time that you had the thought that maybe you aren't a Christian or maybe you don't have faith?

Don: 12:03

Great question, aren't a Christian or maybe you don't have faith? Great question Cause I think it was such a gradual process. I you know it, it I can tie it in a lot to um advances in science and just learning more about the world we're in and the universe where we're in, and then comparing that to a conservative Christian theology that states you know, the Bible is the word of God, it is without error. There were seven, you know, seven literal days of creation. You know the world is only 10, 20,000, you know, whatever the number is that a Christian, conservative Christian theology would utilize, as opposed to it being billions and billions of.

Don: 12:42

You know, I heard it explained one time and this may have started me on my slide toward no longer embracing the doctrine. I one time heard a pastor say that carbon dating was God's way of just kind of laughing at humanity. You know, you think you know everything. So I'm going to throw this carbon dating out there, just to throw you completely off, because you know you're going to be going down a rabbit hole. Basically, how it was explained and I thought, wow, that's, that is, if we're, if that's how we're going to explain some of these things, that's, that's pretty weak.

Myles: 13:24

Yeah, yeah, that's, that's dangerous, yeah, that, wow, that's, yeah the. The thing I remember about in school you school, obviously, going to our church. In high school and junior high really too, I felt like I was a real dick to biology teachers, people that were trying to teach about the world, and I remember bringing it up like, well, you teach the Big Bang Theory, why don't we teach creationism along with it? You know the big bang theory, why don't we teach creationism along with it? And then, as I grow up, I see that same thing being said today for conservative christians and it's, it's embarrassing to to think about it, but like that's, that's what I felt like you've been taught you know it.

Myles: 14:11

It's like right, it's what we've been taught, and also it's it's encouraging you to push away other knowledge, very much so, which is it almost makes you a dumber person, like you can still I don't mean to like talk bad about, like people that are Christians, like you can believe whatever you want, but from that perspective, you're pushing away knowledge that is, some people would say, given to you by God to expand your mind and to be able to think given to you by God to to expand your mind and to be able to think there's, there's, there's no, yeah, there's no.

Don: 14:41

There's no kind of taking a look at it. It's like, no, no way, because the Bible says this yeah, some of that kind of those conversations and some of that kind of rhetoric really started me questioning because, again, if my faith is based on this being god's word, you know, my faith is based, founded on this being the inerrant, inspired word of god. That's where the gospel is found. If we're going to, then if we're all of a sudden we're finding that that footing has some weak spots, then what am I standing on? Then it comes down to understanding. Then you're putting human reason into it. Well, at that point then all bets are off. You can make it believe whatever you want think.

Don: 15:42

I've said in earlier episodes, I, to an extent I admire the conservative theologians who stand firmly on that belief, because they're not wishy-washy, they're not saying well, we can believe this if we believe that At least they're saying, at least they're just flat out saying no, this is what I believe, and if it's not in here, it's not to be believed. I appreciate that stance. I don't agree with it, but I appreciate that much more so than a kind of a wishy-washy version of Christian which you believe whatever you want being still to call yourself a.

Myles: 16:11

Christian. Can you just talk about what it felt like in that thought, when you're coming across anything scientific that's going against maybe the gospel, as you say? What did that feel like internally? Was it scary, was it terrifying?

Don: 16:33

Yeah, it was scary, it was a little guilty of boy. I was going down a route that I think may have been wrong and I certainly was teaching, you know, because I was one of those who definitely said if science says something against scripture, then you ignore what science says. And the older I got and the more I read and the more I listened and you know, the more I had an open mind. I realized how can we simply say that everything that comes out of the world of science is bullshit. You know that is not to be believed if it contradicts scripture. I just I don't think you can do that. And when I start down that road then, like I said, it becomes a. You know the chink in the armor. It becomes to unravel, that becomes the loose thread in the sweater. For me that's the phrase I used to use it's a loose thread. You start pulling on that and then what do you have? You just have a. You don't have a sweater anymore, you have a handful of yarn.

Myles: 17:26

Yeah, I wrote a paper. I'm just now remembering this freshman year. This is really embarrassing. In college that was about why climate change and and global warming is what we called at the time wasn't a real and my whole thing was the temperature of the earth and, like you know, did the research on like it was it's bullshit research, but I remember thinking about it and then like the professor um, like pulled me aside and was like I get where you're coming from, but like this is a science class and and like I don't know, I don't know what to do with this. You know, it's like it was like the last year probably, where I was like like abrasive, almost, almost in like what I had been raised in. Do you remember? Like what? The first thing that you read that cause for all these years, you're pushing it away.

Don: 18:31

So how did you get to the point where you're now accepting it or learning more about it, and not saying well, you can't understand it, but being exposed to the enormity of the universe that, in and of itself, you know, our piece of the universe is so infinitesimal compared to the entire universe, but yet all of God's activity is just confined to this little speck in the universe that, to me, it doesn't make sense. It's infinitesimal. You start talking about how many freaking million light years away something is that just boggles my mind. Light years away, something is that's just boggles my mind, all we have in terms of, of our history as people, is confined to this one book that deals with this one little, minuscule component of the entire universe. Um, I, I just have my doubts.

Myles: 19:34

Yeah that's a good one, that that would. That would make me question too. Um did like, do you remember, like what, like where that information came from?

Don: 19:44

like were you just watching something on tv or I think it just started a journey of just what you know, because, again, before I would, I don't think I would have even watched anything like right. I saw a show and I read what the description was. I said, oh, it's gonna be bullshit. I, I wouldn't even, wouldn't even waste. I've wasted my time on it. You know which the core choice of words. But no, I wouldn't even entertain it. I just started exploring.

Don: 20:09

I started stepping outside of my box, um, stepping outside of my comfort zone, pushing myself a little bit, and maybe because I wasn't a pastor anymore, I gave myself permission to do this, whereas perhaps, as a pastor, I felt I didn't have the permission to be going down those roads.

Don: 20:28

I should be focused more on what the truth is that I know, instead of exploring these ridiculous ideas which I probably would have thought at the time. Yeah, so I put my energy where I thought it should be devoted. Once I'm not in the pastorate anymore, then it's like, wow, okay, yeah, there's a lot of stuff out there I've never explored, I never allowed myself to. It would have been frowned on, frankly, right, yeah, it's not like we could sit around in a pastor's conference and be talking about this article or if something else that was just so steeped in science that contradicted scripture, we that wouldn't happen, because or it would be, it would happen with it, with a red pen going through and highlighting where this is wrong because of it goes against this bible passage and this and this and this and this, but there would be no actual open-minded discussion or exploration of it because they're their point of view.

Myles: 21:20

the important thing has happened already, so nothing else can happen that's going to be as important.

Don: 21:27

Exactly so why spend your time dealing with falsehoods, stuff that is not true? That's what Satan wants you to believe. That is not true. That's what Satan wants you to believe. Satan doesn't want you believing in a biblical, inerrant word of God loving God, the Father Jesus as our Savior. He doesn't want you believing all that. So I'm saying this is what this is to stand for. Don't go down those roads, because that is the work of the devil. If you're going to start reading that stuff, studying that stuff, opening your mind to that stuff, that is the work of Satan trying to pull you away from the true gospel.

Myles: 22:06

Wow, did you ever watch the movie the Waterboy with Adam Sandler?

Don: 22:12

I'm not a huge Adam Sandler fan.

Myles: 22:13

I never watched it Well, I know, I know For the younger crowd that was like the movie.

Don: 22:21

My son just gave me a disbelieving look, by the way, that I've never seen it.

Myles: 22:27

One of the big premises.

Don: 22:28

Happy Gilmore. I've seen Happy Gilmore. Okay go ahead.

Myles: 22:32

One of the big premises of the movie is that his mom will let him play football and he always say, uh, bobby, football is the devil, and so I don't know why. It reminded me of that, but it's similar. I mean, it's like you can't go out and find a new thing because it almost for you. It. It feels like the like you had knowledge handcuffs as a pastor and then when you weren't a pastor anymore, it sucked. It was so traumatic and tough and hard. Everything you had known has kind of been blown up, but you have an opportunity to maybe seek different things that you didn't have the opportunity for because of your position. Exactly, yeah, I think so. We're talking about the universe. So I just had a question pop into my mind what would the LC put your, your, your pastor shoes back on? What would the LCMS church say about aliens? How would they answer that question? Do aliens exist?

Don: 23:28

Yeah, I think a more, a very conservative LCS probably say you know what God created is contained within scripture. So no, somebody who maybe will be a little more on the liberal spectrum might say there are things that God could have done that he just didn't want us to know about. You know, he wanted us to know about what's in here, what's in scripture. He wanted us to know this. But we don't have all the. All the answers to the entire world are not contained in scripture. Interesting it's. The purpose of scripture is to point us toward Christ.

Myles: 24:12

Yeah, it was always frustrating for me as a kid, cause I remember every once in a while I would sit in on an adult Bible study which you taught, and you were really good at it, like you. I don't know if I've said that so far, but like you were very good at what you did and you were a great teacher. And one of the lessons that you had given was about the Holy Trinity, and if you're not a Christian, it's basically the Father, son and the Holy Spirit. They're three separate entities, but they're also all one, and you would try to explain this.

Myles: 24:39

And once it got to a certain point where it's not explainable anymore, I remember you saying well, there's also a part of this that we're not supposed to understand and that never sat well with me, because I'm like what do you mean? We're not supposed to understand it, like we're supposed to be following this and I'm not supposed to understand it. So then I just have to accept everything that I don't understand as something that I'm not meant to, because in my human brain there's God, this all powerful being. My stupid human brain can't understand it. Like, what do you think about that today?

Don: 25:13

What do you think about that today? I equate that now to my view of just the universe and life and everything. It's not that I'm not supposed to understand. I am unable to understand everything, you know. If I, again, if I start thinking about the that, that the universe, that space, that is infinite, I, I can't grasp that you can't sit down and kind of get a whiteboard out and explain what that is, it's, it's beyond comprehension. I view, you know, I view all of things like really like that, now, you know, in terms of are there, are there multiple dimensions? Are there, you know, are parallel universes? All that kind of stuff that you would think is just all hogwash and bullshit. I don't know, cause my, my, my mind is such a finite, you know, mass of cells it can't comprehend everything that is going on around us. So I, you know, I don't try to. I try to stay within my hula hoop and deal with what I can deal with. So, yeah, I, uh, I don't know if that answers the question.

Myles: 26:23

No, it does. That's helpful. Um, also, it's good to know that you thought about like time travel and stuff like that, and I think I'll take uh responsibility of making you watch all of the. Definitely, um, what are they called the marvel movies up to? Uh, yeah, up to the last good one, which I think was um, oh shoot, no, it's not um, but the last good one where it was like the, the battle against you know all the the gemstones, whatever man marvel, marvel fans are gonna to kill me, but anyway you start going back and reading some of not that I can comprehend any of it, but some of Albert believable or within the realm of possibility, just depending on who you talk to.

Don: 27:05

Yeah, that makes sense. I think sometimes we try to in conservative Christianity, try to put everything in a nice package and put a bow on it, and I don't. It's just not for me. This is my belief. It's just not that simple. Yeah, Life is very complicated. We, as humans, we don't know shit. You know, we really don't. Yeah, my opinion. Yeah, I agree, I was watching a special documentary a couple months ago.

Don: 27:54

I was watching it, watching a special documentary a couple months ago. I was watching it and they were going back and scientists and archaeologists and sociologists were discovering ancient civilizations, that what we consider ancient civilizations had actually been built upon other highly advanced civilizations. So when they go back and kind of look at the beginning of humans, they were finding civilizations that were existing prior to that and dovetail that with a and here I'm really going to go off on a deep end a book that I read. Here's an upbeat, you know, upbeat reading for a weekend.

Don: 28:27

It was on nuclear Armageddon, just the chain of events that would happen if you know, people just started going wackadoodle. But what would happen in terms of how the Earth would be? Just completely it would die, but then eventually it's going to regenerate. So they started my mind down this rabbit hole of what's you know, we always think we're the most technologically advanced people. Why do we think that? Psychologically advanced people? Why do we think that could there have been people eons ago who were on this earth, who are far more superior to us, who had their version of a nuclear armageddon and it wiped every trace of that off and then the earth regenerated? Just things like that. They just get me thinking, yeah that, thinking of the infinite possibilities.

Myles: 29:15

Yeah, it makes your brain kind of do somersaults when you try to wrap your mind around what you think you know versus what actually might be true.

Don: 29:25

Right, right, and this is where your listeners, especially those who know me, are going.

Myles: 29:28

what the fuck, where is he?

Don: 29:30

Oh, my God, he's gone down off the deep end yeah.

Myles: 29:32

That's insane.

Don: 29:33

Marvel Comics and Nuclear Holocaust and Ancient Civilizations, oh man.

Myles: 29:40

But there's more questions than answers. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and there always will be. I remember recently I watched a video I don't know if it's true, but these guys essentially they think it's a YouTube channel which obviously we know is always true. I think it's a YouTube channel which obviously we know is always true, but they were going down this rabbit hole of there was a I want to say he was from in his journal was that in the archives? It talks about how this other people, this species of people, came down and taught the Mayans and the Egyptians how to build the temples, and I cannot get that out of my brain.

Don: 30:35

It's been like two weeks. That documentary I watched was what's going along those lines, and that things have been constructed across the world kind of the exact same way, right Long before email and Google. Yeah, right, yeah.

Myles: 30:47

Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, it's crazy. It's always constant.

Don: 30:51

But again, to bring it back full circle. It's crazy. It's always constant. But again, to bring it back full circle. We can't just put life into a neat little box and put a bow on it and say, scripture, this is all there is that we need to know, there's so much more and saying that you know what happened and what we discover in science. If it contradicts scripture, then science is bad. I'm not there. I used to be there, but I am not there anymore.

Myles: 31:21

The evidence is overwhelming. Yeah, it's just crazy to go from certainty here to being comfortable in uncertainty over here. You know it's just like the dichotomy of that is wild. You know it's just like the dichotomy of that is wild. Do you to that point, though? Do you miss having a firmer doctrine to guide you? Like, do you feel like you have actually lost doctrine or it's just shifted?

Don: 31:49

I would say I've lost doctrine and I'm very comfortable with that. You know I. I would say I've lost doctrine and I'm very comfortable with that. You know I and we'll get into this maybe in a future podcast but really have gravitated toward Buddhist principles.

Don: 32:02

I don't know if I consider myself Buddhist per se, but definitely have gratified toward Buddhist principles. And those are just pretty simple Do no harm, everything is impermanent. You're going through, that's good, that's impermanent, it's not gonna last forever. So don't cling to that and hope that's going to carry you through life. Uh, the shit that happens is impermanent too. So if you're going through some stuff or it's whatever, that's impermanent, that's not forever. Some of those, those are guiding principles for me. It's not so much doctrine.

Don: 32:41

The other big thing for me in terms of my, my, my Buddhist philosophy is is the idea of in this life is suffering, and here's the framework that I, that I live by today. It's not doctrine, but in this life is suffering. And I like to phrase it this way in this life, shit happens, right. There's shit that happens that I have absolutely no control over. Somebody cuts me off going down the highway, another causes an accident. I have no control over that I do have the control or the ability to respond in a healthy way to that. I have no control over how can I respond to that in a healthier way than just simply reacting and overreacting.

Don: 33:24

But number two is in this life is suffering that I bring about through my own actions, whether it's unwise speech, unwise action, just how I conduct my life. So I'm learning how to respond better to life when things happen. I have no control and I'm learning how to conduct my life in such a way that doesn't create additional suffering. It's more principles and doctrine. It's really everyday living is what I'm embracing today, as opposed to a doctrine that is that's put together for the sake of of a future life or, you know, somehow. You know making right with a supreme being. I don't live my life that way anymore. I really conduct my life in terms of how can I be the best person of myself today, you know, doing no harm, the middle way, yeah, that's kind of how I sum it up today.

Myles: 34:11

It sounds like you have a new doctrine. Maybe you didn't lose a doctrine, you just kind of shifted to a different set of of like you found out what your values are, versus somebody else telling what your values are.

Don: 34:25

Yeah, I could go with that as well. Yeah, when I think of doctrine, I think of something I structure is put together so that you know and as opposed to this is just you know, it's how I find fulfillment in life, it's how I feel like I'm a part of life and benefiting from life and helping to, you know, help others to benefit from life.

Myles: 34:48

Do you miss having that, that doctrine to guide you?

Don: 34:59

that doctrine to guide you? No, because I think that sometimes I think the doctrine could become almost under the heading of a reward system. You know, do it this way and this is everything. Was always for eternal life. You know eternal life. You know, live your life. You're living this life, but this is just a temporary place. Everything. The goal is eternal life. The goal is heaven. The goal is down the road and I'm I don't my goal. You know, heaven on earth. It sounds corny as hell, but you know I'm finding fulfillment in how I live my life today and not living my life in such a way that I'm doing so because of a future life to come.

Myles: 35:38

That makes sense. Yeah, it feels like you had a bullet point list of how to live because of, like you said, being a doctor and now you're reading a choose your own adventure book. That's kind of how I view it. Okay, maybe it's a shitty analogy.

Don: 36:02

No, no, no. I think it's a way of living your life with direct results at the present moment. Yeah, if I live in such a way where it's unwise speech, unwise action, I just live a shitty life to myself and others, then I'm making misery. I'm making my own misery. If I constantly react to stuff that happens that I had no control over, I'm still creating more shit in my life. Shit in my life. You know my analogy of somebody cutting me off on going down the highway. If I'm still pissed off about that half hour later, it's not the guy who cut me off is creating that suffering, it's me. You know he might not even do it, but yet I'm fixated on that for the next half hour. Well, can't blame him for that. It's just trying to come up with a more peaceful way to live with the world and around with the world around you?

Myles: 36:55

Yeah, that's awesome. Have you ever said out loud to anybody in your circle that you're no longer a Christian? Very few people. What was that?

Don: 37:10

I don't. I don't think I it's difficult to say still to this day, because I was 63. So I don't know if I can put a date on when I really didn't identify as Christian anymore, but it's been in recent years. So the majority of my years I've identified whether I was practicing or not I identified as a Christian. I don't anymore. But the flip side of that is it doesn't necessarily come up in conversation either. If somebody asks me directly I'll answer honestly. But a lot of times in my circle if I'm in groups or talking with people or sharing, I'll say you know, there's a couple of Buddhist principles I really resonate with and I'll talk about those, but it really doesn't come up. The next question is oh, are you a Christian? Those? But it really doesn't come up. The next question is oh, are you a Christian anymore? So it really doesn't come up yeah, but I'm not. It's difficult to say to answer the affirmative, but I will answer the affirmative if directly asked.

Myles: 38:08

What did it feel like the first time that you said it out loud? Like was it something that you had thought about, like getting that question, or did it come up organically?

Don: 38:17

It came up organically and it was kind of a two-sided coin. Part of it was it felt good and part of it was, you know, I felt like I was letting Christianity down, letting down those who had gone through seminary with me, letting those down who had been in the congregation I served. You know, those are the people who were in the congregations I served, are the people very near and dear to my heart and I think I said at the outset of this whole project that that's that's the one audience that I hope you know they do not, they're not troubled by what they hear. They're not troubled by what they hear, they're not upset to the point of shaking their faith, because that is certainly not my intent. So I don't say those words lightly, that no, I'm no longer a Christian, because I think some people could hear that it could. Really, my former pastor, who you know maybe they liked me, maybe they had a great relationship with is no longer a Christian. You know that could have a negative impact and I certainly don't want that.

Myles: 39:22

Sure, yeah, and on the flip side of that is that you know, when you're in a public position like that, sometimes your personality and I think that's probably what you struggle with a lot of the time that your personality was was wrapped up into what you did versus being a person, and also you were a pastor. It was, it was the former, so that also has to be hard to try to square that. Sure, it is, yeah, yeah, well, I think that's a good place to uh, to end it. Um, I think next time we're going to talk about more about your, your finding buddhism and like what, how did that happen and where we are. Thank you for listening to episode five of Finding my Religion.

Myles: 40:15

Next week, we're going to be digging into some of the unanswerable questions that religion sometimes has the answers to. What does my dad think about what happens when you die? As a reminder, it really helps out the show and helps other people find the show If you subscribe, rate and review wherever you're listening. We're all over social media, so make sure to check out some of the videos that I'm posting on a weekly basis. They're on TikTok, instagram, facebook Just search for Finding my Religion Podcast or go to findingmyreligionpodcom. You can also send me over any suggestions that you have for the show. Maybe you have a question that you want answered or you want to be a guest. Shoot me over an email at miles with a Y at FindingMyReligionPodcom.