Mei (00:00 – 00:17 )
Hi, welcome to my podcast. I'm so glad to have you on my podcast.
Ann Zhang
Hi Mei, thanks for having me here.
Mei
Yeah, it's so nice to talk to you. And first, could you please give us a brief introduction about yourself?
Ann Zhang (00:17 – 01:13 )
Okay, my name is Anne, is my original Chinese name. I was born and grew up in China, and I already worked over 25 years, so you might already know how old I am. I'm currently still studying at Wageningen University in Iceland to pursue a new master degree in Biobased Science.
And previously I worked for WWF World Wild Foundation and some other organizations for the conservation project. And before that I actually worked in business world for multi-national companies in petrochemical, life science and later I moved to the investment consultancy in China. That's my career background. Yes.
Mei (01:13 – 01:51)
Thank you Anne. And we met each other during a session organized by Yan Liu. And you met each other during your time at the THNK School of Creative Leadership Program in the Netherlands in 2015. And I understood from you and also from Yan, I interviewed her also for my podcast that this program had great greatly impacted your personal and professional development. Could you please share a little bit about how this program has impacted your life?
Ann Zhang (01:51 – 05:45)
Yeah, yes, actually, this is my second time to study in Netherlands. And 2015, as you mentioned, I studied in Amsterdam, a school called the Creative Leadership School in Amsterdam, THNK, THNK. We call it think without I. Yeah, that's an unforgettable experience for me. There I met with Yan and other many great friends there.
In general, I would say that is actually only half year program and it's like executive study. We fly to Amsterdam every month and gather together there for about two weeks. The course is very intensive starting from seven o'clock in the morning until finish that 10 o'clock. It's not a conventional learning course like in the universities. It's a, in many ways I would say it's novic and it's very creative. We don't have any teacher, we only have the facilitators, which guide us to have that peer to peer learning and a lot of topics, but mainly it's a consists of three modules.
One module is developing your leadership skill. The other one is to know yourself, pursue yourself in a side. I would say that's the most important part for most of our participants. We would like to agree. And the third part is a project which consists of three of the team members. We work together. We pick up our favorite topic through one of the recommended topics by the school. In our team, we pick up when it's relating to as a sharing economy.
At that time, Amsterdam city is going to exploring opportunities for this economy, sharing economy. So they also support and sponsor this program. So that's our programs. So this consists of these three pillars of that program. Yeah.
At the, at that time, I didn't realize or recognize what will happen after that, you never know. But before I enter enrolled in this program, I already heard many previous participants to say that this program completely changed their whole life. I just feel like that time, I feel like it's a bit of an exaggerating. I couldn't believe that. But now I would say it's in some sense, the program, I think it did reshape my future until now. That might be also one of the reason why I come back to Netherlands, pursue my academic skills further. I would say it's also I get some enabled by the power from that program from THNK. Yes, that's a yeah.
Mei (05:45 – 06:38 )
Yeah, it's so great to hear about this because in the interview with Yan, she also shared how this program really impacts her life. And I can see that both of you and after this program you all started to explore the social aspect of our career. Who am I? What do I want to contribute to the society?
After this program, you went back to China in Suzhou and you set up an X school in Suzhou, China. And you also integrated some of the learnings you got from the THNK. Could you please share with us about the concept of X school and your experience?
Ann Zhang (06:38 – 13:49)
So the idea is originally I'll fly back to China because I want to continue my consultancy business but more focused on the sustainability development areas.
And then that time I discussed with Yan maybe we can found a school in China cooperate with THNK similar kind of school even it's a part-time business for us. So we tries but in some way we couldn't really make it as an original plan. It's not formally launched that kind of a startup project. No, it doesn't that way. So I'm more back to my routine job. I have the consultancy programs with other international conservation organization. That's my, this full-time job there. And at the same time, I was wondering perhaps in a way, in the part-time, I can create something just to try to introduce the learning model from THNK. And also because I personally, I feel like I really get benefits a lot from THNK, especially it's open your mind, open your heart to connect the words. I think that's very much important.
And also I see a lot of people, a lot of friends, similar in my age. Now it's in the transition time period for their midlife. So I kind of believe maybe create something, connecting the people together. And also the other way is I also would like to exploring some secrets behind the THNK, why they make it so successful, so attractive for the participants. I heard of they're using some different learning models, and also I would like to explore more about those models.
So combined with these two kind of motivations, I developed the first programming in Suzhou that's starting from 2016. And at that time I just invited six people to form a small, we call it a learning group in Suzhou. And we started every two weeks on the weekend. And we, I think that the first time we introduced a program from edX, an online program talking about ULab, a series of U from MIT. And we're following the flow of that program. And also, I combined some coaching skills programs also with the to discuss with a group of participants. So that's how we started this, later we call it X school. That time we just call ourselves one of the U-Hubs learning group.
And the next year more people joined because it's a kind of, it's a mouse of words and people get to know about this kind of learning group because at that time in 2016 until now in China, especially in the first and second tier cities, there are so many that kind of creative learning groups. People try to continue their learning in the part-time, even they're busy, mostly they're the professional people. So in that kind of very lively atmosphere for learning in Suzhou. We are only one of the small learning group, but I would say we might be in some very unique position that will attract more people to join want to join us and very soon it expands to that time it's around 30 people.
Some participants routinely, but some are just in their free time to listen to what we're watching, what we are doing. Yes, and also I imported some of the games from the THNK, which is my favorite part, what I learned from the THNK. A lot of games we play together, body and body games. That's very fun because as adults, you almost forgot how to play and to play for fun. Yeah, I think that's also one of the important elements of why our participants really favor about our learning group.
And later I think we, not only me, together with other participants, we always co-created a lot of ideas. And we think this small group already benefits for each other, we support each other, we create a worry, a safe field which we can really share our fear, share many things even we wouldn't like to share with families, but we can share within this small group. I think everyone feel like we get the benefits and we get the power and enabled to exploring more about ourselves through this learning group. So we're trying to build some model maybe after that.
Mei (13:49 – 14:51 )
I read some articles about this ex-school in Chinese. I discovered actually a lot of participants and they are quite very successful people in China and they have achieved a very, quite a high level of success. But at a certain age, just like you said, after you accumulated certain experience in your career, and reached a certain age, you started to engage in a kind of introspection and seek a very deep sense of purpose. I think this is so fascinating. Do you also discover some stories of people who participated in the activities of ex-school, who really changed their life or found the purpose to do other things than they have thought before.
Ann Zhang (14:51 – 25:02)
Yeah, we do have the kind of stories. Yes, as I said, we're trying to form a kind of concept or model, which we call the butterfly model for this X school, because I already see from our experience for this learning experience up to three to four years.
It's really helped people transform themselves from mind, from heart. I also feel amazing because it's completely unexpected. So I'll give an example. One of my neighbors and also a good friend, she used to be a housewife. And also, of course, she have a job in his family company as an account. And when I first time met her, I feel like she have some potential energy, but it just the hidden, he doesn't really aware. And she's kept on saying she's satisfied with her current life taking care of her husband and her son. It's already her son already in high school, actually already a grown up kid. And she enjoyed every day cooking and making some scenes meaningful for families. But on the outside, I feel like she has some disappointed.
I don't know how to describe it from his eyes. When she said that she is satisfied with her life. And one day when we have a walk together, when we get more each other more familiar, she told me she actually also have concern about her husband's business, the company, but she's more concerned about those people, the employees who work for them in that company because their company is a kind of a conventional manufacturer in China SMEs and now since 2017 business is went down and they are struggling actually every day with their survival and she said she really care about how to make those people can work with them for a long time and how to make them happier. I was moved so much after I heard what she said. And then I decided I have to invite her to our group, the learning group, because that time, this group has some characters. It's like we are mostly professional people working in some multinational company have been more familiar with foreign cultures, can speak English very well, and also positioning maybe in the middle to a higher senior position in a company. So that's most of the participants' background.
But she's kind of different. She's not getting her not have the college or university degree education and she's working in a private SMEs. So quite different from others. So first time when I mentioned to other participants, my friends, shall we invite her to our group? Some of them are hesitated. But later when I decide, I still trying to invite her to our group because I kind of believe for X school we share to form a more diversity culture. We need different people from different areas, industries and backgrounds and to learn each other.
So then she joined. At the beginning she also not feel comfortable in this group, even though we already get to, we already develop some culture like it's open, very open-minded atmosphere and it's safe. We respect each other, we listen to each other and also most of the people have the coaching skill so we know how to treat others and how to support each other, but still she's not feeling too much comfortable at the beginning, but later by later, she really get involved.
And I think her transformation is also happened during that time, after half year or I forgot, maybe less than one year. One day when we have that peer-to-peer coaching process, she said she would like to share her story. That's the first time. She's very proactively, not only listen to others, but proactively stand up. And to say, I would like to share my story. And she told us her story in her young age after graduate. She actually got some, how to say, unexpected event, issues which eventually hurt her hand and one of her hands. She lost most of her fingers. So that really changed her life, later in her life. But even she has beloved husband, a very kind of a family, a lovely family.
But she has that kind of a feeling. She wouldn't like to let people know she's disabled when her hand, she is trying always to hide that hand. I think it's also the consequence mentally or psychologically that also affect her behaviors. She trying to be more humble. She's really humble, but maybe also she's quiet normally, unless she's really know you or she can speak to you. I think it's also part of the reason for that kind of unlucky events. So, but anyway, she shared this story and she said, with us she felt like she can feel like the energy and the power and she told us after telling the stories and I still remember she cried a lot and we kept quiet but we just we don't say too much to her but we just be with her together. I think that's very much important to be supportive part of her in that time. And we just let things went on until she becomes calm full.
And after that, since happened gradually step by step and when they, she told me she's considered because the previously general manager left to find some other job, and the lack of directors in their company and her husband is more focusing on connecting the networks with other, their customers and partners. And she asked me if she can handle that position as a general manager in their company. And I forgot how I response her, but I...
I guess I definitely support her idea and encourage her. And later she took that position. And she discuss quite often with me and also with other group members because some of them are also the general manager in more bigger foreign companies. So she got a lot of also experience, guidance.
advices from the group. And I really see she grows up since then. Yeah, that's kind of the stories about her. And I also can see now if you met her, her eyes was shining, yeah, with the light. And she's so confident. You can never tell several years ago. Four years ago, first time I met her. Was a humble, small, shrinked lady. But now it's completely changed, yeah.
Mei (25:02 – 25:51)
What a transformation and it's so I think so fulfilling to see such an initiative Can transform somebody and can impact somebody's life in such a beautiful way. Thank you so much for sharing this beautiful story.
Ann, you are very deeply involved in sustainability in China. You also initiated a project in the field of sustainable agriculture. A few years ago you made some beautiful, really beautiful films and short interviews with people to share what's going on in China. And could you please share some insights?
Ann Zhang (25:51 – 36:06)
Maybe I can combine my current ongoing project and work together with a few years previous experience together to see something. Because now I'm more focused on the bio-based economy, bio-based industries between Europe and China market. And I maybe have more kind of a profound insights in that field. Your question first, I, in general, created another startup project since 2020. Just during that pandemic time, together with another partner in China, we create a small business based on the community-supported agriculture. The idea, partly because when I work I read some reports and many mention about the water pollution. We have a lot of big issues in Taihu basins in China, east of China. Taihu is the largest basin there.
Most of the polluted elements, the reason comes from agriculture, from pesticides, from those chemicals we use for agriculture. So that's how I got some ideas about where the pollution comes from. And later I got to know through different projects, I got to know some friends who are really engaged in organic agriculture, or even they call it regenerative agriculture in China, in a very small scale, not a big company. In a small scale, they're doing a lot of experiments in that field. And I also heard from them, most the challenges for them, it's not growing those really, it's a healthy product. But the challenge for them is how to sell out in the market and to let more people know in this kind of a different product because those apples, rice, vegetables are not only tasty because they grow up slowly, organically, it's of course tasty, more tasty, but they are also very much important for our soils, for our environment in future. I think the latter reason is more moved me, touched me to move into that sector.
And during the pandemic, I'm quite free. I don't have any other project to take, to handle. And so I think why not to create something and help them to promote their business, promote their minds, their ideas, protect the environment through growing organic and eco-products, agricultural products. So that's how we come up with that. We call it a Springfield programs in Suzhou.
And later we have online shops, we have physical shops you can visit and you can buy those products. I developed around eight to nine different eco-farms among the whole China. Some are far, some are close. For vegetables, we pick up only two farms vegetable and rice because those are need more close to the consumers. And for some very rarely very local product agricultural product like the honeys we I find it in a very remote mountain area where we know that Qinglin, it's a hometown of panda. Yeah we visited that place and connected with the local provider, the farmers, and also those small organizations who promote and support the farmers to maintain the very conventional traditional ways to get the honey. They also take care of the bees at the time, not only to get out the honey.
So we find those are kind of interesting and touching stories. Then we film it, we promote their stories through our channels and letting more people to get to know that. So that's kind of roughly about that. That's the background of this program, Springfield.
What I learned. From that, firstly, I think I can really see . In China, it's like small flair fire everywhere in n China you can see a lot of people now having the conscience to protect the environment and they know the way how we can really try to achieve the goal like using the eco more eco-friendly way to treat the soil to grow the agricultural products. That kind of what I involved in that especially many of them are the young generations, young peoples. That I, the first thing I find many of those things happened in China. A lot of people are engaged. (30:50 – 31:33)
And second is it's still a very unmature market. Let's talk about market. Even people like me and many of my friends, we highly support those eco-product. But still, of course, in terms of the market price, it's not so competitive, it's still two or three times higher than the conventional agriculture products. I think this market is still growing and people also need to be educated with the conscience because I would say it's some people argue it's only those rich people, affordable families, affluent families they can really access to those organic foods. This is kind of their privilege. I wouldn't really agree with that point. Because if you compare with other daily use goods or stuff you consume, food is actually only very small portion for most of the Chinese urban families. It's now, the terminology is a genius. Genius figure is very low also for most of Chinese middle class families. So it's about your concept, your conscious, see your consume.
You can consume, you can spend, let's say, 300 RMB with friend for one meal and the left half, you can't eat up all and you just left there for one meal and you go to the restaurant quite often. I mean, for those, I just describe a background vision for the middle class Chinese family or young people in China. It's very often we go to the restaurant, we spend three to 500 every time for a meal. And we left a lot there. We don't think it's expensive, but if you spend, let's say 10RB to buy one kilogram of green vegetable bok choy from market. And compare with the conventional one, conventional one is only three yuan in the supermarket. You think it's so expensive. But then, I feel like it's kind of, when you realize that you can compare which one is more expensive. The expense in the restaurant very often throw away those wasted food there or you just spend a few more yuan on this to buy very healthy good vegetables and cook it at home with your family or with friends. So which one is better? I think that really depends on your mindset.
Mei (36:06 – 36:49)
Yeah, it's very interesting and the consciousness is really the starting point. If you get conscious about your own behaviour, then you can change it and to make conscious choices. Ane you are studying in Wageningen University in the Netherlands. Making this choice to come to study here is also originated from all of those experiences you accumulated in the past years. Could you please share with us why you made this decision to come to the Netherlands to follow the study after you have built your career in China in such a way?
Ann Zhang (36:49 – 41:09)
Yeah, like you just mentioned, I think because I already experimented and exploring different various of sustainability development projects in China in past, I'd say already six years. I then I having the kind of have the ideas, I think I need to be more focused on one industry, one sector, and more deeply profoundly to become the expert in that industry and to be engaged, dedicated my rest of my career's life in there. So starting from water stewardship project with WWF and with the European Water Storeship.
That's a starting point. And then I moved to the CSA agriculture field. There is one thing I'm not really feel comfortable. It's because my background, I have some disconnection with that field. Emotionally, I really like with CSA project. I really engaged emotionally. With that project, I really have a lot of fun, get to know a lot of friends there, and people also recognize as a meaningful project. But still, I don't, I lack of that educational background in agriculture and also in terms of the soil protection, all those kind of relatives' knowledges.
I think a little bit back to the water stewardship in the industrial field, I might be more kind of more professional or skillful in that region because my background is in organic chemistry. I was trained in a university like chemist and later I am more mastering the business development in a large scale project. And then I wonder maybe I need to combine my previously started background, educational background, and my strengths in the business development and really looking to in the future what fits me and what is, we need, let's say in China, we need to develop in a sustainability development way.
And then I found in Wageningen, they have that a bio-based science program, master programs, which really fits me well, because the people they describe should have some three kind of background. When it's better you have organic, you have a chemical education background, the chemistry background. And then you know the cross culture and you know the business, how to do the business, how to develop it. And then you have the passion in the sustainability. I think I really fit with those requirement. And also I think I, I now, till now, I quite believe I choose the, I make the very right decision to come here for this project. And luckily now I cooperate to work with NOVA Institute, the most reputable research institution in this bio-based and bio-economy industry in Europe. And then I feel like I find a team and I be more powerful engaged in this field.
Mei (41:09 – 41:38)
Yeah, so you also feel you can with this knowledge base and you can make even greater impact and combined with your past experience. And it's, I think this study will empower you to do more for and to contribute to the sustainability. Thank you Anne so much for sharing your stories!
I would like to ask you whether you can yeah based on your personal experience whether it's possible for you to share some tips or advices for people who want to do business in China and connect and engage with Chinese people.
Ann Zhang (41:38 – 43:56)
I would say, of course, firstly, the market intelligence is very much important. You should know the market very well before you enter this market. Want to do business there, you need to at least know something about like Chinese culture, the history of how Chinese developed themselves till now. And what is kind of personality characters in common sense Chinese are. And you know something, the basic fundamental things about China before you come. Then because based on that, you can really maybe develop a mutual relationship with your counterparts in China. So I would say market intelligence plus culture, local culture is knowing that is important.
And then I think to open your mind and truly to find a partner and showing your sincerely kind of intention, you want to build up the relationship and doing the business. That's very much important. I think people are all the same in the world, no matter who they are, which country, which nation they belong. So we share a lot of common grounds. So in that sense, I think honesty, integrity is very much important. Chinese highly appreciate that kind of characters.
And also, of course, I think you need to find the right time. Time is also important. to enter China market or doing business in China. So that's maybe three aspects I would like to share.
Mei (43:56 – 44:45)
Yeah, this great aspect indeed integrity and knowing the Chinese culture, know how to connect with Chinese people. This is really where we can start, because if you build the connections and build good relationships with local people, with your counterpart, and they will support you finding the right partners, to finding the right people to talk with. And this is a very important step.
And thank you so much for sharing your stories and your journey until today. And thank you for sharing the very valuable insights with us. And thank you. And I enjoyed talking to you. Thank you.
Ann Zhang
I did so, thank you also.