Mei: 00:00 – 00:08
Welcome to my podcast, Selena. It's an honor to have you on this show. Could you please introduce yourself to our listeners?
Selena: 00:08 – 01:44
Hello, Mei and hello the audience of Mei. Thank you so much for your invitation. I'm very glad to present myself here and exchange some ideas with Mei. I have never done this before, so hopefully my English can handle this. I'm the founder of OIT Art, 3-O-I-T, art. I founded this company when I settled down with my Dutch husband in Utrecht in 2006. And after one year I started this business. Actually I entered art more like I see art as a media. Because we saw that art has many medias.
But I see art as more like the link of my... culture, Chinese culture, and the international culture and also the media to help me to understand the Dutch history, Dutch art, Dutch people and maybe also help them to understand my Chinese background. I do work like a curator, so I curate exhibitions in galleries, museums, art spaces, public spaces, and I also do a lot of educational programs. but I more like to call myself still the cross-culture communicator. I hope I find the right English word for that.
Mei: 01:44 – 02:19
I think, just like you said, Selena, and you communicate with art, I think, in a unique form, cross-cultural communication, but you use art as medium to communicate and also you help artists to communicate with their audience in Europe or the Western artists to communicate with their audience. in China. It's a very unique form of communication. Could you please share with us your personal journey and what led you to choose the Netherlands as a place to live and to work?
Selena: 02:19 – 03:40
Yeah, actually, it's of course started with my study. I studied here for my master's degree. And since then I met my Dutch husband. So that's actually the major reason we decided to settle down in the Netherlands and I immigrated to the Netherlands in 2006. Yeah, and I entered art mainly because, how do I say it, maybe because when I was struggling with Dutch language, I, yeah, because I already very much struggling with English and when I started another language, Dutch, which is supposed to be very difficult, and I really feel like, okay, maybe visual art can help a lot to tell the story very directly. to understand your communication way much easier than languages, than words. And I also chose actually a typical Dutch word. In English it means ever. I took it more than ever, so three O's with O. I think it looks like a very strange word in Dutch, which never have this kind of combination in English too.
Mei: 03:40 – 04:11
Yes, it's a very, very nice answer because. The Dutch language is very... Yeah, really challenging for all of us. And Selena, we met each other in 2008. At that time, you mainly involved in selling artworks, but now 15 years later, you also established your career as a curator and share with us this talent discovery process.
Selena: 04:11 – 06:50
Yeah, I think actually art is a very special topic. is very much different from any other industry or any other product because next to the emotional value if you can see for a museum art can also mean history and cultural heritage and for a gallery it can mean a product or for auction house it can have a directly business value as product of course sometimes it's much more than that And for a collector it can be an investment object. It also can be heritage. And of course art also has been playing a role in the history as propagandas, political propagandas, or even the visualization tool for some beliefs.
So in a way, you have all kinds of ways to enter art. and you also enjoy art in different ways. So I entered art, of course, by the most easiest way, by bringing my familiar Chinese contemporary art to the Netherlands. So I collaborate with the galleries and introducing, but actually I already start like curators role because I select not just the most sellable art, but most meaningful art. The art that represents a certain period, a certain society development, a certain culture topic.
So I brought those artists to The Netherlands, we organize exhibitions, we sell works, but we also have the purpose that it brings talks, it brings communication. And so it's not, we don't see art as a product only. So that's how I started, although work for galleries. But later on, I like to bring also art to museums, organize, curate exhibitions, make themes out of it. Also because later I don't only bring Chinese art to the Netherlands or to Europe, but I also bring a lot of Dutch art or Belgian art or British art. to China, to Chinese audience. So then my role became a bit more, how do you say, multiple than just the selling art, yes.
Mei: 06:50 – 07:27
Just like you said, actually, when you are selecting art, you already use the. a view of a curator to select the artwork and the artist you want to work together. And how do you go about selecting the artist and the artwork and to feature in your exhibitions? Or I'm just wondering what's your process to highlight the unique features of those artworks as a curator? And because like you said, you want to create a meaningful connection between the spectator and the art. What's your process in the whole thinking and working process?
Selena: 07:27 – 11:13
Yeah, it's actually quite a big topic. I probably need a whole book about it, but
Mei:
Maybe you can write a book.
Selena:
I try to find a way to start with. Of course, as a curator, there are also many choices. For example, you can specialize in certain topics. For example, you only focus on realism or you only focus on impressionism. or you only focused on a period of art, or you only focused on a certain country or certain culture. So there are many ways to enter. So that's why I say it's actually quite a big topic. But I think because my background of coming from two cultures, well, actually I live in Holland almost half of my life, almost. So I must say I come from double culture. I would choose more, how to say, the artist who can create talks, like I said, create communication, bring something different, also exchange the knowledge. Also, I pay attention to what happened at that moment.
I give some example. For example, when I started to organize the first exhibition in Amsterdam, I may choose those artists, those Chinese artists, who were starting to search for their internal individualism feeling. Because before that, the generation would have very much influence by the collective culture, and also that expressed in their paintings. But then I wanted to see the new generation, they start to look at themselves, look at their own feelings, their own reflection on the society. So that is quite new at that moment.
And then I would, for example, another exhibition I did for five Dutch artists in two museums in China is, I want to see those co-work. So it's like a collaboration between different backgrounds. Like some artists are focused on sound, some artists are focused on light, some artists are focused on movement. How can they work together? Some kind of a collaboration. Because if we are facing in a new technology, a new society, the collaboration is something you can also not avoid in the future. So with this exhibition, we not only focus on technology, but also focus on how you can work together.
And of course, another example is we bring like Next Nature to China. We had a very influential big museum show for them in Chinese museum. And then we wanted to see is there actually boundaries between technology and art and the design. and social feedback from the audience, can we actually make them also part of the art presentation. So I must say I'm also trying to find interesting topic, trying to let art come from different, combine with different culture background and try to find a value out of that.
Mei: 11:13 – 11:49
Yeah, it's so interesting. Because I also chatted with you some time ago, and you shared with me also very unique artists which you are representing, a Chinese duo artists. how they create their works. And it's so fascinating. Could you please share with us about these two artists, yeah, how they work and what makes them so unique?
Selena: 11:49 – 14:15
You are telling about Ta Men.
Mei:
Yeah. exactly.
Selena:
Actually, this is a Chinese name. Actually, in English, it can means they, it can also means them. So it's actually... of object and subject. And they, because in Chinese it's both means taman, and they use this name as their group or dual name because they want to ignore their own personal symbol in it. They wanted to actually bring the audience to the painting as subject and as object, because you actually see from their paintings yourself. your society, but you actually also watching your own society from that. And they also painted in a very democracy way that one can paint, the others cannot how to say, interrupt that. You can add things, but you cannot delete things from the image. So in the end, they don't know what's going to happen in the end. They only can decide to say, okay, let's stop, because we feel the painting is quite full, let's stop there. And then so sometimes this can be very absurd in the picture. Sometimes this can be interesting. But I think it's a very interesting way to see how they create works. Also, they have a lot of It's a little bit between realism and pop art because they set some kind of structure for each period, like a window, outside of the window, inside of the window, what are the influences from the Western culture to Chinese society, for example, or what is happening at the moment in the TV or outside of the window. So it's some kind of, if you put their painting together. It's almost like a film to see what happened in the past 20 years in China. So, yeah, I wouldn't call them even painters. It's actually very conceptual. So some people see them as pop-up. Some people see them as paintings. I would more call them as a concept, concept, conceptual installations.
Mei: 14:15 – 15:22
I have saw the paintings in your gallery and really, yeah, so, so, so different from other artworks. And just like said. You mentioned the way how they create these paintings. If one start, the other one can only add elements on it. But you also told me that it's very unique for them collaborate for many years. They already have been working many, many years together. So normally, many of such duos cannot work for such a long time together. And they also shared their story, I think, I saw a video of them telling their journey, how they grew. how they worked together for so many years create such a unique form of storytelling. And could you please share with us how could they manage work together in such a unique way for many years?
Selena: 15:22 – 16:59
I think actually I have been get along with many, many type of artists European artists, Chinese artists. Before I answer that question, I must say most of the successful artists I got to know actually have their emotional part and very rational part. Which means the rational part defines your working, the way of your work. And the emotional part gives you inspiration and to really create the art itself. But to make an artist very successful, actually you have both parts. So you, for example, some artists, you can keep producing your artwork and not affected by too much emotional obstacles or things. And some artists maybe need another help from another person. For the rational part, that can be also the case at some occasions. So for them, I think to answer that is, I think they have their emotional part for the art creation, but they still have the rational part to define, okay, what is our working flow? Can we just follow that and continue that? And I think that is also important to keep. to remain working till now.
Mei: 16:59 – 18:24
I fully agree because I think maybe that rational part will really create the success they deserve. Because most of the time the emotional part leads to great artworks. But the rational part keep you going to sell your work, to be engaged, to collaborate with galleries, and with the curators. So that part is very essential for the business of an artist. And I can imagine.
Selena, you have been doing many interesting projects and especially in the education fields, and you you have initiated the international artist residency project in 2016, I think. And you brought the Chinese artists to create their artwork here, to engage with the art world in the Netherlands and to showcase their artwork. And you create also very interesting exhibitions with their artworks. Could you please share with us about this residency project and what you have learned from the process and what's your plans for the future?
Selena: 18:24 – 20:24
Yeah, to create this residency, actually, we did not only bring Chinese artists to Europe, but we also brought a lot of, well, not a lot, quite some Dutch artists to China. Only because I based in the Netherlands, so I followed those artists much more, I involved more deeply. with their development also follow their ideas and how it can influence their creation and how their mindset change. So maybe you hear more stories from that part. I think because I think people don't get to know themselves from mirror. People actually get to know themselves by throw themselves with totally different culture. then they really get to know themselves, because they notice everything from different, so everything looks different. Then you start to get aware of that, okay, who am I? What do I look like? What do I like? Or what is my belief? So I think to throw yourself not to mirrors, I mean to the people very much look like you, but throw yourself to very much different culture and different background environment is actually quite important for an artist, for their development, for their inspiration. That's why we want to initiate this project and we did it, we got great support. We actually co-initiated together with the... municipality of Amstelveen and Museum Jan. So we also have a great exhibition in Museum Jan later after that period.
Mei: 20:23 – 20:46
Yeah, thank you. Selena, could you please share with us the insights, what did you see the Chinese artists develop or evolve during this process of study, working, creating art in the Dutch environments, with Dutch artists in the Netherlands, and also what the Dutch artists have evolved in China?
Selena: 20:46 – 23:28
It’s really a lot of stories. But I will highlight some interesting part. Just to give you some examples. For example, Chinese artists come to the Netherlands, they feel like, okay, this country is already perfectly designed. So you have no garbage, no nothing, nothing to really reflect on, nothing to really pick up on the street and nothing to really make it better. You know, it's like you have no material anymore for artists. And while in China, if you go there, you... everything is still very much developing. You always find your material, you find your stories, you find the conflict, you find the questions and you try to get inspiration out of that.
And also about production, of course, the labor here is very expensive, no matter if you need a designer for something or you need to make some frames, for example, very simple. or you need to get some material, it's overly expensive. So the starting point is already quite high. While in China, you can actually find a very affordable material, you can, yeah, with all kinds of ways, and you can find workers to help you to finish big object. So, well, there are quite many differences.
But I think for the most interesting part for Chinese here, maybe is the part they visit some Dutch artists to see how they actually create their work to get inspired because some Dutch artists, but also because we introduced those artists and they don't really have limitations in their mind. I think they also very much looking at the the nature relationship and how do you say, they more look at the world maybe from the natural way. So like you search a lot of links between nature and human beings. And when you go to China, maybe you will focus more of the relationship between person. So more like the society impact. So of course nature is still very important topic. but because people are so close to each other, so this relationship, this social impact became very important and very strong.
Mei: 23:28 – 24:30
So interesting to hear those differences. I think you followed, you are already active in the art world for, yeah, many, many years. And the art market in China has undergone significant development in last years. And what are the trends you are seeing with the development of art markets in China in the recent years?
Selena: 24:30 – 27:09
I think the biggest trend is probably the technology and also how the new generation experience art. These two points is of course also connected. I will see how I explain that. For example, we will see that audience in China is compared with Europe, is relatively younger. A younger generation really love to see the contemporary art, who love to go to visit museums, go to art fair, and they represent the new generation also with new technology. So they look at art also differently. They like to experience, they like to make selfies, they like to share. They are not necessary to always own that piece. Of course, some of them do, but to really have the ownership of that specific work is probably sometimes less important than enjoy that moment and share that moment. That means the big installations, the master pieces. or the enjoyment at the moment with interactive art, and then share in the social media became the most enjoyable part of this process of their relationship between audience and art. Well, if you look at the Europe market, it's of course, we still have a bigger group of older generation of audience. They are of course also relatively well educated, they question art, they want to know the deep story out of it. They are very active to look at art. Well, in China maybe you like to be entertained by the art. Maybe it's too simple conclusion to say that, but I must say you enjoy art in that way. But maybe they will less challenge the topic behind. They don't always raise questions. Why do you paint so? What is the deep meaning behind? I think that makes some difference. Also, how you present? Should you design the exhibition more interactive? Should you tell the story more attractive? That's a little bit different.
Mei: 27:09 – 27:28
Yeah, I can imagine Selena if if the market is the trend are so different and this trend will also have impacts on the sales aspect of the artworks. What do you look at the future of selling artworks in China and also selling artworks on European markets?
Selena: 27:28 – 29:16
Well, that's also quite a big topic, depending what type of work. I must say for masters, there is market always, so that we see more like a cultural heritage part, and there is always a value, and there are always demand for that. But for contemporary art, because it's so broad. They have all kinds of types. You have NFTs, you have high-tech, you have still paintings, you have still traditional media, you have glass, you have porcelain, you have...
Yeah, it is quite difficult to really use one sentence to make a big conclusion. Just for example, like our glass art, I mean for Chinese it's quite a new media because we don't have... to some years of glass tradition. Although we had sometimes experiment with glass material, but it has never been taking the role of, like, so important role like porcelain. But in Europe, it's already very old traditional media, traditional type of art. So it is quite, it's not so easy to just... draw a conclusion in one sentence. But of course worldwide at this moment abstract art with colorful, with healing function, this type of art is still can be very well sellable if you hear from the signal from the market.
Mei: 29:16 – 29:36
If somebody is listening and a Dutch artist, they want to navigate the Chinese market, what are the advices you can give them to navigate the Chinese market and to sell their artworks in China?
Selena:
Yeah, I think it's a very fast changing market Because if we see five years ago or five years later, there will be definitely a huge difference. So you have to react very quickly. So just do quick research on what is going on now and try to catch the opportunity. It's very different from European or let's say Dutch markets that have very strong segmentation. So everybody only specialized in their own topic and they continue to do it for a long period, probably will continue to do it. But in China, because a lot of things are pretty new, especially the contemporary art world, so they are experimenting everything at the same time. So every museum, every gallery is trying to experiment all kinds of things. They don't have so much limitations that I only do glass, or I only do new media, or I only do what. They don't have so much limitations. So you can actually try to just approach some of them to see if there is opportunity for you. So you react fast, you have to just be brave.
And sometimes the Chinese market also welcome crazy ideas. It's maybe less prudent than Europe because here we really have to look. the whole art history line and what is the meaning of your work? Do they really add value to the art history? Well in China because it's still a growing market and it's a new market so people are more I think welcoming crazy ideas. So if you are Hoffman, you can have your rubber duck swimming in Hongkong or Shanghai. So react fast and just be brave, try everything and have crazy ideas.
Mei: 31:58 – 32:17
Okay, yeah, it's so interesting. If we look at technology and the development of technology really had a significant impact on the art world and how we create art, how we look at art, and how do you see AI and VR shaping the future of art? Because you also do some projects in the VR field and now you can with AI, the disruptive disruption of AI and people can use the free tools to create beautiful artworks. How do you look? at this this development and the future of art.
Selena: 33:45 – 37:41
Yeah, I think, well, of course, AI and this new media will not only change art industry, it will actually change most of the industries we have, right? And for art, of course, every period in the history, every new significant change in technology will have deep impact in art. for example when the camera is invented then the whole art world also changed dramatically so I believe there will be a very deep revolutionary change in art world although I still believe we are still on the way too we are not there we are not there yet although we already started to use to experiment with the new media For example, we also had a project, Studio Tronics, which we actually work with a group of Dutch professionals and two Chinese members to also experiment and develop this AR tool.
So how do you create in the virtual plus real world, overlapped with real world? how you open your imagination through the new media's eye, through your phone, through your iPad. So we did a wonderful project. We also have still exhibitions, online exhibitions, together with it. But of course, we are still on the way to, I think, in the future, along with the development of those hardware. it will still have much bigger surprise in the future are waiting for us.
And of course AI will also deeply change everything. Actually AI already impact, for example, what we can see, what the first artwork we can see in your social media or in the website is actually defined by AI, because he will select what he think that fit you. that you would like that he wanted to promote. So actually AI is already affecting that. Only we don't see that clearly yet but I think in the future it will come more significant. That's how I see it. It's depending on how you look at it. It's not necessary to be a bad thing. It's actually the... I think it's the future you cannot... you cannot change the direction, you cannot change. Yeah.
Mei: 37:41 – 38:08
No. No, I think this disruptive technology will really have a huge impact. on our future in all kinds of fields, not only in art. And Selena, you also have a project space in Utrecht and you have online gallery. And could you please give us a brief introduction about those business fields of Oooit art?
Selena: 38:08 – 40:56
Yeah, we actually started the online gallery and the offline space, the actual space in Utrecht since corona period, because we couldn't have any museum exhibitions planned or any gallery, I mean galleries can also hardly open and I think for many great artists that there are lack of opportunities to really present their work and to make sales, to make living. So we think, although we have been helping galleries in the past years, but we have never really run a space ourselves. So we decided to open a space last year to really, we would call it still like a project space, so kind of gallery function. but we wanted to combine with our different international projects, so we make also exhibitions, sometimes not necessary for selling purpose, but also want to exchange and encourage talks.
We set up this space in the Vexpo I also got very much inspired by this area, that's why I started this space here. It used to be a train factory in Utrecht, because it's well located, it's connected to the Amsterdam Utrecht canal and also the railway connected to the south. And this location used to make a huge train. And now... the city, the city, it has changed to a totally creative area. So there are, I think, I don't know the exact figure, I think there are hundreds of designers, creative people, artists, advertising companies, creative companies, small IT companies, all kinds of entrepreneurs in the creative field, which is It's very exciting to visit, to see, and there are also kind of events in the area. So we want to be part of it and also give the link for locals to international art, to international creative industry. So we try to create that kind of local link, also create opportunities and platform for different artists. from our projects.
Mei: 40:56 – 41:31
Yeah, I visited your glasswork exhibition. It's so interesting see all kinds of glass art hanging at the project space and you shared such fascinating stories about all of those artists with me. It's so interesting. For people who want to visit the project space, they can find the information about the exhibitions online?
Selena: 41:31 – 42:46
Yeah, yeah. They can just book their entrance for free online. We open for every, from Wednesday to Saturday, by appointment, and we organize yearly, maybe a few times, really theme exhibition. But between all the exhibitions, people can just visit our... how to say permanent collection or long-term collection or running project presentations. So there are always something to see, but we do have themed exhibition.
For example, the coming exhibition we will organize for artist Richard Meitner, who has been leading the glass department for 20 years in the Rietveld Art Academy. His work has been also exhibited in 40-50 museums worldwide. So we created a theme for him to show his work here. But in the meantime we will also have an artist talk, actually some kind of debate, to talk about the challenges currently in this specific field.
Mei: 42:46 – 43:26
Okay, it sounds so interesting, when will that take place?
Selena:
Yeah, it will be in September for his program. Okay, so people will be able to watch it.
Mei:
Okay, September this year,
Selena:
Yeah,
Mei:
So people can find information on the website of all Oooit arts, I think. Great. Selena, you have been working for almost 20 years, I think, in the Netherlands. And how have you found working with Dutch people and in the Dutch business environment? And yeah, are there certain challenges for you? And how did you overcome those challenges?
Selena: 43:26 – 44:35
Well, the most impressive one, maybe you have to always plan ahead, right? Not like Chinese, you can always... Yeah, you can just enter. You can just quickly set up. But in the Netherlands, you have to plan everything very much ahead. That was the biggest challenge, because we Chinese always think very fast. So we want immediate reaction, of course. But that is in a little bit very difficult because people have very balanced private and business life. So they also actually cut their time into pieces. So you cannot mix up everything. So in a way if you want to do business or even if you want to share some private time with someone, you always have to cut your pieces to fit with their pieces. which means you have to, we say in the Netherlands, always pick up your gender and try to find a match. Yeah, that was the biggest culture shock.
Mei:
after all of these years, did you manage to get along with this challenge?
Selena: 45:18 – 45:30
Yes, yes, I have to. Yeah, I think it's actually, well, there are good side and bad side. On one hand, of course, you always feel stressful to everything planned very well and well organized. On the other hand, it also gives yourself some rest if you have everything already planned. And also you don't have so much interruption by suddenly happened things. So that also gives some rest in your life. and you have your private life very well protected.
Mei:
Yeah, yeah. And I'm just curious, Selena. What are some of the key differences, and especially also similarities, do you think, between Chinese and Dutch cultures?
Selena:
Similarities would be more difficult than finding differences. I think there are, well, this is also almost a book, but I try to find some point. I think the biggest differences between the culture will start from the individualism and the collective culture. That actually explains a lot of facts you see the cultural difference, like one site you... you maybe more take care of your private time, private life, and the other side of the world, you can easily be asked to work overtime. And so you sacrifice to the society and this side you protect your own private interest.
That can explain a lot. But I think the other culture route, if we look at the history or religious way is I think European culture are very for long period influenced by the Christian culture which Which is kind of you always try to convince others about your own opinion while the Asian or Chinese culture are influenced a bit by Buddhism which means you still very much looking at yourself what you did wrong or right, and you don't always try to express yourself and tell your own opinions. So yeah, that actually caused that on one side they don't try to express and nobody understands you, the other side they always try to persuade you to get their point. So sometimes the communication can be difficult. So I think for Eastern people, we should know the way how to more express yourself, give your opinion. And for Western, maybe should learn more, listen and try to understand the reason behind that opinion.
Mei: 47:43 – 48:00
Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for sharing this. And based on your working experience between two countries, what kind of tips and advices can you give to people who want to do business in China, want to be successful in China.
Selena: 48:00 – 48:54
First of all, make a friend. That's everything. I think friendship is very important, not only about network, that practical reason. I think that's also... because we Chinese really take friendship very seriously. You can always bother your friend and you can always find your friend. That's very different. So I think that would be always very helpful. So don't call, don't email, just use WeChat. Yes, that's everything. You can pay with it, you can do business with it, you can set up a group chat and you can just instantly find someone. Yeah, that's maybe very practical.
Mei: 48:54 – 49:15
Yeah, also it's a very important medium for communicating and doing business with China. WeChat is all-in-one platform. And thank you so much, Selena, for taking... for taking the time to speak with me today. And before we wrap up, is there anything else you would like to share with the listeners that I didn't ask?
Selena: 49:15 – 49:51
Yeah, well, welcome to our space to have a look. And yeah, and for the rest, I hope you success with your program. And I really appreciate more Chinese take steps to work out, to tell our opinions, to tell more about our culture. and to encourage the Dutch or other international people to share their opinions together. Thank you very much.
Mei: 49:51 – 50:55
Yes, thank you. And how can people connect with you and find more information about Oooit art and all kinds of projects you are doing?
Selena:
You can always visit our website www.oooitart.com and oooit is with three o's and then IT, so o-o-o-i-t, art.com and we have also our Instagram, also oooit.art. You can always follow us.
Mei:
Okay, so people can follow you also on Instagram. I will put the information of Oooit Art and the Instagram link in the podcast show notes. So for the people who want to connect with Selena or find more information about Oooit Art, please go to find the information in the podcast show notes. Thank you, Selena.
Selena:
Thank you so much.