Finding My Religion
We're a podcast that asks the question, "What do you believe?" We talk with people to find out how they grew up, what they think about today, and where they think they'll be in the future. Faith, religion, and spirituality are all such personal journeys. We're honored to be able to tell people's stories, no matter the belief.
Finding My Religion
Don Phelps: Don't Pigeonhole Yourself
In this episode, I talk with my dad about where he is today—years after stepping away from the church, years into recovery, and miles into a quieter, more mindful life. What started as a story about leaving religion has become something much more honest: learning how to live with uncertainty, how to be at peace in the present, and how to show up for the people we love.
We talk about Buddhism, AA, the fear of change, and why it’s okay to not have all the answers anymore. It’s a conversation about real transformation—not overnight, not dramatic—but slow, steady, and deeply human.
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Welcome to Season 3 of Finding my Religion. My name is Myles Phillips. Are you nervous about doing?
Speaker 2:this at all. A big part of what I want to be going into in my next job is a big component of that is willingness to share your story. Growing up, identifying as Christian, I didn't know squat. We're adults. Now we're parents. I guess we should be doing the whole church thing, the church fire. I can certainly identify that, the alcoholism that was present. It was full-blown.
Speaker 1:What would you tell your younger self? Be careful of being tunnel-visioned. Welcome to season three, episode six of Finding my Religion. In this next episode, my dad and I talk about where he is today, what are his beliefs, what did he learn from this project? This was a unique opportunity for both my dad and I to have really intense conversations about his life, his faith, his recovery, and it's been therapeutic, I think, for both of us. But we really haven't talked a lot about his belief system today. Oh and, by the way, have you rated the show yet? Make sure you do that before jumping in. All right, we are back after a little hiatus, a little week off. How are you, dad? I'm doing well, I'm doing well?
Speaker 2:Yeah, a little bit of a. How are you, dad? I'm doing well, I'm doing well. Yeah, a little bit of a vacation in there.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what did you do with your time off? Travel? Did some camping. Yeah, had two back-to-back camping trips. Had a good time there. Right now I'm kind of gearing up. I got a big trip planned in the middle of August going up to Isle Royale, which is far northern edge of Lake Superior. It's a national park but it's least attended because you can only get to it by ferry or seaplane. But I'm going to seaplane there and do a solo backpacking adventure for six days, five nights. So kind of getting geared up for that I'm excited about that?
Speaker 1:How many solo backpacking trips will this be for you now?
Speaker 2:I think this will be maybe the seventh one, seventh or eighth First time I've gone without my dog, Callaway, because it's a national park. They do not allow dogs in there, but up to this point I've been with the dog, so it's been kind of fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, it almost seems like camping has been or at least these backpack trips have been the extension of kind of what we talked about last time, which is it took so long to find yourself and this when you first started doing this, it felt like it was.
Speaker 2:I don't know if you had talked with your therapist about it, but it was like the first step in order to be like, comfortable being alone. Yeah, I think that's. You know, actually, the first step was being told I should go to a movie by myself, which was, you know that was strange, but yeah, you know, seriously, it's uh, that has been a big part of the of of the journey for me and uh, there's just something really magical about being out there and being by myself with myself, cause for a lot of years, being with myself was not a comfortable place to be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Do you, do you use that time for like reflection or for like?
Speaker 2:yeah, it's reflection, it's, it's meditation, it's just, you know, enjoying, enjoying the moment, enjoying life, you know, being very much at peace with, with the moment. And, uh, you know, there's something real special about being out in the middle of fricking nowhere and just looking up at the sky and just, you know, kind of realizing your place in all of that. It's pretty cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure. Um, one thing that I know that you and I had talked about was we I mean, we've had conversations about getting into religion as an adult, about getting into religion as an adult, making it your career and then falling out of it. But how do you feel about Christianity today, as you look back?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I'm entirely supportive of Christianity and I want to make sure that maybe in any of the previous episodes didn't come across as being, uh, prescriptive. In other words, you know, I think christianity is bad, nobody should be doing. You know it's. It's it's helping so many people. People embrace it and it helps their walk, their daily walk in life, and I think that's awesome. Uh, for me it's more. It's more descriptive of where I'm at today. That's not my path anymore, but because that's not my path doesn't mean that I'm on the right path and they're on the wrong path. So, you know, like I said, it's I. You know it's not the path I follow, but I certainly am not against that path. Nor do I think there's anything wrong with people who are on that path. That's it's doing wonders for them and God bless them for that doing wonders for them, and God bless them for that.
Speaker 1:Are there aspects of Christianity that maybe were you or make you a little bit tentative?
Speaker 2:You know I still it comes down to maybe just the treatment of of people at times. Uh, you know we've talked about this a length. You know, views of homosexuality, the exclusion of certain groups of people is problematic to me and I think that the blanket, you know, if they're not in the Christian circle then they're destined to hell Again. That's just that kind of pronouncement. Yeah, it concerns me and it kind of rubs rubs against the grain of my psyche. Um, but again, trying to not do broad strokes of Christianity is bad and you know I'm glad I got out of it because that's certainly not where I'm at today.
Speaker 1:What about? I feel like there's a similar relationship with AA, where it was a big component of your recovery and you know you're still involved with it, but it's not the main source for how you deal with, you know addiction. So what is your relationship with AA today?
Speaker 2:Yeah, great question as well. I, you know, when I go into, I go into several treatment centers and I talk about my journey a little bit and kind of what I'm doing today, and one of the things I'll always say is you know, I first came into the doors of recovery 23 years ago, into an AA room, and I did so because that was the only game in town. You know, if you wanted to get sober, it was going to be through a 12 step program and thank God they were there, cause I probably would not be sitting here having this conversation with you today If it weren't for AA. I just wouldn't have, I wouldn't have made it. That being said, there are so many other paths that have opened up since that time.
Speaker 2:So AA is still yeah, I'm still involved in AA. I've got a wealth of you know, friends and people that I'm on the journey with in AA, but I tell people that AA saved my life. I'm finding now that I'm growing as a person in recovery through. For me it's recovery dharma, but AA certainly, you know it's saving people's lives. It's there when people need it and you know there's people who are, they're all in and that's what they do and that's great, it's a good program for me. I was missing some pieces, I think, in my recovery, and recovery Dharma kind of has filled in some of those, those pieces. But that's not anti AA, that's not against AA, that's just me, that's just my journey and you know, I found a a, a, uh, an alternative path, or maybe more of it's a parallel path. I think it's probably a better way to describe it.
Speaker 1:It's not either, or it's a both, and for me the more I learn about addiction, the the the more uh weird I find it and how like we as a society handle it. Because the, for example, say you, you get pulled over with a, uh, with a DUI, and the judge most likely is going to send you to some sort of counseling, and for us in this country it's AA. Do you feel like we're handling it the right way or do you feel like? I guess? The question is, the observation is that it feels like people have different levels of addiction, but we treat every addiction the same way because AA is that first step. So are we tolerant enough of the differences and the levels in addiction to allow for different methods to be out there?
Speaker 2:I think we're getting a lot better, honestly, just from my personal experience. You know that I'm working part-time for a local county court. I'm working in the probation department. Years ago it would have been. You know, clients or offenders would have been mandated to attend a recovery support group and you know, in parentheses that meant a 12 step program. That is not the case anymore because people are learning again.
Speaker 2:There are multiple paths to recovery, so it's not so much that you need to do this. One is that you need to do something. You need to find something that works for you. You need to do something. You need to find something that works for you. You know another place where I'm seeing that it's really opened up and broadened is just in my work in treatment centers. It used to be that the majority of treatment centers would focus on AA, would focus on 12-step, and if an outside group was going to come in to perhaps work with the clients or the patients, it it was only 12 step groups that came in. That's not what I'm finding today.
Speaker 2:Matter of fact, I'm finding treatment centers are again looking for the multiple pathways so that, so that people who are going through this, especially people who are new in it know that. You know, okay, here's an option, but you know what? Here's an option and and here's an option, and I always try to present it. As you know, if I go into a treatment that I'm talking with the clients. I'm going to say I'm not here to tell you what to do.
Speaker 2:I'm going to tell you what I'm doing, what my journey has been like, but the only advice I'm going to give you here is that find something that works for you, and I'm not going to tell you what that is. You're going to have to find that on your own. Maybe it's in conversations with your therapist or your counselors, you know. But some people, you know, describe it as you know taking and picking the best of for them, of multiple programs and making their own recovery. Because if you don't make it your own recovery, if you don't really embrace it, if it's something that's just being forced on you, you may be successful for a while, but if it's not something you're embracing as your own, you're probably not going to stick with it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think too, I mean, you would probably agree with this like, when you go to vote, make sure that you're voting for the people that are keeping these treatment centers open, because a lot of them are government sponsored, exactly, and there's a lot of them that are closing right now because they don't have the funds.
Speaker 2:There is a desperate need for them and, matter of fact, I'm in a network now that you know, when somebody gets to that point of they're willing to accept help, there's a short window of opportunity to take that individual and get them someplace where they can get help, because in the course of 60 minutes they can say I've changed my mind.
Speaker 2:But when that individual is ready, there's not always a bed available for them, or it's not a bed available, it's going to take their insurance or they're not going to take Medicaid, or whatever the case is. But when somebody is ready for help, we need to have a place where they can go and get the help they need, because again, two or three hours later, they may say, oh, screw that. Now, all of a sudden, they're feeling better physically and they decide against it. So, yeah, we need more treatment centers, we need more beds, we need more funding that allows people who do not have private insurance to get the help they need, because if not, it's just going to be a problem that continues to impact society in a negative way, whether it's crime or broken families or whatever you name it.
Speaker 1:But it starts with getting that person the help they need. Yeah, it's almost like I feel like people in my generation. We have this anxiety about making appointments for things. So like I haven't been to the dentist in quite a while because I don't want to call the dentist. But if I get that one inkling of like I should be productive today, I'm going to call them and then it's scheduled and then I'm good and then I'll go to the appointment.
Speaker 1:But it's the same thing for kind of the addiction, because if you have to get that like green window where it's like, hey, I should probably do this, but it takes, it's not like going to the dentist, because it takes so much work. You have to call so many different places, like your last didn't rehab, you had to travel three hours to go somewhere. So it's not like they're in your, your back backyard because of funding, right, exactly, um where. So last time we left off, we were talking a little bit about like where you are now. So, like you've mentioned, uh, a couple of times that you're more aligned with Buddhist principles and I just want to dig into, like what does that mean and what is your faith today? If there is one Sure, Good question Again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I align myself with Buddhist principles, buddhist philosophy, and that's a big window and I'm certainly not sitting here in front of you today as an expert on Buddhism, because it's huge, it's vast, it's deep, there's a lot of different schools on it. At the end of the day, I gravitate toward Buddhism because it allows me to live at peace with myself and the world around me, and I know it sounds like a huge, huge circle that I've just drawn, but I don't view it as a religion, although there are those who do utilize Buddhism as a religion, religion being there's rites, there's ceremonies, there can be multiple gods that they utilize within Buddhism as a religion. But as a philosophy, it really comes down to a focus on being in the present moment. It focuses on mindfulness, it focuses on ways to reduce your suffering in life and at first time I got exposed to this, I heard the word suffering. I thought it seemed really extreme. In this, life is suffering. That's the first noble truth. Now, I was talking about this actually yesterday at a meeting, I said this very topic, that suffering to me is what's going on in the hill country today, the flooding that took place in Kerrville. Those people are suffering.
Speaker 2:What I'm dealing with today isn't suffering, but the word that is translated into English as suffering is a word. It's called it's dukkah, but it really isn't suffering as you and I think of it in an English sense. It has to do with just things aren't as I want them to be. The word dukkah really is more of a translation of an out of balance wheel. Okay, I get that. You know I want life to be a certain way, but it's not the way I want it to be. So how do I deal with that in life? And life is just nothing but one event after another that maybe it happens and we're frustrated with it. Something doesn't go our way.
Speaker 2:Today, buddhism allows me to recognize that, instead of trying to force it to be different, just recognize it and realize everything's impermanent. So whatever I may be dealing with at the moment, it's not. And realize everything's impermanent. So whatever I may be dealing with at the moment, it's not forever. Everything is impermanent. It allows me, through something called the eightfold path, to come up with, to develop ways to respond to life as it happens, as opposed to react, and I may have mentioned this in a previous episode. I mean life can be, you know, for me, I think life was a lot of reaction. Something would happen, I'd react, and a lot of times the reaction was to try to make something go away. You know, if I'm feeling a certain way, I react to make it go away.
Speaker 2:Buddhism allows you to sit back and go. That's what's happening at the moment and that's okay. You can sit with that and acknowledge it. You don't have to change everything constantly. Um, I don't think that makes sense, but that's kind of.
Speaker 2:There's just a lot to it that and at the end of the day, buddhism just simply allows me to live a better life in terms of, like I said, being at peace with myself and the world around me. It's not about a future, it's not about a heaven or what happens when I die. I don't get into that realm. I mean, there's certain aspects of Buddhism that does. There's nirvana, there's reincarnation, and that's just not a part of my walk. My walk is about what I do today, in the present moment, to be of maximum service to others. I love the aspect of Buddhism that really centers on do no harm. Do no harm in this world, do no harm to others. The other aspect of Buddhism that I embrace is a term called metta or loving kindness. At the end of the day, everybody wants to be happy, even the people in our life who are assholes to us, at the end of the day, they want to be happy. When you have that understanding, it allows you to respond to what goes on and respond to those individuals in a different way. Respond to what goes on and respond to those individuals in a different way.
Speaker 2:Example I was at Target a couple of weeks ago and I was rushing around and a lot of self-importance. I got to get in this, I got to do all this and I got to do something else and I turned the corner with my cart and I'm stuck in a line. I look ahead and there's three carts ahead of me and the lady who is at the checkout and I don't know what the name of the movie is. It's an animated movie, but there's a scene where there's a sloth working at DMV. Yeah, it's Zootopia, zootopia. Well, if you can picture that scene where the sloth is working at DMV, this checkout worker reminded me of that scene. She was.
Speaker 2:She was a much older lady, very slow, and my first reaction again the word reaction my first reaction was oh shit, you know, and I wanted to run and find another line, but I thought, you know what? No? And I took a couple breaths, you know, I thought about her, you know. So, creating some loving kindness toward her. I'm thinking okay, here it is, on a Sunday.
Speaker 2:This lady is probably in her early 70s. She's standing on her feet working a shift at Target. Maybe she likes it, maybe she was doing it because she really loves it. Chances are she's doing it because she needs to be there, you know. So just standing there and doing a couple breaths you know, being in the present moment, you know, sending loving kindness toward her allowed me to respond to that situation instead of just getting all pissed off and worked off. You know, pissed off and worked up over it there's a lot of and again, I'm really getting excited about this because there's so much practicality in the buddhist philosophy. There's stuff that helps me about this. Because there's so much practicality in the Buddhist philosophy. There's stuff that helps me every single day. There's stuff that helps me every single hour. So it's not theoretical and again, it's not kind of pie in the sky, future stuff, it's reality, it's rubber meets the road for me today.
Speaker 1:So what did the checkout lady say when you asked to see her manager about the speed?
Speaker 2:Just let it be, man. I just, you know, just let it go. I had a great conversation with her and God bless her, for you know she's there doing it and who am I to say? You know, get all worked up and impatient over that shit. I do the same thing now when I'm driving down the highway that you know, um, people cut me off or do something and I, instead of just getting all wound up over that now I mean, yeah, it'll piss me off initially. Somebody cuts me off, they almost cause a wreck. I'm pissed off, but again I can kind of get a little space between that happening and how I'm going to respond to it and maybe a little loving kindness.
Speaker 2:I don't know what that person's, what's going on in that person's life? There may be, you know, are they driving like a jag off? Yeah, but I don't know what's going on in their personal life? Yeah. And for me to fixate on that and to chew on that and to be pissed off out about that for the next half hour, I'm only creating additional suffering in my life. That's needless, because a half hour later if I'm still ruminating on, I'm still pissed off. I can't blame that guy. Yeah, that's all. That's all on me, that's all on me.
Speaker 1:How does buddhism feel different to you, like? Is it more comforting, like how, if you kind of reflect where you were to where you are?
Speaker 2:it's comforting and it's and I keep coming back to the word practical. It just helps me through through life. It helps me through situations. You know there's something very magical about when you're in a situation or you're you're having a negative thought, you're cause. You know we and I shouldn't say we, I, I tend to focus on two things future or past. You know anxiety is fixating on the future, getting worried and wound up over stuff. Depression, sadness usually has to do with the past. You know you're fixated on something that has happened.
Speaker 2:With mindfulness I can, when I start having thoughts about oh, this is going to happen, and you start writing these screenplays in your mind about what's going to happen or you're ruminating about what happened yesterday. The most present thing I have in my life is my breath. So if I can just focus simply on three breaths inhale, exhale do that two or three times I'm in the present moment because I always have my breath. That's a very practical tool and allows me to stay in the stay in the present moment and not go down these squirrel holes of stuff that's going to happen in the future or stuff that happens in the past. I'm I'm really good at writing a two and a half hour screenplay on stuff that I think is going to happen tomorrow. That usually never happens. So I'm finding practical ways to not go that route.
Speaker 2:You know, meditation is such a huge part of you cross your legs which I can't do anymore. I don't bend that way anymore. But you know, maybe you hold your hands a certain way and then you don't think, you put your brain in neutral and I learned that's totally incorrect. There's no such thing as putting your brain in neutral. Your brain is always sinking. It's always sinking, it's always firing. Meditation teaches me to. When I'm having thoughts, you know what can I do to bring myself. I don't have to follow every thought that happens. You know, a lot of times in a guided meditation I'll use the. You know, if a thought comes to mind, just think of it as a cloud passing by or a leaf going down the river. You don't have to follow every thought. You just identify and say, okay, just had a thought about going to Dairy Queen later. Okay, then focus back on the breath. Yeah, it just seems so simple, but for me it really is life-changing on how I interact with the world and myself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've been trying to get you to do that more in the golf course and just use that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it hasn't helped that too much in the golf course. I got work to do there.
Speaker 1:We all do. It's hard, so what readings or conversations or resources helped you get to where you are and influence this shift? Helped you get to where this, where you are, and influence this shift?
Speaker 2:Yeah, the uh, you know. Initially, when I was uh, you know undergoing treatment the last time, um, I was exposed to meditation. That's where I had the mental shift, because I had been exposed to meditation. Now again, I'm 63 years old, so it's not like I'd never heard of it or tried it, but it never it. It never did anything for me, perhaps or most certainly, because I just wasn't open-minded to it at the time.
Speaker 2:When I was exposed to it this last time, I was at a place in my life where I was willing to try anything to to to kind of calm my mind down and to help me, and it really resonated with me. So I got out of treatment and I downloaded some apps. So I found myself doing meditations on a daily basis every morning and I was like, wow, this is just really awesome. And it's not like and again, that's a misconception of meditation too it's not so much about 10 minutes of being calm, learning techniques during that, for example, 10 minutes that I then am able to put into practice during the day.
Speaker 2:So I was doing more and more meditation and I was working with a counselor and one of those famous check-in questions was what's working for you right now in your recovery and every time I would say meditation. And finally he said there's a recovery program that utilizes meditation heavily. And I said news to me and that's where I learned about recovery Dharma. So that was my entry point into recovery Dharma really was the meditation practice and using it in my recovery program. Can you talk a little bit?
Speaker 1:about what? What recovery Dharma is?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we haven't talked about that Recovery Dharma is a recovery program for individuals with a variety of different addictions and the addictions could be chemical addictions or they could be process addictions. It could be overeating, it could be pornography, it could be overwork. So it's a wide net, but it utilizes Buddhist principles and practices. That was my entry point. Uh, buddha, uh. Recovery Dharma has meetings online almost any day of the week. Recovery Dharmaorg, if anybody is interested in you know, kind of kicking the tires there, um, and there's in-person meetings as well, um, and they follow the. You know, basically it's the eightfold path and the four noble truths, for noble truths are basically there is suffering in life. There is suffering, there's a cause of suffering, there's a way to lessen that suffering. The Eightfold Path is kind of an ethical framework Wise speech, wise action, wise livelihood, wise concentration A framework for lessening the amount of suffering you bring about in your own life. Recovery Dharma has meetings, you know, weekly, kind of like any other support group, again online or in person. So I started attending online because there were no in-person meetings in the area where I live and was doing that and was, you know, doing two or three online meetings a week and just was, absolutely it was just resonating with me. It's like shit, this stuff. This is great. And just was, absolutely. It was just resonating with me. It's like shit, this stuff, this is great. And again I started learning. Okay, it's great for my addiction recovery, for my alcoholism, but boy, it's just giving me tools and techniques for just for life. Started exploring ways to how do you get an in-person meeting going. Long story short, we ended up starting two local meetings where I'm at now.
Speaker 2:Then I got involved at the national level a little bit, but that was my entry point into Buddhist principles and practice. So there is a recovery Dharma book, pretty, pretty short read, pretty small. But then I started doing some other readings as well. I think the biggest if anybody's interested in exploring it books by Thich Nhat Hanh. Find them on Amazon. They're short reads but Vietnamese Zen monk, very prolific writer but doing. A lot of his readings really centered on the aspect of mindfulness and the breath and being present in the moment, not always being in a rush to get to the next thing, not looking for ways to mask what you may be dealing with. You know hitting the refrigerator 10 times a day because you're just. You know something may be going on and that's how you're comforting yourself. His readings were very instrumental in kind of getting me on this journey.
Speaker 1:It's awesome, ooh, yeah, I feel like it was gone into hyperspeed these last three years of being able to be where you are now. But what have you been the most surprised by, as you think about just the craziness of your faith journey and how it ended up here?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think, maybe just sitting here right now, after sharing so much of what I've shared, that life doesn't have to be overcomplicated. You know, and I keep saying I go to we and I try to not do that. I try. I have a tendency and I've had a tendency to overcomplicate it and, you know, perhaps using a framework of another world religion, where there was just so much and it's just at the end of the day, my being able to deal with maybe what's going on around me is as simple, can be as simple as three breaths, and it seems so silly and trite, but it doesn't have to be any more difficult than that. I think that's been the biggest surprise for me, that and that I can easily incorporate a few things in my life on a daily basis that make that, this make all the difference. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Uh, the the other thing to on top of that is how do you? I mean it's? I think your answer to this question would be that you know you can't control it, but what I want to ask is what happens when we die, because that's a huge component of where you were and what you taught, and now there's no answer for you, I assume. So how do you feel about it and what? What do you think happens?
Speaker 2:you just kind of answered when you said I don't know it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know I know you knew I was going to go there. No, I don't know, and I don't know that I need to know or that I, as I sit here today, comprehend what would happen would fall short because it's just, it's a bigger picture than I think I can even grasp. So I try to focus on what's in front of me, what, what I do have knowledge of, and that is where I'm at today. Where I'm sitting today, I don't really do not ponder what the next thing is, because anything I would come up with would just be theory.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I can't really go ahead.
Speaker 1:No, I was going to ask, like on that same realm of like unanswerable questions Are there things that you do ponder, that you do think about? Maybe they don't keep you up at night, but they're interesting. Or they're questions that maybe other religions answer, any philosophical things that you're grappling with when I'm out camping or backpacking.
Speaker 2:This one always just this is to me, is a big, unanswerable question. When I look out into the expanse of sky, the idea that it's infinite, infinite, infinite. I would like to have a concept or an understanding of what that really means. I mean, there's literally no end. That is so mind boggling to me. I'd like to be able to grasp that better, because that just there's. There's nothing about that that makes sense from a from a limited human perspective, but yet that's what we're taught. I mean, that's what science shows that there is, there's no end to that. That's a huge question I would love to have a better understanding of and we never will, I mean, we won't.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So through this journey, you know you. You had a family, so you have two kids. You have a former wife. That was a part of you know a lot of the religious aspect of it. One thing that that mom wanted to know is you know what? What advice would you have for your children or your former wife? Because, as she puts it, you know, you were so sure at the time and I think this is something that she's struggling with right now.
Speaker 2:Quite honestly, Just be open and give yourself permission to challenge what you have known and what you always were taught to be the truth. And then if you allow yourself to explore and you challenge your thinking a little bit, if you end up at the same place, then that's awesome, great. Challenge your thinking a little bit. If you end up at the same place, then that's awesome, great. But allow yourself to permission, because I think for me, I didn't allow myself to permission to think anything other than what I'd been taught. I could have been in a different place now where, if I had just gave myself permission I explore, I maybe challenge some of what I've been taught, and then if I ended up right back where I was, that's awesome. So I think anybody who's kind of that would be my advice for anybody. Just allow yourself permission, because I think we don't give ourselves permission, but somehow we are.
Speaker 2:We are violating I don't know some. You know we're violating tradition. We are letting people down. I know that was a big part of it for me that I start. If I really start challenging what I've been taught personally, am I letting? I mean all the people I'm letting down? I'm letting down my seminary professors, you know. I'm letting down parishioners, that it became almost a huge guilt thing for me. Yeah, I had to finally get to the point where I gave myself permission because I needed to. I needed this to for me, for my journey.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's almost like you have to just enjoy the process of being able to think about it, but there's that fear factor that goes into it, whether it's you're afraid of you know your, your soul, or you're afraid of letting down more other humans the fear factor, I think, is a huge aspect of it you just have to be comfortable with. I might not get to answer these questions, but if something's bothering me and I can't come up with a rational conclusion, then maybe that particular faith or religion isn't for me. But you have to be able to go there and allow yourself. Yeah, yeah, do you expect that you could have another belief shift in the future? Why not, I mean?
Speaker 2:I think it's fluid. I really think you know our journey is fluid and you know. Just going back to the point I just previously made, I need to be open to you know, challenging myself if questions in my mind come up. I think I think it's dangerous if we're static on it. I think I think it needs to be fluid because we change, we evolve, our thinking changes, our circumstances change. Um, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Very very well, good, I could answer that question for you. Um, what advice do you have for the church in America and church I mean broadly, you know it. It it could be specifically the LCMS, it could be Catholics, it could be just Christianity, it could be all religions. Like what? What advice would you have for church?
Speaker 2:Wow, that's difficult because any advice I give in terms of how the church functions in the world you know some of the things we've talked about in terms of non-exclusion, exclusion is going to contradict the rule and norm of faith for christianity. So my advice really means nothing. Do I have? You know, I? You know my personal concerns and my personal challenges with with christianity, um, but knowing that it comes down to scripture, so for me to say, well, maybe don't rely so heavily on scripture. Well then, that blows, it, blows the faith out of the water, because there's nothing then to stand on.
Speaker 2:So I don't know that I can answer that question other than perhaps from a just, from a social um. You know, be in the world and, and and you know whether everybody lines up accordingly in, in in the faith and in their beliefs, but at least be open to the social conditions in the country or in the world and be willing to set, you know, set aside doctrinal differences for the sake, for the sake of the world, the side of heaven. You know, for the sake of improving the lives of others, do not let the religion, the doctrinal differences, get in the way of helping others. Maybe it's just that simple. Yeah, I like that we've had like that yeah, we've.
Speaker 2:Unfortunately, within christiana we've had an issue, you know we've had centuries, and not just christiana, I should say that I mean with organized religion. We've had history, sadly of you know, wars over doctrinal issues. Um, we got to get past that shit yeah, yep, centuries, centuries.
Speaker 1:That's yeah, yeah, yeah, um. So, as you know, you're going to be a grandpa. Courtesy of me am I really? Yeah, yep, breaking news, breaking news. Um, so I'm obviously going to be raising my future kid very differently than how I was grown up. How, like how, would you approach raising kids, I guess, in in today's world and where you are with your journey?
Speaker 2:Kind of goes back to, I think, maybe one of our early episodes where, be broader minded than I was, do not pigeonhole. Don't pigeonhole what we think to be right to the exclusion of, of everything else. Yeah, um, don't pigeonhole, you know, one is not right just because we say it's right. Now I'm and I'm not talking about morals, and I think you know there's some definite. You know morals are morals and there's right and there's wrong. But I'm talking about, in terms of belief systems of the world and how the world is and how the world became and how we interact with the world. I don't think anybody has, you know, a quarter of market on what that should look like. So be willing to explore with your child, you know, other belief systems, especially trying to push ourselves out of this, this dominated, you know, uh, anglo-saxon Protestant, uh, bubble that we tend to find ourselves in. You know, explore what, what people do in other other parts of the world, um, and try to get out of that right versus wrong or we versus us, we versus them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the we versus them. That definitely rings true. Last question what's the biggest thing you've learned from this project? I know I asked you about what you've learned in your faith, but you know, in just doing this, you know this is our sixth episode. We're going to have, you know, maybe one or two more that are going to be a little bit different, but you know this is going to wrap up, kind of your, your story. So you've said a couple of times that it's it's been interesting to have to talk about it in succession, because you really haven't done that before. So I mean, what are, what are some things that you've learned?
Speaker 2:no-transcript and and kind of, you know, fueling some of these shifts, um, and I think that's been good for me. It's been good for me to look back and and and look at the journey and be able to articulate it as opposed to just kind of yeah, that's where I'm at today. I don't know how I got here yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, I think it's been. It's been cool to kind of um, you know, we, we there's a bonus episode that we released last week that you know we interviewed, uh, my wife and page, my sister and uh, jimmy, her, her fiance, and and just what, what people didn't know at different points in time, like everybody kind of had like puzzle pieces, and this is kind of filling everything together and maybe it'll help other people too, maybe former parishioners, maybe people that know. You know, I've had random people come up and just say like how interesting it was, people that I never had a relationship with from, like high school. So I think it's just been interesting and um has allowed space for other people to think about it, because everybody thinks about this stuff, but you don't yeah, and I think I hope that's the benefit.
Speaker 2:I mean, certainly there was a benefit to me personally just being able to kind of, like I said, be able to learn how to articulate this and to share the journey, because it's going to help me to share this journey with with other people, maybe during a conversation, but that it helps others to again, if it helps people to kind of have that conversation with themselves or open up and have a conversation with somebody else, I think that's great. We get that space again, a safe space to have that conversation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, now you don't even have to have the conversation, you just hit play I like that.
Speaker 2:Then you got six episodes ready to go. Just somebody wants to know about my journey. I'll say here you go, here's the links. Yeah, it's a link.
Speaker 1:Well, I appreciate your openness to this Cause it. You know it's it's tough there. You know it'd be really easy to gloss over that or not be open to having the conversation. So it's. It's been cool to have this like immortalized. We'll have this forever and you know, we can. We can revisit it in the future.
Speaker 2:So I just appreciate the opportunity. I've enjoyed the conversations with it.
Speaker 1:Cool. Uh well, next week we'll we'll kind of we'll flip the scripts and you can ask me some questions and see what you learn scripts and you can ask me some questions and see what you learn. Thank you for listening to episode six, season three of Finding my Religion. Like I mentioned at the end there, next week's going to be a little bit different. My dad's going to be asking me questions. I have no idea what to expect, so make sure you tune in as a reminder. It really helps out the show and helps other people find the show If you subscribe, rate and review wherever you're listening. We're all over social media, so make sure to check out some of the videos that I'm posting on a weekly basis. They're on TikTok, instagram, facebook just search for finding my religion podcast or go to findingmyreligionpodcom. You can also send me over any suggestions that you have for the show. Maybe you have a question that you want answered or you want to be a guest. Shoot me over an email at miles with a Y at findingmyreligionpodcom. We'll see you next time.
