Mei
Hi, good morning, Lianne. Welcome to my podcast!
Lianne Baaij
Yeah, I really enjoy being here and I think it's an honor really to participate in this series.
Mei
Thank you. This is maybe for listeners, this is a special series. In the coming weeks, I'm going to interview five guests from Association Netherlands China. So you are my first guest.
And could you please give our listeners a brief introduction about yourself, Lianne?
Lianne Baaij
Yeah, sure. My name is Lianne Bai. I'm 55 years old as of tomorrow. I'm a sinologist. So I studied Chinese way back in 1987. I started my studies in Maastricht, which was more like a translation academy. And then I followed my studies in Leiden University, where I did sinology. And as of my graduation, I went to work for several jobs, all of course having to do with China, amongst others being a sales manager at China Southern Airlines, but also being a PR manager in a travel agency, working in a translation agency as an employee.
And I founded my company China Access in 2004. So 20 years celebration next year, which is a training and translation and interpreting agency for China business.
Mei
What inspired you to engage with China and to learn Chinese language?
Lianne Baaij
Yeah, I think I fell in love with Chinese culture at a young age. I think I was like 17 years old or something, and I decorated my room with Chinese calendars and things from the Toko. And it really triggered me, the characters, all the cultural outings. So knowing that I like this so much, I joined a course on television. It was called Ni Hao.
I really liked that course a lot. And after that, I decided, okay, this triggers me so much, I want to make it my studies. And my father then said, because it was like 1988 or 1986, sorry, so my father said, how are you going to earn your money? And fortunately, my mother said, just follow your heart, that will come around. So yeah, I'm happy I did. I decided to study Chinese because following that amazing country from the 80s is quite a privilege I think.
Mei
And you followed your heart and you went to study the Chinese language, then you went to China. And you accompanied all kinds of people, entrepreneurs, and people from government to China, and you did many high-level interpretation sessions. You are a very professional interpreter, especially when you started your own company, and this is one of your main services. And I'm just curious what makes a good interpreter?
Lianne Baaij
Being an interpreter needs skills. Of course, you need to be fluent in your language, but you need to be skilled to do the interpretation job. Because I know many people who speak maybe better Chinese than me, but are not as good in interpreting, because you have to develop a kind of a highway between the two languages in your head, so that you can really quickly transpose. So this craftsmanship, I would say, you need to develop.
Of course you need to prepare yourself really well because you get into all kinds of industries, going from filters to the court, to slaughterhouses. Well, it goes all about all different areas, so you need to prepare for the vocabulary.
And I think the last, most important ingredient in my case, I think, is trying to be empathetic. So understand really, not only the words, but also the agenda behind it and maybe even the feelings behind the message of the person that you interpret for, so that you can also bring across more than just words, but also more like emotional inputs.
Mei
Yeah, brilliant. I think what you just said is really so important. You must be able to feel the message behind the words. And I think that makes the interpretation even more powerful. It's not just translating the words. It's also transmitting the emotions and connections. You are helping people to make this deep connection so they can build relationships and do business together. That’s so important. Thanks you for sharing that!
I'm just curious how people, how companies can really prepare themselves, can work closely together with you before the interpretation session to make this session even more successful.
Lianne Baaij
Yeah, I'm very happy that you addressed this point because being an interpreter sometimes to a customer is just a secondary thing. Oh yeah, of course, we also need an interpreter, let's book an interpreter and that'll do the job, but that's not the case. You really need to involve this interpreter in the briefing and as an interpreter you need to be proactive to get all the information you have and be on the same page as the person you work for.
So, yeah, as an example, sometimes people call me and I'd like to, they ask me to do a bad news conversations toward the supplier, for instance, because quality was off track. But then I always first have a conversation with the customer to see what happened before. And then sometimes you find out that the person's even didn't even meet before, didn't see eye to eye or not through Zoom. It was just a very cold relationship. And then there's a risk if you jump in with a bad news conversation that this contact will be harmed. So in that case, I tried to take a step back and let's see, maybe we can first have a more like a chit chat or a more soft content encounter with a counterpart as an example. So I really try to think along in the process that they're in. And I really, yeah, sometimes I'm a pain in the ass to get the materials that I need to translate like the PPTs or the speaking notes. And yeah, because without good preparation, you cannot do the job well.
Mei
During all of those years with China Access, you went to China with all kinds of delegations, also business delegations, also government delegations. Do you feel a huge difference as an interpreter to interpret such kind of sessions?
Lianne Baaij
Yeah, for government there's more status and face involved, so it's more, yeah, protocols are more important and giving the right gift is important and addressing it very diplomatically is more important. Yeah, addressing the right person being on the same level is more important. So yeah, there is a difference, I think, in that aspect, because mostly when I did the government delegations from a vocabulary point of view, it was not really difficult. It was just explaining the status of the region and addressing some issues. And so no technical or. yeah, heart specialist, specialized words, but it's the tone of voice that was important to bring across.
Yeah, and also to not feel overwhelmed by the welcome and the hospitality of the Chinese in these big halls and the thrones that they have in these big halls and all the press being there and the line up, well, you know, I think the government sessions, how they are. And as an interpreter, you go and sit behind the flowers, which are placed between the two thrones. It's quite a different setting also and the setting and the pressure of doing this for quite high level persons, I mean ministers or governors, yeah, they really have power. So this stress is, yeah, you must be able to handle. Yeah.
Mei
Yeah, I can imagine. I can imagine that you must have much better emotional management and to be and to stay calm with such a lot of eyes looking at you and focused on you and your words. At China excess, you also help a lot of companies translate a lot of documents. Chinese characters, they are so different and so difficult to learn. How can you learn Chinese characters effectively?
Lianne Baaij
Yeah, I of course learned it old school because we were in the 80s at that time. So no apps and so I made my own flashcards on paper, you know. But I think learning Chinese the first two months maybe are amazingly difficult because everything is new, all the sounds, the characters, the tones. I remember learning Chinese, I had like a muscle ache in my cheeks because of all the sounds I had to practice.
But also you get to see the system behind the characters, so that makes it easier to learn. And the tones you get familiarized with. Once you have mastered these three elements quite well, so the pronunciation actually, and then the system behind the characters, then it's not that difficult anymore because grammar is really simple. It's not challenging at all. And it's just a matter of repeating and rehearsing and mastering your vocabulary.
Yeah, it's a lot of work, but it's not difficult. I remember I had these flashcards. The ones I knew were in my right pocket, and the ones that I always forgot were in my the other way around pocket. And then at the bus stop or over lunch or whatever, that moment, I just. repeated these difficult characters again until they were in the right pocket again.
Don't be afraid to use it, because once you have only a basic level of Chinese, you can already say things and practice as much as possible and don't be afraid to make mistakes.
Mei
Yeah, this is such a great point, I think, Lianne, because I learned Dutch, and for me, just...
Lianne Baaij
Yeah, an excellent job you did there.
Mei
Thank you, thank you. But this is the essential part, I think, of learning second language. You must be... you must dare to use it, because only by using it and practicing it, just shamelessly and forget about your ego, everything, just to make mistake and try to use it, then you will get better and better. Only by doing that, you will get better because only by reading and just by listening, you will never build that proficiency of the language only by using it, I think.
Lianne Baaij
Yeah, and you'll be amazed by the response because people are always happy that you use their language. It's an investment. Yeah, and you invest in their language. They really appreciate that. Yeah.
Mei
By learning Chinese, by grasping the Chinese language and be able to communicate with Chinese people, does this process really enrich your understanding of Chinese people, Chinese culture, and in what kind of ways?
Lianne Baaij
Going into a society or into a country, yeah, from inside out really, because you master the language, is, yeah, you get deeper into the understanding of the people and the culture. You can read Chinese sources, so I don't only read what's in our newspapers, but I can also see what the Chinese read also in these difficult times. Geopolitical speaking, but also on a personal level, it's so much easier to really come to the heart when you can let people speak in their own languages. And that's why interpretation is such a valuable job, because they can really express themselves in their own language and then express themselves better than they could have in English. And yeah, making that bridge is something real nice.
Mei
You also give a lot of intercultural training. And what kind of challenges they mostly have when they come to ask for your help, Lianne, please give us intercultural training because we are struggling with this and that, and what kind of struggles they have?
Lianne Baaij
We always do an intake before we design the training, let's say. And it all comes down, no matter what industries they are, it all comes down to the same components. So we do tailor our trainings, but the basic content is really to explain to Dutch people how Chinese mindset works.
But for Chinese it's really natural to be agile and adapt to changes and be quick and go back one step or jump ahead three steps. You know, this is a flexible way of moving in processes. Yeah, that's something, it's not in our DNA. We are linear thinkers. We have structures. We have plans. And that's something that doesn't match real well.
And also, yeah, the speed of things in China that the Dutch people don't really, yeah, cope with real well. Yeah, they are careful. They want to analyze and they want to think through every step on the way. Whereas in China you just start. The speed of things, you have to go along with. Otherwise you miss the boat in China. And sometimes the Dutch people who are working with China, they know and they are able to adapt in a sense, but their whole team of colleagues and their bosses, they don't understand. And you have to have backup from your internal organization, of course, and that sometimes also is a struggle.
Mei
Yeah, those cultural differences can really cause a lot of conflicts and problems for organizations to work with China. You gave not only the in-company sessions intercultural training, but you also created an e-learning together with Lilian. Could you please give some introduction about the China trainers and your eLearning program?
Lianne Baaij
The China Trainers was born over COVID, where we could not do live trainings. So Lillian Kranenberg and me, we sat down and what we would do in front of a group, we just created an e-learning from that. So small e-learning of half an hour to understand the yes and no issue in China, or reading between the lines, these communication issues, half hours e-learning, or bigger to understand the historical perspective of China, that's two and a half hours, or the philosophers, which philosophers made the mindset, created the mindset of China, to really understand the root of it all.
So all kinds of business culture related e-learnings we did in front of a green screen and you know this whole procedure. So we have a nice set of e-learning to learn certain issues online and we also do the webinars. So we have fixed dates on which we do one hour webinars. also on business culture. It helped us come through COVID, but it also helped us to cut up issues, to isolate issues and then go into these issues in more depth.
Mei
I think this is also a very flexible way for companies, for employees, to get to know about the cultural background and how to do business with China. And you and Lilian have really explained many aspects of doing business in China, the history and everything. What kind of people can really benefit from this e-learning, if you look at the Dutch companies or organizations?
Lianne Baaij
Yeah, I would say mostly the business people, of course, because we address it from a business point of view. The practices and examples that we raise are also from a business angle. And then medium, small sized entrepreneurs, from that aspect, but also professionals working in a Dutch-Chinese working environment, preparing for your trip, preparing for a long stay, preparing for your cooperation with your counterparts or doing a strategic decision. Yeah, all these steps and purposes.
Mei
Thank you! It sounds really interesting. So people can find all of the information on the China trainers dot nl or dot com?
Lianne Baaij
www.thechinatrainers.com.
Mei
Okay. So people can go to the China trainers.com to find all of the information. I will put the link in the show notes so people can find it also there.
I also want to mention another project, which is also very fascinating. And I want to explore that project with you. It's your Dutch cultural challenge game and the Chinese cultural challenge game. You also created this game together with Lillian and other two people. And yeah, I'm a really a game player. So I love games. So I'm just curious. Why did you decide to create this game? And how does a game work?
Lianne Baaij
Yeah, we have a team of four female entrepreneurs. So me, Lillian Kranenberg, as you said, and Monique Groeneveld and Esther Janssen. We are all intercultural trainers specialized in China. And we were doing trainings for years and years in the old fashioned way with the PPTs and exercises and discussion and role play, all the elements you have there.
But we thought creating a training in which you really can experience doing the business more along the lines of Confucius saying learn by doing, you know. I always forget the exact expressions, but I do and I understand is the last bit of his expression.
That's a very good way of learning another culture. So we designed the China Culture Challenge and the Dutch Culture Challenge as a gamified training. So people go into teams. They play three rounds.
Each round starts off with a small lecture, like 20 minutes lecture, to give them the input and the knowledge that they would need to do exercises or to solve a business case, or win a quiz or do a battle, all kinds of ways of testing that knowledge.
And by doing these assignments well, they earn money. And with the money they can buy building blocks. And at the end of the training, who has the highest skyscraper with all these building blocks is the winner. But in between there are all kinds of game changing elements like with Monopoly you have a “Algemeen Fonds”.(Dutch, in English The General Fund) I don't know how is that in English, but you have these game changing cards. So we also have that there can be a government interference where you lose all your money all of a sudden or there's a tax new rule. China can imply all of a sudden new rules and then you have to have some room to adapt to that. And some teams they just spent all their money on these building blocks and then they get this game changing element and then oh they have to sell their building blocks again to adapt to that.
So yeah, it's quite a vivid and fun game. And yeah, all the elements, the lectures and the assignments and the game changing elements, they are all based on real life. We take them from business practices. So in that way, they are more into this world, I think, of doing business with China. Yeah. And it's fun.
Mei
Yeah, it sounds really fun and interactive and immersive as well. So, people can find information about those games on your website or a separate website?
Lianne Baaij
Also, yeah, but we also have our own dedicated website, the Dutch Culture Challenge and the chinaculturechallenge.com, yeah.
Mei
Okay, so the Dutch Culture Challenge and Chinaculturechallenge.com. This will be added in the show notes. And Lianne, just as I mentioned in the beginning, this is a series of the members who are involved with VNC, the Association Netherlands China. I want to ask you some questions about your role at VNC and why you started to play a very active role at VNC. What's your why behind this decision?
Lianne Baaij
Yeah, there was COVID, there was no work. There was room to do things I normally wouldn't do because there was no delegations coming, no translations. Well, not nothing, but it went down to 30%, so I had a lot of time available.
And at the same time, VNC, I address it as VNC, Vereniging Nederland China, also changed their chair. And you've interviewed the new chair already, Monique Knapen. So you know yourself how an inspiring lady this is with all kinds of plans. And when I met her at some network, I got excited to help.
Because meanwhile, yeah, of course COVID widened the gap between the Netherlands and China and also the whole geopolitical situation was not improving the relationship. So there was less and less understanding and more and more negative sentiment towards China and also all the government relations that were stopped. All these signals that we were losing touch of each other, that were a motivation for me to jump in the VNC and do work that could improve this relationship and this understanding between the countries.
So yeah, I said to Monique, I'd like to join. Yeah, with me a lot of others. There was a whole new board, two consistent board members, which I'm really happy with too. But also fresh blood and fresh energy to revive actually, the VNC.
Mei
I think in the beginning of last year, I interviewed Monique. And so if people are interested, you can go back to find the podcast with Monique. And yeah, she has really a lot of ideas and all of you, the new board, you initiated a lot of new activities. And after this new integration, after you stepped into Fiancé, starting from, I think in this year, the China Cafe, which you initiated, how many years ago? 15 years ago?
Lianne Baaij
In 2007, yeah, 16 years ago.
Mei
Yeah, 16 years ago. China Cafe also integrated into the VNC activities. Could you please share something about China Cafe and the activities of VNC?
Lianne Baaij
Yeah, the China Cafe is celebrating its 16th anniversary, as we just calculated. And all this time it has been a platform or a meeting point, let's say, for people who are on a daily basis working professionally with China. At the moment we try to organise four China Cafes a year. In the past we had it every month, so we organize it regularly in order to bring these people together around one certain theme. We also have a speaker on that team, so next Monday, December 11, we will have John van de Water of NEXT Architects, who will talk about the real estate situation in China, which is
Yeah, a very important factor for the economy of China as a whole, to understand the whole bubble issue and all the struggles that the industry is facing, but also the opportunities who are still there. So we have each time another theme, and then we have an interview of this expert of half an hour, something like that. We don't try to make it that long and it's just on a bar seat and nothing really official. And then it's time to meet all the people that came and have a drink and yeah, talk about China and your issues with peers who have the same background. Yeah, that's what the China Cafe is about. So networking, but also knowledge sharing. But I'm a very low profile way, just put your jeans on and go.
Mei
Yeah, it's a very relaxed setting and you will meet a lot of, just like you said, China peers and who are also having the same struggle or challenges but also love China or doing business with China so you can find really a sound board.
Lianne Baaij
Yeah. And also meet Chinese people. Of course, there's always a large percentage of Chinese people present. More and more, I would say. So, yeah, it's a very nice setting to level with your peers, yes.
Mei
Before we wrap up the podcast, could you please share some practical advice and tips for people who want to do business in China, engage with Chinese people, and want to be successful?
Lianne Baaij
Yeah, I would say educate yourself, prepare yourself, and more important maybe also educate your team and your boss on the Chinese culture and the Chinese ways of doing things. And then especially I would say this changing, agile, flexible way of working is I think the biggest hindrance, and if you can find, I always say try to find a bandwidth, so a lot of flexibility, but not too much, because you also have your own structures and plans and all that. While talking to the Chinese, coming to this bandwidth is, I think, the best way to go forward, despite all the other cultural dimensional issues. But this is key.
And then also explain to your team, and make sure that you're backed up internally, that sometimes you have to make this big swing, in processes and sometimes you have to speed up matters at a crazy speed. So yeah, I think that would be my advice.
Mei
Your company China Access is almost, next year, almost 20 years. In 2004, you set up China Access and you have seen so many collaboration happen in all of these years and you have brought a lot of collaboration partners together, your knowledge and your experience are really very rich in this field. So thank you so much for coming to my podcast to share your knowledge and your insights with our listeners. Could you please tell our listeners how they can find you and how they can connect with you online?
Lianne Baaij
Well, you can visit my website, which is in www.china-access.nl or through the collaboration forums that I mentioned during the podcast, Chinaculturechallenge.com. And as for VNC, VNC-China.nl.
Mei
I will add all the all of the websites in the show notes so people can get in touch with you and I think you are also on LinkedIn.
Lianne Baaij
Yeah, I will give you my LinkedIn and WeChat of course. Yeah, thanks for the opportunity. And I think when we have this whole series of five VNC board members, you will have a more wide picture of what we do, but also what is important to work with China and what is fun to work with China. So thank you for the opportunity to make this series also.
Mei
You're welcome. Thank you so much. And I really enjoyed this great conversation with you.
Lianne Baaij
Likewise.